Let’s stop the practice of having Scouts sing for a lost item
Let’s say a Scout loses something — perhaps his Boy Scout Handbook, troop cap or camp chair — and you find it.
Do you:
A. Return the item to him right away, with a quick, discreet (but in full view of others) reminder that he should keep a better eye on his stuff?
B. Give the item to his patrol leader or senior patrol leader and let one of them return it to the Scout with the same friendly, discreet reminder?
C. Keep the item until he can “sing for it” in front of the whole unit, thereby shaming him into never making the mistake again?
The right answers are A or B.
If you said C — singing for the lost item — the BSA’s top volunteer in charge of Youth Protection asks you to rethink that practice.
April is Youth Protection Month, making this a good time to tell you that singing for a lost item is bullying, and bullying isn’t allowed in Scouting. Read more in this Ask the Expert.
The question
The BSA’s Youth Protection team received the following note from an area director:
I am trying to answer a question for one of my local councils that relates to what I believe is a bullying issue. The gist of it is this: A unit doesn’t understand why it is not OK to single a kid out in front of other Scouts and make them sing for their lost item instead of just dealing with it individually.
While you and I both know that is a form of bullying and harassment, this group would like to see something in writing that states this kind of behavior is unacceptable.
Good question. You can consider the below “something in writing.”
The answer
It comes from Dr. Jim Wilson, none other than the national chairman of the BSA’s Youth Protection Committee.
This is a great question. You are absolutely correct. Singling out a Scout in front of other Scouts is inappropriate and can be damaging to that Scout. I would suggest following up with the Scout to see if he is OK. Also, the Scout’s parents should be informed, if they haven’t been already.
This practice is actually promoting an environment of harassment and bullying. It can put the Scout at greater risk of being bullied, encourage other Scouts to single out and bully others, and create a cycle of bullying (in which even those who were bullied start bullying others).
In fact, it is recommended even in bullying situations not to single out anyone publicly, including the person who engaged in bullying behavior. It’s better to address the situation after everyone has had time to cool off.
I suggest you check out the information sheets available in the “Bullying Awareness” section of the Youth Protection website.
Also, we draw upon information and materials available from StopBullying.gov, which has additional bullying-prevention resources that may be helpful for you.
Amen! Long time overdue addressing bullying issues like this and many others by adults. All too often the YP focus has been on scout-on-scout bullying while adult-on-scout bullying has not been recognized as a real problem that drives scouts away from scouting.
We do it but it’s voluntary and it always turns out that there’s 20 scouts up there together and it’s funny. The boy never leaves feeling bad. Anything is punishment if you use it that way.
Stopped that years ago in my troop, I didn’t like it as a boy and still don’t.
Thank you for posting this. Dealing with units and individuals who think this is ok is very difficult. Nice to have it in writing.
Huh…our troop has always loved this. Not only do the boys usually LOVE to sing but the whole patrol will get up in support of their fellow patrol mate to help him out singing and will even start dancing. To the point where you have most of the troop up there. It comes down to a point where PC is getting a little crazy. Are they bullying or having fun. Please……
Perhaps they enjoy it so much that some Scouts “lose” items on purpose to get the chance to sing. Now you’re rewarding negative behavior. If the Scouts in your troop love singing and dancing in front of a crowd, then provide opportunities for them to do it. Maybe the patrols that don’t lose anything should be the ones who get to sing. We’re supposed to be having fun, but not at others’ expense.
No it’s really not like that. They very rarely lose anything. Maybe 2 – 3 times a year and we camp on a monthly basis. It’s never consistently one scout either. They just like to make a production. Nothing ever gets done at someone else’s expense. They just learn to laugh at themselves and have fun, what a lot of people should learn how to do and never do.
We did it when I was a scout and I had very mixed feelings then. I quickly decided it would never bother me personally and I would be one to join others. And to ensure that I wasn’t picked on I would ham it up more. I encouraged those up front to make it look like they meant to do it.
This did morph into a bit of one-upmanship as Court of Honor came around. There was things “lost” on purpose. The key was just what one might be willing to reclaim in front of families. And yes, the leader had to call some things out and they would be returned without a song.
I think it is better to let this die. The practice doesn’t work, it forces the forgetful to either get friends to watch their back, or learn public performance. And there are likely boys who have left scouts over a single such thing.
The Scout gets to choose the song and the whole troop sings it together. We all have a good time with it. Same goes for adult leaders if they leave something on a camp out. We all sing together. Everyone has fun.
If it is the boy or adults first time, we give it back to them with a discussion.
So the whole troop is punished and they get even later when the adults aren’t looking. It is still harassment. My big question is WHY? Why do this at all?
Some youth are very shy and quiet. Forcing them to sing for things is like torture to them and they will go without their coat/hat/chair/book in order to NOT sing.
Some youth are not shy at all. Having them sing for items would be no big deal.
I’ve seen youth quit because they were told to sing for their things.
I’ve seen youth not give a darn and singing never helped them learn to keep track of their stuff better.
The absolute GLEE that some adults get over having scouts sing for their things is rather horrible to see. That’s why we addressed it with the Comm Chair.
I disagree. A Scout needs to pay the consequences for forgetting something, and singing is a harmless way for him to remember that he needs to check his gear and make sure it’s all there. Otherwise, no lesson is learned, and the Scout’s behavior never changes. Scouts need to learn to pick up after themselves. If they want to be forgetful at home, that’s their parents’ problem. In Scouting, we’re trying to teach them to be responsible adults.
There are so many other methods that can be used to help a scout learn to care for and look after his gear and the troop gear without having to humiliate that scout. As a father who had 2 boys who continually forgot things or misplaced them the troop found better ways to teach them how to remember and take care of things. This form of harassment just should not be tolerated.
THE key reminder is back in our Scoutmaster’s Handbook and Leader Specific Training – “Scouting uses positive reinforcement to motivate Scouts.”
You may disagree, but our Youth Protection Policy prohibits this and therefore it must end.
Not everything a scout does, not every mistake a scout makes needs to be turned into a “teachable moment” nor should a Scout need to pay “the consequences for forgetting something”.
Let’s follow the Scout Law and be helpful and just return lost or misplaced items to their rightful owner. We see article in the media all the time about scouts who find wallets and other items in their community and help reunite the lost item with the rightful owner. What image would Scouting have in the community if scouts first demanded these people sing to get their belongings returned?
What is kind of scary reading many of these replies are fellow leaders and Scouters who have been desensitized to the damage they are causing in Scouts and the dysfunctional culture in some units that allow such practices to continue.
Yes we are trying to teach these youngmen to be responsible and self reliance;
However making then sing in front of the group to get it back Is HAZING and is NOT Harmless it can be very Detrimental to their psyche and you may loose that Scout!
A better way to handle this is to return the items to the Scout. To the side but within eye site of the rest of the group. Discuss the importance of making sure he has all his items; suggest a check list. Tell him you have confidence in him. Use positive reinforcement With the whole group.
So do you perform some public ritual every time you forget or lose something?
And those who quit?? I suppose they are unworthy?
I agree with “outdoorsteps” here! A Scout needs to pay the consequences for forgetting something. In our troop we have a tradition that when a Scout makes a mistake we make him wear what we lovingly call “the cone of shame.” He puts the cone on his head, stands up in front of the troop and does a little dance for us all. We all point and laugh at him and sometimes we throw old rotted fruit at the Scout (not too hard or anything that would like physically hurt him)… it’s all just a harmless way for him to remember that he needs to check his gear and make sure it’s all there. Otherwise, no lesson is learned, and the Scout’s behavior never changes.
Thanks for posting this Bryan. I can’t figure out how it isn’t common sense.
And it is about time too.
Are there any other “ceremonial” belittlements out there? I had to quietly end the “tradition” in one Cub Pack of turning a Cub upside down when pinning on his Bobcat.
We are building up kids, not embarrassing them into manhood.
Celebrate their accomplishments, not their failings, no matter how “small”.
“It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men”. = Frederick Douglas =
I also helped to end the “tradition” of turning terrified Cub Scouts upside down for their Bobcat. As a den leader, I refused to participate in awarding the badge to any boy if this tradition was enforced. The older boys were bummed, but the look of terror on my son’s face as he hid under the table when it was time to get his badge was heartbreaking. Now that he’s older, he doesn’t hide under tables but I will never force him to do something humiliating in front of others for any reason. Way to turn a kid off to scouting forever.
We enjoyed this when we were in Cubs. We took it as a challenge to do our Good Turn. No one was scared, we all had our Dads there and it was one of many bonding experiences we shared. Perhaps it was meaningful to us because we were on a military base overseas and knew that at any moment our dads could be gone for who knew how long. No one was upset, no one quit, we all had fun, and we got more of our friends to join when we told them about all the fun we were having.
You know, it says something about us as a society when the top tier of our organization and our federal govt feels compelled to instruct adults on things like this.
I am not defending or attacking the practice of singing for lost items. I rarely see it done. It’s just odd to me that an area director doesn’t have the ability to sort this out without getting “something in writing”.
This mad drive for universally applicable “written rules” is suffocating. According to our mission, we instill values BY preparing children to make ethical and moral decisions themselves, not making the decisions for them.
How does an area director, a scout executive, and the many parallel volunteers involved, not to mention the Scoutmaster not know this?
Very poor article indeed. I agree singing is not the best way but the other two answers are even worse how is the scout supposed to learn if they habitually leave or lose items? There is no answer to this in the article. Yes I’m guilty I have used singing for your lost or left item including adults leaders “been caught once or twice” I see no bullying after by the other scouts and neither have my other leaders.
If you have an “option D” for how to handle the situation, I’d love to hear it.
I personally use a list for all my packing; this mainly started from my age and a desire to make my pack lighter – I list and weigh everything I bring with me. I then use that same list when I pack up to leave a site, making sure I get everything back in the right place and cleaned off. We do the same thing for Patrol gear, and the Quartermaster checks out gear to patrols as it goes to the trailers and checks it back in to the trailers as it is packed up Sunday. Nothing gets lost and its condition is noted.
Sometimes Scouts need this structure, too. Maybe giving them a tool or a method to keep from losing gear or account for it might be more help to them than replacing lost gear with shame. Most often Scouts that I see who have trouble with losing gear are ADD or ADHD and lost a knife or a hat or water bottle as they lost focus and switched tasks. Punishing one of these Scouts is akin to making fun of a Scout who stutters or teasing a Scout with a physical disability in order to help them overcome it. How effective will that be? I guess it depends on your goal.
If you want to drive them out of Scouting or put a bad taste in their mouths, tease away. If you want to help them be better Scouts, men, and leaders, teach them how to help others address their shortcomings in a positive way – give them tools to succeed rather than putting rocks in their pack.
REI has a camping and hiking gear checklist that our troop uses.
A better way would be to have the scout do something constructive to help break a habit. Perhaps the scout needs to come up with a how they will prevent the loss. Perhaps you can help the scout through the process.
As one who sang for many many an item, I can assure you it did nothing to help me stop losing items. I had no fear of public humiliation. I learned how to turn ham it up when humiliated so the joke is not on me.
Tricks that I use are:
1) Mental check list of some items. (I always check my pockets for certain things. To the point that if my car is being worked on I notice more than once an hour.)
2) Check for missed items. Especially if traveling I always look around for what was left. This means my hotel bed nearly gets stripped in my checks today.
3) Have a designated place and only use that spot for some things. Down side to this is if you break the habit, may not have a clue where to begin looking.
Option D, ask the boy’s SPL or patrol to come up with a song and sing with him.
A Scout is Courteous. A Scout is Kind. How did we get to the point where none of the volunteers in a council or an area can help a unit leader and PLC understand that? How did we get to the point where that is not sufficient “written proof” that something could be done differently?
The last 2 councils I’ve been a member of banned the practice (20 years plus). I guess I just thought it was codified somewhere. It’s just common sense.
Embarrassment is not a motivator. And any adult that thinks it is, needs to move into the 21st century and get (and apply it!) some leadership training. A GOOD leader understands negative reinforcement has the opposite affect as intended. Embarrassment is never “harmless”. Any time you publicly cause a youth to feel that kind of negative stress is called hazing, which is specifically prohibited in Scouting.
I am conflicted on this issue. I can see how it could be considered bullying, and our troop doesn’t do it. HOWEVER, the troop in which I grew up did practice singing for your lost stuff. Far from a humiliation, I considered it a mild embarrassment, and an invaluable part of my Scouting experience. I believe that experience, as a young Scout, is the reason that, as an older Scout and as an adult, I rarely return from an outing with an item I meant to bring home.
I also know of a troop that will call out a whole patrol to sing for a patrol member’s lost item. It seems to reinforce the fact idea that patrol members are responsible, not just for themselves, but for each other as well. There are many days when the whole troop ends up singing, and a good time is had by all.
There are many other ways that don’t involve shaming, embarrassment, and ridicule to teach the practice of checking gear! Have you never forgotten your wallet at home? …locked your keys in the car? …left your jacket behind? You may think that making a boy sing, “I’m a Little Teapot” to get his hat back is all in good fun – and he may seem to take it in stride for appearances sake – but you may be affecting that boy very deeply. I’ve seen it happen all too often. Instead of willingly shaming him publicly, why not publicly demonstrate a few of the points of the Scout Law, such as being Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, and Kind? THOSE examples will go further in teaching them to be responsible adults.
I carry a Sharpie with me everywhere to share with those boys who have unmarked scout stuff, particularly hats and handbooks (a Scout is Helpful). We encourage the boys to write their names and troop number on their gear. And when an owner is reconnected with their misplaced item, there is no singing or other public humiliation (a Scout is Kind).
That’s a great idea. For years, I’ve considered a pen to be a standard part of my uniform (got that from Wood Badge), but the Sharpie will meet both needs.
Did you see wha you just did….. YOU carry a Sharpie…. YOU make yourself accountable for addressing THEIR sloppiness and THEIR lack of preparation by not marking their property before coming to camp.
There is a huge riff forming between “modern America” and “Scouting”… that is the gap between accountability and no accountability. This is Boy Scouts, not “day care”. Any time adults take responsibility out of the hands of the boys, we are working AGAINST the purpose of Scouting.
Remember, if YOU are doing ANYTHING that the boys could/should be doing for themselves, then you are doing TOO MUCH.
I think there is a big difference between a boy we receive at 10 and a half and the young man who leaves the program somewhere later down the road a better person for having been a part of it.
If we expect a boy to do all these things on his own, on the first campout or event then the Cub Scout program has failed him miserably.
If all I have to do is provide a sharpie to have a kid label is own stuff? That seems like a low bar. You’re actually providing him the tool to do it himself. Sounds like a teachable moment to me. Even better if you can get your patrol leaders to carry sharpies.
I agree 100%. My 11 year old son is Patrol Leader. How should I handle that? Curently he leads campouts prep, reviews rank, helps the plc plan the troop calendar, often plans meals, buys food, cooks steaks, cobbler for his patrol and teaches scouting skills like knots and first aid.
But from your post he is clearly at his age he is not responsible enough to keep track of his own stuff. So for him to carry a sharpie to help his patrol with their stuff is TOO much to expect for a boy that age. Maybe when he is older we can determine when it is appropriate to let him take on something like that. One good thing could come out of your aproach. If I don’t burden him with too much oppressive personal responsibilities now, I will have plenty of time to teach him during his 20s and 30s while he is still living at home.
Perhaps it is the Senior Patrol Leader, Assistant Senior Patrol Leader and each Patrol Leader that should have the sharpie. So that they can teach each other.
At our summer camp, part of the staff uniform is a pen. Honestly a scoutmaster carrying a Sharpie for labeling kids stuff on the fly sounds like cubs not scouts. There is a level of growing that comes with scouts. Learning to fly sometimes requires being kicked from the nest. The attitude displayed here ensures that the nest will always be full.
I would have hated that as a child. As a teenager I would have chosen to do without or quietly replace the item on my own before suffering that. My former Cub Scouts would quit, to a young man, if they were forced to sing individually, or were otherwise embarrassed, in public. There is no need to add insult to injury.
As a brand new assistant scoutmaster 25 years ago, I was very uncomfortable when the scoutmaster made a just-crossed-over Scout stand and sing the “prairie flower song” for losing something. The boy never came back to a meeting. Within a few months, several of us had started a new troop. Within a couple of years, the previous troop failed. Singing for lost items wasn’t the troop’s only problem. but it was indicative of deeper issues.
@outdoorsteps: It is not harmless. What the scout will learn, if anything, is that he cannot rely on fellow Scouts or Scouters as trustworthy friends. Public humiliation is not an effective tool for teaching. How to harass, embarrass, and humiliate others is not a skill we need to teach scouts in order for them to become responsible adults. Promotion or tolerance of such behavior is unquestionably antithetical to the values of the scout oath and law.
Hmm.. Another Zero Tolerance rule. The 327th Commandment. Akin to the “all discipline by adults” rule from the YPT team.
What about Scouts deliberately “losing items” so they can join in singing with the SPL – to the point that the entire troop is up there singing? What was missing was “harassment” or “bullying.” What were present were the values of Scouting.
If Scouts and Scourers “get” the Law, no more need be said. Any “lesson” is taught without cruelty.
If they do not “get” the Law, no more that matters can be said. A cruel person will always find a way to satisfy their lust for inflicting suffering, if only by a glance or by silence.
You surely mean well, but continually adding more rules is usually not adding anything of value.
Our Summer Camp lost the pages of “Do not’s” a couple years ago. Plenty of space left and paper saved when we went back to twelve.
I wouldn’t ever do this but I have to say we have become a nation of wimps when something like this is considered bullying.
If someone is looking for something in writing, how about the Scout Law? The practice isn’t Friendly nor is it Kind. It isn’t Helpful. 8 out of 10 Scouts might be OK with being singled out but two wouldn’t be. Those two would possible be lost to Scouting. We promised them adventure and we give them embarrassment. So it isn’t Trustworthy.
I have quietly suppressed this practice in my Pack. When it’s happened in the past, we make the entire Pack (leaders included) sing along so the boy doesn’t feel singled out. But it still made them too uncomfortable for my tastes.
You’ve got to be kidding me. If boys are embarrassed and demeaned, then you’re doing it wrong. Boys can tell the difference between good-natured rituals and mean-spritied ones. In our troop, sooner or later everyone winds up doing “the Little Teapot,” so the boys aren’t really singled out. These performances are met with cheering and wild applause. Youth and adult leaders frequently join the “offending” Scout, especially if it is a new Scout or younger, more bashful boy. Every boy ought to learn how to take ownership for his mistakes with poise and confidence. If the troop is not a safe, supportive environment for rituals like this, then the troop has deeper leadership problems.
Sorry, Reed…meant to reply to Darnell’s comment. I don’t think this ritual is appropriate for Cub Scouts.
Just as I’d stated before, those units who do this seem to think they do it ‘right,’ and the rest of us are wimps. Trying to eliminate old habits is like beating your head against a wall. Duct-taping a new Scout to a tree is ‘all in good fun,’ too. Do you still do that? It’s OK if everybody else does it, right?
Item C is hazing. This specifically has not been not allowed in Scouting for over 50 years. I believe a number of Scout leaders were abused as youth and perpetuate these acts for their personal gratification. I became the new Scoutmaster of my son’s troop in 1980 and told all the leaders we were going to training together. They wondered why and I said I want everyone on the same page in how we run a Scout troop. We had a few boys quiet when we got back from training, but we developed a troop that grew in number with a very progressive Scouting program.. Back to the individual Boy Scout, he probably has had difficulty keeping track of his personal equipment for years and constructive kindness and advice will go a long way to help him mature. I have seen many Scouts become very mature young men in a positive Scouting program.
I was ABUSED by my adult leaders when I had to sing “I’m a Little Teapot?”
I was bullied by a lot of people over the course of MANY years when I was a kid, and I know bullying when I experience it.
Singing “I’m a Little Teapot” to get my canteen (or compass, or pocket knife, or wallet, or any of 100 things- I STILL misplace stuff) was neither bullying NOR abuse.
Goodness, but we have become fragile. I had to look to make sure this wasn’t posted on April 1st. This is so absurd it is almost not worth commenting on.
I cannot sing at all and dreaded singing in music class as a child. If I had beenade to sing in public like that I would have been beyond embarrassed.
Additionally, a couple years ago my oldest son, a scout and 11 years old, was serving as a den chief at day camp. I was the den leader for my younger son’s wolf den. My oldest son’s name tag fell off and someone from another unit found it. He wanted him to sing in front in the entire camp to get it back. He was in tears!!! Needless to say, me and the other den leader (who was much more outspoken than I naturally am), made sure that did not happen. Why would you shame a young boy into tears who is just there trying to help out? It truly is a form of bullying by adults. If that was the norm, we would not be in scouts. (His troop does not do that.)
Yes, yes, and yes, thank you!
The boys in my son’s Troop seem to enjoy and take singing for lost items lightheartedly. Even the adults take part in singing ! I have never seen them force someone to sing, and it is done without malice. I have even seen other boys jump in to sing with a boy that was a little shy, and one boy led the Troop in a song. It isn’t about embarrassing or punishing the Scout, it is about them being accountable and responsible.
I think it depends on the climate of the Troop whether or not it is “appropriate”. As we saw while visiting Troops to join, each group of boys is very different.
I can’t say for certain that Lord Baden Powell started this tradition, but he did encourage singing silly songs and skits to lift spirits and create morale. In fact, morale means:
the confidence, enthusiasm, and discipline of a person or group at a particular time.
“their morale was high”
synonyms: confidence, self-confidence, self-esteem, spirit(s), team spirit, enthusiasm
“morale in the company has been high”
Done the way I have witnessed , I say it fits the definition of morale and I would not consider it bullying.
This practice doesn’t always teach a Scout to remember his gear next time. Often, rather than to submit to the humiliation, it will train many Scouts NOT to admit that the found item being held up before the Troop is theirs. Not every boy will take this as mild embarrassment. A previous comment included, “I see no bullying after by the other scouts and neither have my other leaders.” And you WON’T see the bullying, either. Meaning, bullying can be so subtle that you don’t recognize it as bullying. And yet, the affects on the victim remains the same.
There are plenty of ways for lessons to be learned, behaviors changed and responsibility developed that don’t include public humiliation, degrading, and shaming of a Scout due to a simple mistake.
After reflecting upon this thread a bit… a couple of additional thoughts…
From a “patrol method” perspective the most correct answer is “B”.
From a YP perspective… “the BSA’s top volunteer in charge of Youth Protection asks you to rethink that practice”. Honestly, if that is the most emphatic answer that person can come up with then maybe that person needs to be replaced. Sorry, bullying by adults should be a line in the sand not something we “rethink”.
Actually scouting doesn’t need people to rethink this. Scouting needs people to stop doing this and other similarly damaging actions. The BSA has NOT been clear enough about inappropriate YP actions for adults unless it was related to sexual abuse. What constitutes bullying by adults is “common sense” and all too many others are simply clueless. Not until BSA defines and clarifies adult bullying will all Scouters come close to being on the same page.
Just the fact there is so much disagreement in this thread speak volumes about how much work is needed to be done on this subject!
when done in good natured fun, it’s not bullying. If the child is being forced to do it against his will, then yes it’s bullying. When I was in the Navy, it was a tradition that on your birthday you were given a pink belly. I had a bad experience once with getting pink bellies and absolutely hated them. When I refuse to get a pink belly on my birthday, the senior person in the area told everyone not to give it to me, and the matter was dropped, and never brought up again. Another boy with the same birthday didn’t mind and took the pink belly.
We are not a nation of robots, we are a nation of individuals. Each person is unique, and should be handled as an individual, any one size fits all policy with a few exceptions like to deep leadership, will not work. My son’s troop has over a hundred and fifty boys registered. At every meeting there is three or four who get up and sing I’m a little teapot and love doing it. we don’t even tell them to do it they just go up and do it. There are a few boys who don’t like doing it, and have never been made to do it. No one comments either way on whether or not a boy will or will not do it.
To say this is a form of bullying is ridiculous. It’s as ridiculous as saying a kid is violent because he ate a pop-tart into the shape of a gun. There are going to be times in life when you have to suffer consequences for mistakes you make, be it at work, in school, on a team, or other places. What’s next major league baseball batting finding players when they make a mistake because that’s bullying. Firing somebody from my job because they messed up is bullying. Let’s focus on the real issues and stop with the BS ones.
Yes, there are consequences for mistakes in life. But firing somebody from a job because they made a mistake is NOT bullying. Having them stand up during a full-company staff meeting and force them to sing a song and do a dance silly for your amusement and then publicly berating them and firing them in front of everyone because they messed up is bullying and probably unlawful workplace harassment too. It’s akin to ‘quid pro quo’ harassment (“I’ll give you something, but only if you degrade yourself first”).
There is nothing wrong with consequences, but there is something wrong with public humiliation and shaming of someone.
In Scouting we praise in public and we correct in private.
“Singling out a Scout in front of other Scouts is inappropriate and can be damaging to that Scout. ” Really??? So I guess we should stop handing out badges & rank in front of the boys who didn’t advance this week? No more Eagle Courts of Honor because it makes the non-Eagles feel inadequate? Knock out the NONSENSE and stop over-protecting these young men.
We’ve done “Gray Squirrel” or “Little Tea Post” for lost items in our troop and the boys LOVE IT… and I emphasize that that INCLUDES the one you say is being “bullied”. In fact, most of the time his entire patrol jumps up and sings along with him. It’s good fun with the subliminal message that, “yea… I’m expected to be more careful with my belongings.”
I’d never condone “bullying” or “harassment”. I’m here to build these young men up, not tear them down. But if you think this light-hearted (age-old) fun now constitutes bullying, then we better be prepared to water-down Scouting in 100 other ways too.
Positive reinforcement. Not negative. Big difference.
“Bullying”? “Harassment”?
My, we’ve become sensitive.
Come to think of it, “Scouts” sounds a bit too “rugged”–shouldn’t we soften that up, too, for those who might not be into camping, hiking, etc.
Good Lord, this program is doomed.
Do the leaders have to sing if they’ve forgotten something?
I have sung for my lost stuff (as an adult). Sadly, if I had to sing EVERY time I misplaced something, I would go hoarse!
Our leaders do (and have). There is also a level of discretion involved in when and where to do it. Zero Tolerance policies are inane.
Scouters, please. One size does not fit all, as this dialog demonstrates. If we are to develop character, we need to use the Oath and Law to encourage Scouts to consider what is best for the other Scout. One Scout’s shaming is to another singing Scout great fun or a growth in confidence experience. Rather than seek some lowest common denominator in rule making, let’s get to know our Scouts so that we give each the response he needs. A Troop parent who is a house parent for foster kids says it this way – “I will treat you all equally, but that does not mean I will treat you all the same.”
Of COURSE hazing is wrong, and the ‘abused becoming the abusers’ cycle of hazing is one of our worst human failings.
I won’t stand for humiliation of a Scout.
I also won’t stand in the way of a Scout who needs/wants/enjoys singing in front of the Troop, or deny a Senior Patrol Leader the opportunity to consider which is about to be the case, and to decide how to lead in the best way for that individual.
I don’t always get it right, and then I get to model how to make an apology and amends.
I appreciate all the Scouters who care enough about the boys to express their opinions on this post! I also reserve the right to learn a better way and then disagree with myself at some future point. My bottom line until then:
It’s hard work, but character building produces longer lasting benefits than rule making.
We don’t make people sing but we don’t stop them if they want to, which is usually the case. As SM, I’d like to think I know how each boy would best respond or the other ASMs or parents would know and be able to prevent anything from happening that shouldn’t. It appears to me that losing something is a chance to get attention, not singling out or bullying. We have boys that lose stuff on purpose – and once we figure this out, they don’t get asked to sing. We have the shy boys who would never sing. And then we have the boys that recognize that singing will help them stop forgetting things. Getting the patrol or troop to sing along is a great idea.
Trying to make a blanket statement that covers all boys isn’t always a good idea or practical. Adult and youth leadership need to know the boys, the situation, and the boys need to know themselves.
If we are worried about embarrassing and singling out boys, perhaps we should stop skits and songs at campfires.
Anybody who is conflicted over this issue should refer to Point #6 of the Scout Law. Points #3 and #4 also apply.
Points 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 also apply if you carefully think about what each point means. Oh, wait that’s all 12!
Scouters must understand and remember that a bully will always deny their actions are harmful to someone else and attempt to rationalize and justify their actions. These are manipulation and control techniques that are well known and well documented.
Option D: I would approach the scout and quietly ask “Mr. So and So have you misplaced anything”? For most scouts, this causes them to run a quick inventory check.
Sometimes they identify it. Sometimes they can’t. But it gets them thinking about it. Occasionally, it involves a little more back and forth. And sometimes they fail miserably. Which is OK too.
Then we return it – no strings attached. And we remind them to thank the adult / scout who returned it to them. You know… Kind of like real life…
Clearly someone who “get’s it”! It would be a pleasure to serve with you at any time, any place!
Lets look at the resource cited in the article. Stopbullying.gov.
Bullying Definition
An unhappy teen boy walks away from bullying girls. Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated, or has the potential to be repeated, over time. Both kids who are bullied and who bully others may have serious, lasting problems.
In order to be considered bullying, the behavior must be aggressive and include:
An Imbalance of Power: Kids who bully use their power—such as physical strength, access to embarrassing information, or popularity—to control or harm others. Power imbalances can change over time and in different situations, even if they involve the same people.
Repetition: Bullying behaviors happen more than once or have the potential to happen more than once.
Bullying includes actions such as making threats, spreading rumors, attacking someone physically or verbally, and excluding someone from a group on purpose.
Let’s assume that is a proper definition of bullying. I’m not smart enough to know if it is perfect, but it seems like a reasonable definition. So lets measure singing to reclaim your lost nalgene.
Is it Aggresive?
I have a hard time seeing that GOOD NATURED singing, in a group, supported in a good natured way by everyone as aggressive. It could be, but only if approached from a mean spirited point of view.
Imbalance of power?
That is inherent in everything we do. Adults have power over kids, SPLs have a measure of position power inherent in being SPL. But, is that imbalance of power being used to harm or control?
Threats, spreading rumors, attacking someone?
I have a very hard time seeing singing as being in the same category as these behaviors.
Certainly context is everything. Everything we do can be done from a right and proper motive or from an improper motive. Every thing we do can be done well or done poorly. But to say that lost items have to be returned in secret lest we damage a kids well being. Are we then at the kindergarten soccer model of scouting. Everyone gets a trophy for signing up for the team, because if they don’t get a trophy it will damage their self esteem.
Anyone who wears Wood Badge beads knows in Scouting we “praise in public” and “correct in private”.
We are raising a generation of emotional weaklings. Cite some statistics, Dr. Wilson, that prove that making a boy sing “promotes an environment of harassment,” “creates greater risk of bullying,” or “creates a cycle of bullying.” Do you have stats? Or is that merely your opinion? Enough of this is enough. At the scout camp where my son served on staff, staff was told they could no longer call the blood line “the blood line” because some hypothetical person somewhere might become traumatized by the expression. Are we taking boys and trying to make them men? Or just what are we trying to make them?
Is this officially banned by BSA policy? That is, as a scoutmaster, if I officially maintain a policy of singing for a lost item, I will be officially removed from my post by National? If so, which executives have signed off on this policy, and where is it officially documented in Scouting regulations?
Please clarify.
With all due respect, if you’re wondering whether there’s a BSA policy saying not to bully Scouts, I’d suggest you take Youth Protection training again.
No, he is asking if this specific act, singing “I’m a Little Teapot” when a scout loses something, is banned. As indicated by the widely disparate responses to this article, clearly not everyone views this act as bullying, harassment, or abuse.
Why are you being so discourteous?
What about my post was unclear? Who, exactly, at National, would I need to talk to get an answer to my questions?
I would think that “Due Respect” would merit a polite answer to my questions, rather than your rather rude reply.
Thank you.
Louis Fuka & Jeep Regan —
Dr. Jim Wilson, the national chairman of the BSA’s Youth Protection Committee, has already answered your question (re-read the blog post above).
BSA policy clearly prohibits bullying (you should re-take Youth Protection training if you’re not aware of that).
And Dr. Wilson affirmed in his response that this type of act is “a form of bullying and harassment,” and therefore is the kind of behavior that is unacceptable and prohibited in Scouting.
If you still need further clarification email youth.protection@scouting.org.
If singing for your missing item applies to everyone how is it bullying? With the logic given here the communications merit badge is bullying making a scout get in front of the troop and give a speech because this merit badge is required for the eagle rank. Whats the difference? I am not defending the practice but pointing out holes in the logic of the stance by the youth protection executive.
If you sir, are in fact a Scoutmaster, I beg you to please go through all of the required training to become “Trained” in your position. Additionally, I think you would benefit from taking Wood Badge as well. Thank you for stepping up to be a leader, but I think you are looking at this from the perspective of someone who has been bullied as either a youth or as an adult. Because you were put into this position you believe that it is okay for others to be put into this position. Break the cycle and use positive reinforcement as a leader.
Bob, thank you for your suggestion — I don’t remember anything in my Wood Badge class or any of my other training that specifically addressed singing for a lost item, pro or con. In fact, until today, I haven’t seen any discussion on this topic, nor has there been any burning controversy over the practice itself. Thus my request (sadly, still unfulfilled) for clarification.
In any large organization, there arise these sudden storms of controversy where a prevalent practice is suddenly vilified. In this case, it appears that singing for a lost item is now classified as OMG TERRIBLE. This may coalesce into documented policy, or it may just mysteriously fade away into something some troops do, and some troops don’t and no one much cares either way.
In either case, thank you to Dr. Jim Wilson, Bryan Wendall, and of course yourself for your opinions and advice.
Oh I can just see this headline (http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/05/15/boy-scout-finds-bag-containing-4500-in-cash-does-what-boy-scouts-do/) in the alternate-reality where this kind of practice is okay:
“Boy Scout finds bag containing $4,500 in cash, makes owner sing ‘I’m a Little Teapot’ to get it back”
Come on, people! Public embarrassment, humiliation, shaming, degrading, penalizing, and singling-out of a Scout and having them jump-through arbitrary hoops to “pay” for a mistake is 1,000% not the Scout-like way to handle a situation.
The new Boy Scout slogan: “Do a good turn daily… but first make them sing for it!”
Actually, if I ever find a large bag of money, that is EXACTLY what I’m going to do! “You can have your money back, but you have to sing ‘I’m a Little Teapot’ first.”
Thanks for the cool idea!
Unfortunately, bullies believe it is fun. The bullied or harassed does not. The victim is the one who needs to decide whether this is a good idea, not the bully or the bystander. The victim is too traumatized to say anything at the moment and will not return. Bully training is not done enough in Scouts. We see a lot of long-time, older scout leaders who refuse to retrain and want to do things like when they were in Scouts. But when they are called out for having bully type behavior they classify those people as wimps or weak. Training is where we learn what definitions are of hazing and bullying (pretty much the same thing). Although I am not a Wood Badger I totally agree with TFC with the comment “Praise in public, correct in private” How many of you commenting in this thread wear Wood Badge beads? Everyone read these aloud to yourself: A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.
Agreed and well said, Rob. Just because we did it when we were kids does not make it right today.
And for those of you who say that this is OK because the whole Patrol will join in — perhaps the boys in the troop recognize that one of their brothers is being harassed, and because they are Kind and Loyal they try to correct it by showing solidarity with their fellow Scout? Because THEY know that the Scout Law stands for something, even if the troop culture (which is perpetuated by the adults in most cases) thinks that hazing is ok?
A found item should be, if identifiable, returned to the boy by his patrol leader, of if in cubs, the den leader. If not identifiable, put it in a “Lost and Found”, and mention at gatherings that if they had lost something, then they should check it out. The scoutmaster/cubmaster/SPL is not a Parris Island D.I., but a mentor for the boys.
Development can and should occur with a positive presentation. If the boy does it multiple times, the SM/CM should talk with him, and discern the problem. Constant losing of things may indicate carelessness, or something on a behavioral spectrum, of acting out against things happening at home.
While I see how some could view this as harmless, I would hate for the embarrassment to interfere with someone continuing is scouts. Some scouts could feel it is a form of bullying, and now when I was growing up, back in the dark ages, you were told to suck it up and get over it, I can see how that was, at least for some destructive.
I would have to, after saying all of this, come down on the side of not singing for lost items, although I think one of the things parents should do is stop being their kids’ “friends” and at home help them build healthy self-esteem so that any bullying would roll off their back, and would equip the scout, at least older ones, to inform a leader participating in this that they feel they are in violation of YPT and if it continues, they will report it.
[Once again, I took a simple response and turned it into an 262 word essay ending with an 86-word sentence – oh well, my grandson tells me if he asks what time it is, I tell him about how clocks are made, and give him a history of time-keeping!]
;-}>
In or pack we do sing. “We” sing. It’s never a solo punishment. Usually there ends up being 20 scouts up there all having fun and we forget why it even started. It’s also voluntary. Even if the scout doesn’t want to sing the rest of us will. No-one leaves embarrassed. Society is raising heart on sleeve children. Toughen then up our they will fail as adults.
We had a bullying practice going on in our council forever. At our Cub Scout camp, whoever entered the dining hall without removing their hat would immediately have their hat rtaken from them and hung on our resident moose head for all to see. I think there are a fair number of these kind of practices that have gone on in various councils forever. Thankfully, they are slowing fading into the sunset as people become more aware of just exactly what bullying is and how it affects (and in some cases, how long it affects) the child that is the target. Scouting may be this child’s only safe haven.
–Stating that benign consequences like singing for lost stuff raises to the standard of abuse is NOT TRUSTWORTHY.
–Getting up to sing with another scout because he is ebarresed IS LOYAL.
–Setting clear negative consequences to change poor behaviour IS HELPFUL.
–Jumping on stage to help a fellow patrol member sing IS FRIENDLY.
–Making sure the scout is comfortable singing in from of the unit before making him do it IS COURTEOUS.
–Providing negative consequences outside of someone’s comfort zone to help them become responsible IS VERY KIND.
–Complying with the Guide to Safe Scouting IS OBEDIENT.
–Singing with or for your unit IS CHEERFUL.
–Being responsible for not loosing your gear IS THRIFTY.
–Singing in front of your unit Is BRAVE.
–Brushing yiur teet before singing for the unit IS CLEAN. (Best I could do)
–Treating God’s beautiful beloved children with respect IS Reverent.
On balance I am going with Singing for lost stuff is NOT the issue here.
The mission of BSA to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law is.
If a scout lost something and knew the ‘traditional’ consequence was to sing for it. I would give him a choice to do that or something much less fun but not public if he was really concerned about singing out of respect for him.
It would make me proud to see his Patrol or SPL join him to have his back if they saw he was embarrassed. I see a great moment for the Oath and Law to come alive.
Having said that we live in a culture where teaching personal responsibility and scouting values are less important than political correctness.
Given that, the most acceptable answer is to reread and clarify the specifics about singing and the definition of hazing in the Guide to safe Scouting, and based on the results, classify singing as bullying and not allow it in the unit.
Oh yea and make sure I police up and collect lost stuff after meetings and campouts.
Singling individuals out for public shaming teaches them to avoid accepting responsibility.
If we use the Scout Oath and Law here as our guideline how can public shaming be considered helpful, friendly, or kind?
Silly songs and skits are a part of Scouting and have been since its inception. Turning them into a tool of punishment is a sad use of this long tradition.
You know what’s a shame? When leading a song has become shameful, but littering has not.
I’ve been a Scout Leader (Cub & Troop) for many years and had never seen the “singing for an item” until our summer camp last year. A Scout had found a Staff badge and during Wed. night’s campfire a few from his Troop called the Staff out and asked him to sing. The Camp Director stepped in and abruptly said, “No! That’s bullying!!!” and began a litany of reprimanding all of us. Of course, you’re going to get a few boo’s from the crowd. The Camp Director then made all 900 attendees stand up and say the Scout Law. It completely killed any fun that we were having. Needless to say, that was the end of the campfire.
On the other hand, there were skits during that campfire that involved: beating up a Scout, stealing, making fun of Latinos and killing a person…but NONE of those abhorrent skits were called out.
It seems that 1. we’re trying to micromanage Troop culture. I think that if it’s done in good fun and without malice, we should let the boys (within reason) carry on with their traditions. and 2. *real* bullying needs to be stopped. There are too many Troops that turn a blind eye or don’t know that bullying is going on.
There needs to be better training on how to properly manage situations where a Scout has been identified as a bully.
Can someone point to a process? Our troop has tried to manage (for years) a boy who was picking on a younger one (by the true definition of bullying) and it didn’t stop until the older one aged out and was asked not to return…but it shouldn’t have gone on as long as it did.
A real bully (and it could be someone who always makes the younger scouts sing but covers for his friends or the adults) needs to be called out on his behavior, suspended, and should he fail to reform, expelled. Unfortunately, you don’t know who’s the real bully until you’ve granted those attempts to reform.
I am shocked that this stuff is still happening. I thought we did away with this during the “safe haven” days (well before the current Youth Protection emphasis). I haven’t seen this since the 1980s. Or earlier?
COURAGE SCOUTERS! Traditions generate fond associations. Yet, are we not about striving at all times to set a good example of living the Scout Oath and Law for the youth we serve? If you are one who still believes that this practice of singing to get back lost items is OK and even helpful, even more so when it becomes a Patrol or even whole troop performance, please withhold your judgement and take a little time to reflect and be honest with yourself. It takes courage to be willing to recognize something that is wrong, stop it and change when this is one of those things that has such enjoyment in watching others being embarrassed or humiliated.
Three years ago at a multi-district Spring Camporee the “Teapot Song” was being required of Scouts to get back items that they had lost during the event. This was unexpected as it had not happened in our district in my time. I and a number of other adults put an immediate stop to this as the first Scout brought up was clearly very humiliated and embarrassed. I wrote the following to our district executive after the event and I think it was helpful in changing the culture of our district and possibly the Council.
“I was reflecting on the way home on how to communicate no tolerance of “Teapot” type of behavior and realized that it was really a YPT violation. It was a form of misuse of an imbalance of power, hazing, and bullying. It also violated the rule that correction of Scouts must be handled privately (if correction was really necessary for a lost item). Asking the Scouts questions in front of everyone was inappropriate as well. Even asking a Scout to recite the Scout Oath put him on the spot, making him feel embarrassed and pressured to perform. And it did not reflect the “Values to Live By.” So, I thought, how do we change this?
First with any bully, we need to stop the bullying and make it clear that it cannot continue.
Second, re-education and orientation for leaders possibly at Roundtables at both districts and probably Council wide.
Third empowering the Scouts to recognize, resist and report, the 3 R’s of personal safety and protection from pg 65 of the Scout Handbook and a requirement for Second Class.
I was surprised that some of my Scouts didn’t even realize how this behavior was injurious, abusive, etc. It took some time to explain it to them and help them come to understand that not only was it wrong, but how they should respond should anything like that happen to them again. I suggested that they first say “NO!” and then “I will not be embarrassed or humiliated in front of others and if you won’t give me the item I lost and speak to me privately if I need correction, then I will get it later” and then walk away.
Our troop is showing “A Time to Tell” and “Personal Safety Awareness” next week to the Scouts in our troop and their parents as part of our annual YPT training for the youth. I will definitely use this experience as an example to help the Scouts be better prepared to handle future bullying and abuse situations.”
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
YES! You have nailed it on EVERY level and point! THANK YOU!
A Scout needs to be held accountable for forgetting something, and singing/doing a little dance is a harmless way for him to remember that he needs to check his gear and make sure it’s all there. (BE PREPARED). If they want to be forgetful at home, that’s their parents’ problem. In Scouting, we’re trying to teach them to be responsible adults and LEADERS!!
It really isn’t harmless. Next time a shy person at work makes a mistake, have them stand up in front of everyone and sing ‘I’m a little Tea Pot’ and see how harmless it is.
Anything that makes anyone uncomfortable is bullying today. Except for actual bullying. That is usually hidden and not dealt with. As I remember my OA ordeal weekend would have most definitely been considered bullying today. Pretty soon the rank of Eagle will mean nothing because the liberals will say it is bullying to set any one scout above the others, and that it makes the scouts who do not earn it uncomfortable. The “a trophy for everyone” types have usherred in a society where everyone is looking for a way to be labeled a victim, because it is just too dificult to make it on their own. Now we have nearly half the population on some form of public assistance. Life is difficult, sometimes we will be uncomfortable. Iwent tthrough it. I feel I am stronger for it. Things that make us “uncomfortable” are the times when we grow, the times we learn to adapt, to overcome.
Thinking on this, I decided to put myself in the shoes of one of our brand new Scouts, in a hypothetical exercise. The smallest, shyest of the bunch, and introvert who likes Scouting and being part of the group.
Now, I am out camping with my brand new Troop. I am happy to be there, but still a bit leery of the group. During the camp out, my brand new water bottle goes missing. Mom will be mad that she paid $20 bucks for a nice filtered one. I cant find it. So I am already upset about it.
Then a leader, and adult I hardly know, starts asking for me to come forward, they have something for me. What is it? I get to where the leader is standing and there is a group of other Scouts, my peers, and some adults, and someone is holding my water bottle! Great! Mom wont be mad at me.
But wait, the SPL tells me I have to sing to get it back. Sing? Yes, sing. Now again, I am a shy, introverted kid, and now I am TERRFIED to have to sing in front of these people… I say no. They say yes. I again say no. Now Im scared, it is mine , just give it back to me! They say you have to do it or you are not getting it back…
Some kids will at this point just do it and get it over with. Some will not no matter what. Then they go home and tell their parents. Then that Scout is gone from the Troop and those parents are telling EVERYONE they knowhow bad that Troop is…
Put yourself in the shoes of your smallest, shyest, newest Scout before making a decision to make him sing.
Yes! You put it perfectly
I posted this in a reply buried but I will post it here also.
How is this bullying if all members are held to the same standard adult and scout alike. If singing for a missing item is bullying then the communications merit badge is bullying because it requires a scout to get in front of the troop to give a speech they cannot get eagle without this merit badge. I’m not defending the practice but poking holes in the logic of the youth protection executives definition of bullying.
Completely agree!!!
Lets also get rid of Skits since they have to get up in front of everyone and sing or perform and according to this author shame them. How about getting rid of long hikes, that is only bullying them to walk a long distance in the woods (gasp). How about KP duty. I mean isn’t doing dishing a punishment? what are we trying to teach them these days, if its too hard don’t do it?
1. Not all scouts choose to be become an Eagle.
2. A scout should be able to choose to take the Communication merit badge when he is ready on his own time.
3. The scout will choose when he is ready to get up in front of an audience and do something he has prepared and is prepared to give.
4. No one should ever be required to “earn” back their own personal property by singing or any other means.
I don’t know of any unit that I have been in that makes shaming a part of their troop/pack culture. Nor any that turns Bobcats upside down. That is not right. We even need to be aware of children who may not want to read somethign out loud or participate in front of Pack program by reading or holding a sign or letter (even like C-U-B…..) at the front of the pack. Be kind and respectful.
So everyone on here says this is bullying??? WOW!!! I fail to see how it is bullying as long as no one is making fun of them or calling them names. THAT would be bullying them. Making them do something (singing or otherwise) to earn back something they lost or misplaced is far from bullying! As the one poster said, his kids join in and have lots of fun with it. Kids need to learn how to take responsibility for their actions and be able to stand up in front of their peers without feeling like it is scary, horrible or a bad thing. If singing is bullying, then I need to go back and sue my elementary school for all the singing I was forced to do growing up! Ridiculous how far this country is sinking and giving into the PC crowd that looks for anything and everything to get outraged over! I am scared to see what this country is going to be like in another 20-40 years. Its going to be a sorry world for our kids to be living in.
I had never heard of this “tradition” before reading this article. I can see how to some it is nothing more than a chance to showoff while to others it could be top of the list of horrible things that could happen to them. So, no I don’t think a blanket rule is the answer. I don’t see it as bullying, but as hazing. Any time you seek to embarrass someone or cause them to do something they would not do of their own accord for a simple mistake is an inappropriate response. For those who believe their boys enjoy this, I give you the benefit of belief. But I dare you to ask them to vote, anonymously. You may be surprised. If you think this will in any (positive) way “help” them to take care of their stuff, I challenge you. I would not be the slightest bit bothered by performing in public. But it also would not help me be more “responsible”. I know. My 8th grade math teacher tried it. While I hammed it up and got plenty of attention, I still didn’t turn in my homework. It took years of experimenting with different options: lists, assigned “homes” for items, more lists, alarms, phone notifications, sticky notes, and again more checlists just to get through the day without forgetting or losing something on most days. Maybe having a more constructive response will achieve the desired result. Which, in reality, is to produce an adult who lives a positive life, contributes to society, & makes a positive impact on the world around him, NOT to produce a camper who makes it home with everything or a carbon copy of ourselves.
If enforcing a “negative” consiqunce for a mistake is bullying, can we consider all parents bullies? Where do we draw the line?
Singing is hardly the end of the world, and applause should be had at the end of the song. Applause being a positive response.
Our Scoutmaster will assign some sort of punishment for lost items or some such thing simply as a matter of learning to take better care of your things. I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone having to sing but they can be made to do the dishes by themselves, be last in line for dinner, or have to carry someone’s stuff. These are punishments, reminders, and while the boys are teased a bit about it “oh, keep track of your water bottle and you won’t have to do the dishes” kind of thing, it’s never mean spirited. It also applies to everyone. The boys determine the punishment but the Scoutmaster must approve. If she says no, then they have to think of something else. She sometimes asks the boy what his punishment should be, what would remind him not to do what he did. I’d rather do the dishes than be last in line for dinner with Boy Scouts.