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What are some "trendy" pseudo-progressive movements that you find incredibly annoying. (self.SRSDiscussion)

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[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (24子コメント)

This isn't a movement really, just a political ideology that I find disheartening, and it's the "republicans and democrats are the same so there's no point voting". This is almost always espoused by hard left liberals who are such a distance from the more moderate democrats that they can't make out the differences between the two. As a democrat myself this really kills me, because there is a huge difference between a Ted Cruz and a Barack Obama, and people may just get to experience that difference in a few years.

[–]enormous_butthole [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

and it's the "republicans and democrats are the same so there's no point voting".

There's no point voting because voting is an economically worthless action, but that's a story for another time.

[–]narrenburg [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

[T]here is a huge difference between a Ted Cruz and a Barack Obama

No there isn't.

They both

  • Believe in capitalism

  • Believe in the state

  • Engage in neocolonialism (just different kinds of neocolonialism)

  • Support use of North American fossil fuels as a long-term solution to energy independence (which clearly contributes to systemic ecocide)

  • Give mandates to ubiquitous surveillance internally and externally

  • Have draconian immigration policies (note: detaining thousands of Central Americans for extended periods of time is not progressive)

  • Say zilch about prison reform

and that's what I can list in two minutes.

To sum it up - if you're talking about two people who seek to preserve the same system, they're not that different.

[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Similarities in politics abound, and it's a relatively simple game to find them. The fact that similarities exist doesn't mean they are the same.

[–]narrenburg [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I hope you realize you're telling an anarchist that there's a huge difference between two functionaries of liberal democracy.

[–]Heidegger [スコア非表示]  (18子コメント)

There's a huge difference in what they say. What they actually get accomplished is another story.

What has Obama done that's impressed you?

[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (17子コメント)

To be honest I'm more centrist than a lot of dems so I can't say I approve of everything he's done, but I wouldn't for a second deny the quantity of what he's accomplished. He's been one of the most activist presidents in a long time. I'm not sure if you're asking rhetorically or you genuinely don't think he's accomplished much, but here's a short list of things he's done that no republican would have touched with a ten foot pole

Stimulus package

ACA

Dream act

Allowing gays to serve openly in the military

Federal recognition of same sex marriages

Not going after states that have legalized marijuana (since the Feds technically have the right to arrest anyone doing it)

Withdrawal from Iraq

The Jobs Bill (which didn't pass and was a pipe dream at best, but still)

At this point in his presidency there's not much left he can accomplish since he forced through so much extremely divisive legislation and so many executive actions.

Ed: I said the Dream Act but that's not the right name. I'm talking about his executive actions on immigration.

[–]PlushgunMusic[S] [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

You can add to that: proactively trying to avoid war with Iran, rather than do everything politically possible to go to war with Iran (a rather concrete difference between not only Obama and the GOP but Obama and other dems..)

[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

Yeah, that's a good one. There's a lot of other ones I've missed that I'm remembering now, like closing GitMo and improving relations with Cuba.

[–]shallow- [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

GitMo hasn't been closed.

[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Wow. Just looked it up. You're absolutely right. Have they at least stopped accepting new people?

[–]shallow- [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

They released some Yemeni prisoners recently, I don't know if they're emptying it out or it's related to the current crisis in Yemen.

[–]Heidegger [スコア非表示]  (11子コメント)

Stimulus package

Which was inadequate and largely a supply-side affair. Republicans would've done the same thing if their neck had been on the line.

ACA

He killed the public option despite it having 70% public approval according to polls at the time, and implemented a system model on Republican ideas from the 90s.

Dream act

Immigration reform still alludes us. He has deported more undocumented immigrants than any president in history.

Allowing gays to serve openly in the military

I've got to hand it to him for that one.

Federal recognition of same sex marriages

That one too. I can't fault Obama for his support for gay rights. But I think the tide has been turning for a while and even a (moderate) Republican president would have been pressured into doing this eventually.

Not going after states that have legalized marijuana (since the Feds technically have the right to arrest anyone doing it)

I don't know what you're smoking, but he's gone after them like mad in CA where I'm from. The feds even raided a dispensary in my home town during his first term.

Withdrawal from Iraq

That was Bush's doing; Obama tried to find a way out but was legally obliged to abide by the agreement GWB made with the Iraqis. His broader foreign policy has been like GWB on steroids. Nobody worth talking to would defend his warmongering.

The Jobs Bill (which didn't pass and was a pipe dream at best, but still)

Yep, nothing but talk. He also turned his back on unions quite famously during the whole Wisconsin thing.

[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

Like I said, I don't agree wth all of them, but if you think those things are no different than what you would have seen from a republican, well....like I said, it's disheartening.

[–]Heidegger [スコア非表示]  (9子コメント)

He was different, but not enough to consider voting Democrat a viable path to progress. I'll still vote for Elizabeth Warren when and if she runs, but without hope. I believed in Obama before he was elected. Now I know the system is broken beyond its ability to repair itself. The only change will come from below, imo.

[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (8子コメント)

Eh, maybe. I've never been terribly impressed by grass roots campaigns. I spent 6 years living in an intentional community and I quickly became dissillusioned with the idea that people at the ground level have any better idea what to do. Lots of revolutionaries always willing to burn the ship rather than watch it veer off course. Which really leads to the problem with people who won't play in the middle, they aren't willing to compromise their ideology. This is just as true for the hard left as it is for the Tea Party.

The reality is that people on the extremes think politics is a game of checkers when in fact it's a game of chess. Their goals are too stark, their victory conditions too simple, and they lack the ability to play the long game. Extremists do serve a purpose in creating a little modulating pressure on the system, but it's usually not that's significant, the Tea Party has been a bit of an anomoly in that regard.

Generally though they are a forgettable blip in the system.

I normally wouldn't care, but we need the extra votes we could get from the outsiders, especially in this next election which is almost guaranteed to go republican.

[–]piyochama [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Lots of revolutionaries always willing to burn the ship rather than watch it veer off course.

This is my biggest problem. Revolutions are costly, and they are absolutely taxing - both in human lives and in lost potential.

You have to believe the system so incredibly fucked up beyond all repair to actually think this is worth it.

[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

Yeah, so much this. I've had a couple conversations with liberal extremists that have gotten really eye opening when we start discussing this. One one occasion I remember I pointed out that the only way the government could shift gears overnight would be a bloody revolution, to which he replied "So?".

I think the sad reality is that most of them don't want a better democracy, they just want a benevolent dictatorship more in line with their views.

Ed: to be clear I don't for a second think right wing extremists are different. I've just never had many conversations of this nature with them. The few I've had have been with objectivists who are pretty ok with people dying on the streets just to motivate the rest of us.

[–]piyochama [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Yeah that's something that I've come to notice too, even in SRSD. People don't want democracy - they don't care what other people think. They simply want a government that enforces their views, and their views only - they are that convinced they are right, to the point that other views are immediately disregarded.

[–]HalflingTea [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

"Liberal extremists" lol.

Tell me, do you think people are going to magically vote away capitalism and private property? And who are YOU to tell the poor (and other marginalized people) to wait for a rose-tinted, peaceful and non-violent revolution? (and that means peaceful and non-violent to the majority and those living comfortable lives, fuck all it meaning anything for those already oppressed). I used to be on the other side of the table but I completely understand where the leftists are coming from--so much, that I'm a fucking ML now lol.

[–]Heidegger [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Nobody has really figured out a solution to the mess we're in, just have to keep trying new things I suppose.

That's very interesting about the intentional community. I've known a couple people with experiences like that, and they do seem fraught with problems. What was yours like?

[–]Hellkyte [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It was in college, I lived in a housing cooperative. Member owned and all that. I operated at multiple levels of leadership there ranging from house level stuff to organization wide financial director. The main thing I remember were the meetings. Things were supposed to be by consensus, which would imply that everyone agreed. Which is nothing near the truth, consensus voting is a terrible system. For one it carries a heavy chill factor that keeps shy people out because they don't want to rock the boat. It also allows ego maniacs to hijac even the most mundane of agreements by refusing to consent. You could have multi-hour conversations about what kind of toilet paper we were going to buy.

This wasn't true for all the houses (some did straigh up and down votes), it was far worse in the more politically active houses.

You would see lots of other issues as well. Free riders were a big problem, even with the fairly structured system of labor we had people could get away with doing little because people weren't always willing to enforce the rules. Moreover some people were just willing to contribute a LOT more to the house, and people would rely on them to pick up the slack.

In my case I was able to get out of work by joining the leadership, which is so clearly similar to what often happens in communist dictatorships that it's hard not to laugh. In truth I did do a lot of work in leadership, but I didn't get my hands dirty often.

Then there were just the realities of living with a bunch of people on very limited resources in tight confines. In all fairness it was actually a great experience, and I don't regret it for a second, but I also look back on it with a better perspective of what it means to be a member of a group, or what it means to manage said group.

It's actually led to me being a significantly better employee as I've gotten older, I'm very good at cutting through bullshit in meetings and bypassing petty personal crap to get things done. These were skills I learned there.

It also left me with a ton of great friends, a few good lovers, more bad ones, only 1 rash, and a good set of skills in a kitchen.