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Random crits and matchmaking (self.tf2)

secondgenesis が 投稿

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[–][削除されました]  (42子コメント)

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    [–]secondgenesis[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (41子コメント)

    The logic I've always heard was they didn't want to create a game that would allow the experienced players to consistently stomp the new players to the point where they didn't bother learning to play, so random crits were invented to give new players a chance and always a little hope of winning an engagement anyway. Considering they are rewarding damage over time instead of just burst damage to a single opponent, it makes sense. However, if those are the only reasons, I'm not sure why they would leave them in games where only experienced players are involved.

    [–]OccupyGravelpit -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (40子コメント)

    I know I'm in the minority here, but has nobody ever played a quality 12v12 with a bunch of people who know what they're doing?

    The crits don't unbalance those games at all. Crits mostly have the effect of discouraging projectile spam, since getting a low shot to hit ratio means you are much less likely to benefit from a crit. Their function makes as much sense in a game full of noobs as it does with a bunch of veterans.

    [–]Siouxsie2011 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (14子コメント)

    if you spam less, you'll be doing less damage which means your crit chance stays lower - if there's 12 enemy players to shoot rockets at there is no reason to not just spam constantly they can't all hide from it, you'll hurt the enemy way more and get like 5 times more random crits

    [–]OccupyGravelpit -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (13子コメント)

    if you spam less, you'll be doing less damage which means your crit chance stays lower

    That's not how it works. If you 'don't miss'/'don't spam' as a soldier, the rate at which you'll get crits is much higher than someone who spams. That's the whole point of the mechanic -- it rewards people who are efficient with their shots and who press the attack instead of falling back to reload.

    In other words, anti-turtling rewards for people who are good enough to wade into the fray.

    [–]Siouxsie2011 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (12子コメント)

    hey man i guarantee you i am kinda good at this game and actually yes that is how it works (no offense), and i can say for certain you are far better off shooting lots of rockets at the enemies and constantly putting out damage than waiting for the chance to hit one good rocket

    if you haven't done any damage in the last 20 seconds, your crit chance is at the base chance of 2%. so you've got 4 rockets loaded, no enemies injured, and a starting at a 1 in 50 chance each rocket you fire will crit

    if i spam at the enemy constantly with my rockets, doesn't matter if even just 1/3 of them do any damage at all, that's a couple of hundred damage dealt in 20 seconds and now my crit chance is >4%. with 12 players on the enemy team getting the full 800 damage from spam in 20 seconds shouldn't be difficult (as i am good at shooting) that puts my crit chance to 12%.

    your plan, it just doesn't really make sense,

    [–]secondgenesis[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (24子コメント)

    Regardless of their intended function, even in a game where everyone knows what they're doing random crits are irritating at the very least. Example: I've been doing a ton of damage and have someone cornered. They have 2 health but pull out a random crit and escape while I die. Dominated the engagement but Valve decided it wasn't my turn to win it. Example 2: I'm at half health in a melee battle against a medic who is very low on health. I know I can take one hit before I'm in trouble and he will die after 1 hit, so I factor this into my movement so I can prioritize a sure hit as opposed to dodge his. Random crit, med walks away and I'm dead. No point in even calculating your health vs his damage potential if random crits are involved. Best to just spam and jump around and hope you are rewarded instead of him.

    Is the overall balance of the game affected? Assuming both sides have the same playstyle, skill, and class breakdown, no. Is the game outcome affected? Absolutely, especially if one side is holding at the last few seconds and a crocket comes through... cap. Random crits won the game. Hate it when that happens. Theoritically it might all even out over the course of years of playing, but it would be nice to see random only involved at the lower level and luck completely removed at higher levels.

    [–]OccupyGravelpit 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (23子コメント)

    even in a game where everyone knows what they're doing random crits are irritating at the very least.

    I suppose I've had the opposite experience -- those no crits matches get very stalemate-y when you've got a bunch of people who know how to play. As long as we all recognize that it's subjective and not 'game design law'.

    I swear, if TF2 were poker, comp people would want to ban the turn and the river because it's not fair to have any kind of reversal.

    [–]renacentista 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (22子コメント)

    Turn and river are open information. RNG isn't.

    [–]OccupyGravelpit 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (21子コメント)

    Turn and river aren't open information at all -- they're hidden, and then players have to react. That's exactly why people complain -- they change players from having an advantage at the beginning of an interaction to having a disadvantage. Randomly.

    Exactly like a fight you're winning against a soldier who then fires a crit rocket. Good players mitigate the randomness, bad players tend to eat it. And everyone gets entirely lucky once in a while, but for the most part the game is daring you to change your response on the fly when something unexpected happens.

    [–]renacentista 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (20子コメント)

    No, your hand is hidden information. Cards over the table are open information to all players. Poker is about chances, you have to play around it. You can't play a card game without a factor of randomness but you can definitely can play a game without RNG which means it is your skill what is important.

    However, as I have said before random crits can be fun when you play in a pub more or less seriously as well as the random drops in Super Smash Bros, but when it comes to competitive you better turn them off because you want the best players to win not the most lucky ones.

    [–]OccupyGravelpit -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (19子コメント)

    Cards over the table are open information to all players. Poker

    But you have to act before the cards are drawn, which makes them hidden information.

    when it comes to competitive you better turn them off because you want the best players to win not the most lucky ones.

    I completely disagree. Without the randomness, an entirely different group of people will be 'best'. With randomness, the people who I consider to be the best (people who can improvise and respond quickly) will win.

    People need to admit that different systems prize entirely different kinds of play. You wouldn't call 'no turn or river poker' the more competitive form, even if it would be considerably less random. It's a broken line of thinking that's caught on in some gamer communities. More random =/= less competitive, and vice versa. It's a sweet spot.

    [–]renacentista 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (18子コメント)

    I just want to clarify something about card games and FPS games:

    FPS games should reward the abilities to know the environment, how to position yourself in the map, how you use the height advantage, how classes counter each other, predict enemies movements, know when to attack and when to retrieve, etc. FPS is not about calculate chances in your head.

    Card games (poker, Magic, etc) reward the skill to play around the information you have: what cards you have in hands, what cards are still in the deck, what cards my opponents can have in hand, chances of card that act in my favour on top of the deck, bets, turns and many psychological factors.

    While you can build your FPS around RNG and chances I believe it doesn't encourage the essence of FPS games themselves.