MODs and Steam

DevilDemyx · 3 時間前

This comment by /u/Martel732 raises five well thought out points that I think capture the essence of our concerns accurately.

It is changing a system that has been working fine. Modders aren't an oppressed class working without benefit. Modders choose to work on mods for many reasons: fun, practice, boredom, the joy of creating something. And gamers appreciate their contributions. While, some gamers may feel entitled most understand that if a modder is unable to continue the mod may be abandoned. Donations may or may not help but they are an option. This system has for years made PC gaming what it is. Modding in my opinion is the primary benefit of PC gaming over console. Changing a functional system is dangerous and could have unintended consequences.

Now that people are paying for mods they will feel entitled for these mods to continue working. If a free mod breaks and isn't supported that is fine because there is no obligation for it to continue working. If someone pays though they will expect the mod to be updated and continue working as the base game is updated. Furthermore, abandoned but popular mods are often revived by other people; if these mods are paid then the original creator may not want people to profit off of updated versions of their mod.

Related to the above paid mods may reduce cooperative modding. Many mods will borrow elements from other mods; usually with permission. Having paid mods will complicate things. Someone who makes a paid mod will be unlikely to share his/her work with others. What if someone freely share's his/her mod and someone incorporates it into a paid mod? Does the first mod's owner deserve compensation, does the second modder deserve the full revenue. This makes modding more politically complicated and may reduce cooperation.

This may reduce mods based off of copyrighted works. There is a very good chance that any paid mod based off of a copyrighted work will be shutdown. Modders could still release free mods of this nature but it complicates the issue. Many mods based on copyrighted materials borrow (usually with permission) from other mods to add improvements. If these other mods are paid then the original creators likely won't let them use it. Additional many modders may now ignore copyrighted mods in order to make mods that they may profit on.

Steam/the developer are taking an unfairly large portion of the profit. Steam and the Developers are offering nothing new to the situation. Steam is already hosting the mods and the developer already made the game. They now wish to take 75% of all profit from the mod. If the market gets flooded by low-quality paid mods, the modders will likely make very little and the quality of the game will not be increased. However, Steam and the Developers will make money off of no work on there part.

EDIT: So this got a lot more attention than I expected and someone even gilded my comment. I usually dislike edits like this BUT if you agree with the concerns listed here please note that I didn't originally write them, so if you want to show your appreciation also go to the original comment linked at the top and upvote/gild that guy!

THESALTEDPEANUT · 3 時間前

What do you think about a donate button for mods?

Not_dr_phil · 3 時間前

Considering valve is a company that owes many of its early games to mods, do you think that if you had to pay 5 dollars for the original Counter Strike, or Dota mod, would they have ever taken off?

Edit: Also, whos decision was it to start this system? Bethesda, valve, or the mod makers themselves?

Have you approached any other companies regarding this?

Happless · 3 時間前

Why was it that a "pay-to-download" system was used over a "donate" button, such as the ones seen on the Nexus website?

Mace_Dragon · 3 時間前

What sort of quality control can we expect from Valve aside from those enforced by the emerging community?

EDIT: With this time gap, I guess I can clarify my question. What's the approval system going to be for turning a mod into a Paid Mod? What is the role of Valve in getting a mod approved and what is the community's responsibility? Is Valve or the community combing through mod files to verify originality or plagiarism? (And I mean texture files, hair files, original assests, etc.)

Thisbymaster · 2 時間前

If you are looking for Gabe's Comments you will need to look at his profile as he is getting downvoted so much.

Pirate43 · 3 時間前

Hiya Gabe,

I think this forbes about the paid mods issue does a decent job creating a case against the monetization of mods. Primarily they are that:

The split is completely unreasonable. The fact that 45% of the profit from a mod goes to the developer of the game only encourages the release of broken and unfinished games because the developer will get paid when a member of the community fixes it for them.
There's no way to prevent people from purchasing a mod, and reselling it at a cheaper price or even giving it away for free.
People mod games for the love of the game and not to make money from it. Not only will "$5 sword skins" stigmatize the modding community, but they can overshadow the quality mods that actually expand games in a meaningful way.

What was the rationality behind the current implementation of mod monetization?

EDIT: The point about already-happening mod-piracy is partially incorrect, but the end-result that it will be rampant still stands.

NexusDark0ne · 3 時間前

Hi Gabe, Robin, owner of Nexus Mods here. Sorry to hear about the issue with your eye.

Can you make a pledge that Valve are going to do everything to prevent, and never allow, the "DRMification" of modding, either by Valve or developers using Steam's tools, and prevent the concept of mods ONLY being allowed to be uploaded to Steam Workshop and no where else, like ModDB, Nexus, etc.?

Edit, for clarity in the question:

For example, if Bethesda wanted to make modding for Fallout 4/TES 6 limited to just Steam Workshop, or even worse, just the paid Workshop, would Valve veto this and prevent it from happening?

joepasquale · 3 時間前

any plans on reviewing the system?

Pylons · 3 時間前

There are really a few issues I have with this, but these are the two most pressing:

1: Adding a profit incentive will discourage collaboration on the large scale that currently exists in Skyrim.

Modding skyrim isn't about one mod, or even a dozen great mods, it's about 50-100 small mods working together to create a new experience. The only reason this was able to happen is because of the open collaboration between mod authors - helping eachother create patches to prevent conflicts, to even creating entire patchers designed to add new functionality to the game. Will this happen in a system where paid mods are the norm? Will people be as willing to share information when they benefit from using it only exclusively in their mod?

2: The community wasn't brought in on this discussion at ALL.

According to Chesko, this all started with an email from Valve with a Bethesda employee CC'd, and he had to sign an NDA - this was the exact wrong way to roll out this change. People are surprised, there's confusion, certain modders have become almost hated and had their reputations ruined overnight. You really needed to bring the community in on the discussion of monetizing mods.

All in all, I'm most worried about the pandora's box this opens with regard to future bethesda games - if a motive for profit exists from the beginning, will the mod scene for Fallout 4 or the Elder Scrolls 6 be as inventive and high-quality as the one for Skyrim is?

the_man_Sam · 3 時間前

I think that this whole debacle has created a split in the Skyrim community with modders angry at each other for "selling out" and the players mad at the modders because we see it as a cash grab, and everybody's pissed at you and Bethesda. The community plus the mods have kept this game alive for four years and now we're all mad at each other and I feel this will be a clusterfuck to the end. Whenever that will be. However you end this, I hope you do it for the right reasons.

Timestogo · 3 時間前

Isn't the 75% cut seen as a bit high?

Also, there were reports of discussions of mods being deleted or not being accessible, are negative discussions being censored?

AOMRocks20 · 1 時間前

gabe dude i don't think people like this idea

Yehaw4Jihad · 3 時間前

The paid Workshop banner is gone from the front page, then if you actually navigate your way to the mods, you will find the discussions censored.

There is also multiple screenshots of people getting banned from making any negative comments towards this system. (I won't post those for the sake of sticking to facts and screenshots I personally took or know to be true.)

So tell me, please Mr. Newell how ~~"open"~~ is this supposed to look to us gamers?

Edit: more pics

simjanes2k · 3 時間前

My only question is:

Did you guys really not see the backlash coming? Like really, not at all?

TheAscended · 3 時間前

Coming from someone who has modded games including skyrim... Modding is something that should continue to be a free community driven structure. Adding money into the equation makes it a business not a community. With all the drama that has happened it is clear that this will poison modding in general and will have the opposite effect on modding communities than intended.

Mogazee · 3 時間前

I've supported Valve for as long as you guys existed, backed almost ever single move you made and blindly trusted the company to do justice to PC gamers.

With that said, I can't help but feel betrayed by this recent move.

Does Valve, and you in particular, not see what this does to the PC gaming scene as a whole? Mods are already being removed from Nexus in order to be exclusive to Steam, which while being very good for you guys its literally one of the worst things for the consumer.

Why in the world couldn't you guys simply add a "Donate" button instead? I REALLY want to believe that you guys will remove the system and instead instate of "Donate" button but I'm honestly losing every hope of this ever happening.

Do you guys honestly not see just how much this damages the PC scene?

Protosega · 3 時間前

http://i.imgur.com/sTr546k.gif

doucheplayer · 3 時間前

yo when is steam going to get 24/7 dedicated customer support?

Blunderthug · 1 時間前

Can you just... change it back?

mcdonaldsculture · 2 時間前

Hi Gabe. In this thread mod creator Chesko detailled how Valve has taken away his control over his own creations.

He used stolen content from another mod in his paid mod, and claims that Valve told him that this was okay to do. The backlash from this has made him try and take down his mods but he reports Valve will not let him do this, to his own mods (albeit with some of other people's assets in them).

Just to be clear, the conversation reported by him was as follows:

[Valve] Officer Mar 25 @ 4:47pm Usual caveat: I am not a lawyer, so this does not constitute legal advice. If you are unsure, you should contact a >lawyer. That said, I spoke with our lawyer and having mod A depend on mod B is fine--it doesn't matter if mod A >is for sale and mod B is free, or if mod A is free or mod B is for sale.

So my questions are:

1: Does Valve indeed condone the unpermitted use of content from free mods in paid mods?

2: Did Valve indeed take control away from Chesko over his own paid mods?

Pinstar · 3 時間前

Mods are works done by the community of their own volition without expectation of payment. A game's value is increased by the presence of a robust modding community, as its longevity and re-playability are increased at 0 cost to the developer.

Now you want to take these mods, give 45% of the money paid for them to the developer for something that was already enhancing their game and thus making it more attractive to people who might have not yet purchased it.

Example:

Crusader Kings II was released by Paradox Interactive. While it does has some paid DLC (made by the developers) it is also open to non-paid mods. One of the most popular mods out there is the Game of Thrones mod, which transforms the game from a game about Europe to the fictional world presented in the novels.

To a person who doesn't really care about Medieval Europe, but who might be a fan of GoT, this mod has suddenly made this game a more attractive purchase option. Thus, at no cost to the developer, the potential market for this game has increased.

The moment you put payments into a mod, then fights over whom is using who's assets begin. Many mods are created using derived and shared assets from other mods. They aren't done to steal from the original, but merely add to it.

Say I make a custom shield mod, and somebody makes a custom shield store mod, that uses my shield (among many other assets). Can the shield store mod be sold without my consent? On the flipside, can I object to the entire shield store mod on the basis that a small portion of it borrows my asset? When you consider the hundreds of different assets that can be used between mods, ownership issues become a mess. A mess that does not exist if mods are free.

Please: Reverse this policy, and add a donation button to the mods. See exactly what Nexus is doing for the mods hosted on their site. That would make things right in my opinion.

(Edit: A letter)

GabeNewellBellevue · 3 時間前

I'm sitting in a coffee shop for the next two hours, so I will try to get as many issues addressed in that time as I can.

JesusofBorg · 1 時間前

Two days ago there was no demand for paid mods. Outside of your little secret meetings and emails the idea of paying for mods was considered absolutely absurd. This has been proven time and time again with things like Mod Donations as well as The Sims. Nobody donates to modders because nobody wants to pay for mods. Nobody buys the Sims paid mods because nobody wants to pay for mods. In fact, where the Sims is concerned, there is a large piracy movement in place specifically to steal the paid mods so that the demand for free mods is filled.

So here we have a community that is so adamant about mods being free that they are willing to steal them to keep them that way. And then suddenly, under the guise of "Making Modding Better!", you begin supplying something for which there is literally a negative demand. And upon doing so you generate a backlash so big that you've got a petition with 100,000+ signatures on it saying "Stop this now!", along with multiple threads in multiple forums with thousands of participants also saying "Stop this now!", and yet your decision is to keep it in place and "see how it works out"?

And on top of that massive negative backlash, you've also got people stealing other's mods and putting them behind your workshop paywall. So not only have you begun supplying something for which there is no demand, not only have you driven a wedge into PC Gaming, but you've opened the door to piracy, theft, and fraud.

How, exactly, are these the actions of a good or generous person/entity?

kaysn · 2 時間前

25% cut and no remittance until $100 is made. That doesn't sound like it's to support the modder now is it?
Respected modders have sunk into money grabbing leeches. Pop up adds in a mod of all things!
A lot of known modders are leaving and being replaced by money-grabbing opportunists.
Modders issuing take down notices on fellow modders that used some assets from their mod. Most mods are co-dependent. Already, big names of Skyrim mods have been sullied.
Content theft. What's to stop a random user from going over at Nexus and re-uploading them in the Workshop?
Mod piracy has become a thing. All paid mods listed at the Workshop have already been re-uploaded somewhere else.
Mods in Nexus being pulled because of said piracy. Or re-uploaded to the Workshop for money.
Censoring. Bans, removing the ability to rate paid mods, locking out paid mods' threads.
No support when a mod breaks the game. We have to ask the author to please fix it.
A 24 hour refund, really? It takes a whole lot longer to see if a mod breaks something.

The community is now a wreck.

DukeSigmundOfAgatha · 2 時間前

Gabe this comment will be long and I don't know if you'll respond, but here it is anyway.

This issue of monitization creates so many points of abuse and demonstrates a firm lack of ethics on the part of everyone involved.

1. There is no one who benefits from these transactions other than you or Bethesda.

You claim that this is helping modders by giving them a revenue stream, but what you don't address is that this turns previously hobbyist work into a product.
As a product, consumers have expectations (rightfully so) that products they purchase must work and be worth the amount charged. This means that these paid modders will be the only ones who shoulder the burden and backlash anytime something in their mod either breaks or conflicts with another mod. Thus these modders for a measly 25% are roped into doing massive amounts of required updating and patching or or will have their reputation dragged through the mud by angry consumers.
These products, which are effectively outsourced DLC, place all the fiscal responsibility onto the modders who shoulder the start up cost, before they can begin selling the mod in the hope of recouping their losses. Meanwhile Bethesda and you (Valve) simply profit of these works which you invested nothing into. This encourages cheaper more shallow mods from those who begin with the intent of making a "career" off of modding.
Any problems that due arise as a result of a bad or broken mod now are negatively harming a paid consumer. Whereas before, if a mod broke something it was understandable due to its free nature, now mods must be ensured as working correctly or you are selling a defective product.
By taking a 75% cut of these mods you and Bethesda are effectively asking a modder to pay you to add value to your platform and Bethesda's game
The "returns" you offer punish the consumer because any money put into the Steam store that they refund is locked within the store replacing it with your "funny money". I realize that there is not a way for you to truly refund the purchaser without incurring bank fees, but this system is abusive.

2. The modding community has always working in such a way where most extensive/impressive mods were the result of massive amounts of collaborations between the modding community.

This has already occurred as a problem with Skyrim where Art of the Catch was using another modders work as a basis for its own.
By adding money into the equation there will now be infighting and paranoia by those modders who want to get paid versus those who expect their products to be free and don't want their work used as the basis for someone else's paid mod.
Additionally in the case of such a widespread support mod such as Skyrim Script Extender (they are choosing not to sell it), it would be unfair for it to be sold because doing so would require every consumer to purchase it in order to purchase any other mod that required it thus increasing the amount which players are being forced to spend. Additionally it increases the effective price of all these secondary mods which again, only benefits you and Bethesda.

3. There is very little value in many of the products being offered versus the game's official content.

The 2 major official expansions for Skyrim released at a price point of $20. The shadow scale set mod is being sold for $2. This means that I could buy one suit of armor for 1/10th the price of an expansion build by a professional team which has new characters, quests, voice acting, items, abilities, (in the case of Dawnguard) new weapon types.
The way this system works modders will always be incentivized to overprice their own work or contribution because they only ever see 25% of the product, in a market which is going to become highly competitive in fighting over players funds. This means either the modders will need to maintain high prices with less sales to make a return, or more sales at a lower price point. Both cases where only you and Bethesda are making any real profit.

4. There is no oversight within this system. Both in terms of preventing content theft, but also any level of quality assurance on the part of the products.

Mods are not the same thing as user created content in the cases of TF2, CSGO, or Dota2. All of those games are currently selling art assets which must be approved by you, integrated into the game by you, and you (Valve) are responsible in ensuring that they work properly.
Mods by nature can be as simple as a re-skin (very similar to the aforementioned user created assets), but can be as complex as a professional piece of DLC (such as Falskaar for Skyrim). There is a massive difference in the requirements between maintaining those two different mods which you and Bethesda are washing your hands of and allowing the modders to take the blame.

Gabe, the modding community has existed since before Steam, and I don't believe that the majority of modders will move onto your paying platform. However what you are doing now is going to hurt both the modding scene's stability as well as negatively effect consumer perspectives of modding in what looks like a clear attempt at opening your own company up to a new exploitative revenue stream.

CajunCarnie · 3 時間前

Gabe, what is Valve doing to address the issues of people ripping mods from places like Nexus and putting them up on the Steam Workshop, even though they didn't make the mod?

Astamir · 1 時間前

"Skyrim is a great example of a game that has benefitted enormously from the MODs. The option for paid MODs is supposed to increase the investment in quality modding, not hurt it." - Gabe

Can we talk about this a bit more? Because this seems to be the root of the problem. I think you were ill-advised on the economic impacts of monetization of something that was once free. I fear Varoufakis' departure has left a hole in Valve's understanding of human behaviour and economics.

Costs and rewards can take many forms, not just financial forms, and when you push one specific "currency type" (pride/guilt, money and social capital can all fit into this concept) as a means to acquire a service or product, you push out the others, sometimes for a long time.

There's actually a study on day-cares in Israel that illustrates that point really well. Many people know it from Freakonomics and/or some form of low-level Econ class. To summarize; parents often came to get their children late, forcing day-care employees to stay at work longer than their scheduled hours, creating problems. Following the idea that financial costs are deeply linked to human incentives, the day-care centers elected to put a financial price on late pick-ups, in order to discourage them. The complete opposite happened. Because of the appearance of the financial cost associated with the late pick-ups, parents stopped feeling the moral cost of being late and negatively impacting the day-cares' workers. They felt entitled to being late as long as they paid. The problem grew worse.

What's the link to this current predicament? By opening monetization of mods you're going to push away modders who made things for their personal pride and/or social capital, and you'll bring in those who make things solely for money. This won't just make the old modders sad, it'll make your workshops an absolute shitfest. Actual modders will get their mods stolen, it'll take massive manhours to try and regulate the market, and the quality modders will simply move on to other things, disgusted. What you'll be left with is the typical app store shovelware, with the customer raging as he tries to find a mod that's actually worth acquiring. Everybody loses, even the scammers (who only lose time).

I truly think you should consider the proposal to let people donate to modders. Valve and the devs can still get a cut of revenue (say 40%) and everyone will be happy about it. Why you didn't go with this option is, to be very honest, rather surprising.

^ps: ^I'm ^available ^to ^work ^on ^these ^things ^with ^you ^guys ^since ^I'm ^finishing ^my ^M.Sc. ^like... ^right ^now.

CaneCraft · 1 時間前

Gabe. This system is not working. The implementation is completely idiotic and needs a complete overhaul. Cancel the experiment; it's already lost you a ton of money and goodwill. Your actions have already killed tons of popular mods, and more to come -- SkyUI is becoming paid-only, which is a mod that thousands of other mods rely on. We are losing uncountable content overnight.

And you are answering softball questions on /r/gaming.

This is utterly disappointing.

Now, for some questions and specifics.

PROBLEM 1.

1) 75% of the revenue goes to Valve and the publisher.

This is one of the most important problems people have with this. People already bought the game, mods (and the existence of mods) help sell the games just by existing, and now you (and Bethesda) want to dip into the wallets of consumers years after the game has stopped receiving any kind of update.

And you do this by completely shafting the people who want to make content, by offering a measly 25% for doing - let's face it - all of the design and artwork most of the time.

Why? Why this, instead of a donation button? Why this instead of a Patreon model? If you want to get people used to the idea that paying for mods is a thing they want to be doing, you should nudge them in the direction of the guy who is making money off of modding Cities: Skylines right now. That's working.

This isn't about making modders get paid for their work. If it was, a Patreon system to get people into the idea would be much, much more effective. This isn't about wanting modders to get paid. Valve and Bethesda take a MASSIVE cut off the work of someone else, and you couldn't justify that under a Patreon model.

Is this just because you want people to get used to paying for mods ahead of time, so that when the time comes - and it is fast approaching - where, for certain games, ALL mods on the workshop will be paid-only, that practice will be much more accepted?

PROBLEM 2.

There is zero quality control. It is currently buyer beware, and Valve is offering refunds for obvious and immediate scams or abuses of the system -- within a 24 hour period after purchasing.

This is another problem. Your laissez fair attitude towards content in your workshop, however laudable you may think it is, means that most of the content on the store will be shitty skins, useless trinkets, or - as we've already seen - early-access mods with benefits given to people who buy them early, and in-game popups asking players to pay for and use the paid version of the mod they are using.

We are seeing a lot of mods that used to be free, but now aren't -- and we are seeing mods that were uploaded without the consent of the original creator. And the only thing we can do about this is report it, that your legendary customer service may occasionally take a peek at it?

That's what you're selling us?

Intermediate and longevity problems:

PROBLEM 1.

Mods have all sorts of compatibility issues. When modders come together to work on things for free, you get the Nexus, a place where modders collaborate and offer solutions to compatibility issues with other people's mods.

There is no such system in place on Steam, and modders are under no obligation to make their mods compatible with anyone else's, nor offer support for people who have these issues. They are not required to fix anything broken.

Once the game updates, will the mod remain compatible? Frequently the answer is no, as API changes are frequent and things break on a regular basis. Like the above situation, modders are under no obligation to patch their mod to work with the latest game (and it would be unreasonable to expect it). You are buying something that may be entirely transient.

Like with point one, when mods are free, modders are much more likely to collaborate with each other, offer patches, offer compatibility updates, and generally rely on each other's content. Very frequently, mods have other mods as requirements and dependencies. SkyUI is the most prominent example right now.

SkyUI is a mod that has been around since the beginning. It is a UI overhaul that adds a lot of accessibility and functionality.

Thousands of mods rely on SkyUI to work.

And the creator just said SkyUI will now be paid-only.

Under this new system, content creators will be tempted to scramble for air time and popularity. They will be better off if they do not promote or rely on other mods at all, or do anything that can hurt the sales of their own content. They may even engage in anti-consumer practices. That is what is happening here. This limits the overall quality of content and hurts the consumer.

What happens if SkyUI refuses people to make money off their work for free? What happens if paid content depends on free content from elsewhere when they are under no obligation to share their revenue with their dependencies? I don't think Steam has any idea what is going to happen here.

Also, how will you determine the legality of not only the actual mods, but of the games themselves once mods are front and centre as a selling point on Steam? How will you deal with mods using unlicensed names of people, vehicles, guns, or other gaming characters? How will you deal with regional problems with mods introducing (or reintroducing) cut content that is illegal in some countries, but not others?

This is not a stable environment.

I think this is a humongous misstep from Valve. PC mods being free is a large part of why so many games have enjoyed such longevity for so long, and putting everyone on an even playing field so to speak is why I love the PC platform on the whole. Additionally, I have problems with the heavily abusable system to the incredibly skewed monetization (with 75% of the revenue going to Valve and the game publisher rather than the person who did the work on the mod).

Everyone completely hates your system, Gabe. Shut it down, come up with something better.

Darrian · 3 時間前

From a practical perspective, the problems I have with it are these -

The most popular mods right now (including SkyUI) are mods that fix bad design in the original game. SkyUI is going behind a paywall, and it promotes bad design in games and rewards the developers for fixes the community makes.
The share the modders get is way too low. 25% is a joke.
Stolen content. Modders now need to spend a portion of their time skimming the workshop to make sure their mods aren't being hosted without their permission.
It is hurting the mod community directly, people are taking down their mods that have been free for years on sharing sites like Nexus because they are worried about others using their mod without permission, or they are doing so in protest, or they are doing so in preparation to put it behind a paywall.
There is no guarantee these mods will be supported and will work with our games after updates, which is acceptable if they're free, not so much if we've paid for them.

From the emotional perspective... the modding scene was really cool. It was beautiful to see people doing something for fun to make a game they loved better, and cooperating with others for the sake of enjoyment. Many mods relied on other mods and were packed together showing this big collaborative effort, and over night all those people have turned on each other due to some cashing in, others protesting those cashing in by removing their mods from those modpacks and refusing for them to be used, it's all toxic. Overnight. Yeah, people didn't always get along, but this is ridiculous.

People keep saying "modders deserve to be compensated for their hard work" and if you feel that way, nexus has or is implementing a donation system. Use it. But no, I disagree that they deserve payment. Just because you work hard on something doesn't mean you necessarily deserve a paycheck for doing it. People do lots of things that require a hell of a lot of time and effort, such as leading gaming communities, running guilds, hell, even playing some games can be hard work to be the best. That doesn't mean everybody should be paid for it. The mod community was beautiful because of what it was and throwing money into the situation does nothing to make it better.

OverHaze · 1 時間前

For the entire history of PC modding the mods have been free. On Thursday you changed that, you effectively made mods DLC and people hate DLC.

Fact is something was always going to set this off. For 10 year now (since the launch of the 360) gamers have seen more and more things that where once free locked behind pay wall. Map packs, skins, cheats.This was perceived as another one of them and proved to be the preverbal straw.

Gaming is already the most expensive of the major entertainment mediums and publishers seem to be looking for more and more ways to make it even more so. Basically its an unwelcome change to to a fundamental pillar of the PC gaming community (that many worry could destroy it) that comes off as greedy and we aren't all made of money..

punnotattended · 52 分前

"You have to stop thinking that you're in charge and start thinking that you're having a dance. We used to think we're smart [...] but nobody is smarter than the internet. [...] One of the things we learned pretty early on is 'Don't ever, ever try to lie to the internet - because they will catch you. They will de-construct your spin. They will remember everything you ever say for eternity.'"

-- Gabe Newell

jjake101 · 3 時間前

Please can we have a donation system instead...? hiding mods behind a paywall is just... wrong...

Also you might wanna look at this petition with nearly 100k signatures https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop

gshurik · 3 時間前

If this essentially doesn't work, are you willing to scrap the idea?

I'm worried that Valve has put too much work into it, to scrap it. I feel like the community would be a lot more accepting of an experiment that didn't work, than a project that completely fails.

Houdini_Dees_Nuts · 3 時間前

How can you sell non-refundable micro transactions with no guarantee that they will function?

ItWasDumblydore · 3 時間前

Here is whats wrong that I can already see.

People can easily steal mods from nexus, and have done so the problem is it can take days to weeks to get to customer service. Now you have to deal with people stealing mods.
24 hour refund, What happens if someone patches their mod and it no longer works with another mod you have or period, guess what your fucked. Here's the major problem if a mod works on the standard vanilla game with 0 mods but messes up with certain mods. You cant get a refund, there is no quality control because if you take the mod because everyone who has a lot of mods cant use it but those with very little can your in a lose lose situation giving the middle finger to one of the user groups.
Quality Control, how are we going to know we get a good mod, people can do some shady deals like going hey this is a beta without everything in it... slightly patch fix it then boom drop the mod 1/10th done.
Legality Issues, people are making Frostmourne and other intellectual properties/copy rights, how are you going to deal with it if the lawyers pick on you or the mod maker? Because now they're making money off it, there is no grey area within the mods right now as Valve/Bethesda/Mod maker are directly profiting from it. This goes back to number 1 how would you have the power to moderate it efficiently when it can take weeks to get customer support

Vercadi · 1 時間前

Why can't we just have a donate button where we send all our leftover steam wallet money?

Eselgee · 1 時間前

Hi Gabe,

Issue 1

You may already be aware, but right now the Skyrim (Paid) Mod Workshop is getting filled with quite a few re-uploads of popular mods by people other than their authors.

Many authors have been forced to remove their mods from places like the Steam Workshop and Nexus Mods because others are profiting from their work or ruining their reputation due to the backlash against paid mods.

How do you plan on dealing with this?

Issue 2

My other MAJOR concern with paid mods for Skyrim in particular is the sheer number of dependencies that mods require in order to run properly. These are things like SKSE (code / scripting database), Wrye Bash (mod compiler for unifying multiple mods in the same category), Boss Mods (for properly deciding and sorting mod load orders), SkyUI (complete UI overhaul that many other mods rely on) and many more.

I cannot see paid mods in the workshop doing anything but stifling mod development in the future if even ONE of these mods become a paid mod (which is already the case for SkyUI). This means that 100s of mods that use this as a dependency are now behind a paywall.

How do you plan on dealing with the complexity of mod dependencies in the Workshop? Will there be warnings if you try to buy a mod and you don't own another mod it requires? Is this something Steam can even track?

Issue 3

What prevents people from simply decompiling mods and removing DRM-esque features? Given DMCA's do not cover mods.

Mod ESPs are purposely made to be easily edited and viewed. I've already edited several mods that added certain ads or limitations to their free version to force people to buy the paid one.

Right now I don't publish them merely out of respect of their original authors, however I've already gotten plenty of messages ACTIVELY ENCOURAGING me to upload these to Nexus Mods in order to bypass Steam's paywall. In fact, what prevents me or ANYONE from re-uploading all the paid mods to Nexus Mods? Fair use dictates that there is no legal limitation.

tl;dr: So far the system seems horribly thought out - it seems like a money grab for content that is (or will be - I guarantee it) readily and FREELY available elsewhere. It undermines collaboration in mod creation and destroys fair-use principles that many mods relied on. From a legal standpoint, mod piracy is unenforceable.

So in short, what gives??

Constantineus · 3 時間前

Please Gabe please don't turn the core of pc into an EA dream project. You of all people should know how much this means to us .

PathlessBullet · 57 分前

Remove pay walls.

Add a flashing neon "donate" button to mod pages that brings up an interface esque of Humble Bundle's.

Pay What You Want: ($5) ($10) ($50) ($100) (Custom Amount)

Choose where your money goes:

Steam Tip
Bethesda Tip
Mod Author/Team

There. Humble Bundle, Inc. even beta tested it for you.

chrissystardust · 3 時間前

Just to correct a lot of misinformation out there, can you please confirm:

Free mods still exist on the Workshop.
Modders can continue to release their content for free on the Workshop.

lucben999 · 2 時間前

You heavily criticized Microsoft for their power grab with Windows 8 but now you're doing the same to the modding community, except we don't have the backing of a multimillion dollar corporation to fight back.

As futile as this request probably is, I'd like you to strop trying to monopolize and monetize mods, it's utterly repugnant.

BlobfishKing · 2 時間前

This change.org petition is currently almost at 100,000 votes. If their were enough votes, would consider shutting down the paid mod system? Edit: Change.org petition: https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop

Annonimbus · 3 時間前

ITT: Nothing will change; PR Buzzwords;

BraXzy · 3 時間前

Do you truly believe that paid mods can coexist peacefully alongside free, hobbyist ones?

CRiZiZ · 3 時間前

I dont want to be mean, because i really love steam and i didn't torrent a single game in the last 8 years because of it, but, every day passes, i start thinking that steam doesn't care about gamers anymore, but more with the money. You make so much money with the store, skins, cards, etc and now you want to take profit, a lot of profit, of something that people put their time and work to give to other people, and ruin a whole community. Banning people on the discussion boards, removing donation links and asking modders to ask a price for their mods looks something really bad to me. (Why dont you improve your steam support, that got an "F" ... I had to wait 1 month until i got a e-mail back to solve my problem last time.)

Blazespark · 3 時間前

Why.

Why were paid mods even a thing to begin with.

Why not just put a donate button, instead of taking 75% of the modder's payment.

What was the point?

Choo_poo_in_ma_shoe · 2 時間前

There is a pretty good Forbes article (http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/04/24/valves-paid-skyrim-mods-are-a-legal-ethical-and-creative-disaster/) that hits most of the major issues with this new rollout. I think a response on each of these issues would go a long way towards helping the community see where Valve stands and help reduce the animosity towards steam that is at least in part, imo, due to lack of knowing Valve's position and opinion.

devast8ndiscodave · 1 時間前

You just created mod piracy, good job!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMhfbLRoGEw

adamck · 3 時間前

Is 25% profit a normal amount for content creators in comparable situations? I see a lot of people complaining about the cut Valve and Bethesda receive.

Nargoz · 2 時間前

https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop Just look at this Gabe

DraeonDaemon · 3 時間前

It's clear Gabe is here as a PR move and playing daft. He's answering only easy and nonthreatening question.

Gabe; This is a terrible thing that is destroying the collaborative effort of modding. Everyone is already stealing mods and creating their own walled gardens so others don't steal their mods. It's not been even two days and we've lost hundreds of mods. You're transforming modding into a cold business. Charging for mods will kill modding in the long term. It will push modding under wings of corporations and turn it into a corporate funded 3rd party DLC released as a paid "mod" to fix games broken by publishers themselves for extra "mod" buck. This is an anti consumer and anti modding move and an all around greedy move by Valve. Even if you changed the ration to 90% profit for modders and 10% for Valve and co because you need to apear nice - it's still no fix. All the above problems will hurl PC gaming into a nightmare. This needs to go away completely IMO. In any case, if you don't change this - maybe allow an optional donate button - I and many others feel that Valve is putting PC gaming on a track to kill it. We will stop using steam and buying video games published on it. Instead, we'll pirate. Piracy is a distribution problem - and new policy of your distribution is that problem. If you were serious, you'd consider this argument, maybe respond - but you won't since it doesn't fit your horrifying cyberpunk vision of information as money and existence itself being a virtueless commodity.

If you're going all in because you're dead set on your idea, if you're going to f*ck us all, at least let us sell our game guides and reviews. Hurry up! They're also community products. This is the next step of your master plan, right?

Absolutely disgusting.

btwinch · 1 時間前

ITT: Damage control, nothing meaningful

LaronX · 3 時間前

Here are a few people would dying to know and you probably won't answer.

Why exactly did anyone at valve or your legal advisers think it is a good idea to essentially put no check on uploading the mods?
What are the plans to combat the issues Greenlight and early accesses have from also coming to this system?
Who and why did decide on the $100 earned before payout? What happens to the money of the people that doesn't reach that limit?
Who thought it was a bright idea to surprise people with suddenly charging for content that was for free? Why was it done? So people won't get modes before hand?
How o you justify Valves pretty big cut for basically providing and upload service despite benefiting from the content created?

BKGaming_ · 2 時間前

Gabe,

I like to hear your reply to Forbes calling this a "A Legal, Ethical And Creative Disaster". I'd like to know what plans Steam has to protect mod content that is submitted by people that do not own them, and why it should be the communities job to police this and not Steams. I'd like to know why donation wasn't considered which would have caused less issues. I'd like to know how you expect to keep all this in check when mods are built around sharing of ideas and content by many people, many of which don't share the view that mods should be paid for. Or what you got to say to prominent modders in the Steam community calling this out as being bad thing and not a good thing.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/04/24/valves-paid-skyrim-mods-are-a-legal-ethical-and-creative-disaster/

EDIT: I'd also like to know why Steam users shouldn't just pack up and go to GOG or another competitor where there not being nickel'd and dimed for all there worth.

that_mn_kid · 2 時間前

Here's my question:

Will you consider a voluntary donation system on the Steam Workshop?

To clarify: an option to set price as low as zero and as high as determined by the modder. All modders can upload to the workshop. There is no paid section. Valve can place a tip jar on all mods uploaded (perhaps let the modder opt out of the tip jar), starting at $0. The customers can decide whether or not to tip.

And here are some ranting and raving:

I am incredibly frustrated by the lack transparency in this endeavor, especially so with the rollout.

One of the featured authors, Chesko, had brought to light the fact that Valve was not giving authors all the facts regarding the rollout. Chesko is not the only one. Other modders have come out against the paid Workshop mods:

http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33tz6q/official_sw_monetization_discussion_thread_day_3/

From Chesko's piece, ~~it seems like~~ Valve knew there would be backlash from the community. Valve asked the invited modders to keep things quiet (a gentle gag order if you will). Well, The Skyrim community is at each other's throat now, and it's on Valve (and Bethesda).

You talk of building a healthy modding community. Just know this:

Valve and Bethesda have done more harm than good.

48 hours ago, our community was marked by cooperation and goodwill. Now, we are at each others' throats because Valve and Bethesda saw a way to capitalize on the effort of the modding community. People have picked side. The people who opted into the paid Workshop are vilified by the community. It's a goddamn shame. The people who opted in rightfully deserve compensation, but this is all so much cloak and dagger. The old guards feel betrayed.

A healthy community also requires work from you. As of right now, in the Under Review section, there are mods with stolen content waiting to be approved. Can Valve guarantee that free mods will not be stolen and sold on the Workshop? I ask because the curation of Greenlight and Early Access is piss-poor at best.

**Valve initiated this endeavor, is willing to take a cut but is not willing to moderate this. Going back to Chesko's piece, Valve gave fuck-all about other modders' permission regarding to borrowing assets in for-profit mod.

Valve threw Chesko under the bus. Valve and Bethesda's money grubbing is at the crux of the Skyrim modding community's fallout.

Valve ask the customers to "post politely and notify the author" about broken mods after the 24-hr refund window. We all know this accomplishes zilch with Early Access and Greenlight games. Nothing is stopping it from happening with mods. I presume it would be even worse as mods are developed with smaller teams with even less (it's close to zero already with Early Acess and Greenlight) oversight from Valve.

You speak of being data driven, look at the bottom of the Skyrim's store page, that should tell you enough about the current situation.

FooFootheShoo · 2 時間前

Anyone else feel Gabe is only selecting easy questions and/or beating around the bush by not providing actual answers?

MonkahBoy · 3 時間前

Gabe,

With the new addition of paid modding (and your forced seventy-five percent cut) on Steam, I fear you're only becoming more and more willing to screw over your playerbase in exchange for monetary funds. The following are issues that have arisen over the past two years that are morally wrong or far too monetarily based.

Trading Cards; a fun and innovative idea that's absolutely tarnished once it becomes more about how much money you're giving to Valve, instead of playing the games and unlocking achievements.
Seasonal events; another fun and innovative idea that's absolutely tarnished once it becomes more about how much money you're giving to Valve, instead of participating in event activities and having fun.
Steam Greenlight is incredibly inefficient, often times more or less scamming players for products that are unprofessionally maintained and will never be completed, or are simply subpar games to begin with. Valve's lack of quality control on Greenlight allows for cheap marketing tactics and developer abandonment.
Steam's refund policy is absolute garbage, and we know this because even EA, the absolute kings of greedy bastards, have a more lenient and chill refund policy than Steam's.
Nearly all of Valve's popular games involve and often focus on microtransactions (hats, weapon skins, etc.) instead of actual game content. Valve takes every opportunity to turn fun game mechanics into money grinders, instead of simply letting a game's item acquisition be through enjoyable means-- like just about every ethical company in the games market.
Valve's almost unquestioned allowance of developers censoring reviews on their products. Why exactly does Valve see this as acceptable developer behavior?
Valve's response to the paid-mod crisis hasn't been silence-- they've been censoring ratings and closing discussions that relate to people's issues with their update, as if to simply shove their middle finger in our faces. Rather than negotiate to form a better and more fair update, they simply stop people from showing their disagreement.
Valve's lack of organization and ability to keep promises. Between Half-Life 3, Diretide, and the constant 'Valve Times' that the company is so well known for, it's amazing how Valve has yet to take responsibility for the promises that they make.
Steam Gems. Started as a terrible fundraising concept, ended as a terrible fundraising concept. In lieu of a fun seasonal event, Valve introduced bidding for games (that almost always cost more than the game itself) and held events based on how much people bidded.
Valve's support system is low-tier and often takes weeks to process the simplest of requests. God forbid you actually have a problem that isn't Googleable, because the chances of you getting a response by the end of the year are laughable.
The final straw itself; Valve's implementation of a morally bankrupt system that forbids mod developers to take donations simply so that all revenue, even if in the form of a gift, has to go through the 75% cut.

Your unethical policies have begun to greatly concern me and many other users, and are making Steam a less and less desirable platform for us all.

Thank you for your time.

rodgercattelli · 2 時間前

Requiring payment to use mods I think negatively impacts the community. But I understand Valve's position that this could create value for modders, community, and developers. The issue comes in that for many years the modding community has been built upon and based on goodwill between modders, the community, and the developers. A lot of people see modding as a right, something that they deserve to do, which only the developers have a true right to say. Many in the community feel they have a right to mods for free, which considering the work it takes to create a mod, can be seen as unfair to the modder. The modder extends the developer's game, though, generating additional sales due to a longer game life. The community gets more content. The only one in the loop not getting something is the modder. With paid mods, the modder has a chance to get something. The downfall is that many in the community like to simply try mods. We experiment. Other modders piggyback on mods, making use of tools and resources in one mod for their own purposes.

So I have a string of questions:

When modders piggyback off of another mod, making use of resources from someone else's mod to implement their own, will Valve do anything to enforce mod compatibility and mod updates? If mod1 is updated so that mod2 breaks because mod2 relies on material in mod1 that is no longer there, will Valve force the developer of mod2 to update it?
If a dispute arises between a modder and the community over a paid mod, will Valve step in to resolve the issue?
If a modder's work is stolen and reposted for sale, will Valve respond to DMCA notifications? If so, will Valve be prepared to remove the content and issue refunds to persons who illegally purchased stolen material? If not, how will Valve deal with what amounts to illgeally distributing stolen goods and facilitating that distribution?
Why is Valve allowing paid mods instead of encouraging donations for mods?
What was the process which started this route? Was it initiated by Valve, Modders, or Bethesda?
If the paid mods program is scrapped, will Valve issue refunds to persons who purchased paid mods?
How will Valve fairly and equally promote paid versus free mods?
Will Valve force users to make use of mods through Steam only or will Valve allow mod usage in games regardless of the mod's status on Steam?

Thank you for your time.

temerian · 2 時間前

Are you going to do quality control for mods?

LoLvsT_T · 1 時間前

Why not ask for community feedback before going on with the change. If only for how to do implement the system best, as the current implementation (unpopular as it) is just utter rubbish with numerous problems, be it mods that use other mods, mods that use copyrighted material, stolen or ea mods. The whole thing seems like a mess.

Declinedgrunt · 3 時間前

What was the thought behind monetizing mods? Was to help the mod creators or to get a bit more money for things that used to be free?

Kingovtrolls88 · 3 時間前

I am really upset that I was banned from commenting for simply voicing my opinion that modding should stay free.. I spent ample effort to make sure it was not derogatory in any way. It was simply my opinion on the philosophy and history of modding.

Nick12506 · 3 時間前

What do you think about how people are removing free mods and are now charging for them without adding additions to it?

robpsychobob · 15 分前

Mods have got to remain free. Every single one of them. The best possible solution is a "Pay what you want" system that starts at $0.00 and cannot be changed by anyone.

The Modders, Valve and Developers would still make money with this system and it would be more money then they were making when it was completely free. The most important thing is that absolutely nobody would have their gaming experience ruined just because they couldn't afford the mods.

This is not about getting things for free it's about keeping gaming more about the gaming experience and less about the money.

Skyrim is a perfect example. The majority will agree that, with exception to the first time, Skyrim is not an enjoyable experience without mods.

Many people will also agree that they use far more than 10, 20 or even 50 mods when they play Skyrim. So paying for the amount of mods they need for their personal experience could become incredibly expensive.

Forced payments, directly or indirectly, will have a negative impact on the gaming experience for many players. That is exactly the opposite of what gaming is and should be about.

All you need to do is give the community the tools to make these "pay what you want" purchases easily accessible right on the mod's workshop page.

I believe this system would still allow for a huge amount of success for the mod creators and gaming industry as a whole. Everyone wins.

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