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DAE not hate women? (self.ForeverAlone)

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[–]nomegustalemonde 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (75子コメント)

I am just so extremely envious of them. To a point where it hurts much more than being alone (I honestly think I am fine with that by now). I suspect that I just want attention.

If anyone has any advice on how to overcome this useless envy, please help.

[–]JBakernator 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (14子コメント)

I'm envious of women as well. Like many users here have said, submissive and passive personality traits are much more acceptable in them than in men such as myself. In addition, I am also envious of the fact that biologically, they're built to experience 10x more pleasure than us men in intercourse. Also, in my experience I've seen that if a woman is depressed, everyone is supportive and sympathetic, but as a male all I hear is "man up" and "just think positive bro". I think society in general values women more as well. Male suicide success rates are 4x higher than that of females, if the genders were switched, I bet people would care a lot more. I'd like to overcome my useless envy as well in any one of these areas. If anyone can find statistics or provide arguments that disprove any of these statements so that I don't have to be envious, that would be great.

[–]DeathCatforCutie 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I really hate to be "that guy" (or in this case, "that girl"), but only like 25% of women can orgasm via penetration alone, and quite a number never orgasm at all from sex unless their partner is really attentive/knows how to work the clitoris. I'm just saying this because although I'm a virgin, I do consider having 'one night stand sex' every once in a while just to get it over with until I remember the statistics. I'll either get into a long term relationship or stay a virgin forever I guess.

[–]JBakernator 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I guess I worded that poorly. The sources I found online said that women experience 10x more pleasurable orgasms than men do. I understand that it's true that it's much tougher to achieve that level of pleasure, especially via intercourse, but with no refractory period and in the right conditions, women can have the capacity to experience a level of pleasure men can't even begin to imagine. That's the part I'm envious of.

[–]tilapia92 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Lol every male I known who had sex has orgasmed during it. I have never orgasmed during sex. Women have a much harder time orgasming without all the constant drugs and medical attention helping us to do so. men have viagra, etc.

[–]JDNow 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

You asked for counter-arguments, so I will provide.

It's true men are more successful in suiciding than women (what a way to be successful?) but women are more likely to attempt suicide: Nock et al. (2008). Suicide and suicide behavior. Epidemiologic Reviews, 30, 133-154. doi:10.1093/epirev/mxn002 Women are more likely to be depressed than men: http://www.helpguide.org/articles/depression/depression-in-women.htm so that sucks. Men are more successful in killing themselves because they use more lethal means, like guns, jumping off bridges, etc. It's not because they are more suicidal or more depressed than women. Women are more depressed and suicidal than men.

But in the end, it sucks, regardless of who has more or less. One person being depressed or suicidal is one too many, imo.

[–]Ultramegasaurus 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Men are more successful in killing themselves because they use more lethal means, like guns, jumping off bridges, etc. It's not because they are more suicidal or more depressed than women.

That's your interpretation. Another one is that women do it as a cry for help while men do it to actually kill themselves.

[–]JDNow 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Not my interpretation, just fact. I'm not pulling this out of my ass. Men are more likely to shoot themselves, while women are more likely to poison themselves. Women are twice as likely to be depressed.

"A nonfatal suicide attempt is the strongest known clinical predictor of eventual suicide"

Also, failing to kill yourself doesn't mean you walk out alive and well:

"Nonfatal suicide attempts can result in serious injury. 300,000 (or more) Americans survive a suicide attempt each year. People who attempt hanging and survive or charcoal grill carbon monoxide poisoning can face permanent brain damage due to cerebral anoxia. People who take an overdose and survive can face severe organ damage (e.g., liver failure). Individuals who jump from a bridge and survive may face the rupture of multiple organs and severe damage to the spine"

A friend of mine's mother attempted suicide, and that has traumatized her for life. Suicide is a bit like addiction, in that it doesn't just affect the person who is suffering from it, but everyone around them.

If you want to find a psychologist who specializes in suicide to debate these issues, go ahead, but I would never ignore the fact that women are attempting to kill themselves.

To me, this is not a competition. I was just trying to help the person who was asking for a reason not to resent women. It is horrible that men are more successful killing themselves. I read a book, "Myths about Suicide" and studies actually prove reducing access to suicidal means reduces suicide -- this is why you should advocate for suicide barriers on any bridges in your area.

EDIT: When women murder, they're also more likely to poison their victim than men. So I wouldn't be like, oh, she only poisoned that guy, she didn't really mean it. WTF, she tried to kill someone!

[–]Ultramegasaurus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Women are twice as likely to be depressed.

It's because men are much less likely to seek help when depressed or confronted with mental illness in general. The stigma around it affects men much more. A weak man can lose his entirely manhood in the eyes of others while vulnerability is not only tolerated but sometimes even celebrated in women.

[–]JDNow 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Again, by all means go find a psychologist who specializes in this if you really care all that much. But the studies weren't based on people reporting depression, it was based on studies in the general population. Again, I'm not making this up or pulling it out of my ass.

One study reports that men and women experience an equal amount of emotional/mental disorders, just some disorders are more common in women than in men, and vice versa. Women just happen to be more prone to depression than men. This is not a value judgement. It's a public health issue like heart disease.

I absolutely agree that men are told to buck up, and men feel restrained from having honest conversations about their feelings. These are definitely barriers to getting treatment when you're experiencing depression. I also agree that there's a huuuuuge stigma against mental illness, and we should do whatever we can to lessen it, especially since mental disorders in some studies affect up to 40% of the population.

But I don't see the point of disputing that women are more likely to be depressed, when depression as a whole is like 6% of the population, anxiety is 14 percent, and so on. The person who got this started said he resented women because they were less likely to kill themselves, and all I wanted to say is, don't resent women for that reason, because they're more likely to try to kill themselves and are more likely to be depressed in general. So I'd suggest trying to actually help the original commenter, rather than reinforce it, since that's what he asked for.

[–]tilapia92 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Its very telling you that when random data supports your position you fail to acknowledge another's person recognition of complex causes and underlying issues behind the statistics as when the data does not support you position.

[–]Carkudo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

So what's your point? That more women than men are perpetually alone, shunned, unloved, never experiencing any sort of intimacy whatsoever? That is patently false.

[–]JDNow 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

No, my point was, don't envy women because men successfully kill themselves, because women are more likely to try to kill themselves and are more likely to be depressed. The original commenter asked for help in this area, and so I tried to help.

Don't put words in my mouth.

[–]Carkudo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Given how vague the definition of depression is and how poorly the issue is researched, I find it hard to make it a basis for any sort of opinion.

On the other hand, there's the well known fact that women receive a lot more emotional support no matter what they do and how they behave, and also the fact that pretty much no woman is ever completely disqualified from the dating market. I don't exactly envy women, but I do believe that life as a woman is inherently easier than than life as a man.

[–]JDNow 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Well, if women are more likely to get emotional support, but they're still twice as likely to be depressed, then there's something really wrong going on.

Or that depression has a strong biological component, which it does, another reason not to envy women for that reason.

There was this thread awhile back on the topic of whether you'd switch genders if you could (like you'd been born the opposite sex). Not a single man said he would've preferred being born female, unless he was tg, because they'd have to deal with a lot of shit they didn't want to.

[–]Carkudo -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, if women are more likely to get emotional support, but they're still twice as likely to be depressed, then there's something really wrong going on.

Only if we count all depression to be exogenic. Which in itself would require a concrete definition of depression, which doesn't exist. And, at least in the English-speaking internet, depression is by default assumed to be endogenic, so there's that.

I wouldn't switch genders either, but I still believe that women have it inherently easier in life overall, stemming from them having it inherently easier in the aspects of love, sex, companionship and intimacy.

[–]FA_Anarchist 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (48子コメント)

There is no doubt that women have it easier in terms of finding a partner, anyone who denies this is totally delusional. I'm not saying they have it easier in general, because they have to deal with a bunch of issues I'll never rarely have to face, such as sexism, danger, threats of sexual violence, etc.

But just strictly in terms of the early stages of dating? I know women who are incredibly introverted, have little social skills, suffer from social anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, etc., and they have no problem finding a partner. Almost every man with even one or two of those issues will find dating to be extremely challenging, if not impossible.

edit: I know this doesn't apply to every woman on the planet, but the fact is women aren't expected to initiate/make the first move, so any issues that could potentially get in the way of that is not going to affect them the same way it would men.

[–]PowerHuffGirl 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (24子コメント)

There is no doubt that women have it easier in terms of finding a partner, anyone who denies this is totally delusional.

There is doubt.

Confidence matters more for a guy, but looks matter more for a girl. Men can compensate for bad looks with confidence/status, women cannot. Also men are attracted to young women whereas women are more at ease with dating older men or men their age, so men have access to a wider pool of potential partners than women when they age.

I think you're only so sure that "women definitely have it easier" because you're male and that makes you oblivious to the issues that women struggle with in the dating world.

[–]FAWinner 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Confidence matters more for a guy

I disagree with this. Confidence matters only when you are attractive. When an ugly guy acts confident he is considered a creep. As many members/lurkers of this sub can attest to.

Men can compensate for bad looks with confidence/status,

How about height? I'm educated and have a good job in finance.

but looks matter more for a girl

Looks matter for both sexes. I think anyone who says looks don't matter is just lying to themselves.

In fact I think looks matter more to girls than men.

And you have no idea how hard its dating as an Indian man.

[–]Carkudo 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Confidence matters more for a guy, but looks matter more for a girl.

Except, a confident ugly guy is creepy, while a morbidly obese girl still has a good chance of dating a fit attractive man.

Confidence only matters when it's backed up by something. You can't just be confident in "yourself" and expect that to draw people to you.

[–]tilapia92 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

a confident ugly guy is creepy, while a morbidly obese girl still has a good chance of dating a fit attractive man.

You are just being ridiculous at this point because if that is ever truth it as an anomaly. its like saying well i saw a fat, short balding dude with a hottie before so all you fat, short balding dudes need to stop complaining.

In any case confidence is about valuing yourself despite your flaws its not faking it til you make it. If you are unable to acknowledge your flaws and try to be someone you are not hoping someone will take notice, thats not confidence thats being delusional.

[–]Carkudo -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

its like saying well i saw a fat, short balding dude with a hottie before so all you fat, short balding dudes need to stop complaining.

It is, actually. I should've been a bit less categorical about it. However, I do believe that my view is correct. I've known many women who were morbidly obese, disabled or otherwise were very off the conventional standard of physical attractiveness. Every single one was dating a handsome, fit man without having to compensate for their looks with charisma, skills or anything else. Some actually went through several boyfriends over the time I knew them, all of those boyfriends fit and at least of average attractiveness.

The most extreme example I know of is a morbidly obese girl who went to college with me. She literally had trouble fitting through doors, had several severe chronic conditions like epilepsy and diabetes, an extremely abrasive personality and no hobbies besides watching anime. During the time I knew her when we shared classes in college, she went through three boyfriends (that I knew of), all of whom were fit, handsome and well-off.

My physical flaws are severe, but less severe than described above. And I had a period in my life when, after defeating some of the worst flaws, I was pretty confident and happy with myself. People just went out of their way to put me in my place, to demonstrate that I am not attractive, that I'm ugly and don't deserve to be loved.

In any case confidence is about valuing yourself despite your flaws

Yep. And it doesn't make you attractive, because you're the only person in the world interested in valuing you in spite of your flaws. Anyone else can just look for someone without your flaws.

[–]tilapia92 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I think again this is your personal experience. I am not even overweight and have never had anything but trouble finding a relationship. I think its ridiculous to use your personal anecdote about one girl to say all girls can easily find relationships. Its too broad and just simply untrue. Granted FA people in general are outliers.

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        [–]FA_Anarchist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (8子コメント)

        I don't disagree with anything you said, but just because men have the opportunity to make up for lack of physical attractiveness doesn't mean they'll be able to. Because men have to put themselves out there more and take more of a risk, there's more opportunity for things to go wrong, an more of an opportunity to sabotage your own chances.

        In 80% of cases, it's easier for a woman to get into a relationship than a male of similar attractiveness. The likelihood of an average-looking female being FA vs. an average-looking male is not even close, because, like I said, an average-looking male has to take almost all of the initiative when forming relationships, so any other issues he has are much more likely to prevent him from getting a partner.

        All I know is that the majority of women I know would be FA as all hell if they were men. Yes there are a few who would be more willing to take the initiative in forming relationships, and a few who are attractive enough that they could attract a partner on their looks alone, but the average woman would struggle mightily in the dating world if they were of the opposite gender.

        [–]tilapia92 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        I guess just personal anecdote with the caution that I am the anomaly, we all are since we are FA, but I'm a girl and I have never been asked out. I have probably asked out 50 or so guys in my life. Vast majority have been rejections. If you are not a beautiful girl you learn from an early age that you have to take the initiative. I also think men have skewed opinions on beauty and tend to see an an attractive girl as average.

        [–]FA_Anarchist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

        I also think men have skewed opinions on beauty and tend to see an an attractive girl as average.

        Well I can only speak for myself here, so it's possible that what you're saying is true for other men. However, I just did an experiment where I went through my Facebook friends list and counted how many girls I found attractive and/or would be willing to date, and I got about 86%. I definitely find the majority of girls my age attractive.

        I'm sorry that happened to you though, obviously I have sympathy for everyone here because I know how much it sucks. I'm basing what I'm saying on girls I know personally, and most of them are not proactive in forming relationships, yet have no problem getting into them.

        By the way, I thought I saw you post a photo in one of those picture threads a while back, like almost a year ago. I could be thinking of someone else, but whoever I'm thinking of was pretty attractive.

        [–]cruxclaire 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I think that just makes the FA women feel worse, because everyone complains about how easy women have it in the dating world and how they find nearly all women attractive, and that makes the unfortunate few in that undesired minority think along the lines of "damn, I must especially suck." I remember as a teenager, I used to feel bad about not being objectified and catcalled (although I object to catcalling on principle - it's crude and impolite) because I thought it meant there must be something wrong with me.

        [–]FA_Anarchist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Yeah I realize it might come across like that, but keep in mind it's all personal preference. Even of the girls I concluded I would not date, I believe they've all been in relationships before (including having children), and a few of them I just don't think I could date because they're taller than me and I would be uncomfortable with that (I'm only ~ 5'7"). You really shouldn't take it to mean you're in the "bottom" 14% or whatever, I was just trying to show I'm not picky.

        [–]tilapia92 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        Yea sorry I came on a bit strong because I was annoyed. I think many girls don't have to try but all I meant to say is I think for many girls no matter how hard they try they can't overcome the expectations of attraction. The guys I ask out aren't hot, super fit, frat bros. they are regular guys imo, some are weird and quirky like myself, and have had trouble dating themselves.

        Again though I know I am an outlier, maybe for most girls they don't have to go through through the trouble, but some do.

        [–]FA_Anarchist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        That's alright, this is obviously a sensitive subject for everyone here.

        Admittedly part of the reason I'm even saying these things is because I recently had an experience where I really liked a girl who was super introverted, shy, and wouldn't even dream of asking out a guy. I'm pretty social and extroverted but I was still too scared to make a move all those times we hung out. Now, even though she said she had a crush on me at one point, she says she can't see me as anything more than a friend. Meanwhile, she got into a relationship with another guy who she fell in love with. I even found reddit posts and music playlists she made about him. It really tore my heart out and I got really frustrated about how unfair it all was.

        I still stand by the general point I was making, but normally I wouldn't have even brought it up. I've just been very angry and frustrated lately about this particular subject.

        [–]tilapia92 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I understand. I've been there and it sucks because I always thought well what could I have done to be more desirable why wasn't I good enough and will I ever be. I'm starting to get in a better place away from those thought but I'm sorry you're going through it dude.

        [–]earith 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        You're not the only one. I have also asked out guys and told plenty that I liked them and 99% of the time I am rejected. Not once have I been asked out by a guy. I also am introverted and have social anxiety.

        [–]FaAltaesthetically challenged 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        Confidence matters more for a guy, but looks matter more for a girl.

        LOL what? Not in the 21st century. Every day I see guys spending hours a day in the gym to get an attractive body, then I see them with their girlfriends that are overweight and don't even care or make any effort to be and look healthy.

        Lets not forget what we see in online dating trends where women are much more picky about a guy's looks than the other way around. Women also "cheat" with their looks more than men, putting on makeup can raise one's attractiveness, men, everything is out in the open, so if he has an unfortunate face, he's screwed.

        It's true status/money can offset lack of looks in a man, but even that is harder to obtain for men with unmasculine / unattractive faces to obtain because of 'lookism' in the workforce.

        People are typecast by how they look first and foremost, if a guy has a weak chin, short stature, etc. he looks like he lacks confidence. If a guy has a strong square jawline, tall, broad shoulders, etc. he looks like he has a lot of confidence.

        [–]banana_peacock 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (19子コメント)

        "There is no doubt that women have it easier in terms of finding a partner, anyone who denies this is totally delusional."

        Then I'll willingly accept that label. I'm an ugly woman who has never been asked out by a man. Many of my unattractive friends have not been able to get a date or find a partner. And if/when we approach men, we often get viciously rejected, just as ugly men do (with an added, if remote, possibility of violence). We're also labeled desperate/slutty just for asking.

        When you say "women have it easier," you mean attractive to average women.

        [–]FA_Anarchist 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

        What I mean is that the average woman has it easier than the average man. Yes there are outliers, but all things being equal, women have it easier in the initial stages of a relationship.

        To put it another way, I know maybe a handful of women who would do okay in the dating world as men, the rest would be right here on this forum. I don't blame them for not developing the skills necessary to initiate the dating process, because I wouldn't either if I didn't have to. But as it is, they have to take very little risk and put it very little effort compared to men to get into a relationship. Obviously after that initial stage it's more 50/50.

        [–]banana_peacock -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

        " I know maybe a handful of women who would do okay in the dating world as men, the rest would be right here on this forum."

        Unless you know an extremely skewed sample of men, that makes no sense. Men and women pair off in roughly equal numbers, and the VAST majority of men experience dates and relationships.

        [–]ByronicAsianloves Rise Kujikawa 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        I think he's saying those women possess traits that are acceptable for women to have an still be semi-successful, but transfer those to the male side of the spectrum, they would not be as successful.

        [–]Under_the_bluemoon -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        But most women can be assertive if it benefits them (for example, professionally). They just don't usually behave that way in social contexts because it backfires on their reputation, not because they're unable to be assertive.

        [–]FA_Anarchist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

        I'm not sure what you mean. I'm talking about the way that most women interact with men in the initial stages of a relationship. Most women I know do not ask men for their numbers, do not ask men on dates, do not initiate intimacy on those first dates, etc. If a man behaves that way, he will almost always be FA.

        The reason why most men get into relationships is because they do not behave that way. They've learned they need to be more aggressive in pursuing relationships. Women can afford to be more passive.

        [–]Under_the_bluemoon 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

        But women who are unattractive can't "afford to be passive" AND we get penalized for being assertive, too. Even women who are attractive often get hassled for taking initiative ("she must be a slut," "something must be wrong with her," etc.), which is why they don't do it very often.

        [–]FA_Anarchist -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        I admit that there are outliers, but in general, the average woman can have a normal dating life without taking initiative, whereas the average man cannot.

        Even women who are attractive often get hassled for taking initiative ("she must be a slut," "something must be wrong with her," etc.), which is why they don't do it very often.

        That might be true, but I think the main reason why most women don't take the initiative is simply because they don't have to.

        [–]Carkudo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        If there are roughly equal numbers of completely FA men and women, why is everyone on the FAWomen sub experienced?

        I know that the usual answer to that is "Maybe totally FA women just never venture online", but - why don't they?

        [–]BsnCs 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        ya, to be fair,

        that should be qualified with "not obese, not ugly" women.

        [–]Carkudo -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

        I'd bet anything, even a body part, that you have had man show attraction to you flirt, with you and perhaps even outright ask you out, but you rejected them and prefer to pretend those episodes never happened, because you enjoy pitying yourself.

        And if/when we approach men, we often get viciously rejected

        Because on the rare occasion you do approach men, it's always a man who can do much better than you and who KNOWS that. And often also someone who can afford to be an asshole about it.

        [–]tilapia92[M] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (8子コメント)

        Strike 1, rule 1

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                  [–]Ultramegasaurus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  bunch of issues I'll never have to face, such as sexism, danger, threats of sexual violence, etc.

                  Sexism

                  Yeah, sexism against men totally does not exist.

                  Danger

                  Yeah, men never get beat up, mugged or murdered.

                  Threats of sexual violence

                  Yeah, men never get molested or raped

                  [–]FA_Anarchist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  You're right, never was a bit strong, so I'm sorry if I offended any men who have experienced those things. Ultimately I was just trying to extend an olive branch to show I wasn't completely unsympathetic to women's plights, but that getting into a relationship is clearly an area where women have an advantage.

                  [–]tilapia92 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  Not at the same rates I would argue. Prison rape is obviously a very serious phenomenon in which massive amounts of men are raped but I don't think most men outside of that system experience the levels of harassment and sexual assault that women do.

                  He never said they never do, but if you think they happen at the same rates you are kidding yourself.

                  [–]slurpeeburpee 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

                  Useless envy is just as bad as useless anxiety, I think it helps to practice self-awareness and introspection, find out where that useless envy is coming from and then take a metaphorical shotgun to its silly little existence.

                  [–]nomegustalemonde 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  then take a metaphorical shotgun to its silly little existence

                  This is probably more difficult than it sounds, though. I agree that avoiding anything which makes you unhappy is probably not productive in the long run, but I am not sure the self-awareness and introspection part necessarily leads anywhere either.

                  But I guess there would be no unhappy people if negative thoughts were easy to get rid of. Thanks for your reply.

                  [–]Carkudo -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

                  Accepting the fact that women have it easy is not envy.

                  [–]slurpeeburpee 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

                  Woahhhhh wait. WUT? Expand on how wimmins have it easy?

                  [–]Carkudo -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

                  No matter her physical or personality flaws, a woman will always have men attracted to her, meaning no woman is ever doomed to a lonely existence. Of course, that leaves the issue of how attractive those potential partners are, but that doesn't negate the validation that comes with being valued as a human being.

                  [–]cruxclaire 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

                  a woman will always have men attracted to her, meaning no woman is ever doomed to a lonely existence

                  The fundamental misunderstanding here is in the idea that having people physically attracted to you equates to "not being doomed to a lonely existence." As a women, I don't doubt that I'd have an easier time finding sex/one night stands than my male equivalent; however, that doesn't necessarily make me less lonely. Contrary to that, the feeling of being reduced to an orfice/tits/whatever is very demeaning. I've had the experience of going into college bars where stangers would come up and grind on me without talking to me first, and I know some girls who like that because it makes them feel wanted, but I always hated it because I knew they didn't give a shit about anything beyond my body, which left me every bit as lonely as I was when I was totally ignored by males.

                  I've noticed that people on here will often lash out at other posters who have had sex but are having trouble finding fulfilling emotional connections with others when the problems and struggles are ultimately the same. Sex and love may ideally come together, but one doesn't necessarily denote the other, and the assumption to the contrary seems to color many of the posts here about how easy women supposedly have it. I obviously can't speak to the experience of all women, but having casual sex made me feel more emotionally diposable, if anything.

                  [–]Carkudo -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

                  Contrary to that, the feeling of being reduced to an orfice/tits/whatever is very demeaning.

                  See, you find it demeaning because you feel someone is only valuing you in the sexual sense, instead of both in the sexual sense AND the personal sense. Now, imagine what a person feels when they're completely worthless both sexually and romantically.

                  And now, take a look at your chances. You can have lots and lots of sexual encounters, each of which can turn into a romantic one. Sure, the probability of that isn't very high, but... that's really your only complaint. That not everyone who wants to go to bed with you (an intimate and validating act in itself, which you have the luxury of taking for granted), wants to have a serious relationships with vows and stuff. Now... as someone who is sexually attractive to a lot of people, do you really, seriously, believe that your probability of finding someone willing to go beyond an ONS is lower than that of a man who's disqualified from any and all mutual sex?

                  Sex and love may ideally come together, but one doesn't necessarily denote the other

                  And that's why people lash out. Your complaint is that sex doesn't NECESSARILY mean a relationship. The men's complaint is that lack of sex NECESSARILY means a lack of a relationship. People who are precluded from having something lash out at you when you complain about not being guaranteed the very same thing.

                  [–]cruxclaire 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

                  Now, imagine what a person feels when they're completely worthless both sexually and romantically.

                  I've been there too, and I remember hearing other girls complain about being catcalled or having creeps hit on them and seething with resentment for the same reasons as you: I felt like they were complaining about very luxurious problems. I'm not very experienced and I haven't slept with very many people at all, but what little experience I have hasn't made me feel more fulfilled. I regret some of it, where I think I might have ruined a potential friendship because it would be awkward afterwards with such a disparity between the physical intimacy and emotional coldness.

                  do you really, seriously, believe that your probability of finding someone willing to go beyond an ONS is lower than that of a man who's disqualified from any and all mutual sex?

                  Disqualified? That sounds pretty damn final. I think the only thing that would "disqualify" a person totally from consensual sex is physical disability along the lines of being stuck in a straitjacket, etc. There are too many people in the world to make that huge of a generalization. I have no idea how old you are, but I reckon it's probably too young to give up hope like that.

                  As far as your actual (rhetorical) question goes, I'm honestly not sure - like I said, casual sex has not helped me forge emotional connections.

                  The men's complaint is that lack of sex NECESSARILY means a lack of a relationship.

                  Ideally for me, the emotional relationship would come before the sex. Maybe most men view it in an inverse way? I wouldn't call myself FA, but I would call myself lonely because sexual and emotional relationships have been mutually exclusive for me (and both varieties few and far between). I'm not sure I entirely understand what you're saying.

                  [–]Carkudo -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

                  seething with resentment for the same reasons as you

                  I love how you assume I am "seething with resentment" I was actually talking about an inability to relate, meaning it's unwise to put those two issues together, but you instead are choosing to paint me as some irrational evil zealot.

                  Disqualified? That sounds pretty damn final.

                  Yeah, and after 30 years old, statistics agree that it is.

                  You do not have a lifetime of being denied sexual validation behind you. And an FA man can't derive that validation from thinking "Well, I don't know that it won't happen some day in the future" Let's not forget that sex doesn't happen to men anyway. It happens to women. Men have to initiate and be accepted.

                  Ideally for me, the emotional relationship would come before the sex.

                  But not before attraction.

                  sexual and emotional relationships have been mutually exclusive for me

                  You mean, you've been in relationships with people who were sexually, romantically attracted to you, provided emotional intimacy and support, shared romantic feelings, but did not engage in sexual acts?

                  [–]cruxclaire 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  but you instead are choosing to paint me as some irrational evil zealot.

                  I was referring to myself, not to you.

                  Let's not forget that sex doesn't happen to men anyway. It happens to women. Men have to initiate and be accepted.

                  I'd rather think of it as something you actively take part in, not something that "happens to" you. This is kind of insulting, actually. It's not like women sit and stare off into space and are suddenly having sex. Both parties have to play their cards right. And thanks to people trying more actively these days to overcome gender roles and stereotypes, it's getting increasingly common for women to initiate. Women also have to be accepted.

                  But not before attraction.

                  Eh, I'm usually more sexually attracted to people I feel like I've emotionally connected with. My high school crushes were guys whom it had never occurred to me to be attracted to until I realized how much I liked them as people. Maybe the kind of Harry and Sally attraction that happens long after forming emotional bonds is the exception rather than the rule, but I'd argue in favor of its existence.

                  [–]NightAria 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

                  I think this post if you read through the replies might help you be a little less jealous of the attention women get from men. It might not work but just throwing it out there.