(cache) moggley555がStudent Loan [OC]について記入したコメント

[–]flossdaily 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 8 時間前 (2子コメント)

We are the first generation for which college and graduate school education may not show a positive return on investment. Most of us who have student loan debt were raised in a world where parents, teachers, and the media have been pushing us towards college since birth.

So yeah, if anyone had actually sat me down and explained to me that financially I'd be fucked, with absolutely no recourse, even in bankruptcy, I probably would have listened. But absolutely no one said that to me.

My law school blatantly lied about my employment prospects (bragging about a 98% post-graduation employment rate... a number that was nowhere close to the truth).

Also, when I signed up for that loan, the economy was looking rock solid. When I graduated we where at the height of an economic crisis I hadn't seen in my lifetime.

I thought that getting a law degree was pretty damned responsible. Never would I have imagined that it would have been an IMPEDIMENT to employment, rather than a boon. But that was exactly the case when I graduated.

The legal market had crashed. Established lawyers were going out of business, law firms were laying people off, not hiring. And NO ONE outside of law would touch someone with a law degree, wisely understanding that we'd abandon them when the economy turned around.

I had to get work in marketing, because there were no jobs in law. Now, years later, the economy has turned around, but my law degree has been gathering dust. My license to practice has expired, and I don't have a day's worth of practical legal experience. I'm stuck in the field of marketing.

If I wanted to get back into law, I simply couldn't. Too much new blood in the market, and I'd have to spend thousands to get my license back, on top of taking off months to study again... months I can't afford to be out of work. All that, and I'd likely be taking a pay cut in this new legal market.

I'm fucked. I made a BAD investment. But unlike small business owners who make bad investments, I can't get ANY relief in bankruptcy.

So, I'll never be able to by a house. I'll never be able to start my own business. I've been married for 3 years, and my wife and I have never been on vacation. I am not a productive member of society. I'm not contributing to the economy. I'm not applying my education. All my money goes to my loans.

And of the tens of thousands I've spent on my loans, less than 2000 has gone towards the principal.

I'm trapped. My income is too high to give me any hope of relief in the form of government aid, loan forgiveness, or any relief program of any kind. But my income is also too low to actually pay off the principal of my loans.

If I work hard my whole life, I will live poorly in homes that I lease, driving shitty cars, and buying only enough consumer items to keep my quality of life high enough that I don't have to kill myself.

I'll likely die of heart disease in my mid-70s, at my desk in an office, leaving my wife and daughter little or nothing by way of inheritance, the rewards of my life's work having going into the pockets of the huge banks that rewrote the bankruptcy laws in their favor, and who crashed the economy with no consequences.

But yeah, It's my fault for being so irresponsible with my flighty, moronic, pipe dream of being a lawyer.

[–]Smartfood_Fo_Lyfe 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 7 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]moggley555 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 7 時間前 (0子コメント)

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[–]GRCA 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 3 時間前 (1子コメント)

I was the first person in my family to go through a real college admissions process, yet somehow my parents and I were able to figure out that instead of gunning for the most selective "dream" school I could get into, it might be better for me to apply to schools that were less selective and would offer me more scholarship money. I ended up attending a pretty good private liberal arts college that gave me a really nice scholarship. I also was lucky enough to live in an area with several schools within commuting distance, and I made the decision to apply to those schools so that I could commute and avoid campus room & board. I'm now a grad student in a high ranking program, with a prestigious fellowship and no loan debt. Did going to a relatively no-name school hurt me at times? Probably, but I think I've been able to offset it by becoming more creative with finding opportunities and forcing myself to get serious about networking.

[–]bandersnatchh 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 3 時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]Achalemoipas スコアが基準値未満のコメント-22 ポイント-21 ポイント-20 ポイント 9 時間前 (43子コメント)

[–]kevinsucks 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 8 時間前* (25子コメント)

moggley555 said

stop blindly taking out loans to go to colleges for degrees they don't need

In a time where it's already difficult to find jobs with college degrees, it's even more difficult to make a decent living without one. In this way, yes, what are essentially teenagers, many of whom lack direction in their lives from peers or parents feel enormous pressure at the reality that they're going to have to make it on their own, are "forced" to go to college. And what adults, teachers, television, movies, commercials tell us is that if you want to be worth anything in our society, you must get a college education. So these teenagers who already have no idea what they're doing with their lives scramble about trying to find something to study and how to find the financial resources to study it, as their more financially stable buddies go off to attend a state university comfortably.

Then they accrue debt. Then they realize that the job market for the chosen degree isn't all that safe. One professor tells them to study what they love, so they stick to it -- but their parents keep telling them to study Engineering because "that's where the jobs are at". They make the switch and fail the classes out of a combined lack of interest in the subject and incompatibility with their skillsets.

Yes, the debt is the responsibility of the students who took them, not denying that. But the fact that this is so prevalent indiciates that there's a much larger, systematic problem at hand that goes beyond "scatter-brained 18 year olds." When 70% of graduating seniors in the US have student debt, and the average debt is like 20K, there is something very wrong. I don't think anyone should have to go through this in an honest effort to seek an education, and I don't think pointing fingers at teenagers is helpful or makes very much sense.

[–]acydetchx 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 7 時間前* (0子コメント)

You hit several nails right on the head. Regardless of most everything else, I don't see how someone can not have sympathy for forcing such an enormous decision as taking out these massive loans on kids, some of whom can't even vote yet--I was 17 when I started college. And saying they have much of a choice in the matter is crazy; no one is holding a gun to their head, but the vast majority of high school kids are being pushed by parents, teachers, and society as a whole to go to college right after they graduate high school; it's pretty much become a societal requirement now except in a few rare circumstances, so it's pretty damn close to not even being a choice.

It's even less of a "choice" when you consider that even some retail jobs now require a college degree, and really any entry level full-time career position requires at least a degree. Back in the day you could start off as a secretary in some corporation, without a degree, and work your way up rather far. My grandma did that in NYC in the 30s/40s and she didn't even have a high school diploma--she started answering phones for a company and eventually became a communications specialist; that kind of situation just doesn't happen anymore unless you are extremely lucky and know somebody.

Edit: I don't even have any loans myself, but I have enough empathy to realize the situation is just wrong and needs some serious fixing. I was lucky enough that my grandma could afford to pay my tuition (the same grandma who worked herself from no diploma to a comm specialist when that path was actually possible). This was in 2001-2005 though, and from what I understand tuition has skyrocketed even higher than it was back then.

[–]Achalemoipas -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 7 時間前* (23子コメント)

are "forced" to go to college.

I like how you put quotes on the word, recognizing yourself that this argument is only true if you use a very wrong definition of "forced".

We all have those pressures. Only some of us get crushing debt. They are not forced, and they are responsible. You just conceded to what he said.

I don't like this excuse that being 18 somehow makes you retarded and unable to make reasonable choices in life. It's not like they are thrown in a room and have to make a choice in 1 minute. They have years to think about it and aren't retarded. They are not any less responsible for their choice than anybody else.

When 70% of graduating seniors in the US have student debt, and the average debt is like 20K, there is something very wrong.

Took me two years. People suffering is very wrong. People having a debt when they're young is not very wrong. It's slightly unfortunate. Especially when the choice to not have that debt exists and when that debt allows you to earn many dozens of times that amount over your lifetime. Lots of people just learn a trade for little money, get jobs, afford themselves a higher education. They are faced with the same situation, and make a different choice. They are also equally responsible for that choice. If they are to be commended for that choice, the ones making the wrong choice should not.

[–]kevinsucks 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 6 時間前* (22子コメント)

I like how you put quotes on the word, recognizing yourself that this argument is only true if you use a very wrong definition of "forced".

Thanks for the critique, professor, but the original user of the word was /u/moggley555. I don't particularly like using the word to describe these kind of issues, but it's pretty useful for evoking an emotional response. If you want me indulge you by stating the obvious, sure: no one literally forces people to go to college.

We all have those pressures. Only some of us get crushing debt. They are not forced, and they are responsible. You just conceded to what he said.

Yeah. Did you read my entire comment? I say that here:

Yes, the debt is the responsibility of the students who took them, not denying that.

The main issue I had with moggley555's comments was the oversimplification of a complex issue that is wildly different for every individual.

I don't like this excuse that being 18 somehow makes you retarded and unable to make reasonable choices in life. It's not like they are thrown in a room and have to make a choice in 1 minute. They have years to think about it and aren't retarded.

Okay, I think you are misunderstanding me. The point wasn't to make excuses for students with large debt, it was to explain how much more complicated this issue can be than "being more responsible" by explaining why it is so many students decide to go to college despite their financial insecurities (never even mind the fact that schools and advisers practically encourage students to take on loans).

Took me two years.

Two years to what? Pay off your loans? Congratulations man, nice personal anecdote. Unfortunately, it holds no weight whatsoever.

People suffering is very wrong. People having a debt when they're young is not very wrong. It's slightly unfortunate.

Not even sure what you're trying to say here? That student debt is "no big deal"? If so, that's completely relative.

Especially when the choice to not have that debt exists. Lots of people just learn a trade for little money, get jobs, afford themselves a higher education. They are faced with the same situation, and make a different choice. They are also equally responsible for that choice.

You seem to be more preoccupied with finger-wagging than you do actually understanding why so many students fall into ridiculous debt.

Well, I guess from your perspective, you don't actually have to try to understand it because you already understand the issue completely right? These college students just need to be more like you; that is the solution to America's student loan problem.

If they are to be commended for that choice, the ones making the wrong choice should not.

I don't think either should be commended. But I don't think either should be reprimanded, either.

[–]Achalemoipas -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 6 時間前* (21子コメント)

If you want me indulge you by stating the obvious, sure: no one literally forces people to go to college.

I accept your concession? You were arguing they were forced. I pointed out you couldn't use "forced" without putting quotes on it demonstrating you didn't agree with yourself, and now you literally say they aren't forced.

So, thank you?

Yeah. Did you read my entire comment? I say that here:

Yeah, that's why I said you were conceding. I don't know why you are quoting where you are conceding in response to "you conceded". That's just strange. It's weird how you can argue with people while fully agreeing with them. It's like you don't like the idea, but aren't stupid enough to hold the opposite view.

The main issue I had with moggley555's comments was the oversimplification of a complex issue that is wildly different for every individual.

Well, he didn't try to describe the issue or even define it, so oversimplifying it would be impossible. He commented about responsibility.

The point wasn't to make excuses for students with large debt, it was to explain how much more complicated this issue can be than "being more responsible"

That's not even coherent. The issue of "people having debt" is in no way connected to the claim that "people aren't forced to get that debt".

Two years to what? Pay off your loans? Congratulations man, nice personal anecdote. Unfortunately, it holds no weight whatsoever.

Much like all that pathetic crap story about engineering degrees.

Not even sure what you're trying to say here? That student debt is "no big deal"? If so, that's completely relative.

Well of course it's relative. Relative to things that are serious, this is not. You called it "very wrong".

You seem to be more preoccupied with finger-wagging than you do actually understanding why so many students fall into ridiculous debt.

I understand it, I simply don't find explanations to be excuses. I also understand why some people are pedophiles, but it doesn't change anything about their responsibility. The argument is about responsibility. You seemed to want to contradict it, but apparently you were just explaining the mechanics of student debt for some insane reason that doesn't do anything about the claim you seemed to want to contradict.

Well, I guess from your perspective, you don't actually have to try to understand it because you already understand the issue completely right? These college students just need to be more like you.

Yes, that's correct. They should be more like me. People making poor decisions should be more like people who make good decisions.

What a great reduction to the absurd that was.

I don't think either should be commended. But I don't think either should be reprimanded, either.

So you do disagree! And don't!

This was a great investment.

[–]kevinsucks 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 5 時間前* (20子コメント)

I accept your concession? You were arguing they were forced. I pointed out you couldn't use "forced" without putting quotes on it demonstrating you didn't agree with yourself, and now you literally say they aren't forced. So, thank you?

Because I was speaking figuratively. I didn't think that would be hard to understand.

Well, he didn't try to describe the issue or even define it, so oversimplifying it would be impossible. He commented about responsibility.

His implication was that the fix for everyone's student loan problem is "personal responsibility".

Much like all that pathetic crap story about engineering degrees.

No, my story is a demonstration of how the issue can manifest itself beyond a simple black and white case of "personal responsibility." One could argue that switching majors to Engineering was a bad decision because the student ended up failing more classes and having to pay more -- or, you could argue it was a good decision because it's a more clearly defined career choice. The point is the uncertainties that many students face that lead to further debt, and that this one example of millions.

The intention of your anecdote assumes that all students are on equal standing. This isn't very helpful.

Relative to things that are serious, this is not.

By 'this is not' you mean to say that student debt is not serious?

You called it "very wrong".

I said that 70% of graduating seniors in the United States are in debt of upwards of 20K is "very wrong." I do not think any well-adjusted person would say this statistic is "OK" or "not serious."

What I was saying is relative is the individual's state of being in debt. It depends on the student and their debt. For you, it may not be serious to pay 20K in debt. For others, it may be. You were making the generalization that is it just plain "not serious."

You seemed to want to contradict it, but apparently you were just explaining the mechanics of student debt for some insane reason that doesn't do anything about the claim you seemed to want to contradict.

The reason was to create empathy so that you may be able to understand that perhaps it isn't so easy for people such as this guy to distinguish what the "right decision" is. Do you think this guy is entirely to blame for his unfortunate situation?

Yes, that's correct. They should be more like me. People making poor decisions should be more like people who make good decisions. What a great reduction to the absurd that was.

You weren't supposed to agree with that. It is possible that you are a sociopath.

EDIT: I just realized I may be being trolled.

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[–]patternfall 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 9 時間前 (16子コメント)

His argument (moggley's) is incredibly flawed. The claim has never been, "I'm forced to go to college and take out student loans." It's, "In order to pursue the career I want, I have to go to college, which often requires large student loans."

So in this context "forced" becomes a relative term. You ARE forced to go to college in order to pursue certain careers, and for most people that requires student loans. So while you're not forced to pick those careers, dismissing the choice to pursue them as "your choice" is asinine.

However I do agree that those that go to college for a degree in personal interests that doesn't translate into a paying career are making a mistake. That doesn't change the fact that for many, college (and the subsequent student loan debt) is required in order to get the career they want.

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Alongside personal responsibility, some of us believe in societal responsibilities, several of which are pretty broken by the current situation surrounding college and loans, such as: protecting and not taking advantage of minors; providing the best possible education to citizens; preventing manipulation of the 'free market' in unfair ways; keeping the cost of necessary items from outpacing their actual worth by an extremely large margin, especially when the overpricing is simply based on the fact it's necessary and especially when that pricing increases in a manner far exceeding inflation; investing in the future workforce; and many more. I don't have student loans myself, I was lucky enough that my grandparents could afford four years of college when I went. I went from 2001-2005, though, and from what I understand tuition has skyrocketed since then. You might disagree with this, but it is my opinion that personal responsibility must work alongside societal responsible for the betterment of the entire society in question. There are some areas of life where it is better for almost everyone involved, as well as the future, if the society takes responsibility for it, and one of those is education.

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