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Qatar 2022 and Blatter (self.soccer)

Switzerlandwowwhataswiss が 投稿

I keep seeing uninformed posts here regarding Qatar 2022 and Blatter.

Blatter was never for Qatar, he was for USA. The people responsible for Qatar (and Russia) are bin Hammam and Jack Warner. This is why Blatter is vocal about Qatar -- he was never for it.

Also, if you're not for Qatar 2022 because of human rights violations, then who do you think should host?

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[–]PortsmouthGospartan-PO12 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Can we be against it because they are moving a summer tournament to the winter and interrupting all the major leagues in the world, just because they decided to accept a bid from a place that is basically the surface of the sun during june and july?

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Yeah that's one thing I dislike about the 2022 WC.

[–]Boliviahuazzy 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Yeah that's one thing I dislike about the 2022 WC.

One of the many for me.

[–]iCollectNails -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

think he was joking

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

The annoying thing is he wasn't. Winter bad. Slave labour meh.

[–]PSV Eindhovensct02 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is something I do not mind actually. I think you exclude a lot of countries of potentially hosting the World Cup when you state it can only be held in summer. Sure, all major European leagues will have to adapt their schedules, but there are plenty of smaller leagues that cope with that right now.

[–]plays_wow_too_much 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The whole FIFA thing is a joke. A bunch of corrupt cronies electing each other and organising auctions to see who will pay the biggest bribe to host. Blatter will be president until he dies at which point another 70 year old will take over for the next 25 years. It's a fucking monarchy.

[–]Atlético MadridStingerc 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

it's not just FIFA, its all of football. Football is a dirty business, from clubs to FA's. FIFA is corrupt because the game is corrupt down to the the root. Sepp Blatter did not just magically appear and get his power out of thin air, he was put there by corrupt FA officials who vote for him. And trust me, the people who run against Blatter and actually have a chance, like Lennart Johansson, were just as bad, just a different type of bad, like treating South America as a pool of slave labor to serve European leagues.

As much as Americans like to bitch about Qatar and Blatter, they convinently ignore that their FA is just as crooked. Chuck Blazer is a prime example of it, the only reason he went down is because Warner got taken down by betraying Blatter. They also seem to forget the whole pay for play system that controls competition is a basically the lifeblood of the USSF, which basically helps exclude a whole sector of the population in favor of players who's family can afford to pay the exorbitant fees.

It's not just FIFA. FIFA just happens to be the most visible.

[–]SouthamptonFartacusTheSecond 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (46子コメント)

Also, if you're not for Qatar 2022 because of human rights violations, then who do you think should host?

Literally any country in the world where they respect Human Rights. There are plenty of them.

[–]Boliviahuazzy 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (35子コメント)

Playing devil's advocate: But the United States refuses to sign the United Nations' "Declaration of the Rights of the Child". It "supports protections for children from forced labor, child marriage, deprivation of a legal identity, and grants both able-bodied and disabled children the right to health care, education, and freedom of expression."

Only 3 UN countries haven't signed it. Somalia, South Sudan and... the United States.

So just fyi, for those that think other countries are the bastion for human rights.

Edit: My comment is not to argue the Human Rights track records between the US and Qatar (or anywhere for that matter). Instead it's to shed light on something I'm sure more of the readers here weren't aware of; that the U.S refuses to sign a basic Human Rights treaty.

As a couple posters mentioned below, their reasons could be in the language or how the US Government/support groups interpret the treaty. For example, there are very powerful groups in the U.S that believe the government has no right to educate "their" children on Sex education. So they see this treaty as a document that would interfere with that matter, so they're against it for that reason.

In other words, the concept of "Human Rights" is so complicated that it's a disservice to bring it up here. FIFA is not going to delve into the human rights records of Qatar or any host candidate. Sadly, FIFA is about $, and Qatar is where it's at.

This is similar to the outrage during the Olympics with Russia and their anti-gay laws (which by the way, oddly not many here seem to find a problem with considering the next WC is there). The IOC, FIFA, etc, are not going to get into the politics of a nation. They see $, ratings, and probably realize that once the whistle blows everyone is (sadly) quick to forget.

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (30子コメント)

USA would handle the world cup better and in a more ethical way. It just would and you know it

[–]Atlético MadridStingerc 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (29子コメント)

He's not arguing that the US would do a bad job, just that as far as the human rights argument, the US is far, far from perfect. Not a week goes by that you don't see a story about a police officer abusing his power and authorities refusing to do anything about it.

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (28子コメント)

No country is perfect in this regard, but the US is one I'd imagine would be able to execute it pretty well. I don't see how some police officers that abuse powers is in any way relevant

[–]BarcelonaiVarun -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (19子コメント)

I don't see how some police officers that abuse powers is in any way relevant

How is it not relevant to the question on Human rights.

It comes under the Abuse of power by the authorities and its a violation of legal and human rights.

Your first line was more accurate and apt

No country is perfect

and try to leave it at that instead of digging a hole for yourself with trying to engineer an argument which boils down to, Our shit stinks less than their shit.

No, it doesn't.

Which is why this is not used as a criteria for hosting such global events as Olympics and WC, because its childish and naive and most importantly impractical.

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (18子コメント)

I'm wondering how the police officer thing affects the world cup specifically, not just general human rights. Also, I think that Qatar's record for human rights is shit, and I'm saying the US is much better in this regard. This is not a lesser of 2 evils argument, I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying Qatar is the 'evil' and the US is a much much better location to host the world cup. The US's 'shit' doesn't stink, its one of the most developed countries in the world

[–]LibyaAlGamaty -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Give me a break. There is absolutely no way that the US has a better human rights record than Qatar. Not even close.

Murder of innocent civilians across the world through drone strikes.

Guantanamo

Spying across the world.

Police brutality

Etc etc etc

And how do you know that the US would organize the world cup better? I assume you've been following every detail of Qatars world cup preparations? Of course you haven't, so there is no way you can tell that the US would organize a better tournament. Qatar is actually pouring billions into this tournament, more than any host nation ever.

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Please tell me you're trolling

[–]LibyaAlGamaty -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I hope you're trolling if you're trying to say that killing thousands of innocent people by bombing them is worse than poor labor conditions.

[–]BarcelonaiVarun -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (12子コメント)

The thread chain context was to do with human rights across the board between countries, it was not just limited to WC in this comment chain. Which is police abuse is human rights abuse.

And anyone who uses the lines. XYZ's shit don't stink. Is as a matter of fact full of shit himself.

There is no fucking shit which doesn't stink, that is why its called shit in the first place.

And killing innocent women and children counts as really really bad shit. Its not shit that doesn't stink. Grow the fuck up.

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I don't understand what you're talking about

'XYZ's shit don't stink. Is as a matter of fact full of shit himself'

So I can't defend anything if you deem it shit? You started the whole shit analogy and I'm not really getting it. I never meant to insult you, you don't have to resort to personal insults

[–]BarcelonaiVarun -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

You can defend things within context not by using hypocritical stances.
The shit analogy is used to highlight that if its shit, it will stink, irrespective of who its from or where its from.

Qatar has human rights issues and as does the US. Its hypocritical to negate or downplay one or the other with clever word play and margins and what not.

Human rights doesn't work like that. One can't argue along the lines that US is better than Qatar because rampant Police abuse is lesser crime than over worked Labor/accidental deaths.

If the argument then goes to not just overworked labor/accidental death but real abuse of workers and what not then you ratchet it up for the US as well, with Police abuse and shooting deaths.

You see where we are going, basically no where, its a He-said she said, this and that and bla bla back and forth.

And we haven't even touched the War abuses. But lets forget that for the time being.

[–]joepo32 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry to burst your bubble but some shit doesn't stink. Scientifically speaking

[–]Atlético MadridStingerc -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Because it's the prime excuse most people give as to why the World Cup should be taken from Qatar. It seems at this point you are just feigning innocence because the same argument used against Qatar is just as relevant when talking about the US.

[–]Bayern Münchengotziller 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So the US has just as bad human rights as Qatar because a few power hungry racist cops have killed people out of all the police officers in our entire nation? There's whole states that haven't had any issues...

[–]LibyaAlGamaty -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hmm, I think there's a little bit more than that. Such as torturing innocent people (Guantanamo), killing thousands of innocent people abroad through drone strikes, Spying on everyone (even in your country), etc etc

No comparison between Qatar and the US in terms of human rights, the US is far worse.

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It absolutely is not as relevant when discussing US against Qatar. I can't believe I'm having to argue that US has a better human rights record than Qatar, I mean really? It doesn't take a genius to look at the current and past record for Qatar and to realize the US is a much more developed country with MUCH more labour rights than Qatar. I seriously can't believe you're defending Qatar in this

[–]Atlético MadridStingerc -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Apparently reading comprehension wasn't big at your school. Where did I defend Qatar? Just saying if you are gonna argue that Qatar doest respect human rights you should not act his and mighty a week after a major American city had a gigantic set of riots over police abuse.

[–]Bayern Münchengotziller 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

you act as though its black and white and you either are a perfect country or as bad as Qatar

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I also said US wasn't perfect in this regard, I guess you didn't read that

[–]joepo32 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Two completely different situations. One is worse than the other. Killing of thousands of slaves labor's is much worse than police over step. And that's not even putting into the equation of how terrible the police force and judicial system is in Qatar. You can be executed for simply being gay. That wouldn't happen in America. America and Qatar are not even close to being the same on Human rights. Qatar is in its stone age compared to most advanced countries. Some countries are more advanced and have a way better human rights laws. Lumping them together is naive.

[–]Belgiumcoconutnuts 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sure there's a lot to say about the US and human rights but I don't think children's rights is the best argument here. There's a lot of reasons why the US didn't like the convention which range from the way parenting is viewed to issues with regards to military matters ( military academies etc in the context of children's rights ).

Add to that the fact that the convention isn't really that great to begin with and a lot of signatories don't really give a damn about it.

[–]Bayern Münchengotziller 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The U.S. may not have signed some agreement but its not like we have any forced labor, child marriage, deprivation of legal identity, lack of atleast highschool education, freedom of expression. The only thing I'm not sure about is healthcare and I'm pretty sure if a child can't afford healthcare the hospital still has to help them which gets taken from the tax payers

[–]joepo32 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They do have to help them. Hospitals can't turn anyone away.

[–]joepo32 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We already have laws for all these things in the states. Just because we haven't signed an agreement with the UN doesn't mean these things are allowed to happen in America.

[–]Dunfermline Athletickieranaway -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

maybe thats why they didnt give it to england because they knew david cameron would revoke the human rights act

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I don't believe Blatter is completely innocent in this. Whatever you say he is the head of Fifa with a lot of influence, the head of an organisation has some accountability for the decisions made by it. Many members, like Jack Warner as you mentioned, are also corrupt but don't make it seem like Blatter is in the right here. If Blatter really gave a shit he'd try to prevent corruption in Fifa, thats obviously not the case

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm not defending Blatter, rather trying to put the blame on the people who are actually responsible for Qatar 2022. I always see posts directing hate at Blatter for Qatar but he was in no way responsible for it.

Jack Warner and Hammam also have a lot of influence. bin Hammam was the AFC President who challenged Blatter for presidency.

[–]JuventusGreenbackboogi 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thats true, we should be talking more about Jack Warner and Hammam. Just talking about Fifa makes me sick nowadays

[–]joepo32 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is true but he is in control and should be doing something about it. Ignoring it is just as bad as setting it in place. He needs to grow some balls and stand up to it. But he won't. Which is why he deserves everything people say about him.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

its not because he won't, its because he can't. He also has been vocally against Qatar.

As President, he barely has any power over the 24 man committee.

[–]joepo32 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

He has more than people think. It just has consequences. Like not being reelected.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

you literally have no idea about any of this do you? just arguing because well, murica

[–]Melbourne City FCsamtheman1993 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It'd be awesome for Australia to host it, but it'd never happen. Too much clashes with the AFL, NRL and Super Rugby codes (World Cup happens right in the middle of the season), not nearly enough infrastructure and our backwards tightass government wouldn't want to invest jack shit. Plus, our pitches are more suited towards rugby than football/soccer.

We hosted the Asian Cup in January, but that was during the off-season for all the other codes here so it wasn't too bad.

[–]Iranfootball1010 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

One of the worst Asia Cups ever. Officiating was horrendous and cost Iran the tournament.

[–]Evertonkeyboardbitch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Japan or Australia/NZ

[–]Manchester Unitedeggaldo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Australia should have got it in my opinion. USA 94 was too recent for me. I hope it comes to England again, it has been far too long.

[–]Atlético MadridStingerc 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think a point people ignore about FIFA is that despite all the allegations of corruption it has always been steadfast on one issue: not getting involved in politics.

You can discredit it in other ways, but getting upset it won't pressure Qatar to change its political policies is a bad argument. FIFA, for all its faults, has always been very good about this.

I doubt they do it out of the goodness of their heart, but it has given them plenty of leeway to operate without any government interference.

Besides, it has always seems to me very disingenuous that Qatar is attacked for the use of slave labor for the World Cup, yet western companies and individuals have now for years flocked to and made billions to other middle eastern tax havens like Qatar, Bahrain, and the UAE and ignored that they all were built on slave labor. All of a sudden because you don't get to see a world cup game in Chicago or Manchester slave labor is bad, yet when your company open offices in Doha or you went on vacation to Dubai it was all peachy.

[–]joepo32 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Because it's 2015 and building off slave labor isn't accepted anymore. As it shouldn't be. They shouldn't get a pass because other countries did it hundreds of years ago. I could careless if it was in America, England or any other advanced nation. Just as long as its in a place that doesn't allow people to die like they are ants. And Fifa shouldn't ask people to change their political ideals but they shouldn't pick countries who's political ideals are barbaric. It should be part of their process of picking the location.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

By them picking political ideals, then they are going against what they truly are - neutral.

[–]joepo32 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But they aren't neutral. They are pro money. You can't be neutral if money is the man influence. You are far from neutral. Extremely biased in matter of fact.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

they are politically neutral.

[–]CD Motaguafanolato2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The human's right issue is a good reason to not support it. But, if we decide to overlook it (which we shouldn't), Qatar is a horrible place to host.

The WC is a june-july tradition at this point.

Qatar isn't big enough to host. If you country only has one or.two cities, it shouldn't host. As a Honduran, I understand that we'll never host, and that is OK with me.

Qatar has zero football tradition and football has little to gain by expanding in that country. Football is already popular there, it's not like the USA in 94 where you were tapping it for its potential market.

Those are my reasons, outside the more important human rights issues, on why Qatar shouldn't have been chosen as host.

[–]Republic of IrelandRylingo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, if you're not for Qatar 2022 because of human rights violations, then who do you think should host?

FIFA's own risk evaluation report 2022 listed Qatar as the worst nation to hold the world cup. All of the other nations that applied scored higher in FIFA's own report! USA literally beat Qatar in every category. Australia and England also scored highly.

Choose any of them.

[–]BarcelonaiVarun 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Blatter was not really, really opposed to Qatar, He is fine with WC being anywhere other than Europe(this is what he cares most about on the Hosting front).

It might not have been his first choice but that is irrelevant. He is only being a bit tougher (only relative terms) on Qatar in recent years to have a positive PR campaign.

He is on balance fine with it being in Qatar and Middle East.

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (54子コメント)

Also, if you're not for Qatar 2022 because of human rights violations, then who do you think should host?

USA, USA-Canada, or Australia.

[–]Republic of Irelandeverydayimrusslin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yeah in terms of the competition spanning the whole world, Australia is the final frontier. It would be a great holiday too.

[–]BarcelonaiVarun 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It would be a great holiday too.

Really?

It has one of the most expensive currencies on the planet.

Its the farthest place from majority of population centers, esp Football populations.

And then the fucking Time Zone. This alone would count against it in the future as well.

In January 2015 League football matches were playing in 39C heat and the League official said it was fine weather.

It was only prepared to construct 3 Football stadiums and instead use the other 9 from other sports. This doesn't help the future of the sport because post WC, given that Football is not the top sport in the country it will not be able to compete with other popular sports for those multi-sport venues.

Australia couldn't even fucking bribe properly. It got even less votes than England (who got 2).

I could go on. Australia was no front runner, its far from it. People seem to have this romantic image of it being one. Its not.

[–]Republic of Irelandeverydayimrusslin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It would be a great holiday too.

For me? Yeah, my brother lives there.

Also, it's only an hour difference from the time in South Korea, who have held a world cup. I don't really see it as a big issue.

As for the arenas, it is probably prudent to not follow the example of South Africa and Brazil who now have gargantuan grounds that are never put to use.

And finally, I never said it was a front runner. I said if they had it there, then they would have brought the tournament to every major part of the world.

[–]BarcelonaiVarun -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As for the arenas, it is probably prudent to not follow the example of South Africa and Brazil who now have gargantuan grounds that are never put to use.

This bit is overhyped and wrongly reported in the mainstream news.

There was a far more nuanced comment from a Brazilian fan on this issues few months back and he said only about 1-2 stadiums are having issues, rest are fine and will help in the long term and they will. Brazil is a developing country with massive population and one that loves football. Its prior football infrastructure was in shambles.

And it was prudent for Australia to not waste money on a sport which is not even popular there, sure the Govt made the right call. What is exactly why its not a front runner or contender. Because there are other countries which are willing to spend the money on stadiums and growth of the game.

Only the US gets exemption from stadium construction because it has other things to offer which Australia can not. Primarily more revenue. Which is why FIFA gives the US an exemption from stadium construction.

it's only an hour difference from the time in South Korea, who have held a world cup. I don't really see it as a big issue.

Yes i know, Australia has the +8 time zone. The single biggest population mass Time Zone on the planet.
However good that is, it still leaves quite a lot of people far away from it, esp mainstream football regions.
South Korea and Japan had other things going for them as well.

Middle East is the best Time Zone on the planet to host global events. Because it covers the most number of population and regions at the right time.
There will be no one watching the WC 2022 at 2 AM, like so happens for East Asia almost everytime. And there will be no matches played in the middle of day to accommodate Time Zones like so happened in Forteleza in 2014. This is a very serious issue with every WC.

Secondly 2 Billion people across 3 Continents are within 4 hours from Middle East.

Australia is just not on for the most critical practical, real world factors.

For me? Yeah, my brother lives there.

Meaning, subjectively for you. No one can argue against this line of argument because its personal opinion which is also why its not relevant enough to be used in this context because a WC is not just for you or few individuals. Its the World Cup, multiple perspective, the most number of perspectives possible need to be considered.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (46子コメント)

So if you're against it for human rights reasons, then why are you for USA?

They are just as bad as Qatar. They violate basic human rights as well by spying on their citizens and foreign nationals.

A list of UN human rights treaties that the United States have yet to ratify

  • Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW)

  • Convention on the Rights of the Child (Only 3 UN members have yet to ratify. Somalia, South Sudan and USA)

  • Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities

  • Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture

They invaded Iraq, they torture, they kill civilians and American corporations have long been accused of child labour.

I find the anti-Qatar but pro-America posts very hypocritical. Everyone is so vocally against Qatar and for America but quickly forget they are just as bad. Also, why aren't more people against Russia 2018? Russian troops are still in Ukraine ffs.

note that I'm not exactly for Qatar, I'm just indifferent towards it.

[–]Republic of Irelandeverydayimrusslin 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (6子コメント)

quickly forget they are just as bad.

yeah... they're not though are they?

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (22子コメント)

I'm sorry but I think you need to double check your priorities. Qatar expatriate workers are subjected to forced labour, after having their passports confiscated, and can be punished with beatings and withholding of pay. They can be denied permission to change employers and denied permission to leave the country. These human rights abuses directly relate to the World Cup because these workers are building the stadiums and roads (and many are dying in the process).

We're also talking about a country with partial Sharia, where flogging and stoning happen for crimes like alcohol consumption and adultery. The US might have its fair share of shit, but it's not as bad as that. Besides if you want the host country to be one which has none of these rights abuses and isn't complicit in America's spying, Guantanamo and so on, you're left with a small handful of countries, most Scandinavian or South American.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (18子コメント)

human rights has never been a criteria to host a World Cup, I'm just pointing out that even America violates basic human rights as well.

My point being if everyone's going to be a human rights pioneer when it comes to Qatar 2022, why stop there and solely pin Qatar? Why aren't you against the World Cup sponsors, a lot of them American corporations? Why aren't you clamouring for your FA to not play against Russia? Their troops are still in another European country yet somehow no one is so openly against them. Where is the outrage in letting Russian clubs still participate in the CL and EL?

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Why aren't you against the World Cup sponsors, a lot of them American corporations?

I am and so are a lot of people

Why aren't you clamouring for your FA to not play against Russia?

I'm equally against the Russia World Cup and so are a lot of people.

Where is the outrage in letting Russian clubs still participate in the CL and EL?

Their clubs didn't invade Ukraine, though I do think the ones with regularly racist fans need tougher punishments.

The fact that human rights hasn't been a criteria before doesn't mean it shouldn't be one. If I'd been alive at the time I'd probably have opposed the Chile World Cup too.

[–]PortsmouthGospartan-PO12 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The Chile World Cup was in 1962... The coup against Allende that brought in Pinochet was in 73. There wasn't much reason to oppose the Chile World Cup when it happened.

You might be thinking of how the USSR refused to play in the National Stadium in Santiago where many people had been executed during the coup? That was a play off for the World Cup I think not them hosting the actual tournament.

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Oh yeah, you might be right there. Could've sworn they hosted one in the 70s.

[–]PortsmouthGospartan-PO12 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

70's was Mexico in 70 then Germany (74) and Argentina (78) I think. Argentina should have been opposed on human rights reasons after their coup in 76 put the Junta in charge, so maybe that's the one you mean? They made lots of people disappear.

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, Argentina is the one I was thinking of there.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I think you're missing my main point

human rights has no bearing when selecting a host for the WC yet people act like it is when it comes to Qatar

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I directly addressed that point.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Then where were you for USA 94 or even France 98? They just invaded Iraq at that time yet all people talk about is "omg attendance"

[–]mijajim 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is that you Sepp?

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

did you have to spam the same message six times?

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Firstly you can't just talk about the Iraq invasion as if it's that black-and-white. You might personally be dead against it but not everyone is, and a lot of people see that there are arguments both for and against it. Don't forget what Saddam was doing over there.

And what the hell was France doing wrong in 1998?

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

They supported the war. They sent thousands of troops.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

USA's slogan for a World Cup should just be "not as bad as Qatar"

You are being a hypocrite. For USA yet against Qatar? Your reasoning boils down to simply 'they're not as bad IMO'.

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm only a hypocrite if your outlook is so simplistic that you can't recognise differing degrees of atrocity. "Both have human rights issues so they're both equally as bad" is just completely bullshit logic.

And yeah, they're not as bad IMO.

And why are you starting a new comment chain on this comment?

[–]Aiace95 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Guantanamo? helloooo? mk ultra? infecting black people with syphilis?

[–]ArsenalBrapfamalam 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

You cant coherently argue that Qatar's human rights record is as bad as the USA's. Even in your reply to the saints guy you gloss over his main point about modern slavery and workers deaths by picking, choosing and oversimplifying the argument so it's (seemingly to yourself) easier for you to attack.

Also Blatter has confirmed that human rights criteria will be used to asses future bids, why exactly do you think that is?

You're being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian and it's boring.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You are delusional if you think Blatter is serious about that. With the elections coming up, he's saying those things for his image and chances of winning (not like he's going to lose anyway)

[–]BarcelonaiVarun -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

The killing of innocent children and women, lets leave that aside for a moment, if its possible to do so that is.

Global Slavery Index.

US has 3 times as many slaves as Qatar.

And before you go all, per capita BS on this. Human beings are not commodities like Carbon or vegetables or fuel. Per capita doesn't work for such things the same way.

So I think on balance this satisfies your criteria of,

You cant coherently argue that Qatar's human rights record is as bad as the USA's.

[–]ArsenalBrapfamalam 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well that's a pretty dumb standpoint. It's pretty well known that every country in the world has modern slavery, but who is endorsing, promoting benefiting from the slave labour?

The key difference you're conveniently overlooking is that the Qatari government made the proposal for the bid and have subcontracted companies that are using and have used slave labour. This is the link that ties the Qatari world cup bid to human rights abuses regarding the world cup no matter how many fallacious arguments you care to make.

[–]BarcelonaiVarun -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Fallacious arguments?

Facts are now fallacious arguments, nice to know.

So i'll just list some more because you seem to think these are dumb.

benefiting from the slave labour?

Benefiting you say.

What the fuck do you think those slaves in the US are doing, benefiting themselves.

What clothes are you wearing RIGHT NOW as you type. The chances are if not them then most in your wardrobe were made by people working in slave conditions. Hence the reason they are that cheap all over the globe.

Who is that benefiting?

The workers who make those clothes? Because its a matter of fact they get paid like shit for working in shit conditions and IN FACT, its these very people who run off to places like the Middle East where the risks are higher but the pay is many orders high as well.

There is a reason fucking 50Million+ people are desperate to enter the ME to work but can not.

Who is that benefiting?

Lets talk about the English and US companies who are in Qatar and Dubai making Billions. Fucking English architecture houses/companies are making Multi Million dollar deals for the stadium designs of 2022. These companies pay Billions in taxes to their parent countries like the UK and US and that money trickles down to YOU (if you are from UK or US or other Western country)

Who do you think is Endorsing and benefiting?

Of course Qatar has nasty shit to deal with. That was not the context of the comment chain and the quote to which i replied. And i made that very clear.

I replied to this, actual fallacious statement,

You cant coherently argue that Qatar's human rights record is as bad as the USA's.

And i argued, coherently enough.

[–]ArsenalBrapfamalam 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

A lot of moot points you're making there when you consider the US and UK governments have specific forced labour laws which have been exercised and Qatar does not in the Kafala system.

The issue of slave labour wasn't arbitrarily brought up, it's an issue because Qatar employs and importantly won't regulate subcontractors on their sovereign land who are using slave labour to construct World Cup stadiums - an international event that gains international attention. No amount of smoke and mirrors you try and make changes that really.

[–]BarcelonaiVarun -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh so now you change the comment train again.

The Kafala system is being dismantled by the end of this year.
US UK govt has torture laws as well, doesn't mean they don't torture and kill off innocent people in other places.

You were the one who brought up the point of Links, ties, sub contracting, endorsing, promoting benefiting. Meaning concepts which mean the buck doesn't stop with the manager on the job on site. It goes to the top and that top includes(in addition to Qatar) the US, UK, its companies, YOU and others.

You are not worth debating with. Anyone who lists facts as moot points and fallacious is hypocritical on his own complicity in the shit that all of this is, doesn't understand what is going on.

[–]ArsenalBrapfamalam 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol you what. You compared cumulative crime in a country of 320 million to one of 2 million. How deluded can you get, it's bloody laughable.

[–]ArsenalBrapfamalam 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Also I forgot to address the complete stupidity of the per capita argument. As If you get away with that lol.

I just looked it up USA and their population is 319 million. Qatar's is 2 million. Given that exploitative modern slavery has been accounted in every country in the world it's pretty impressive that the USA only has 3 times as much. Perhaps they would have more if the US government cared to endorsed it in 2015 like Qatar does?

[–]BarcelonaiVarun -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You clearly have a reading impediment for sure. Because the per capita argument was already touched by the original comment.

Humans are not commodities. Which is why human rights are held at a pedestal because they are not measured in per capita, they are measured in Either you're in with them or Not, Period.

[–]ArsenalBrapfamalam 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Err...You can't eliminate crime. Bit silly that I have to explain that to you. I guess every country is 'with them' then. The difference is the US government has laws against forced labour on sovereign territory and exercises them while Qatar doesn't and actually employs them.

Yes your point about per capita is moronic if you're looking at cumulative numbers. US's population is 160 times larger, it's obscenely larger. It's pretty hilarious you're arguing it and applying false sanctimony to justify it in your head.

[–]Germanyknecht_ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Australia doesn't have a great record with human rights either. Just look at their concentration camps for boat people

[–]BarcelonaMr_Anderssen 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

dude you're on an American website , with the majority of people living under the west. You wasting your time trying to argue your point.

I think you are absolutely right though.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I still have a couple of hours before the majority wake up

[–]New England Revolutionburnsing_for_you 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My country is in no way perfect and has committed some awful atrocities over the course of its existence, but none of those things have a single thing to do with the World Cup.

[–]mijajim 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is that you Sepp?

[–]Sunderlandwwxxyyzz 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

One is an oil mad country with little footballing culture playing matches in extreme heat with a questionable human rights record and the other is Qatar

[–]Southamptonjoethesaint 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They've actually hosted a very successful one before, you might recall.

[–]Denmarkvoldogkokain 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

if you're not for Qatar 2022 because of human rights violations, then who do you think should host?

im fine with Qatar. i think its going to be a great world cup

[–]Swansea CityHumanatee69 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What is wrong with you? Do you actually believe for one moment that Qatar and the United States are comparable at all in regards to human rights?

Before spouting off your misguided opinion you should probably consider the conclusions of major human rights organizations:

  • Human Rights Watch, 2014

  • ITUC report, 2014

  • Amnesty International, 2014

  • Guardian piece on North Korean slaves in Qatar, 2014

Now your primary argument against US Human Rights lies in the fact that they are a non-signatory nation on several UN treaties. Let's not forget that Mauritania (a nation where 20% of the population is enslaved) cites the UNHDR as a guiding principle in its constitution. I love the work the UN does, but let's be real, whether or not a country has ratified a specific treaty is a horrible way to judge their success in human rights.

While you can say the general grind of being lower class in the United States is difficult, it is not even remotely similar to the Kafala system responsible for what is essentially slavery in Qatar. While the United States does have extreme wealth inequality, it doesn't even touch the social divide we see between workers and citizens in Qatar.

To bring this back to football, while most people generally agree that Qatari policies are barbaric and infringe on human rights, you are right to a degree when you say human rights isn't an explicit criteria of hosting the World Cup. The biggest issue here is that football itself is going to directly lead to horrific human rights abuses. Making the stadiums is going to involve the recruitment of what is essentially slave labor, and the death toll by 2022 will almost certainly be thousands of lives directly linked to the sporting event.

Say what you want about the US military complex and various geopolitical human rights violations and I'll likely agree with you every step of the way. The distinction however is that none of these issues would be directly involved with the sport itself. The stadiums needed for a world cup already exist and no one will die preparing them unless an absolutely freak accident happens. Homosexuals will be fully capable of enjoying the event without having a government wanting them dead, imprisoned or prevented from entering the country.

While the US is guilty of its fair share of human rights violations, they have occurred completely outside the realm of football. Qatar's institutionalized human rights violations are the backs on which this event will be built and is inseparable from their effort to host a World Cup. By promoting the Qatar World Cup, FIFA is promoting the use of horrific policies as a means to achieving success and tainting the reputation of football itself.

In case it wasn't clear enough:

US invasion of Iraq, Decisions to Abstain from UN Treaties

Relevant to football: No. None of this would have any bearing on world cup preparations.

Qatari Kafala System, Persecution of Homsexuals

Relevant to football: Yes. The Kafala System is the means by which the event is made possible and laws regarding homosexuality will directly affect potential spectators.

[–]Tottenham HotspurBlubbey 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

then who do you think should host?

Australia, they haven't had one yet.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

and Qatar?

[–]Tottenham HotspurBlubbey 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If the world cup has to be moved to the winter, maybe it's not the best place. Then there're the corruption allegations.

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Australia isnt innocent.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/14/world-cup-bid-australia-public-money-bribes-fifa

[–]Tottenham HotspurBlubbey 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So even with that, Aus's winter coincides with the world cup. No need to change the date of the world cup.

[–]Brasiljvcarreira 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah fuck it, do the WC here in Brazil again

[–]Chelseanickkid42 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Im from America but think an Aussie world cup would be cool. Although america is the most prepared, america or england could host the tournament practically on very short notice

[–]Germanyknecht_ -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Every big country in Europe could hold it at very short notice

[–]Sanfrecce HiroshimaNokel 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

[–]BarcelonaFreakishHero 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

There are already a huge array of large stadiums in Italy, France, England, Spain and Germany as well as the infrastructure to host the cup and that's just the big five off of the top of my head.

[–]Sanfrecce HiroshimaNokel 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Misread his comment and thought he said "every country in Europe". Or he mightve edited it.

[–]Germanyknecht_ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't edit it

[–]Chelseanickkid42 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I could see Germany and France, would Italy be able to host a successful cup on short notice? Thats the one id be unsure of. Same goes for Spain I think also

[–]Germanyknecht_ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What wouldn't make it possible for Spain and Italy? They definitely have the stadiums and public transport systems

[–]Chelseanickkid42 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know Spain and Italy have been hit economically lately, wasnt sure if it would be viable economically for them.

[–]Borussia DortmundStephen_Buck 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I know that blatter didn't vote for qatar but couldn't he just move it anyway seeing as he's in charge? Or is it more complex than that?

[–]GermanycptSMU 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Why should 1 person be able to move the WC if there was a voting with loads of people on where it should be held?

[–]Borussia DortmundStephen_Buck 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Because he is the president of fifa and there have been countless reports that the vote was corrupt?

[–]JuventusCee-Mon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A president of a (well, supposedly anyways) non-profit organization can't just up and decide to do something if he doesn't have the majority onboard. He's not a monarch with absolute power, he's just the figurehead, the lead representative.

[–]Borussia DortmundStephen_Buck 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah I know that know

[–]Switzerlandwowwhataswiss[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Much more complex. He is more of a figurehead. He doesn't get to vote on bids unless theres a draw.

If Blatter had that much power, we would've had South Africa in 2006.

[–]mijajim 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is that you Sepp?

[–]Aston Villathe0nlytrueprophet -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The Tory majority shows that most people don't care about the human right violations.

The fact it ruins all the major leagues is surely enough to be against it. Not to mention it's clearly dodgy