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This is the follow up to my "Women in Magic" article on Channel Fireball. I’d love your thoughts! (channelfireball.com)

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[–]Personifeeder 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (31子コメント)

I said this about the last article, and I'll say it about this one: if you think an entire gender is being kept out of a game purely by some guy smelling funny, then either A) you're a lunatic, or B) if by some incredible stretch you were in fact correct, I wouldn't actually want to play with anyone so pretentious. If someone actually wanted to get into and be passionate about competitive magic, they wouldn't be turned away that incredibly easily. And before you strawman this argument for your next article, let me clarify: obviously there are some people who need to take better care of themselves. But trying to turn it into a community wide issue and conflating it with gender politics is absurd, and paints a very shallow picture of the women you're campaigning for.

[–]Echospree 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I did not get the impression that Gaby considered one guy smelling funny the cause of the lack of women in Magic.

[–]Personifeeder -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

The entire crux of her argument is based on two points: poor hygiene, and lack of "female role models", which is an even more absurd argument frankly. "There aren't any women in magic because there aren't any women in magic!"

[–]taitaisanchez 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

You're misrepresenting that argument entirely. "Women drop out of the magic community because representation and visibility in the magic community is nearly non-existant."

Half the problem isn't getting women into magic. Magic's a fun game, and that in itself is an attraction into the community. Yet, women don't stay in Magic or stay visible in the community and having visible women in the community supported by CFB, or WotC or whoever would go a long way to keeping women in the community by making them feel welcome and not alienated.

EDIT:

It'd be awesome to see Kathleen De Vere from LRR do commentary because she's sharp and hilarious.

[–]tetsuooooooooooo -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

lack of "female role models"

Meanwhile, I look at her post history and her only two posts are about how there are no women in magic.

Be the change you want to see?

[–]xLeitix 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

From the entire article you took away "girls don't play because Magic players smell funny"? You are aware that this is one of 6 points she mentioned (the shortest one, nonetheless)?

You are sure you don't just want to derail the discussion, because it sure seems like it.

[–]Cishet_Shitlord 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, the shortest one was the entirely unnecessary facepalm point. Way to hit that word count!

[–]Personifeeder -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Only two of those points were actually things she believed kept women out of magic however: the hygiene issue, and the even more absurd "lack of female role models", which is a statement of redundancy. "There are no women in magic because......there are no women in magic".

[–]taitaisanchez -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (16子コメント)

If you're pushing back on the hygiene issue, you're missing the point entirely. You're talking over her and talking over her experience as a woman and the experiences of other women who do complain about these things. That's another bigger symptom of the problem here.

As I said in my main feedback for this article, the hygiene issue for me, isn't just about he raw hygiene, it's about caring about the people around you. The crossover of dudes who smell like a garbage dump and those who hold crappy regressive opinions towards women are interestingly close. There's a lack of empathy for your fellow human in that kind of decision making and improving your hygiene is one step towards being less antisocial.

[–]Personifeeder 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (15子コメント)

This is amazing, how you managed to cram so many strawmen into one post, while accusing me of being antisocial and lacking empathy. Also, accusing me of "talking over her experience as a woman" sounds a lot like telling people they shouldn't be allowed to argue with her. Frankly, I don't care about her "experience as a woman", it's purely anecdotal. I'd be far more interested in demographic surveys, FNM bounce rates, and other hard numbers, as they tend to tell a less biased story.

[–]thedoh 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Frankly, I don't care about her "experience as a woman"

I think we've identified the problem.

[–]Personifeeder 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yes, the problem in only partially quoting people to make them sound bad. My point is clearly that anecdotal evidence about one person's experience is worthless in this kind of context, and if the community as a whole wanted to push towards something than it would have to be based on hard numbers and real research and outreach. Nice try though.

[–]taitaisanchez 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In context, that quote doesn't sound any better.

[–]thedoh 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

At what point to you stop dismissing anecdotes and start listening to women speaking out?

[–]Personifeeder 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

When we get more than one person writing articles and when we get some of those articles containing some hard numbers.

Let me be perfectly clear with you: I am not against having more women in magic. I am not against having more -people- in magic. What I am against is people claiming to speak for entire demographics to lend legitimacy to their own personal problems, which is what it comes across as when you campaign repeatedly against an issue that you have nothing but your own word to base on.

[–]Rhynocerous 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What statistics are you looking to see before you can decide if there's a problem?

[–]taitaisanchez -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Also, accusing me of "talking over her experience as a woman" sounds a lot like telling people they shouldn't be allowed to argue with her.

Frankly, I don't care about her "experience as a woman", it's purely anecdotal.

You are talking over her and ignoring what she's saying. You're digging in your heels on an issue that doesn't need to be debated. Plus you're trying to set what counts as fact and what doesn't. When trying to determine qualitative determinants, like why something happens, you have to listen to the anecdotes and listen to what's being said. That's where the facts are. I'm willing to bet based on my experience and the experience of other nerd women that someone who smells awful tend to be also really terrible people. If you smell like a dumpster, chances that you'll have regressive attitudes is astoundingly high.

We know the bounce rates are really high. How often do women show up in general to FNM at your LGS and how many of them even bother coming back?

I'm accusing you of covering for those who are antisocial and by not showing empathy for the people making complaints, you too are being as crappy as the people who haven't showered since the Shards of Alara block and think that "Go into the kitchen and make me a sandwich" jokes and rape jokes are hilarious.

We've heard from people like you. Endlessly. Your opinion is well represented. But it's ultimately useless and doesn't contribute to the discussion. It is literally holding us back to furthering the community.

edit:

Thanks for the gold!

[–]Personifeeder 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

You're digging in your heels on an issue that doesn't need to be debated. Plus you're trying to set what counts as fact and what doesn't.

-Everything- needs to be debated, that's how a democratic society works. And no, actually, I'm not deciding what counts as facts and what doesn't, that definition has been in place forever, and it's called "the scientific method". Hard financial data and demographic surveys represent facts, not one person's anecdotal experience.

I'm willing to bet based on my experience and the experience of other nerd women that someone who smells awful tend to be also really terrible people. If you smell like a dumpster, chances that you'll have regressive attitudes is astoundingly high.

What the hell does this have to do with either my argument or hers? It just sounds like you trying to label anyone you consider opposed to you, and it's really childish.

We know the bounce rates are really high. How often do women show up in general to FNM at your LGS and how many of them even bother coming back?

We don't know how high they are though, and we don't know why, which is why we need some surveys and numbers. One person arbitrarily deciding that they speak for all women and the one thing they hate keeps all women away is not a reason to start a community wide push towards a change.

you too are being as crappy as the people who haven't showered since the Shards of Alara block and think that "Go into the kitchen and make me a sandwich" jokes and rape jokes are hilarious.

Holy shit this straw-manning is unbelievable, and painfully obvious. If you think you're going to shame people into submission by throwing the word rape around, you're very mistaken, and only making yourself look bad.

It is literally holding us back to furthering the community.

L I T E R A L L Y

[–]taitaisanchez -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

What the hell does this have to do with either my argument or hers? It just sounds like you trying to label anyone you consider opposed to you, and it's really childish.

Because that's my experience. That's where I'm coming from. That if you go into an LGS and there are dudes there that smell like trash, chances of them staring down your blouse or being a jerk is astonishingly high. The smell is bad enough but for a lot of people, it's a pretty good heuristic that you're about to step into a really awful space full of awful people.

We don't know how high they are though, and we don't know why, which is why we need some surveys and numbers. One person arbitrarily deciding that they speak for all women and the one thing they hate keeps all women away is not a reason to start a community wide push towards a change

If you need a survey to find out that there aren't a lot of women in Magic and stop being a jerk because that's one of the many reasons women don't stay in magic, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

L I T E R A L L Y

Yes, it's is in all LITERAL as in this is happening in reality. "Farther relates to distance. Further relates to degree."[1] By being a jerk on this thread, you're being one of the many voices who are making it unpalatable to join and engage the community. That is literally holding back the community.

[1] Thanks Jamal Wallace.

Edit:

Holy shit this straw-manning is unbelievable, and painfully obvious. If you think you're going to shame people into submission by throwing the word rape around, you're very mistaken, and only making yourself look bad.

A straw man is a caricature designed to misrepresent an opposing side. Suggesting that there are stinky magic players and magic players who are jerks to women(edit: and suggesting there's an overlap) isn't a straw man. There's no caricature there. There's no exaggeration. You're being a jerk to a woman RIGHT NOW. Not just me, but the OP as well.

[–]Personifeeder -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

First of all, I'm not being a jerk, I'm disagreeing with you, albeit fairly strongly. If you can't distinguish the difference you have no place at the table of debate. Even more egregious is the fact that you don't seem to be able to distinguish the difference between disagreeing with you on the basis of your arguments and disagreeing with you on the basis of your gender, to which the only advice I can offer is to grow up.

[–]taitaisanchez 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

First of all, I'm not being a jerk, I'm disagreeing with you, albeit fairly strongly.

Do you always start your comments off by gaslighting the person you're disagreeing with?