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[–]MikeBoda -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (134子コメント)

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Nearly everyone would like to live without coercion, but in the real world sometimes one coercive force must be met with another one. Anarchists are opposed to hierarchical unaccountable coercion. Anarchists historically supported massed based use of force against capitalism, the state, and the church.

[–]scared2mosh 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (74子コメント)

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Nearly everyone would like to live without coercion, but in the real world sometimes one coercive force must be met with another one.

Libertarian anarchists (Voluntarists/Anarcho-capitalists) are not against legitimate uses of force (used to protect from someone else's initiation of force)

Anarchists are opposed to hierarchical unaccountable coercion. Anarchists historically supported massed based use of force against capitalism, the state, and the church.

Libertarian anarchists are different in this regard as well.

[–]agnosticnixie 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Libertarian anarchists

Libertarian is a synonym of anarchism. You're neither.

used to protect from someone else's initiation of force

Which labor extraction mostly is.

[–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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This is correct. Sorry comrade, there's a bit of an ancap brigade going on in this thread.

[–]airodynamic1000 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (57子コメント)

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I'm an anarchist capitalist. We generally oppose all force regardless of reason.

[–]agnosticnixie 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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We generally oppose all force regardless of reason.

Generally, of course, excluding the extraction of labor and the enclosing of commons.

[–]airodynamic1000 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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If you mean compensating the worker for their labor at market price, without the use of force, then yes. And commons are a shit idea. They lead to the destruction if shared property.

[–]agnosticnixie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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market price

Market price depends on the use of force through the economic power of the employing class.

And commons are a shit idea. They lead to the destruction if shared property.

Thus proving that you haven't actually read "Tragedy of the commons" because that's not what it says at all. You're not as smart as you think you seem.

[–]airodynamic1000 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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So, when I chose to use my money to shop at CVS rather than Walmart I am using force.

[–][deleted] 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (5子コメント)

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I'm a vegan cannibal. And whenever any vegan, anywhere on reddit says something like "vegans oppose eating people" -- I jump onto /r/Vegan_Cannibalism and post a link so all 200 of my buddies (the entirety of the vegan-cannibal movement) can pile on ass naked like starved and horny fucking badgers to fuck each other numb and gnaw the offenders (everyone else), without a single coherent argument offered up... ever. And that's, basically, the entirety of what the movement does. Yep, we pretty much just link to reddit threads and vote brigade them the fuck down, to the point that forums have to put up warnings on constant targets.

Anarchism is an anti-capitalist movement. Anarchism has always been an anti-capitalist movement. Its name means "no archons" -- and, above all else, that means your boss. It appeared as a reaction against industrial capitalism with a central belief that stratified, authoritarian institutions are illegitimate. It went on to other things, but that's the core. The apex of totalitarianism is a corporation, where workers lease themselves like human appliances to bosses and paymasters who exploit their labor for profit. There is absolutely no such thing as "anarcho"-capitalism any more than there can be a thing called vegan-cannibalism.

Even the man chiefly responsible for the hilarious joke admitted:

We must therefore conclude that we are not anarchists, and that those who call us anarchists are not on firm etymological ground, and are being completely unhistorical.

- Murray Rothbard

And yet, there's a giddy cult of mostly teenage, white, suburban Randyan superheroes with an affluent mommy and daddy, on the internet (exclusively), cheer leading for labor relations based on a model of private, profit-driven fiefdoms with ironclad, top-down authority unrivaled by almost any dictatorship.

If anyone here wants to learn about anarchism, on the other hand, instead of 'Thatcherism cranked to 11,' here's a great FAQ and a ton of works, going back over 150 years -- rather than, you know, 15... coming mostly from the Charles Koch Foundation (renamed CATO institute) and another cult worshiping a heterodox economist who spent his life fawning over fascism and studying spherical cows.

[–]NoGardE -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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And, as Karl Marx said,

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.

So at least you're being consistent with your belief's basis in redefining words to fit your purpose in conversation.

[–]Avonarret 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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*all agression ?

[–]airodynamic1000 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Yeah. sorry about that. Force as a reaction to force is ok. Just don't start shit.

[–]MikeBoda 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (44子コメント)

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You may call yourself that, but it makes no sense at all. Anarchism, understood as an actual political movement, not the product of reactionary think-tanks and obscure websites, has always been a socialist movement.

[–]airodynamic1000 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (12子コメント)

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I refuse to accept a government. An(without) arch(rulers).

[–]agnosticnixie 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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A capitalist boss is a ruler.

[–]airodynamic1000 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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If you can shrug his authority then no he isn't.

[–]agnosticnixie 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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But you can't shrug his authority as a class. All you can do is pick between bosses (if you're lucky) or become one yourself (if you're even luckier, as you don't only require an idea/service/invention, you also need capital and lots of it, otherwise you depend on a boss). Additionally, there's always going to be structural unemployment in capitalist systems ensuring a stronger power balance on the side of the already powerful holders of economic power.

There's a reason the only people who seriously believe ancap nonsense tend to be from small professions where the myth of the boot strap is strong and narcissism is rampant, like programming.

[–]airodynamic1000 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Or you could join a commune. It's a perfectly good system for a business to utilize, but it isn't for everyone.

[–]DogBotherer 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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Yes, but capitalists are rulers, that's why we call them the ruling class.

[–]j1800 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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That is an essential difference between these two groups. Anarchocapitalists define rulers as "government", while traditional anarchists extend the definition to include rich people, bosses, factory owners and the like.

It is why "anarchy" and "capitalism" can appear a contradiction to some but not to others, because it depends on what they define as "rulers".

[–][deleted] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

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learn the difference between government and state

there is nothing in 99% of anarchist philosophy against government -- only against government controlled by a a special stratum of elites who can impose their will on the rest of society

[–]airodynamic1000 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

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What other kind of government is there?

[–][deleted] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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[–]airodynamic1000 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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These all require a monopoly on legitimate violence.

[–][deleted] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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okay, Maggie

[–]airodynamic1000 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I mean, if that is your argument.

[–]MeanOfPhidias -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (14子コメント)

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You are appealing to an authority.

This is like asking a police officer to define police abuse of power.

The oldest word that symbolizes freedom and liberty - the absence of a centrally coercive power - is the Ama-Gi. A Sumerian symbol that literally meant "To return them to their mothers" and was meant as an insult towards slaves who had been freed from their masters and no longer had rulers.

Anarchism is about individuality, not socialism.

[–]j_boner 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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You know a goal of socialism outlined by Marx was to make sure the working class had enough free time to pursue their individual interests right?

[–]ShamWowNY 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Mmmmm, logical fallacies.

[–]MikeBoda 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

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You can't have individuality under corporate tyranny.

[–]wshanahan -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

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and who charters the corporations?

[–]MikeBoda 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

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The state of course. Capitalism and the modern state are quite mutually interdependent.

[–]wshanahan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

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Corporatism and the state are mutually interdependent. Free market capitalism has nothing to do with the state.

[–]MikeBoda 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

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Perhaps free markets can exist without a state. It isn't the sort of society I would aim for, nor one I see the possibility of developing from present conditions, but mutualism aught to at least work in theory.

Capitalism means class stratification. Class inequality cannot exist without a monopoly on force being used to keep one class producing surplus labor value for the other class. With no state, workers would simply retain the full value of what they produce and the capitalist would loose their unearned income.

[–]RonaldMcPaul -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (6子コメント)

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With no state, workers would simply retain the full value of what they produce and the capitalist would loose their unearned income.

Could I borrow your crystal ball? I'm on my way to pick up a lottery ticket.

[–]austrologi -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (15子コメント)

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So you respond with your own obscure website?

Capitalism at its root is voluntary exchanges. In capitalism, everything is voluntary, and thats the major difference. How can you have anarchy under socialism... by definition, to interfere with free trade you must have an authoritarian power to enforce it.

In my opinion, left anarchist is a contradictory concept.

[–]MikeBoda 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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I respond by referencing history and movements that involved millions of workers. Reactionaries that call themselves "libertarians" consist of a few Internet trolls and corporate think-tank employees. You have never had any movement. Go away.

I care about free people not free trade.

[–]austrologi -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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free trade is free people.....

It's not internet trolls, have you ever heard of Rothbard, Hayek, Mises? No you are only interested in Karl Marx.... So you can go fuck yourself.

[–]agnosticnixie 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Mises supported Dolfuss, Hayek supported Pinochet.

Rothbard tried to make it appear like Tucker was a capitalist, when he was firmly anti-capitalist and called his brand of individualist anarchism socialist.

[–]MikeBoda 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I'm not a Marxist. The Austrians would have been forgotten if their politics weren't useful to the upper class. Like I said, neo-liberals have right-wing think-tanks funded by the corporate elite. What else to you think the Ludwig Von Misses Institute, Cato, etc are?

BTW Rothbard admitted that the term libertarian was stolen, and came to see anarchism as an inappropriate term for neo-liberal policies.

And Hayek was a Pinochet supporting fascist.

[–]DogBotherer 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (4子コメント)

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There's nothing voluntary about capitalism, it's a game we're forced to play because we live in a capitalist world. All the cards are stacked in favour of the capitalists who have had hundreds of years (and many more hundreds of years under feudalism before that) to accumulate capital and rig the game in their favour. What's contradictory is free market capitalism - it has never and could never happen - capitalism is about markets rigged on behalf of capitalists by a bought and paid for State.