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Stacey Dash tells Meredith that the wage gap issue is an excuse, and that women should pursue opportunities to earn higher pay if they want it. Your thoughts? (youtube.com)

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[–][削除されました]  (52子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (51子コメント)

    I probably should walk away from your boring STEM-fetishization, but I'll bite. Why are jobs like social work and teaching our goddamn children so underpaid if it's only "useless" people who don't get paid what they deserve? This is not necessarily a gendered issue, but I do want to know why certain fields that women dominate - fields that are extremely important to the foundation of our society - pay like shit. While we're at it, we could also talk about firefighters and other emergency workers who can't even afford to live in the places they protect. We have a values problem, not necessarily a gender one.

    [–]thetemporalvoid 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    people who don't get paid what they deserve?

    Noone gets paid what they 'deserve', everyone gets paid what they're willing to accept, and what someone else is willing to pay them.

    Social work and teaching aren't paid highly because they are, for whatever reason, not respected or prioritised enough that people are willing to pay more for these services, and they don't (usually) require advanced qualifications that might act to limit supply.

    And it's not a universal thing - look at China or Korea or Japan - teachers (I don't know about social workers) are very highly respected and paid comparatively much more than their counterparts in the US.

    [–]FirstHit 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Basic supply and demand. Being a teacher is "easy" to do and many people can do it. Same with being a waiter/waitress. By easy I don't mean fun, I mean a lot of people are capable of doing the job. Not many people are capable of being engineers(yet)/willing to be engineers. Being a janitor is important, otherwise we would have shit and disease everywhere, but anyone can do it, so basic supply and demand lowers the price.

    We don't have a value problem. It's not hard to teach kindergarten, I can even do that, but ask me to build a phone that can charge in under an hour and I have no fucking clue what I'm doing.

    Basically, if only one person can do Job A and 50 people can do job B guess and demand for job A and B is just me, then I can get Job B done cheap but not Job A.

    [–]neergl 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    They're not underpaid. They're paid exactly what they agreed to sell their labor for. The fact of the matter is that there are simply more people willing and able to do those jobs.

    If you feel that teachers should be paid more, awesome. Put your money where your mouth is. Start cutting some checks.

    [–]BetheyBoop -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    What they agreed to sell their labor for - when you have few options and you need to take care of yourself you sell what you have for what you can get.

    More people willing and able to do those jobs - your getting this from where? Social work and nursing have experienced major demand for new workers with little increase in pay

    Put your money where your mouth is - and send it where? If I could pay to fix this problem I'd cut a check right now.

    Are these fields paid little because things like people skills, management and collaborative work are seen as female and therefore paid less? Why are men in these fields experiencing the "glass escalator" where they are promoted rapidly and paid more? No no, it's definently all in our heads.

    [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Put your money where your mouth is. Start cutting some checks.

    Why do you assume I don't?

    [–]neergl 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Do you?

    [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Does donating to public schools count?

    [–]neergl 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Do those donations go into the teachers' pockets? If you want teachers to be paid more you are free to pay them yourself.

    [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Oh yeah, one person is going to pay all the nation's teachers. That will really revolutionize the education system, won't it? Stupid response.

    [–]neergl 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No, one person is not going to be able to do that. No one is suggesting that that's a reasonable solution.

    [–]wing19 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

    Teachers make what they make because they work for what is offered, and the job offers huge lifestyle benefits. They also get 10-14 weeks of time off. You know how you can tell if teachers get paid enough? Go to a school. If there are teachers there, you can conclude that the school is offering enough for them to show up to work.

    Same with firefighters. Where else are you going to get a job that'll pay you to take naps while you wait for something to happen, and be able to run a landscaping company with your time off? Do you know why most fire departments have anti-nepotism policies now? Because for years Sully, Fitzy, and Old Patty O'Connor knew it was a pretty fucking good racket for a guy who didn't want to go to college, and work their asses off to get their Son or nephew a job.

    [–][削除されました]  (37子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (36子コメント)

      its easier.

      Really tho? Are you aware of exactly what these people do?

      Require more schooling than a petroleum engineer

      I believe you can be an engineer with a bachelors. Most teachers need a masters to get reliable work.

      Require more intelligence than a theoretical physicist

      Theoretical physics is not necessarily an easy field to get a job in, nor is it something I would consider "useful" in any immediate sense. Really the only jobs for theoretical physicists are in academia. A lot like philosophers.

      Require more skill than a neurosurgeon

      Can't argue with that. But your average code monkey does not have the skill of a neurosurgeon, and I do not think their job is especially harder than managing a bunch of children and trying to give them a good education in a fucked up world. So why do they typically make twice as much?

      less demanding job

      You really don't have a clue, huh?

      I have a tech job, and I would take it over teaching or social work any. fucking. day.

      [–]beIIe-and-sebastian 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (7子コメント)

      STEM jobs are paid more not because they're harder than teaching, i agree. But because they create more wealth. A team of people can create a piece of software or develop a product and generate millions or billions in revenue. Companies see a return on their investment and pay handsomely for it.

      Teachers, not so much.

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      STEM jobs are paid more not because they're harder than teaching, i agree. But because they create more wealth.

      Which is why it makes me cry inside to see my generation being pushed away from social good because wealth.

      [–]Throwawatrid 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      and here we come to the real villain, not sexism, but wonderful, greed propelled capitalism!

      You have leveled up!

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      You caught me. I am a socialist.

      [–]Throwawatrid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      I wasn't being sarcastic.

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Cool! In that case, peace, comrade.

      [–]FirstHit 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      So if you are saying tech jobs are better why don't teachers get a job in tech? Because they can't because they don't have the skills.

      If teachers made more than engineers, engineers would become teachers until the price lowered.

      It's basic economics. They should seriously teach this shit in high school.

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      You go away. I've talked to you before, and you are in no place to be calling anyone clueless.

      [–]FirstHit 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Took out the clueless part, was unnecessary.

      [–]Throwawatrid 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (21子コメント)

      Yes it is easier. My business partners wife is a teacher and the three of us regularly joke that her job is ridiculously simple and easy. She makes fun of the teachers that complain, while she collects her $35,000 lump sum to do nothing all summer.

      "Reliable" work is not all work. Demand being higher for engineering work is not a matter of sexism. If anything its proof that women are electing not to pursue a career where they'd be valued more. (Nah just say its a mans fault)

      Theoretical physics was a bad example, fair point. Lets just use petroleum engineering again. Two of my best friends went into Petroleum engineering (because the unemployment rates don't exist and the pay is godly) and the shit they can do in their heads is staggering to me.

      Programming is harder then handing a bunch of kids and teaching them from a pre-designed class with a bunch of pre-written textbooks. But arguing that is pointless as its a matter of opinion-vs-opinion. Another aspect of this that programming is not a field thats been around as long as teaching. There are WAY less people who are capable of programming than there are people capable of caring for children.

      I run my own business, I taught a leather working class to 11th graders for 3 years, that's obviously not the same as general teaching but it is teaching and it was indescribably easier than running my own business.

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (19子コメント)

      Demand being higher for engineering work is not a matter of sexism. If anything its proof that women are electing not to pursue a career where they'd be valued more. (Nah just say its a mans fault)

      This isn't an argument I made at all. So. Get the chip off your shoulder for a minute. Nobody else here is even saying that. Smart people don't think that.

      I would also argue based on some of your points that there is a self-perpetuating cycle attracting bad/lazy teachers. It is a shame because teachers have some incredible power to do great things, but I think the low pay attracts a lower standard of teacher and gives even capable people less incentive to do well. It's true, to do bare-minimum teaching probably takes way less than bare-minimum petroleum engineering. However, if teachers were more valued for the power they could hold in society, we would hold them to a higher standard and pay them more accordingly. As a result, we would have better teachers, get better people going into teaching (because, again, who but the most passionate people would go into a shitty-paying field when they are smart enough to go into a better-paying field?), and see an all around improvement in education.

      [–]Throwawatrid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (18子コメント)

      Okay, you make a valid point.

      Paying any field higher attracts a higher quality of people to that field.

      The question is do you think it will ever be economically sound to invest $100k a year into someone to teach our kids addition and subtraction? The job is just not that demanding.

      Do you think it'll ever be more economically sound than it is to pay $50k a year for that job and $150k (as opposed to $100k) for the genius at NASA trying to advance our civilization?

      [–]BetheyBoop 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      If you ever want more geniuses with good educations at NASA, paying teachers to get them there is probably a sound ass investment.

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (16子コメント)

      Have you ever tried to teach one kid addition and subtraction? And not your special snowflake genius nephew or whatever. An average kid. Have you tried teaching thirty of them at once? While also keeping their behavior in check, dealing with angry parents and issues at home? While staying on the lookout for symptoms of abuse and neglect? Saying something is easy is easy.

      the genius at NASA trying to advance our civilization?

      Of course, of course, of course innovation is important and it is necessary. But in order to advance our civilization we also need to maintain its foundation. People who develop technology do nothing to determine how that technology is actually integrated into society. They tend to be detached from the same society that they are trying to improve. They do not necessarily determine how it will be made affordable for the majority of people. They do not have to ask about the implications it will have for future generations. Good scientists ought to have substantial training in the social sciences and in philosophy in order to maximize the effectiveness of their work. They must be taught from an early age to see all the facets of things and to understand the value and reality of their society and fellow people. This is the job of the teachers, the social workers, the community organizers. This is the philosophy of the liberal arts, and I believe it is correct.

      [–]Throwawatrid 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (15子コメント)

      Paying elementary school teachers six figures to teach kids addition and subtraction is not going to get us to mars faster.

      And no, I'm sorry, I realize its "difficult" to teach 30 little shit 6 year olds but it is not that hard. As evidenced by the fact that 99.9% of the population can add and subtract just fine regardless of how much we pay kindergarten teachers.

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

      six figures

      There are, like, a whole bunch of numbers between what teachers make and six figures.

      not going to get us to mars faster.

      Getting us to Mars should not be our top priority, and the fact that you think it is is concerning.

      [–]Diva Cup CocktailsBlitheCynic 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      You also ignored my point that teaching kids to add and subtract is far from all that teachers do.

      [–]Dragonfly1018 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That should be business partner's wife, btw & yes I am a teacher. While I wouldn't call my job as hard say, as working in a coal mine or something it definitely isn't "easy". I didn't go into teaching because I wanted an easy job nor was I unqualified for or not able to receive an education or training to do something else. I decided to teach because I wanted to and because it suits me. I always find if interesting when people comment on how "easy" the job is, really? Well if that's so why are we constantly having to increase class sizes due to a lack of teachers? Why did school districts in California lower kindergarten class size to 20 students per class have to increase the classes again due to lack of teachers? If there are tons of people who are "capable" of caring for children, where are they? Why are preschools in the state at maximum ratio for a two year old class room in a lot of places? That ratio is 12 twos to 1 teacher, btw. Yes, contrary to popular belief you cannot just walk off the street and. Be hired at a school, not even a preschool, but you actually have to have college classes in Early Childhood. So, exactly how is any of this "easy"?

      [–]Linooney 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Actually, I'm pretty sure the median pay for Kindergarten teachers and your average programmer aren't off that much. A quick Google search shows me that it's about 54k vs. 59k.

      [–]dftxc 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      59k is horrendously low for a programmer. That's what you would expect for an entry level job in the field.

      [–]Bobsdirtydonut 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      54k for a kindergarten teacher? Where is this, MoneyLand?

      [–]watda80 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I'm not a teacher, but I've had experience teaching kids. I'm a creative person so I have a lot of fun with it. If teaching was a high paying job, I would have pursued it. I would love it.

      Teaching is...how shall I put this...a "natural" profession. You get to interact with people, move around, get some fresh air. You get a lot of freedom. You're the captain of your day, you decide what happens.

      Most of the high-paying jobs are entirely unnatural. You're a rat in a cage. You're staring at spreadsheets in your cubicle while your soul is slowly sucked out of your eyeballs, day after day.

      That's why teachers don't make as much money. It's too rewarding. The soul-sucking professions have to pay more to entice people. That's sad, really. I would have made a better teacher than most of the ones I had. A lot of people who would have made great teachers don't become teachers. Ambition gets in the way.

      It would be a great experiment to pay teachers more. However, you could say goodbye to the current crop of teachers. They'd be booted out by better ones.