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Hestia going mainstream? (dailymail.co.uk)

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[–]daddy1fatsack 114 ポイント115 ポイント  (87子コメント)

If anything, this is an example of why anime will never be mainstream

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (86子コメント)

Which is a good thing.

[–]nergahttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/nerga 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (85子コメント)

Why? You don't want more people to enjoy the same hobby as you?

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (82子コメント)

Look at comics and gaming. The moment they got close to being mainstream, feminists and all sorts of people attempted to push their agenda towards those mediums, violently(literally) demanding censor of things that don't fit into their agenda. This doesn't happen with anime because it's mostly centered around Japan, and no one gives a shit about feminism in Japan.

[–]gear9242http://myanimelist.net/animelist/theironpony 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (30子コメント)

feminists

Pseudo-feminists, you mean. Actual feminism would be pretty okay with a lot of the stuff tumblr/SJW Pseudo-fems try to denounce.

[–]fuzzyspringhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/fuzzyspring 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (27子コメント)

"No true scotsman."

[–]gear9242http://myanimelist.net/animelist/theironpony 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (26子コメント)

Not necessarily. Pretty much any scholar within the women studies/feminism circle have more or less the same views, and are actually rational. The shit-throwing hierarchy begins with armchair "feminism".

[–]Mablak 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (23子コメント)

That kind of crowd is still a huge number of people flying under the banner of feminism; doesn't make sense to simply say they're not feminists. Disliking their actions doesn't mean they're not part of the group.

I wish it were that easy, then I could say the progressive movement or the atheist movement is composed only of upstanding, rational people.

[–]gear9242http://myanimelist.net/animelist/theironpony 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (19子コメント)

The thing about the No True Scotsman fallacy is that it's an attempt to defend or assert an unreasoned claim by rhetoric instead of an objective rule or example. True, honest-to-goodness feminism is about achieving societal/legal/economic equality across genders while still understanding and respecting the limitations of each. No one gender is better than the other, nor is it worse, and interpretations of issues for each should accept and respect rational interpretations from others. Male, female, and the spectrum in between shouldn't really be tied to a gender role, but still be respected if they wish to be in one.

edit: Find me a feminist blog on Tumblr that has those views, and you'll find 15 others that don't. "Feminism" today took the anti-porn stance from 3rd wave feminism and dialed it up to 11. Hell, ask any professor in women's studies or feminist studies, and they'll all tell you that they hate folks like that, because it is essentially destroying what feminists have been working towards for the past century.

[–]Mablak 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

True, honest-to-goodness feminism is about achieving societal/legal/economic equality across genders while still understanding and respecting the limitations of each.

See my response to BTrumbl; many 'pseudo-feminists' do believe this, making them feminists. But what they consider equality, and their methods for achieving it, happen to be wrong.

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Yeah, I'd like you to find me 15 "good" feminist blogs for each misandrist SJWs. While you do that, I will leave these links to you, so you can savor the equality of your movement that attacks male rape victims and think it's okay to molest small boys as long as those who do the molestation of woman:

http://c-i-t-a-t-i-o-n-n-e-e-d-e-d.tumblr.com/post/116320096493/xkayla-mariex-renegadebusiness

It's No true Scotsman when majority of your movement endorses male rape and blame all their failures on rape culture and male patriachy and bullshit excuses like wage gap which is just there to comfort yourself when you are unable to find any kind of well paying job when you majored in useless and absolutely unneccessary fields like woman's studies.

[–]ulkord -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

True, honest-to-goodness feminism is about achieving societal/legal/economic equality across genders while still understanding and respecting the limitations of each

No that's what we would call egalitarian.

No one gender is better than the other

This is a really unspecific statement that really doesn't mean anything since you didn't define "better" in this context, and this leads to the question "Better at what?".

Find me a feminist blog on Tumblr that has those views.

Just search for anything like "SJW" "rape culture" "men must die" "shitlord" etc

[–]BTrumbl 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The thing is, feminism itself has a definition, and it's not defined by its members so much as a philosophy (i.e. working for equal rights for both men and women). If those SJWs call themselves feminists, but don't actively encourage a feminist viewpoint, it is safe to say that they aren't actually feminists.

My attempt at an analogy: If you have a bunch of people who claim they're communist but in fact promote a capitalist system, would you still call them communist? I wouldn't.

The SJWs who say they're feminist, yet promote double standards over men, or work for their own personal gain without regards to their impact on the feminist movement, cannot be considered feminists, in my opinion. They're just assholes.

[–]gear9242http://myanimelist.net/animelist/theironpony 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A more apt phrase would be, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" or more accurately "A shitpile by any other name would smell as much like ass" .

[–]Mablak 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My attempt at an analogy: If you have a bunch of people who claim they're communist but in fact promote a capitalist system, would you still call them communist? I wouldn't.

The US has experienced these kinds of changes for many ideologies; liberal, libertarian, anarchist... in some cases the words have now taken on the exact opposite meaning they once had. It depends; if a really huge percentage of communists started promoting capitalism, it would make sense to start considering a definition swap.

The thing is, feminism itself has a definition, and it's not defined by its members so much as a philosophy

Even if we're just talking about a feminist being someone who holds the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities, many of the 'pseudo-feminists' fall into this camp. It's just that their approach to achieve this happens to be completely wrong.

I'm a utilitarian, but I can't say deluded utilitarians who have a messed up understanding of 'the greater good' (e.g. advocating eugenics) aren't really utilitarians. They really do have the same moral belief I do, they're just practicing it completely wrong.

[–]ulkord 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

scholar

women studies

;^)

[–]gear9242http://myanimelist.net/animelist/theironpony 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

8/10 joke was okay

[–]SgtMichaelshttp://myanimelist.net/profile/SgtMichaels 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This comment needs to be upvoted more.

"Real" feminists are fairly moderate in their beliefs, not people who aggressively push for unreal standards of "equality". So, essentially, they're just normal nice people who don't always have a stick up their butt, but still believe in social justice.

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah yes, the good old No True Scotsman Fallacy. It stops being Psuedo-Feminists when majority of feminists have man and woman that don't agree with them doxxed and attacked, especially their leaders does this.

[–]BP_Ray 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (28子コメント)

True, if theres one thing I enjoy about anime, its not having gender drama every 5 minutes.

[–]TheFlagonWagon 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is actually one of the larger contributing factors that caused me to more or less jump ship from "gaming culture" at large. The fems and the antifems all conduct themselves really poorly, and it just makes the whole community nothing but a toxic shit-flinging contest. It's pretty popular to shit on the anime culture, but we do a way better job with this than both gaming and American comics, I think. Whenever I see an actual gender issue-related discussion come up on here it's usually something reasonably sensible like, "Is Shirou's behavior in Fate/Stay Night blatantly sexist or does it signify something deeper about the neuroses of his character?" It's not a billion different versions of the same argument about boobplate armor.

[–]lord_addictus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

While I agree with what you say, I think you might be overstating the maturity of the anime fanbase somewhat. It's not that we are necessarily better at handling gender issues than the gaming community (although personally speaking I think we are), it's that gender issue discussion is largely non-existent in the anime community. /r/anime is the only place I ever see it brought up. /a/ suppresses it 100% as do many other sites.

[–]TheFlagonWagon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The only anime forums I browse are /a/ and /r/anime, so I'm not sure about how ANN/Tumblr/other sites deal with it. I'll take your word for it though.

/a/ basically does the thing that 4chan usually does with things like this: aggressively not caring. I'd still say /a/ is better than /v/ in that regard though because at least when /a/ is casually dismissive of the topic, they don't sound like a bunch of twelve year olds that just learned they could say "fuck" on the Internet without getting in trouble.

[–]lord_addictus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/a/'s greatest asset is that they don't want to discuss anything except anime. Even if it's tangentially related, the mods will often step in with their new-found zeal for protecting the integrity of the board (notice how /a/ was one of the few boards unaffected by all that 4chan upheaval last summer?). There's something to be said for - as you so aptly put it - aggressively not caring.

[–]lord_addictus -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (23子コメント)

Exactly. One of the main reasons we as a fanbase are left alone by SJWs is because we're not mainstream. If that day ever comes, we're fucked.

What also helps of course is that Japan doesn't have a big SJW scene, nor would any heed be likely paid to them even if there was. So unlike the western gaming industry, the anime we consume isn't going to be messed with any time soon.

[–]NeuronExploder 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (22子コメント)

But, at the same time, it would be interesting to see anime that explored ideas outside of the stuff it's exploring at the moment. Maybe a homosexual relationship that wasn't played for laughs or moe. I don't know, but Anime could use being shaken up.

[–]BP_Ray 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Theres been homosexual relationships in anime before, Shinsekai Yori is a pretty good example of that.

[–]PassionPitTimemyanimelist.net/animelist/SillieHonka 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They've only existed for masturbatory purposes though and fall into horrible cliches. I honest to god ship 8man and totsuka hard even though i don't particularly like totsuka's character. I wish it would be better and that shows could handle male and female homosexual relationships better. Right now they are extremely indulgent in what the opposite gender wants from yaoi/yuri.

[–]NeuronExploder -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Yeah, definitely, but would it be horrible if there was more? Or even a male homosexual relationship?

[–]Ralath0n 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Shinsekai Yori was a male homosexual relation.

Anyway, if the writers can get a good story out of it; sure, why not. But I'd rather not have writers forcefully shoehorn in a relation that does not add to the plot. If it becomes the norm to have such a relationship in your story just to be politically correct it becomes difficult to take it serious. It would be like the "token black guy".

[–]lord_addictus 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Or even a male homosexual relationship?

Wouldn't sell well. That's the simple fact of the matter.

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, Imagine some random american channels discovering shows like Kodomo no Jikan and labeling anime as pedo-shit. That would totally not happen.

[–]crazy_o 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anime may not do it, because it costs a lot and the return with the popular stuff is already pretty minimal. But there is lots of manga that tackle different subjects seriously.

[–]GenesisEra 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Maybe a homosexual relationship that wasn't played for laughs or moe.

Cross Ange?

[–]lord_addictus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I'm not disagreeing with you, but people said the same thing about the gaming industry a few years ago, and that gave us Anita Saakesian and Gamergate amongst other things.

[–]NeuronExploder -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I agree with your point, but what impacts have "SJW's" actually had on the gaming industry besides Journalism and casting a negative light on gamers. You could argue games have had to censor themselves, sure, but besides AAA devs nobody really gives a shit. In fact we have actually been given games that are really good, objectively; Gone Home and The Last of Us: Left Behind. I mean at the end of the day, should we really be complaining when all the "SJW" movement has done is not give us annoying as fuck side characters?

[–]lord_addictus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

In fact we have actually been given games that are really good, objectively; Gone Home

.....are you serious?

[–]mysticmusti 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So? There's nothing wrong with people bitching, they are entitled to do that and everyone is entitled to ignore them if you don't agree. The real problem is that companies always back down when someone bitches hard about something instead of defending their choice and that's the bad part.

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You won't say that when Feminists start doxxing fan artists and attacking them outside their places and when you blame them you are blamed for sexism.

[–]samstone13http://myanimelist.net/animelist/samstone 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'd rather we talk it out to find a compromise, a middle ground than let a medium remain a niche for the rest of its life. Shits like gamergate had the aftermath of people knowing better to hold a actual argument on such a industry that had not been taken seriously by the mass.

Refusing to talk or even be aware of a problem/ an issue would just hurt us more in the long term.

[–]lord_addictus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Refusing to talk or even be aware of a problem/ an issue would just hurt us more in the long term.

As I mentioned in another comment though, the anime community at large has no interest in having those discussions.

[–]baconmastah 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

And what long-lasting damage has this done? The expansion of gaming into the mainstream means it's become more acceptable as a hobby.

Feminists? Pfffft.

[–]lord_addictus -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

And what long-lasting damage has this done? The expansion of gaming into the mainstream means it's become more acceptable as a hobby.

Which made it a target for feminists. They never bothered with it when it was niche.

[–]baconmastah 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But what damage? Again, mainstream gaming means there is a much larger base of people everywhere we can share our hobbies with. I'm no hipster and I'm sure you're not either.

[–]vanishingraccoon -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh god I don't want feminists to censor official subs and dubs.

[–]pterynxli -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

violently(literally) demanding censor of thing that don't fit into their agenda.

Feminist criticism =/= "violent censorship". If anything, the ones trying to cause violent censorship in gaming are those who went about doxxing and sending death threats against Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn et al.

no one gives a shit about feminism in Japan.

False. Rumiko Takahashi, Naoko Takeuchi and several other female mangaka (since women are nearly half of all manga writers) would certainly say otherwise. And in recent years, some studios such as Madhouse and Kyoani have had women in their workforce gradually take on larger roles in the anime production process. From Rose of Versailles all the way to the directorial works of Kunihiko Ikuhara and Sayo Yamamoto, feminism and gender issues have long had their place in the anime and manga mediums.

I'm sure many series (i.e. SAO) would be much more well-received if more care was given to making the female characters into full-fledged characters with their own agency.

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also forgot to mention something, It doesn't matter if writers make believable female characters with strong skills and personalities. People were complaining about Casca in Berserk losing to a sexist knight when she had a fever and were on her period. Also, people complain about Makoto Kusanagi, arguably one of the physical strongest character in any anime, because she wears a revealing outfit to be more flexible. But oh, she wears a revealing outfit to have an easier time fighting, what a sin.

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Do you know what happens when they develop their female characters? They get called racists because they apparently sexualize their characters. Also there is a difference between feminism and employing women in your workforce. Also yeah, It was those that sent death threats to Sakeesian and Zoe Quinn that censored the cover of a Batman comic. It was also those people that threatened male rape victims and demanded removal of male gender.

[–]pterynxli -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Also there is a difference between feminism and employing women in you workforce.

I... what?

Workplace inequality has always been a central issue that feminism has been campaigning against. Biases in hiring and wage gaps, as well as harassment, continue to exist in several workplaces.

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

wage gaps

I stopped taking you seriously after this. Wage gap is just a bullshit made up so SJWs can feel better about not being able to work in a job after majoring in gender studies. If wage gap actually existed, there would be ALOT more woman in the workforce, since they'd have to pay them less. So why isn't there a woman majority in the workforce? Simple, either wage gap doesn't exist, or woman are really paid less because they are less efficient.

Women have been added to the workforce in countries like Turkey without any form of feminism existing before hand. Woman can be added to the workforce without any movements like feminism.

[–]pterynxli 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

If wage gap actually existed, there would beca LOT more woman in the workforce

Wrong. Many employers who gve less preferential treatment/hiring to female employees do so because women are often seen as more risky to hire - particularly if they're pregnant and/or mothers. Not to mention all the other sexist biases and stereotypes against female workers, including your very own BS about them being less efficient.

[–]lord_addictus -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

SJW, you're not welcome in the anime community. Please strongly consider leaving.

[–]Webemperorhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/Webemperor -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Simple, either wage gap doesn't exist, or woman are really paid less because they are less efficient.

Don't worry, It's normal for SJWs like you to bend the truth to suit your version. Next time, read someone's arguement and make actual researches before claiming shit.

[–]lord_addictus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sure many series (i.e. SAO) would be much more well-received if more care was given to making the female characters into full-fledged characters with their own agency.

But the majority of the largely male anime fanbase doesn't really care about that kinda stuff (also, it would take a lot more than having better female characters for SAO to be considered good).

Feminist criticism =/= "violent censorship".

As seen in the gaming community though, there are those who wish to censor what they don't like by applying social pressure.

False. Rumiko Takahashi, Naoko Takeuchi and several other female mangaka (since women are nearly half of all manga writers) would certainly say otherwise. And in recent years, some studios such as Madhouse and Kyoani have had women in their workforce gradually take on larger roles in the anime production process. From Rose of Versailles all the way to the directorial works of Kunihiko Ikuhara and Sayo Yamamoto, feminism and gender issues have long had their place in the anime and manga mediums.

You can say what you want, but the strength of feminism in Japan pales in comparison to its strength in the West. And of all the Japanese industries, the anime industry is probably the least likely to accommodate the feminist mantra any time soon.

[–]xRichardhttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/xRichard -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow wow wow..... I agree that gaming going mainstream had bad consequences. But the medium got mainstream well before 3rd (4th?) wave feminists got involved.

Also, I don't expect these feminists to influence the medium as bad as becoming mainstream did. Not even close. These feminists ideas will get ignored, but the AAA development/business model will stay for a long time until a new gaming crash takes place.

[–]informat2 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I feel like Gigguk did a good job covering it.

[–]nergahttp://myanimelist.net/animelist/nerga 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That sort of came down to feeling special and unique. He makes a not necessarily true conclusion that if anime were more popular it would make the anime people like now go away, changing the medium, while using the argument of video games, despite showing a counter example to his own claim.