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[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 -18 ポイント-17 ポイント  (66子コメント)

This is why we need the universal DH.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (34子コメント)

Finally, someone gets it. It's like I've been saying, we need the DH for both leagues, we need designated runners that run for your good hitters, so they don't get injured running, we need designated fielders for your bad fielders so that you can still bat them but they don't have to play the field, and we need designated pitchers so your good pitchers don't hurt their arms pitching.

[–]Detroit Tigerslazyfoot10 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here come the strawmans...

[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (9子コメント)

What would you do if this was Harvey? Pitchers should pitch and be great at that. No use in having one of the best pitchers get hurt doing something he doesn't train to do.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (8子コメント)

He doesn't train to run?

[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

He doesnt train to run out of the box after swinging the bat no. He never hit in the minors, and many NL teams in spring training use the DH to get position players more at bats. Running out of the box is different than stepping on the treadmill and slowly cranking it up to 6 mph.

[–]NY MetsDavy_Grolton 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Why would you think that a pitcher would not train to run out of the box when it's something he'll have to do almost every game?

[–]Texas Rangers-dru- -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We already have those things. Defensive substitutions, pitch runners, etc. Are you advocating expanding the roster?

[–]New York YankeesNJ_Yankees_Fan -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Would you rather have your pitcher hitting or a chance to have an extra-bat in the lineup in Game 7 of the World Series?

[–]New York Metssickgrof 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (20子コメント)

Pitcher hitting, 100%. You play the fucking field, you hit at the fucking plate, plain and simple.

[–]Kansas City RoyalsCWSwapigans 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The pitchers don't hit in either league. Only one league still makes them walk out to the batter's box.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Then maybe pitchers should work on hitting a little more.

[–]Cleveland Indiansthedeejus -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Cool so you're against pinch hitters then since they don't field right? And you're against relief pitchers, since they don't bat? They're abominations too right?

[–]New York Metssickgrof 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Pinch hitters are a totally different concept, it's ridiculous that that's where you're reaching for this argument. Also, your relief pitcher argument is a joke, because once they enter the game, they enter the lineup.

[–]Cleveland Indiansthedeejus -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Right but if they don't bat then that's just as bad as DH right? Cause they don't field and hit?

[–]New York Metssickgrof 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not even close to the same, because then they're done for the game. If you want to avoid having your pitcher bat by pinch-hitting for the pitcher's spot every time it comes up and putting a new pitcher in the game each time, have at it.

[–]Texas Rangers-dru- -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

New rule: If you bring in a reliever they MUST bat at least once. IT'S ONLY FAIR

[–]New York YankeesNJ_Yankees_Fan -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

That's dumb. You want a better hitter in the lineup. This is the only argument against the DH, and it's still dumb.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

No, you want a better hitter in the lineup. My biggest problem with people who support the DH is that they always think the beliefs they hold are the beliefs everyone should hold.

"You want more offense."

"You want a better hitter."

"You don't need strategy."

[–]New York HighlandersColinMichaelRisley -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I just don't understand why someone would wanna watch an automatic out almost every time, but I guess that's just me. I guess watching a pitcher homer every once in a blue moon makes up for it?

[–]St. Louis CardinalsBromCJ 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

CAUSE IT'S NOT A FUCKING AUTOMATIC OUT!

Madbum had more grandslams last year than Jeter did his entire career. Waino broke up a no-hitter. Kershaw hit a RBI triple. These are examples of people not taking the pitcher seriously and get fucked by it.

[–]New York HighlandersColinMichaelRisley -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess you ignored the part where I said "Almost" every time. My point is, let's be honest everybody know that the vast majority of the time the pitcher is going to be an automatic out, so the argument for the DH is that it adds a more exciting layer of offense. A few examples of pitchers hitting doesn't make up for entire seasons worth of pitchers not hitting.

[–]New York YankeesNJ_Yankees_Fan -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

But the argument against it is that you don't want specialists. If that's the case, you shouldn't have relievers or pinch-hitters or defensive replacements.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My argument is not that I don't want specialists, I don't know how you reached that idea. My argument is that I don't want the DH.

[–]Texas Rangers-dru- -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Should every player on a roster also have to pitch?

[–]New York Metssickgrof 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

You know your viewpoint is weak when these are the types of arguments you're reaching for.

[–]Texas Rangers-dru- -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Your argument is every player that plays the field should bat, but pitchers don't just play the field, they pitch. Lumping them under the umbrella of being 'on the field' is purposely deceptive. The only arguments anti-DH types have is tradition, strawman, and slippery slope. All logical fallacies.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lol yes, those are the only arguments we have. Just saying that makes it apparent that talking with you isn't worth the time or effort.

[–]Texas Rangers-dru- 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh come on. I am ready to hear it, I am open minded. Pitchers don't even take batting seriously.

[–]St. Louis CardinalsBromCJ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, not even close.

[–]Pittsburgh PiratesImBowser 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (30子コメント)

Uh, no thanks.

[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (29子コメント)

Lets remember that the best hitting pitchers last year were the Dodgers with a 425 OPS. Why do you want that? Pirates pitchers this season have a .223 OPS on an already poor hitting team.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (25子コメント)

You realize that wanting more offense is not a universal opinion, right?

[–]Kansas City RoyalsCWSwapigans -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

To me it's not about wanting more offense, it's that it's a farce to say the pitchers hit. It's more like they stand in the batter's box praying their bat contacts the ball.

Similarly, people say the NL is more strategic because of it, which is technically true, but the strategic decisions made are always so bad. You can't say your league is strategic and then let a pitcher bat with 2 men on base in the 6th so that he can come back out and pitch to two or three more guys before he gets pulled.

[–]Chicago Cubsdrhfist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I like your argument. I once was anti-DH, but I came around during the time Ted Lilly was a Cub. I have never seen a man more disinterested in and afraid of an at-bat. Completely hopeless. The way I see it, there is not a pitcher on earth who will be held at an NL team's AAA farm club because, while he has three great pitches and stamina, he needs to work on his hitting or bunting. There is literally zero professional incentive to work on hitting for a pitcher at any level of development. On the flip side, no one is drafted as a DH. There's an expectation that a hitter can play a position, if poorly.

The arguments against the DH don't all appeal to tradition, but many do. I think competitive balance outweighs tradition. Beyond the micro level of day to day competition, the AL is at a permanent distinct competitive advantage in roster construction. They can offer older players or those with riskier health histories contracts more easily than an NL team because they can put the guy at DH.

The AL also can rest star players more frequently by slotting one at DH. This is fan-friendly, as it allows the audience to see the star player at. least hit a few times, rather than have a full day off or a PH opportunity. While this is a secondary issue, pro sports ultimately are a competition for the public's entertainment dollar.

[–]San Fransico GiantsFluttertwi 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The instance you described is an example of a manager having to make a tough decision... Which is exactly the kind of strategy that's one of the positive things about no-DH ball.

Edit: in other words, just because a manager made a mistake doesn't mean I can't say my league is more strategic. In fact, it's EVIDENCE that my league is more strategic.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You realize that is strategy, though, right? You might say it's bad strategy, but bad strategy is still strategy.

[–]Kansas City RoyalsCWSwapigans 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yeah, it definitely is, it's just not the kind of strategy I enjoy watching. When a group of fat 40-something office workers plays basketball it's athletic, but it's not the kind of athleticism I want to tune in for.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

strategy I enjoy

[–]Kansas City RoyalsCWSwapigans 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, that's the nature of opinions, they can only ever be your own.

I'm sure there are folks who enjoy pitchers trotting up there and making a mockery of the sport while managers strategize around it like a 4-year-old smearing Jello on a chess board, but I'm not in that camp.

[–]Kansas City RoyalsCWSwapigans 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You realize that is strategy, though, right?

Sorry, I had to go back to this. This was your response to me wring the text below? Was there doubt in your mind?

Similarly, people say the NL is more strategic because of it, which is technically true

[–]New York YankeesNJ_Yankees_Fan -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'd rather have a guy who can hit with the bases loaded and two outs in the fifth inning in a 1-1 game already be in the lineup rather than having to either waste what may be my only opportunity to score or having to take out my pitcher because of one AB.

[–]NY MetsDavy_Grolton 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If your only opportunity to score is in the 5th inning you're probably not winning a whole lot of games.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd rather

[–]Atlanta BravesSidBreamTrackTeam 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Duh, that means everyone!

[–]St. Louis CardinalsBromCJ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]New York YankeesNJ_Yankees_Fan 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well played

[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

It isn't more offense. Its more competitive at bats that give you a better chance to win the game.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

They give you a better chance when both teams get the same "advantage"? How does that even begin to make sense to you?

[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Having a better DH or better hitters on your team.

[–]New York Metssickgrof 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Your train of thought is so ridiculous I genuinely can't even follow it.

[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

David Ortiz had a 1.037 OPS in 2006 with 54 home runs. The worst team in the AL, KC, had a .779 OPS from their DH spot. Who had the advantage? The Mets could go out and sign better hitters than the Braves and have an advantage. It doesnt need to be a permanent DH but now in the NL its all about defensive specialists who can sub out a regular when they need to pinch hit for the pitcher. EDIT: Their only value is that they can field and double switched to not necessarily come up again in the end of the game.

[–]NY MetsDavy_Grolton 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

How would it give you a better chance if both teams have it?

[–]Seattle MarinersTonality 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Both teams have a first baseman, but are you saying all first basemen are equal? You pay for the good players, regardless of position, including DH. Just look at the Mariners last year vs. this year. Morales vs Cruz? clear difference in ability.

[–]NY MetsDavy_Grolton 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Except he said having a DH gives you a better chance to win the game, not having a better DH than the other team.

[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Having a better DH or better hitters on your team.

This is what I said. Don't know how that is interpreted in one team having a DH and the other not.

[–]NY MetsDavy_Grolton 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's what you said in the second comment

[–]Boston Red Soxredsox19934 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Having a better DH or better hitters on your team.

[–]Baltimore Oriolesisestrex 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's like trying to offer water to a man in the desert, "no thanks, I'm used to not having anything to drink"

[–]Seattle MarinersTonality 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right, it's pretty ridiculous.

[–]New York YankeesHangTheElephant 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's true. NL fans get so worked up about preserving their tradition. Let them have it.