(cache) zenicaoneがOrban: "Non-democratic countries are more successful". Bear in mind that this person's party is still a member of the EPPについて記入したコメント

[–]Brtish/European CitizenLimitlessLTD 31 ポイント32 ポイント33 ポイント 2 日前 (1子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -5 ポイント-4 ポイント-3 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]Swedenxetal1 20 ポイント21 ポイント22 ポイント 2 日前 (8子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 2 日前 (7子コメント)

[–]Swedenxetal1 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 2 日前 (6子コメント)

[+]European Unionzenicaone スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント 2 日前 (5子コメント)

That's not what the discussion is about.

Original ? No but I was providing context to the original statement - this is discussion and discussions should not be limited - things should be viewed from as many aspects as possible in order to be understood and discussed

thus my argument "how much personal freedom is worth to you if you are homeless sick and hungry on a streets of Free society"

If you want to compare Europe and Saudi Arabia/Qatar only in limited terms of freedom , the discussion is non existent - In Europe you are almost free to say and be anything you want (depends from country to country which freedoms are somewhat limited) , while in Saudi Arabia and Qatar Freedoms are heavily limited - end of story

You suggested it is something to be envious about, from a European point of reference.

no I compared being average citizen of many/most European countries vs being citizen male and muslim in SA or Qatar

While you are not wrong about a person not being free if not able to provide himself, how is that relevant?

In a broader picture that I provided very relevant

If there is a choice between "basic necessities and freedom", then that isn't freedom,

this is the exact choice that most/many citizens are facing in real life , that is why provided broader context - if everyone in Europe would be able to live free of care for basic necessities , than discussion about "freedoms only" would make sense - now it does not

Could you name one measure of "freedom" in which Arabia has more than Europe?

explained above

[–]Swedenxetal1 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 2 日前 (4子コメント)

[+]European Unionzenicaone スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント 2 日前 (3子コメント)

Are you implying people are not able to provide for themselves in Europe? That people don't have the most basic necessities?

So we are about to open discussion about what basic necessities are , now ?

Fine - Living paycheck to paycheck is the reality for most people in Europe now

Must take credit for any large purchase , must take credit for car or house (both , not luxury but basic necessities) or live on rent, must avoid being sick because it will affect your living standard for at least some time if not permanently in case of more serious illness , reduce travel/holiday expenses to minimum if any , save a lot to be able to educate yourself (depending from country to country though) , earn extra of your free days in order to buy yourself something you really do not have money for but want, or work two jobs if you are on minimum wage

and similar things ...

Now these are the things that most citizens of Europe are facing on a daily basis (with some being better off and some being worse off - but this is the average)

Now All those issues mentioned above are non-existent for male muslim citizens of SA and Qatar

Minimum work a lot of free time , free education (all included no additional costs) , free health care (all included no additional costs) , food electricity water housing car ... bills almost to no issue , traveling not a problem will not affect anything in your life , sickens (no matter how bad) or pregnancy will affect nothing in your life etc etc etc

[–]Swedenxetal1 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 2 日前 (2子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 2 日前 (1子コメント)

That is an extremely unlikely claim, do you have any source to back that up?

I have several for USA More than two-thirds in U.S. live paycheck to paycheck: survey

Most Americans are one paycheck away from the street

Nearly Half of America Lives Paycheck-to-Paycheck

and some for Europe

Citizens in poor EU states can't afford medicines, health promoters say

40% of EU citizens can't afford a vacation

Now considering that when I say Europe I do not mean only Northern and some of Western Europe only, but Southern and Eastern Europe (not EU-only) also - I really doubt that situation is much better than in USA

That's usually how it works, if you want something and don't have money for it..

In Free Western Democracies ? Sure

In SA and Qatar ? Most certainly not

and by "if you want something and don't have money for it" - no I do not mean a Lamborghini or Ferrari (not everyone in SA or Qatar is driving these also-although many do) , but I mean something in range of 1000 to 2000 Euros (a high - quality quadcopter for example or something stupid like that)

[–]spacedout 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]No borders, no nations, fuck deportationsGunvorsejl 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 2 日前 (5子コメント)

[+]European Unionzenicaone スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9 ポイント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント 2 日前 (4子コメント)

Not if you oppose the government

Sure but why would you if everything is constructed to be in your favor (?)

or are gay or something.

sure but (afaik) you can not be gay and muslim at the same time - just like you can not be gay and catholic for example - so I was not talking about minorities (which are persecuted and oppressed there) I said

If you are male and muslim

If you keep your head down and fit their narrow definition of what a Muslim man is, then maybe.

again why would you have to keep your had down if everything is constructed to be in your favor

Still I wouldn't be envious, I like being able to work, study and party with women.

They can do all that and more - (regarding partying women -granted not in Saudi Arabia or Qatar, but they can afford quick flight to Turkey or Lebanon or even London if necessary, be there for the weekend and come back without worrying that cost/bill will affect anything in their lives)

[–]snobby EuropeanBigBadButterCat 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 2 日前 (3子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 2 日前 (2子コメント)

[–]snobby EuropeanBigBadButterCat 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 1 日前 (1子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 1 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]European Unionvsevolodovich[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 2 日前 (19子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -5 ポイント-4 ポイント-3 ポイント 2 日前 (18子コメント)

[–]Croatiajankisa 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 2 日前 (6子コメント)

[+]European Unionzenicaone スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 2 日前 (5子コメント)

well when you put it that way , sounds fine

but it is perfectly diferent picture if you look it the other way

for example

how much would you value your personal freedoms to say whatever you like - if you are homeless and hungry (homelessness and hunger not an issue for SA or Qatar citizens male or female)

how much would you value your personal freedoms to say whatever you like - if you are struggling to connect paycheck to paycheck to pay bills for food electricity water rent etc and you are sickness away from being dumped on the streets

how much would you value your personal freedoms to say whatever you like - if you can not stay pregnant because that would affect your ability to pay rent

how much would you value your personal freedoms to say whatever you like - if you can not educate yourself because you can not afford it

etc etc

those are the issues that average western citizen faces on a daily basis , while being gay and free to express yourself as gay , is an issue that minority of people in West is facing

[–]Jayrate 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 2 日前 (2子コメント)

[–]Ukraine0xnld 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]anarchism4thewin 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 1 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]Croatiajankisa 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]Jayrate 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 2 日前 (5子コメント)

[+]European Unionzenicaone スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 2 日前 (4子コメント)

[–]Jayrate 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 2 日前 (3子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 2 日前 (2子コメント)

[–]Jayrate 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 2 日前 (1子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]NorwayTheEndgame 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 2 日前 (1子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]European Unionvsevolodovich[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 2 日前 (1子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]snobby EuropeanBigBadButterCat 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]Estoniakalleluuja 13 ポイント14 ポイント15 ポイント 2 日前 (12子コメント)

[–]sob3k 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 1 日前 (0子コメント)

[+]European Unionzenicaone スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 2 日前 (10子コメント)

[–]Estoniakalleluuja 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 2 日前 (9子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -5 ポイント-4 ポイント-3 ポイント 2 日前 (8子コメント)

What I'm saying is that if I was a male there I wouldn't be happy.

well that is subjective but perfectly fine - I could find you many people who would say I would not be happy to live in USA for example - but that means nothing

we are talking in general terms here (average man who thinks about every aspect of life including personal freedoms and spanning to providing education , health care food , among other things on the table for his daughters or aged mothers)

So if we are to explore all aspects I presume you would (based on your statements) be more happier to see your daughters and mother being hungry and/or sick but "free" than living in countries where they never have to worry about being able to eat today , being sick and not treated because of lack of money , being unable to go to university because of lack of money etc but with some of their freedoms being limited ?

Subjective and personal opinions are irrelevant here - we are talking about average Joe in the West struggling to connect paycheck to paycheck

Also I did not mention here : mortgage/rent bills (not an issue in SA and Qatar - no homeless citizens there male/female) , banks taking over your house ...

would you think the same about importance of your personal freedoms if you were homeless in free society ?

Fate of my female relatives or all the rest of females would affect my happiness in negative way - not the way around as you suggest.

you are painting it as if females are being executed on daily bases there /facepalm - yes some of their (important) personal freedoms are limited but other than that they live fine life free of many worries that average Western woman has

[–]Estoniakalleluuja 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 2 日前 (7子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 2 日前 (3子コメント)

Well, I just don't think countries with limited freedoms are successful.

Personal opinion , but fine , - in general terms countries like China , India , Malaysia , Saudi Arabia , Gulf countries .... are considered to be very successful (raw economical data - not subjective opinion)

Success is freedom and the wealth in my book

absolutely - but how many countries can claim to have both (no homeless people, no hungry people, free education free health care .... plus all personal freedoms) ?

Very few - you could probably count them on fingers of one hand

So on a world scale it is usually choice between

Personal freedoms+not being able to connect paycheck to paycheck

vs

Personal freedoms limited+being free to live nice life free of existential worries

vs

Personal freedoms limited++not being able to connect paycheck to paycheck

Now out of three - which one would average Joe choose, if he was not among lucky few, that live several countries that provide both (Personal freedoms+being free to live nice life free of existential worries)

[–]Estoniakalleluuja 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 2 日前 (2子コメント)

[–]European Unionzenicaone -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 2 日前 (1子コメント)

People have different perception of success.

sure

In my opinion, if you are not free, you are not successful, period.

sure , in your opinion , nothing wrong with that

In other words, my subjective opinion does not match Orbans subjective opinion

sure people have differing opinions - Eureka (!?)

And "average joe" is not a objective opinion, just so you know.

? no average joe is most certainly not an opinion - it is an expression used when you want to say average citizen of some area

Average Joe is Average Citizen (if Joe is confusing for you)

your living standard might be higher than living standard of average citizen of Europe , thus your priorities are different than priorities of average citizen , mine could be also higher , but if we want to discus Objectively and with the contexts we must talk about priorities of average citizen in order to Be objective and not Subjective (if we were to discus things from our own perspective)

That is why I say Average Joe/Average Citizen

[–]Estoniakalleluuja -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]Russiasolz1 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 2 日前 (2子コメント)

[–]Estoniakalleluuja 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 2 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]United States of AmericaRPG720 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 1 日前 (0子コメント)

[–]bricardo 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 日前 (0子コメント)

europe

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