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[–]scrottie 1092 ポイント1093 ポイント x3 (134子コメント)

Saying "programmers can't" ignores inherit selection bias in the people coming to your job interview.

To be able to draw conclusions about the programming populace in general, you'd have to find a way to randomly sample programmers regardless of whether they were unemployed, where they worked, whether they worked for themselves, and so on.

The Lemon Market law applies here. Here's a write-up for the lemon market as it applies to programming languages: http://outspeaking.com/words-of-technology/the-lemon-market-of-programming-language-adoption.html

Floods of people selling low quality goods causes the median value to plummet (people adapt jobs, interviews, and pay scales to lower qualified applicants) which undervalues qualified applicants.

Perl is a good example. A lot of jobs were eliminated over the past several years as PHP, Python, Ruby, and then other things, became preferred technologies. A long list of companies are now reporting difficulties hiring qualified Perl programmers.

That may be counter intuitive. If lots of qualified, experienced, senior level Perl programmers were laid off, you'd think that they would be easy to find, but it's more complex than that:

Smart programmers don't compete over rare job openings in their same specialty, especially if those rare openings would be a demotion. They retool. I can name several people who spoke at conferences, wrote books, and were well known in the community who now work in another technology.

Companies whine too, instead of doing the needful. I talk to companies all of the time who claim to be desperate for qualified help, but they still set up endless barriers for themselves: hiring right now and then not hiring anyone no matter how good they are until "a position opens"; paying a fraction of what the same applicant would make using another of their skills; being closed to telecommuters no matter how much butt they kick; extremely narrow view of what a programmer can accomplish; unwillingness to touch mid level programmers who show a lot of promise and insisting on only hiring senior talent. I feel like I hear more complaining from companies than programmers. If you're not buying people away from Google (and Google swallowed up a lot of top Perl talent, to make them do network engineer and sysadmin stuff), then find a way to compromise and create incentives that way.

Really good programmers also know that very few companies value talent, and I mean that in a specific way. Perhaps the small companies really want good programmers, but without an understanding of the nature of programming ("programming is dreaming" or something similar), they're going to routinely hire the wrong people, and then mismanage them. They'll value a facade of professionalism over life long technical passion. This applies to small companies and large companies. State Farm is opening up mega offices here in Tempe and hiring like nuts, but it takes hours to input all of your stuff into their buggy as hell job portal, and then off-shore non-technical help from Indian pre-evaluates the score assigned to your application by a computer program. This is almost perfectly designed to keep good talent out. Small companies, stereotypically, are running ASP.NET or PHP with management and programmers who have a very, shall we say, minimal take on what a programmer's skill set should be. This makes applying for jobs an enormous waste of time, if you're qualified.

Project management know how is critical too. The experience necessary to make the right decisions not to sabotage the programming staff is rare. Even if a random company actually did know how to identify good talent, that good talent may not want to work there, and vetting companies is extremely time consuming.

This creates a lot of incentive to just go work for a large company that knows how to hire, and knows how to manage, if you are a good programmer and willing to relocate. This means Netflix, Amazon, The GOOG, and a handful of others. Formerly, this was Microsoft, then IBM, then Rand, Cray, Digital, Xerox, Bell Labs, and so on. No tech company comes crashing into market prominence without (perhaps accidentally) getting really good programmers, turning them loose, and providing resources for them. The oral history of SNOBOL (nothing like COBOL despite the pun) illustrates the culture at Bell Labs that made so much innovation possible: http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0196_gris720521.pdf

Because of the difficulty of finding a working environment that's empowering and supports rather than sabotages productivity, few good programmers will leave a workable gig. They tend to stay put. Rather than accepting applications, you have to hunt them out, and then make a sale. There was a company that matched up productive open source programmers (measured in terms of github contributions) with local opportunities, but guess what, that's not how companies wanted to hire. Perhaps it's ego, but they wanted brilliant applicants to notice the opening on their web site and then call a phone number. If I were hiring, I'd be on github committers like ugly on an ape.

Qualified programmers also have the option of going in to management, working with consulting firms as independents doing short term contracts for large amounts of money (with nice breaks between), or starting their own consulting business.

This isn't snottiness on the part of good programmers; often they hide away from the politics, fashions, and industry BS (take Why the Lucky Stiff as an example; indications are that he worked for a small town Web shop doing VBA while being the best known Ruby celebrity in his spare time). They hide from money too if it means they can be productive and stable and stress free.

Yes, programmers should constantly be improving their skills, but that won't actually help you get programmers who do.

tl;dr: the first two paragraphs, and the last.

[–]YoohooCthulhu 78 ポイント79 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'd add that everything you're saying is true in most technical fields these days at the entry-mid level. It's absolutely true in biotech.

Now that there's a surplus of phd-level research scientists, the versatile phds are leaving research in droves. Companies are simultaneously getting pickier hiring applicants (because there are so many!) And having more trouble finding qualified ones.

Basically, whenever a valuable technical skill floods the market, the most qualified applicants tend to jump ship to something with less competition

But another big problem is the prevalence of "horizontal hiring". Most qualified, competent, ambitious people want to move up when changing jobs. On the other hand, companies in a tight job market try to hire people to jobs they're already doing. The problem with this is that it selects for people who have a reason for not moving up. And this is how we get to a death spiral.

[–]StManTiS 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

it selects for people who have a reason for not moving up

This is so fucking annoying for anyone with ambition.

[–]scrottie 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well put! Thank you for this.

[–]caseypatrickdriscoll 112 ポイント113 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just an extraordinary piece of work here. Hope others read this.

For how many memes and lazy jokes get repeated on this site, this is why I keep coming back. I like knew all of this, but you put it in perspective. Thanks!

[–]scrottie 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (0子コメント)

blush Thanks. Some times I need just the right catalyst to get a good rant out, and the original article linked here gave me some needed context to do it.

[–]TWeaKoR 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hah, and now you just put into words the feeling I've had about reddit that's kept me coming back, too.

[–]greenknight 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (17子コメント)

As a intermediate perl developer I can say that I went elsewhere (sustainable agriculture actually) instead of hunting for jobs that weren't there.

I still use perl or python often, just to solve my own computational problems.

[–]joshu 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (14子コメント)

You are coding for sustainable ag? Can you talk more about that?

(Long time Perl developer - switched to python. Hooray!)

[–]greenknight 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Sure can!

I am developing my own plant health sensing drone! Even though I'm slowly writing the ground-side processing code with python, my pseudo-code looks far more like pre-OO perl because that's where I learned the fundamentals.

Also used perl many, many, many times to process data logger output, astronomical data, harmonizing GIS attributes, etc during my ag undergrad.

[–]jrtone 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you need contacts in sustainable ag, let me know and I can put you in touch with people.

[–]greenknight 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Always looking for new connections. Kind of spinning in place, meeting new people can shake that up.

[–]joshu 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Are you writing this up anywhere? This sounds like a lot of fun.

[–]rohanivey 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Seriously! I'm curious what variables count as a plant's health and how those can be measured in nthe analogous or digital fashion.

[–]greenknight 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Basically the drone+camera can detect and photograph plant respiration. Plant respiration can be a stand in for plant stress and inversely plant health.

It's a open source single camera DIY mod and you could do it too!
Basically, using the RGB channels in a consumer digital camera to capture near infrared light data in the red channel. The python/perl bits are just glue for the process of creating something meaningful to humans from the image; in this case an NDVI image that has potential for all kinds of science, research, and innovation.

[–]irregardless 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is like the third time and third place in the past week I've heard about someone using drone+camera to do large-scale remote sensing for agriculture. The opportunity to do precise watering and fertilization over areas of just a few square meters must be tremendous.

[–]scrottie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Rad!

[–]AMAducer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm curious as well. This is an industry that seems pretty paramount to good quality life in the near future. I'd love to learn about it!

[–]joshu 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Agreed. I am actually an investor in two drone companies partially because of the possibilities in this space.

[–]AMAducer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just wish I had money to invest! All I've got right now is time..

[–]salmonmoose 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I work next to a great Perl Dev, how can I convince him python is the future? (I come from php so needed little convincing)

[–]reini_urban 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I work next to a great Perl Dev, how can I convince him python is the future?

python is certainly not the future, so it will be hard to convince him.

[–]joshu 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

originally I needed to do some mathematical stuff, and numpy/scipy/etc are just radically better. generally, it feels like it's easier to get stuff done in python. not sure of how to convince anyone of that.

[–]almostinvisible 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's incredible! As a fellow programmer, I have been daydreaming for the past few weeks about switching my career to sustainable/organic agriculture as well. How has that been holding up for you? Is it something hard to get into? Would you recommend it?

[–]greenknight 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well. If I hadn't had a financial/health/personal crisis trying to finish my degree and support a family (with an immigrant wife who cannot legally work yet) I'm sure I would be employed in my field, where ever in the world I want to work.

I had my pick of internship, research assistant positions. I had opportunities to work with ag-giants (Dow, monsanto, etc) as well organic producer organizations.

I've been putting out economic fires for the last year working as nursery worker. I'm moving to a more agricultural area no so hopefully my ag-drone gets me some traction in the upcoming year.

tl;dr: A+ would recommend

[–]JerkJenkins 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Great work. This reminds me of the hiring issue around Millennials.

Companies for several years were slamming Milliennials because they seemed lazy, unmotivated, low-skilled, etc. But very few companies did anything to work around those issues -- they just continued slamming Millennials and writing op-eds about how shitty the Millennial generation is.

Lo and behold, the companies that invested time and energy into investigating and fixing these issues with Millennials are enjoying good successes. These organizations re-tooled themselves to provide extensive training and support services, pathways to advancement, relocation services, work-life balance measures, etc -- which are all popular with Millennials.

TL;DR It's useless to complain about a problem and do nothing to fix it.

[–]mindhawk 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (1子コメント)

but it takes hours to input all of your stuff into their buggy as hell job portal, and then off-shore non-technical help from Indian pre-evaluates the score assigned to your application by a computer program. This is almost perfectly designed to keep good talent out.

Thank you for saying this. Hospitals, universities, any large corporation, I have written off the chance of working at these places for over a decade because I refuse to take that long to submit an application and every time I even tried it was erased when I hit the backspace key a single time, or everything was erased because my phone number was entered with dashes.

That's just how an organization tells me that even if I got hired and got one of those big salaries, they would make my life hell.

But since all of the biggest operations work like that, and so many people work for them, it appears to me that the upper tiers of american society are actually hell except for the investment class, who just lives on a yacht managing a portfolio and calls themselves the most valuable person in the company.

[–]scrottie 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because they weed out so many good people, big technically unsavvy companies like State Farm have low work expectations when you're in, and I kind of envy that. If it's anything like working at Motorola though, you have to just pretend that you're an actor on a TV show all day and go with all of the silliness and keep your sense of humor and not actually try to get anything done or you'll become outraged and blow.

Can confirm that lots of people working these office jobs are miserable. Mostly desperate morons hold everything up.

So, everyone competes to work at Amazon or Google, where the grass is a bit greener.

Out of some sense of self sabotage, I told the big tech firms everyone wants to work for that I'm not really interested. So that leaves things like State Farm, random consulting gigs, and small tech outfits. I think if I had worked at Microsoft when that was the place to be, I'd just hate myself later. Maybe the people at Google all feel really important (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/320ujx/why_cant_programmers_program_is_print_100_to_1/cq86be3), but I'd feel like a useless and slightly evil cog.

[–]NO_TOUCHING__lol 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (24子コメント)

doing the needful

sideshowbobstepsonrake.mp3

[–]autovonbismarck 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (21子コメント)

This is a common... hmm... malapropism? No... not sure what the word is. But basically if you hear somebody say this, they either are Indian, or they work with them enough to have internalized this saying.

Initially ironically probably, but then you start to think... "yeah, Do The Needful" that sentence is super appropriate in this situation!

[–]tilde_tilde_tilde 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Malapropism is using the wrong word in place of a similar, correct word.

"Doing the needful" is an Indian English phrase that means exactly what is sounds like, doing what is needed.

[–]Pipstydoo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

From Merriam-Webster:

malapropism

the usually unintentionally humorous misuse or distortion of a word or phrase; especially : the use of a word sounding somewhat like the one intended but ludicrously wrong in the context

Example - everything Sofia Vergara says on Modern Family.

[–]Answermancer 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah but it's not a malapropism, it is an actual English-language phrase that used to be common in both British and American English, and just happens to be archaic in those while remaining common in India.

Sure it sounds silly to us but it's really no different than (from an American perspective) inserting pointless "u"s in words like color and favorite.

[–]Pipstydoo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not asserting "doing the needful" is a malapropism.

I'm correcting tilde's definition of malapropism.

[–]Asscuseme 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I would like to "prepone" this comment thread to a time before I visited this post, so I don't have to know about this phrase too. :-)

[–]sensitivePornGuy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you move it further back in time, it will still be here when you read the thread. You want to move it further forward. "Postpone" it, if you will.

[–]tilde_tilde_tilde -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/linguistics is leaking!!!

[–]kindall -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Actually, "doing the needful" doesn't mean exactly what it sounds like. You aren't doing what's needed, you're doing what needs. What it needs is anyone's guess. but it sounds scary. What if it needs fresh human blood, or souls?

[–]tilde_tilde_tilde 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

"To do the needful" is a verb phrase derived from a translation of the Hindi/Urdu term "zaroor karna." "Zaroor" by itself is "need." But "zaroor karna" would literally translate to "Do what is needed."

I think your understanding of Hindi may be flawed.

[–]kindall 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To say that my understanding of Hindi might be flawed would imply that I have some knowledge of Hindi, which I do not.

[–]rxvf 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Zaroor karna" literally translates to "must do". E.g "aap yeh zaroor karna" = "you must do this" or perhaps "it's necessary that you do this". "Need" directly translates to "zaroorat" not "zaroor". A more accurate translation of "do the needful" would be "jo zaroori he wo karna".

[–]perseus0807 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Actually, the expression is an antiquated British/American English term, it mentions that on the wiki. "Zarur karna" translates to "you should definitely do this"; "zaruri karna" would mean "do the needful", but is not an expression that anybody uses in spoken Hindi.

[–]wingchild 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I heard it all the time from non-Indian personnel inside Microsoft - though to be fair, MSFT has an extensive Indian roster, and the phrasing definitely filtered over from that side of the house.

[–]superspeck 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

One of Oracle's major subcontractors has all of their change requests from Oracle in JIRA. Like all other JIRA products, there's a project prefix. They use "DTN" as that prefix. You can guess what that stands for.

[–]wingchild 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That story is worth a smile and an upvote. =)

[–]marnues 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm Ina big company software environment on the west coast. Doing the Needful happens daily, sometimes more often. It's not even humorous anymore.

[–]kurin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I work with a French guy (as in, French national) who says it all the time.

[–]splashback 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is a common... hmm... malapropism?

Heh, this usage of the word malapropism is technically a malapropism!!

EDIT: better words

[–]autovonbismarck 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Woah, meta.

[–]Guysmiley777 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Whenever I hear that I can't stop myself from singing "Do The Bartman" in my head.

[–]aphex732 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Everybody back and forth, and side to side.

[–]nostalgichero 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Omg I love your tl;dr

[–]Taurath 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can I also just add that the interview environment in many cases could not be more different than an actual work environment. If someone was looking over my shoulder for half my work I would go very slow.

The biggest thing for me interviews though is being tested on things I don't claim to be able to do, or don't have a strong background in. I'm a web developer (much more focused on composition of individual elements than micro-optimizations as a graphics programmer would be), and have had interviews where they wanted to know my C knowledge (for a web dev job).

[–]scrottie 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

One of the best places I worked did exactly that: asked me to rate my skills, and then kept the technical interview to the skills and level of skill I claimed.

[–]Taurath 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Absolutely. I know what I know, I know of some things I don't know, and won't claim to know things I've never heard of.

[–]Neavea 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Rarely do I comment on things so let me just say this is brilliant. The beautiful irony in it all is the sample mindset we have up for display in this thread that screams the subtleties that you described. Thank you for sharing the words!

[–]scrottie 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

blush Thank you.

[–]Manitcor 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Extremely accurate. I spent the first 15 years of my career as an indie fighting fires and staying away from the political crap (primarily for Fortune 500/1000 corps). Settled down in one area and decided to give a go at being on staff at a company/dept to help them move into the next level.

So far, after 3 years I can say I am about ready to give up on this experiment and go back to being a lone wolf again. I am not aware of many companies actually interested in making software well (meaning not burning out your employees while cracking out work, among other things) rather than throwing good money after bad in an endless chase for the next feature sales pushed along.

At least as a lone wolf when I have to work 35 extra hours in a 2 day period due to management's inability to plan ahead I can bill them time and a half for every damn hour they have wasted of my weekend.

[–]weirdstuffhelp 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (21子コメント)

This kills me due to two thoughts that came to mind:

1) My wife is a top-notch engineer. Her ability to produce constantly and severely hamstrung by inept project managers. In short, a lot of what you said about hampering high quality talent applies to lots of fields, engineering being one of them.

2) I'm a self-taught programmer but companies won't touch me because I don't have a degree. For the year where I was at a university and studying I was a top student. Most students were failed upwards and couldn't write a valid statement, let alone an entire class - but they've graduated and are employed by now and companies will entertain them as candidates just for having the degree. It kills me. Ask for a code sample? Nope. Give me a programming test? Nope. Need that degree. I guess I'll just have to wait until we move.

Did I mention we're moving because my wife is tired of being a high level engineer who is badgered and hamstrung at every turn despite being a constant super-hero at work, and has consciously decided to become a middling level engineer who will be left the fuck alone to do some actual work?

[–]crosszilla 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Honestly, my only advice for someone in your situation is to build something badass just for the hell of it. Make an insane portfolio, something to show you know your stuff regardless of whether or not you have a degree. I've hired people without the degree but you need something I can look at to make me think you're worth giving that first interview to. You might also want to try out smaller companies who are less likely to filter you out for not having a degree.

[–]DrAstralis 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Gaming as well although the skill/knowledge level will need to be higher. A few of my friends have gotten jobs in gaming simply by having working games in their portfolio that they made in their own time. They have no formal education, they just happen to be brilliant with computers.

[–]weirdstuffhelp 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think I've come to that realization (especially after all these comments). I feel very comfortable programming and picking up new ideas - the one thing I lack is the portfolio, and I need to shift my focus to just building things out of love and fun - and that will get me a job.

[–]Asscuseme 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You would be blown away by how many people work at the google without a degree.

Like someone else said, find some github.com projects you are passionate about and start doing PRs. Even if they do not land, you can start the most valuable of all processes (the code review). Once you get some momentum and a portfolio built up and/or start your own project and then apply for jobs and give them a stack of github links.

I work with a bunch of ex-googlers and have come to appreciate the code review process as the highest bang for the buck activity in terms of learning and growing. Doing open source work can really accelerate your experience and you have something to point at when you are done. I would bank on being able to get a job with that approach.

Not sure where you live, but I dealt with the petty shit your wife deals with in the midwest. I moved to the bay area and it has completely changed. There are asshats out here for sure, but this place does know how to respect and grow talent. I have no regrets after moving out here.

[–]weirdstuffhelp 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

One of the tough things I deal with is what to focus on - because there's so much.

  • Study Calculus?
  • Code up a project to build a portfolio?
  • Produce a series of in-depth tutorials for Java's SWING library?
  • Work on mods or open source projects?

I'm a dad with a job. Once upon a time I had 16 hour days to learn. Now I'm lucky if I get two per day.

I think right now I'm in the process of shifting to a focus on concrete work - like participating in open source projects and building my own projects, because I think that's the last great barrier to getting a job.

[–]Asscuseme 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would agree. Something to point at trumps a lot of uncertainty. Best of luck!

[–]inio 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Looking at a resume I'd value the first two over the second two.

[–]weirdstuffhelp 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks!

[–]seer_of_it_all 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Aim for smaller companies where the person responsible for the decision of interviewing you is a technical person, not HR. Approach the start up scene. Avoid big companies like the plague.

[–]weirdstuffhelp 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm in the process of that, but I've neglected to build a portfolio, and I think that's the next big step for proving myself hire-able.

I'm waiting for a small company to get back to me right now, and I'm about to apply for an unpaid internship that's flexible...I can do it w/o quitting my current job, and it builds my resume!

[–]KingNothing 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hang out at your local user groups for whatever technologies you use and aim for a job at a startup. Or go to some conferences about your preferred tech. The job board at railsconf 2014 had at least 100 companies with openings. I'd add a pic but imgur doesn't want to upload files right now.

No big company will hire anyone without a degree or significant experience. Also, the other suggestions about firing up some an interesting project or two on Github are spot on. For example, if you're in web dev, write an API in ruby or python and a nice JS front-end.

Source: I'm a developer and have interviewed hundreds of applicants for developer jobs.

[–]scrottie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I avoided getting in to my own personal situation with my rant (why can't I be concise?) but in a sad sort of way, it's validating to hear that other people struggle with the same stuff.

Asking for code samples would require competent human time to evaluate. Companies not already on the wrong side of the curve are willing and able to spend it. Companies in a downward spiral can't and don't.

Even though I've worked in a string of difficult technologies (no I don't have Hadoop experience but I built OpenSSI clusters and backported security fixes to its Linux kernel; I'm pretty sure I can manage (but really, does it have to be Hadoop?)) and been lead on a string of large projects, people really don't want to talk to me because I never have exactly the right experience at exactly the right time, or if I do, it's good for one project (Angular.JS) before no one wants it any more. So, I went back to school. I did a semester at UMNC (started but didn't finish at UMN) then found http://uopeople.edu and just started there. Fuck, I need to be doing homework.

[–]weirdstuffhelp 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

UoP definitely piqued my interest a bit, but the big questions are (and these questions are really for me and I'm already working on answering them, it's just my train of thought, but I figured I would put them out there:

1) UoP is DEAC accredited...so, how will a DEAC accredited B.Sc in CompSci be received? Meaning, what will employers think of a distance degree (if they even care far enough to check)? And, can I use it to springboard to a Master's program?

2) Will DEAC accreditation get credits transferred (to University of Washington?) - I'll just have to call the school.

I really appreciate the recommendation. I looked at other online courses and distance learning at major institutions is typically crazy absurd. I'm going to look into this and talk to my wife about it. I already have a year of credits from a state university, so maybe I can finish up from home with this.

[–]autovonbismarck -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

My advice to you is to lie and say you have a degree. Why the fuck not? I've been working as an engineer for 7 years, and have never once been asked to provide proof of my degree.

That being said, I don't lie and say I have a P Eng, but B eng? Nobody has ever asked.

[–]alexispres 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What the fuck? How do you work as an engineer without a college degree?

[–]autovonbismarck 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I have a B Eng, but none of my employers have ever asked for proof.

[–]tanglisha 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They most likely contacted the school.

[–]autovonbismarck 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Definitely not.

[–]ctindel 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah the only time I had to pull transcripts was when I applied to grad school.

I still have fucking dreams where I forgot to finish one class and didn't get the degree.

[–]gizzardsmoothie -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

2) I'm a self-taught programmer but companies won't touch me because I don't have a degree.

Do these same prospective employers bother to check if applicants actually earned the degree(s) listed on their resumes?

[–]weirdstuffhelp 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not interested in lying about my qualifications.

[–]MoJoe1 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (3子コメント)

instead of doing the needful

Are you from india by chance?

[–]scrottie 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, I just like to assimilate little things.

[–]soccerplusaviation 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

borg.

[–]bibbleskit 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My first thought when reading this was, "I never hear that except from random Indian guys in chat... Is that a real phrase or is this guy Indian?"

[–]ScabusaurusRex 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, qualified programmers will look at this test and either (discounting test-anxiety issues) revel in the delight of a fun test or recoil from it. I see stuff like this and try to come up with the fewest characters to complete it. But if I didn't like the person that was interviewing me, I'd refuse to take the test; I stopped taking pointless tests in grade school. If my body of work isn't enough to impress you, I'm in the wrong place and you're wasting my time.

[–]SlobBarker 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I work in recruitment and I see you proven correct on a daily basis. If programmers were more flexible on the demands of the company, they'd fall into opportunities constantly. If companies were more flexible with the programmers' needs, they'd fall into a bottomless talent pool.

[–]selfintersection 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Could you expand on what you mean by programmers being more flexible on the demands of the company?

[–]Taurath 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Work for well below market rate, because that's what we've been paying for a while and we haven't crashed into the ocean yet!

[–]morphemass 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Brilliant! I assume you work in recruitment?

[–]scrottie 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you. Nope, I just had an interesting, and frustrating at times, career.

[–]greg_barton 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

State Farm is opening up mega offices here in Tempe and hiring like nuts, but it takes hours to input all of your stuff into their buggy as hell job portal

Hah! State Farm is building their headquarters five minutes from my house. About a year ago I took one look at their job portal and moved on. :)

[–]scrottie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you in Tempe? I don't know if this is their HQ here but they're building a giant campus. Apparently it takes a lot of people to make their operation go (maybe they're doing it wrong...).

[–]greg_barton 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]cp5184 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

DAE companies be like: We've tried nothing!

[–]joshu 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This is an excellent write up.

Something I learned the hard way: if you aren't looking for adverse selection in basically every process involving human decision making, you are going to be surprised at some point.

[–]scrottie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yes! Well put.

[–]immerc 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

[–]scrottie 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not exactly sysadmin stuff.

SREs typically start out as rock star software engineers interested in becoming rock star systems engineers, or vice versa.

puke

Alternatively, our work is like being a part of the world's most intense pit crew. We change the tires of a race car as it's going 100mph.

puke

Like most software teams at Google, we also handle emergency alerts when anything goes down for web search.

Learn CS fundamentals and get as much experience as you can.

Beyond data structures and algorithms, get a very good applied understanding of the Linux operating system.

I know Google likes to feel important and make their rock star pimp snake charmer guru race car pit crew employees feel important, but this is exactly sysadmin'ing.

Let's say you were a sysadmin in 1990, before Google was founded. You would be burning PROMs to upgrade hardware, netbooting extremely cranky and buggy pre-OpenFirmware Unix machines (OpenFirmware is cranky enough), building kernels to netboot, configuring machines for NFS mounted root, setting up Athena clustering (who the heck do you think was going to do that?) which involves porting software from one cranky proprietary Unix to another (Athena Project gave us workgroupy stuff like instant messaging, hiding, cloud style guest computing access long before it was fashionable), backporting security fixes to software, optimizing software for scalability, monitoring, security auditing ("cleaning house"), and writing device drivers (researchers want to collect data? call the system admins to write a device driver for your new VME bus toy). Hell, sysadmins occasionally were participants in porting Unix (BSD) to new platforms. And take oscilloscopes to noisy buses.

Or maybe you think 25mhz MIPS machines with 4 megs of RAM were perfectly reliable, performant enough that no one had to worry about software and network architecture, and everyone could easily understand how to do all tasks with them.

Hadoop?

HA, I say.

This is what we did: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1188576

We worked with Maths PhDs on hyper-dimensional models to optimize interconnects for single system image computers, before and leading up to NUMA. Hadoop is a rotten abstraction compared to enormous computers with terabytes of RAM and thousands of processors that knows how to move threads around to maximize disk, RAM, and interconnect resources, and compilers (FORTRAN, dog) that know how to extract implicit parallelism from your code so it can be distributed across thousands of processors, without you having to do a damn thing. Oh, but you know Hadoop! We've got a badass over here.

Go ahead and brag about that you're more than a sysadmin (as if a sysadmin is somehow lowly) at Google, but a huge amount of stuff that came out of Google is an enormous step backwards.

I don't know why every generation thinks they invented human intelligence, but I suggest getting past that attitude. It isn't flattering.

Reference: http://slowass.net/~scott/texts/Types_of_system_administrators.html

Edit: Inserted another insult.

[–]immerc 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's a blog meant for students, hence the silly language.

Here's another interview.

Hadoop is a rotten abstraction compared to enormous computers with terabytes of RAM and thousands of processors

That would be a small computer on a Google scale, not suitable for any real work. Google is estimated to have 1 million+ servers each one of which has at multiple cores and as much RAM as is practical. And, while some might be doing Hadoop, others are crawling the web, indexing things, serving maps, encoding videos, and so on.

There's simply no way to do that on one computer.

The point is, (whether or not you believe it's the best solution to the problem), Google has 1 million+ servers, and at that scale a traditional sysadmin who directly manages machines doesn't make much sense. SREs are supposed to be able to understand traditional sysadmin work, but also to be programmers who are comfortable writing and working with tools that abstract away the sorts of things you might want to do on a single machine.

It's likely that the Perl experts they hired weren't hired to do traditional sysadmin roles, but were hired to be SREs working a different kind of job that can't really exist unless/until you have the scale that a company like Google does.

[–]ctindel 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The problem is if you're scaling up you can only scale up so much. If the biggest computer you can buy from HP can't solve the problem in time then you have to do something else. If your job is collecting and parsing log files to count how many times people listened to specific songs so you can pay royalties, hadoop is amazing at that. There's a reason spottify has the largest hadoop cluster in the world, and that is not a problem well served by an rdbms or a single system image cluster.

HP got rid of all that SSI nonsense when they bought Compaq/DEC but only after two wasted years of trying to integrate it into hpux.

[–]scrottie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

HP's Non-Stop work got folded in to Linux and is actively marketed: http://h20564.www2.hp.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c03261871

There are several vendors.

But regardless of who is offering what, acting like programmers parallelizing things manually is a technical innovation is dishonest.

Collecting and parsing log files using any sort of a cluster begs for aggregation without the intermediate step of generating and parsing text. But that's beside the point.

The problem is if you're scaling up you can only scale up so much.

That's a bit of a tautology, but in this case, you no where near approach inherit or implementation limits of NUMA. But that's still beside the point. Even if BlueGene or EarthSimulator choked on httpd log files for some reason, hadoop is still a step backwards from NUMA, innovation wise, so Google engineers describing themselves as "rock stars" who "change the tires of Indy cars while they're moving" because they build hadoop clusters rather exaggerates their accomplishments and unfairly diminishes their fore bearer's.

Edit: Removed the mean bit.

[–]zhaphodtatabox 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I can't find words to express how much I felt identified with your post, thank you so much for sharing it. Keep the coding spirit on.

[–]88leo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We spent several years trying to grow from a 4-5 developer team to a 10 developer team. We are now 2 teams of about 6-7 including a QA person. During the 100's of interviews that we did I often lamented the lack of programmers available for hire. At some point however I realized that the problem really is recruiters, the manager, and the marketing of the job. Recruiters give up on you pretty quick if you reject a lot of their applicants and you become the bucket. My manager it seems had a fear of people with experience or that were smarter than him. He also had this idea that he could take 2nd or 3rd chance programmers and turn them into good team members. This meant he threw aside a lot of resumes that nobody else ever saw, those were the good ones. What it really comes down to is getting all the politics in an organization out of the recruiting process and then you will all of a sudden have good candidates. And, there is nothing dumber than deciding not to bring in a candidate because he didn't read your company website prior to getting a phone interview arranged.

[–]50v3r31gn 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Great comment! However, I have one issue and correct me if I misinterpreted what you said. Did you actually mean that looking at the number of commits on github is the way that you'd recruit someone? Isn't that assuming all good programmers code in their spare time? Aren't there plenty of great programmers who don't view their profession as a hobby, as well? And if that's true, wouldn't a recruiter miss out on a bunch of great talent if they only looked at github?

[–]scrottie 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Looking at people active on github is one way to find good people but certainly not the only. That was an example to illustrate the idea that if you want to find good people, you have to go find them. Users groups, conferences, and various other things can work too.

Edit: And there are some people who can never be found. Why the Luck Stiff sure tried not to be.

[–]gensyms 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think you misinterpreted what the guy said.

He said he'd be on github committers like ugly on an ape. That only means that he values github committers (and I doubt the number of commits has anything to do with it).

Valuing github committers does not in any way, mean devaluing those who don't contribute -- just as saying you like ice cream doesn't mean you don't like bacon.

[–]50v3r31gn 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah yeah I meant contributions. But the second thing you said clarified. Thanks.

[–]xoxoyoyo 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

doing the needful.

LOL, you must work with indian programmers :)

[–]scrottie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some times, but honestly, I first picked this up a long time while working with these guys and gals, as a contractor: http://pariyatti.org

[–]IsNoyLupus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

standing applause

[–]JBlitzen 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Only part I disagree with is that you shouldn't discount ASP.NET as being old crap.

[–]scrottie 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I could be wrong, but I don't remember saying anything about the language itself. What I did say was probably unnecessary, though. Or at least could have been phrased better.

Small companies, stereotypically, are running ASP.NET or PHP with management and programmers who have a very, shall we say, minimal take on what a programmer's skill set should be.

Most of the PHP and ASP.NET programmers I've known haven't had a lot of technical or career aspirations. ASP.NET can be fine for getting things done but PHP should be hauled out back and shot. But aside from that, users of those two languages seem to me the least likely to do continuous improvement and ongoing education (work on skills) as the original article suggested. They're probably as likely as programmers of any other language to be able to get a loop right. Differing opinions welcome if you can tell me where I went wrong.

[–]dgran73 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A lot of good code has been produced with bad programming languages. Visa versa.

[–]scrottie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know and admire one programmer who does a dozen things, including PHP, Ocaml, and now Clojure. He just has a "whatever, but oh, this is neat" attitude.

I think that's rare though. If you can pick what to use and you learn a few things and learn some compsci and security theory and so forth, you naturally shy away from certain languages ;)

[–]JBlitzen 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Well, I imagine Stack Overflow's devs would be amused to hear your opinion of them.

ASP.NET is an extremely powerful technology, and if many incompetent people manage to use it productively, that's not something I'm going to lose sleep over.

For that matter, I've seen some really cool stuff done in PHP.

I long ago lost interest in chasing buzzwords.

[–]gensyms 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're being overly defensive over shit that the guy didn't even say.

He never said anything about incompetence of people using ASP.NET at all. Nor did he say anything about buzzwords. In fact, he never even said anything about ASP.NET as being old crap.

[–]scrottie -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I never said anything about ASP.NET's power as a technology or how productively it is used.

Yes, there's lots of cool stuff in PHP. PHP tends to win by focusing on UI experience. The user experience of Java apps is almost always miserable.

Edit: My original comment about PHP/ASP.NET wasn't very useful. I was conflating too many things. I think PHP/ASP.NET programmers are likely as anyone to be able to write a loop. But I think ASP.NET/PHP shops tend to not have good corporate culture as far as unit testing, revision control, specs, management strategy, managing clients, etc that help make good programmers truly productive and make the place a nice place to work.

[–]Asscuseme 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well done.