Rifles carried on Apache helicopters

[YoYoMa]

I was not aware that the crew of Apache helicopters carried rifles with them but this picture seems to indicate they do:

http://oi49.*******.com/1zl3or6.jpg

It appears to be a disassembled L85A2 but not 100% sure.

Is this common practice to carry rifles on Apaches?

I guess it could be useful if you're shot down behind enemy lines though the best advice would probably be to hide and stay quiet.

[Az_esm]

Is that prince Harry?
In his case it would be rather logical not only having rifle but also some vial of cyanide in teethp-)

[kevlar308]

Over the years I've seen several pics of US Apache crews with M4s. There was a thread somewhere about a former infantry Apache pilot that carried a M249 and stand alone M203.

[asgnr]

It appears to be a disassembled L85A2 but not 100% sure.

It’s the L22A2 carbine fitted with a folding forward grip attached to the forward under rail system. The barrel does not extend far forward from the pistol grip on the carbine version and the restraint harness on the Apache clearly covers it completely.


Is this common practice to carry rifles on Apaches?

Yes. All British Apache air crew carry rifles and full infantry style webbing/chest rigs, helmets and even day packs.


I guess it could be useful if you're shot down behind enemy lines though the best advice would probably be to hide and stay quiet.

It’s pretty hard to stay quiet and hidden after coming down in a shot down helicopter. The idea is that the aircrew will be able to defend themselves and link up and blend in with nearby friendly infantry. As most attack helicopter combat operations are in direct support of ground forces they are likely to be on hand. If they are shot down without nearby ground forces the equipment in their webbing and pack and the carbine are going to assist their survival far more than not having same.

[isrousro]

If you scroll down on Todays Photos you will see a American Apache with a rifle in the same position.
Don't know if it is a M-4 or a M-16 as most of it is blocked, but you can see the magazine and barrel.

[Elbs]

They've been carrying rifles and SMGs since the early days of Vietnam.

[devilchien0105]

I thought most of them would carry light SMGs like the MP5 or MP5K??? M14 is kinda bigger than I expected!!!

[asgnr]

I thought most of them would carry light SMGs like the MP5 or MP5K??? M14 is kinda bigger than I expected!!!

There’s no ejection seat or parachute escape in a helicopter so if you get down and are still alive afterwards there is no reason you need to have some kind of compact weapon that can be carried on the body. Like HRH the Ginger Prince seen here there is plenty of room for a 5.56mm carbine (or rifle) beside him and more room in the storage bay for webbing and a day pack or maybe even a LSW.

[BLUE THOR]

I thought most of them would carry light SMGs like the MP5 or MP5K??? M14 is kinda bigger than I expected!!!

Well, stands to reason. An AK is more accurate in even a poor marksmans hands when up close. might take a little bit more to get out of the plane but gives you alot more punch, range and accuracy so sounds good to me. Might be an EBR or other folding / collapsable stock version.

[Eggy]

Seems to be a normal thing. Dutch Apache in Afghanistan.

http://www.abload.de/img/apache_highres0dkkjy.jpg

[DID]

By definition the Apache is a anti-armor attack helicopter, so it operate close to the battlefield.
In case of emergency if the helicopter is downed it will probalbly be in or close around the fighting area, this situation make the pilot and gunner easy to be found: first because the falling helicopter is easy to spot, and because he fall next to ennemi position in most cases.
At the opposit the fighter Jet fly high above the ground and if the pilot must eject it happen far from ennemi ground force also the wind can take him to anywhere. So by nature attack helicopter pilots need heavy weapon to protect themself and take part in action directly if they survive, the fighter jet pilots must first of all save is life and protect strategic information he have in mind.
I also agree with asgnr quote, it sound right.

[Squirrel-Cop]

When my dad flew Cobras, back in the 80's and 90's, he told me that it was standard practice to jam an m-16 in the ammo bay under the pilot/gunner. He said it was because: "You're not going to fight your way to freedom with the .38 revolver"

[QuiGon]

I heard about one incident where an Apache co-pilot had to grab his rifle because their Apache landed in the middle of an enemy strongpoint to rescue a Royal Marine, who had been left behind.
You can read more about that here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jan/21/afghanistan.world
Or watch this video: http://youtu.be/x6qHcd4imKk

The Apache and his wingman had to land inside the so called "Jugroom Fort", a strongpoint held by taliban forces, to drop four soldieres that were sitting on the stub wings of the Apaches and volunteered to rescue the lost marine. But when they landed the soldiers lost orientation due to heavy smoke and dust so the co-pilot of one of the apaches had to grab his rifle and get out to lead the soldiers:



In the blind-out of the dust storm, and with enemy forces loosing off wild bursts of fire, they had lost all sense of which was the direction in which to find him. The soldiers' confusion was clearly audible to the Apache aircrew over the radio net, and Tom's co-pilot, Staff Sergeant Keith Arthur, decided to help.
From the vantage point of the Apache's cockpit he'd got a good fix on the Royal Marine's position as the aircraft had gone in to land. Folding back the slabs of side armour so he could exit the aircraft, he grabbed his SA-80-2K carbine, which was jammed into the space beside his seat, and vaulted out of the cockpit to lead the way.
Abstract of the book "Apache Dawn" written by british journalist Damien Lewis.

[Preylord]

http://youtu.be/x6qHcd4imKk

...to drop four soldieres that were sitting on the stub wings of the Apaches and volunteered to rescue the lost marine...

Holy S*** !!! I defently DONT want to SIT on this position of an Apache... these guys have balls...

greetz

[Einhander]

Sitting on a stubwings midflight, scanning the ground below.. WTF. That was badass!

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Holy S*** !!! I defently DONT want to SIT on this position of an Apache... these guys have balls...

greetzIIRC its a pretty well-documented incident and yes... badass. I presume it is this incident...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6qHcd4imKk

[FaderGurka]

Massive balls of brass!!!

[The Armchair Soldier]

I recommend you watch this video from the BBC, showing Harry explaining most of the things in his Apache. One of the first things he talks about is his carbine:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21123064

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Wow, insane! I hope they get a medal and lots of beer for that. Even though it's probably "irresponsible and reckless behaviour" as seen from above...

[Carbean]

Wow, insane! I hope they get a medal and lots of beer for that. Even though it's probably "irresponsible and reckless behaviour" as seen from above...

It is actually a normal thing i think its like that so if a Apache goes down another can go and pick them up.

[RangerChallenge]

Wow, insane! I hope they get a medal and lots of beer for that. Even though it's probably "irresponsible and reckless behaviour" as seen from above...


Check out the book Apache by Ed Macy

[Royal]

It is actually a normal thing i think its like that so if a Apache goes down another can go and pick them up.

Normal is stretching things, but there are harness points above the wings to allow this to be done.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Normal is stretching things, but there are harness points above the wings to allow this to be done.

Do you mean as in "hold on for dear life" harness points or something that you can actually anchor yourself to?

[Moose_Hates_You]

I was not aware that the crew of Apache helicopters carried rifles with them but this picture seems to indicate they do:

http://oi49.*******.com/1zl3or6.jpg

It appears to be a disassembled L85A2 but not 100% sure.

Is this common practice to carry rifles on Apaches?

I guess it could be useful if you're shot down behind enemy lines though the best advice would probably be to hide and stay quiet.

All British Army aircrew carry a rifle/carbine and a pistol. AH crews use the Sig whilst the Lynx crews use the browning. The carbine was originally designed and procured for AFV crews, but was subsequently supplied to front seat aircrew as space is of a premium in the cockpit. All airframes have purpose built mounts on the crew seats for the weapon to protect it in an impact.

As for personal equipment, it is all carried on the aircrew LCJ (Load Carrying Jerkin) and the issued patrol bag. Mainly ammunition and water, however the LCJ contains survival equipment should it be required. Aviation Crewman are an exception to this, they have dispensation to wear Osprey in the rear of the Lynx due to it's increased protection and the lack of armoured seat.

There is a comprehensive SERE plan, but that is classified as SECRET, but the basics are probably out there on the net! As for personnel recovery, Jugroom Fort was a one off, All personnel recovery would be taken care of by the USAF Pararescuemen, who were not tasking to TF Helmand at that time. Recovery would be via their HH-60's or by a team utilising a different aircraft type. Along with that would be a rather large stack of aviation assets to protect the downed crew.

[Einhander]

What's next US/NATO gunship-chopper I wonder, will it have space for additional crew after such cases?

[Moose_Hates_You]

Do you mean as in "hold on for dear life" harness points or something that you can actually anchor yourself to?

All UK aircrew are issued a Nylon sling and Karabiner for emergency recovery. There are handles to the aft of the rear cockpit door that you tie onto. Much prefer that method over the Cobra recovery option.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

All UK aircrew are issued a Nylon sling and Karabiner for emergency recovery. There are handles to the aft of the rear cockpit door that you tie onto. Much prefer that method over the Cobra recovery option.

Thanks for that clarification, i was just wondering as the presence of dedicated harness points would very much insinuate there is an expectation for this sort of thing, whereas handles, well they could be for anything.

[Moose_Hates_You]

Thanks for that clarification, i was just wondering as the presence of dedicated harness points would very much insinuate there is an expectation for this sort of thing, whereas handles, well they could be for anything.

It was a technique we took from the americans. Our first tranche of QHI's did their training in the US way back when. It works, but is only an emergency option. The preferred option is to wait for the two HH-60's with is double hard specialists!

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

It was a technique we took from the americans. Our first tranche of QHI's did their training in the US way back when. It works, but is only an emergency option. The preferred option is to wait for the two HH-60's with is double hard specialists!

Slightly OT, but just quickly would you say there is a need for a similar unit in the British Armed Forces (to fulfill the elite pararescue jumpers niche i mean)?

[Moose_Hates_You]

Slightly OT, but just quickly would you say there is a need for a similar unit in the British Armed Forces (to fulfill the elite pararescue jumpers niche i mean)?

Ordinarily UKSF would be tasked with it, so no. But Op Herrick we're lucky to have dedicated specialists there.

[Carbean]

Normal is stretching things, but there are harness points above the wings to allow this to be done.

I didn't edit the quote down to this.


Even though it's probably "irresponsible and reckless behaviour"

[armored_diplomacy]

Well, I was about to ask how they fix it in case of ... when I remembered that AH-64´s don´t have ejection seats.

[Moose_Hates_You]

Well, I was about to ask how they fix it in case of ... when I remembered that AH-64´s don´t have ejection seats.


roflToo true!

[Squirrel-Cop]

Much prefer that method over the Cobra recovery option.

What is the Cobra option, clinging to the skids and hoping they don't fire rockets?

[James]

What is the Cobra option, clinging to the skids and hoping they don't fire rockets?

I think they open the panels for loading ammo under the cockpit and people can ride those in extremis.

[Watchdog 218]

THis photograph shows Prince Harry with the carbine. The short barrel can be clearly seen.
Copyright Daily Mail

194227

[Elbs]

An Israeli Cobra rescued a downed Phantom pilot in 1982. The guy grabbed on to the landing skid and held on for dear life.

[Ratamacue]

I think they open the panels for loading ammo under the cockpit and people can ride those in extremis.http://i.imgur.com/W9ljmIQ.jpg

[maumau]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl1V7yqsbWs

[maumau]

An Israeli Cobra rescued a downed Phantom pilot in 1982. The guy grabbed on to the landing skid and held on for dear life.i also found on youtube this footage of a mission to recover four golani troops stranded behind enemy territory after an IDF operation at Nueimeh, Lebanon <span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1q9pIXqVNI

[the_Dove]

i also found on youtube this footage of a mission to recover four golani troops stranded behind enemy territory after an IDF operation at Nueimeh, Lebanon <span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1q9pIXqVNI
IIRC, they were using built in harnesses & the ammo panels to sit on.
ELBS - you're refering to the rescue of Ron Arad's pilot
194231

[marktigger]

Teenee Weanee airways and Crabair used to carry HK53's in the cockpit in Northern Ireland

[beppe_goodoldrebel]

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac359/strega_8/SFODD/SFFreeride2.jpg

[Dossbag]

Even with ear defence on that must be deafening.

[Moose_Hates_You]

That weapon is out of service. All with the exception of a couple of units.

[telkon]

somewhere i read that HK PDW (MP7) was designed specifically for pilots and tank crews. is that correct?

[Royal]

That weapon is out of service. All with the exception of a couple of units.

It's long gone - the last ones were falling apart when I got out - and that was 2006. MP7s or L119s nowadays.

[Moose_Hates_You]

It's long gone - the last ones were falling apart when I got out - and that was 2006. MP7s or L119s nowadays.

Aye, the unit I was referring to was one of our specialist sqn's. they got rid last year. Tried for MP7, got told to wind it in and embrace the carbine. Which I bloody hate, long arms, bloody horrible to fire. Thankfully crewman have the choice. We chose rifle.

194291
We don't get posh mounts for ours. P-Strop and fresh air!

[tommyd]

An Israeli Cobra rescued a downed Phantom pilot in 1982. The guy grabbed on to the landing skid and held on for dear life.

What happened to his WSO ?

[Stone30]

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac359/strega_8/SFODD/SFFreeride2.jpg

gee, have any more photo's of this 2 guys?

Or was it Prince Harry body guards!

[GB_FXST]

What happened to his WSO ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Arad_%28pilot%29

[secondo]

194306 Standard training procedure in Italian Army Aviation