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SpoilersNecrophilia drama in /r/gameofthrones (np.reddit.com)

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[–]ZRam212 [スコア非表示]  (20子コメント)

Why is it always misogyny every single freaking time a woman is shown being anything but the main, strong, independent focal point?

[–]7minegg [スコア非表示]  (7子コメント)

It's not misogyny ... it's disturbing in a way I cannot articulate. There have been so many awful deaths in GoT, but the scenesthat haunted me the most was still-life Ros, Ros pierced with cross-bolts, and her eyes still open. Pregnant Talisa dies off-screen. I can't remember, Catelyn's death was not very dramatic, she gets her throat slit, it was utilitarian.

I'm thinking ... movies don't like to linger on women's deaths, even when it is deserved. I'm thinking of Fatima Blush's smoking shoes. In Batman the crooked female cop gets a knock-out punch. I can't think of anything, Irreversible, when the whole point of the movie is to showcase the horrible crime. We don't like to see women die, so I plead my case for no-misogyny?

I saw that gif. I'm sorry I did, it's tasteless and adds nothing to the discussion, don't see it.

ETA: You know what else, we don't like to see dead naked women. In Munich, much was made about whether to cover up the female assasin's body after they killed her. In Black Dahlia, the morbidly curious crime-scene was never re-enacted. There's some weird aversion to their vulnerability there, Ros death scene probably would not have been as impactful, had she been fully clothed.

[–]Sadistarn [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Wait pregnant Talisa definitely did not die off screen. I thought her death was particularly disturbing.

[–]7minegg [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Hmm, my mistake, in my recollection when Robb got to her she was already dead. It was his hand on her stomach that recall the fact that she was pregnant, and her gown in that area was blood-soaked.

[–]Sadistarn [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yea understandable based on how it was shot but the camera tilts up and zooms out a little after Talisa rubs her stomach and you can see that Rob is much too far away and not yet to her.

[–]ZRam212 [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I guess i'm just desensitized to this kind of fake death, as it doesn't feel me with any sort of emotion while looking at it. However, (SPOILERS FOR THOSE THAT HAVEN'T READ) reeks character change is the one thing that gets me. The day in and day out torture really gets me emotionally invested in the story.

I guess i just don't see how this gif can hurt so many people, I guess I'm just an asshole.

[–]7minegg [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Yeah, Reek's story is really horrible and worse than ... probably any character arc. But the show had no problem putting it out there, everything, even the act of violence itself.

I remember watching Death and the Maiden, and I was squirming the whole time, thinking about the unspoken torture of the woman.

[–]Shady_IntentButter Beast [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Reek's arc was amazingly done. I went from hating that character to pure sympathy for him. He was a total shit but no one deserves his fate.

[–]ZRam212 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

As much as a shit he is/was, you're right, no one deserves that kind of torture. I hope he at least earns an honorable death.

[–]EquipLordBritish [スコア非表示]  (10子コメント)

Probably because over 90% of the time movies and shows fail the Bechdel test; which effectively just makes them props to highlight other things in the movie.

[–]Hasaan5Can't believe it's not butter [Currently shilling for Runescape] [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

I love that the link you gave says that it's actually 40% that fail, not 90%. Plus the bechdel test is not infallible like many feminists claim it is, it is flawed and there are better ways to check is a movie is sexist or not. The test originates from a comic strip ffs.

[–]EquipLordBritish [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I don't see where you got the 40% number from the article... It says 58% of the 4500 movie database they surveyed. If you look at Blockbusters in the US, I think you'll have a much harder time finding ones that pass.

Plus the bechdel test is not infallible like many feminists claim it is, it is flawed and there are better ways to check is a movie is sexist or not.

No test is infallible. I just haven't heard of any of these other, unnamed, better tests you are talking about.

Disclaimer: I don't really have a horse in this race...

[–]Hasaan5Can't believe it's not butter [Currently shilling for Runescape] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I don't see where you got the 40% number from the article... It says 58% of the 4500 movie database they surveyed. If you look at Blockbusters in the US, I think you'll have a much harder time finding ones that pass.

Yes, 58% passed. Meaning 42% failed. Rounding those gets us 60% and 40%. Thus, more pass than fail.

No test is infallible. I just haven't heard of any of these other, unnamed, better tests you are talking about.

Part of your link. The Mako Mori test is one I think should be used more often. Pacific Rim fails the Bechdal test but I'd say it actually did a good job portraying women.

Disclaimer: I don't really have a horse in this race...

I don't either, but your comment just ended up being the straw that broke the camels back for me. SRD expresses it's love for it and similar concepts so often that it just gets on my nerves now.

[–]LolImSoBr00tal [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

So where did you get 90% from??

[–]Ciceros_Assassin- downvotes all /s tags regardless of comment quality [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

the bechdel test is not infallible like many feminists claim it is

The Bechdel Test is meant as a trend indicator, not a diagnostic tool. That is, a movie can fail the test and not be sexist. However, the fact that so much media does fail indicates a broader problem of sexism.

[–]ZRam212 [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

90% though really? I mean sure if all you ever watch is romcons

[–]EquipLordBritish [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

I should specify: popular movies in the US.

[–]ZRam212 [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

Ah. My point I believe I was trying to make is that it kind of feels that the people enjoying the movies and shows that don't have a strong female lead are misogynists. Maybe I do have some misogynist tendencies, but I don't believe everyone who enjoys this media should be labeled as one.

[–]EquipLordBritish [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

Yeah, I just mean from their perspective, it's like there are very few popular movies that feature women.

Making a movie without a female lead does not make you a misogynist. Doing that because you think women aren't capable of being a lead character, or that women should never lead, then you are a misogynist.

[–]ZRam212 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

I can see that if the shoe was on the other foot I'd be pretty upset as well. Thanks for the discussion!

[–]beanfiddlernow accepting tithes of foreskins and well-done kosher steak [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's how they die that's the problem. It's what the narrative does to them because they're women that can be the problem. Like in GoT (I'm a fan, don't get me wrong), there's a lot of violence that manipulates the sexist assumptions of the audience for shock value. Like, take Oberon's death. It was totally over-the-top and gratuitous. It would have been that way no matter who it happened to -- man, woman, bad guy, good guy, neutral guy, animal, or even a kid. That's good shock value. It's truly shocking. It's great tension, good story telling, doesn't rely on cheap tricks to get a reaction.

Contrast that with how pretty much every prostitute dies (in the show, not the book): naked, splayed out attractively, pierced with projectile weapons or strangled so that her sexy naked dead body is still available for the audience to perv at. It's pretty much fetishizing death by deliberately sexualizing it. Contrast that with how Rob Stark's wife dies: her pregnant belly slit open. It's deliberately playing on the sexualized and socialized "vulnerabilities" of women for shock value: their sexual nature, their child-bearing abilities, etc. Ask yourself, would a man be killed like that in a show? Not usually, no. And they wouldn't contrast a good man versus a bad man with choosing to sexualize the bad ones in death and make us pity the good ones. That treatment is reserved uniquely for women. It's a cheap storytelling tactic, just like the usual Rape as Drama thing (look it up on TVTropes if you want to lose hours of your life).

GoT also subverts it at times, like with the storyline with Reek/Theon. The castration scene (wobbly sausage) is pretty obviously playing on the gender anxieties of men for the shock value of emasculating someone. So yeah, not entirely comfortable with writing off the show as sexist shlock that nobody should watch like some feminists do.

Like Cersei's character is great. She's strong in a bad way, a true villain. Brienne of Tarth, Sansa, Daenerys, Arya, Margaery, and Catelyn Stark are characters I also like, and like how they're written and portrayed in the show. They're not all main, physically strong, or independent, but they're well-written.

Anyways, I think we can all agree that the stereotypical Strong Female Character trope is totally overplayed and silly.