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Was RIP a necessity? (self.MTGLegacy)

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I mean really, there are tons and tons of GY hate cards. There's Bojuka Bog for lands, there's grafdigger, there's leyline of the void, relic, crypt, DRS, and so on. These were all good cards, yes GY decks are a little unfair, so they made these cards a little unfair to play against. But they have there limits, bog is a land so obviously it's not for every deck, grafdigger allows you to get stuff in, but not mess with it and let it out, leyline is hard to beat, but if you can beat it you usually don't have to worry again. Relic is a decent card all around, shrinks goyfs, cycles and like crypt it can be pinpointed to just stop a gy deck if you know the game and can hit it at the right time. Also Death Rite Shaman is just fun, So much versatility and power for 1 mana, adds so many options to the game just a great and fun card. But then there's RIP who just says you don't get to play until you draw nature's claim, or show and tell, and if I draw another you lose too. It's really just OP in my opinion, not fun to play with or against as there's nothing to it besides throwing a couple in the board and just auto winning. How do you guys feel about it?

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[–]slack 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Unchecked graveyard strategies are unreasonably strong in my opinion. It's not like legacy, one of the formats with the best answers in the game can't deal with it. I don't really know whether it was strictly necessary but I personally don't have s problem with its existence. For the record I play reanimator.

[–]Dat_GentlemanMiracle Control 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

At this point, I think the card is clunky and frequently not worth the slot. The purpose it serves, in my opinion, is to exist and keep decks in check rather than to be the go-to grave hate.

Now that Dig Through Time is a thing, nobody in white wants to kill their own yard, I believe just about everyone has something to lose. It's good enough at what it does to see play still, but a lot of decks that previously loved it now play Snapcaster, DTT, or others that make it very inconvenient to play.

Rest in Peace is best against Dredge and Lands, and can be debatably brought in versus Goyf decks. Relic of Progenitus and Grafdigger's cage are better against Reanimator, while Cage is great against Elves. Containment Priest hits S&S, Reanimator, Elves, Dredge, and sort of D&T. What I'm saying is that Rest in Peace is a dumb card, but I don't think it is the best graveyard hate to play right now, which keeps these decks viable and strong.

[–]TheWorldMayEnd 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (30子コメント)

Sounds like someone is just salty because they play a graveyard deck.

[–]logopolysDeath & Taxes - When s*** cards unite 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

It may seem excessive against some Legacy decks, but remember that it was designed and developed with limited and Standard environments in mind. The damage that it may do to formats that don't rotate isn't an issue to R&D, and in that regard, it's not really overpowered at all.

[–]d3sden0va 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

This is incorrect. R&D absolutely designs with eternal formats in mind too. Abrupt Decay sure wasn't designed for standard.

[–]SarahPMe 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm positive Legacy came up in the discussion while they were toying with the card, but it may have been designed/developed mostly for Modern as opposed to Eternal formats.

[–]random_bananasUWr Stoneblade 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It has been confirmed by Erik Lauer, the lead developer of the set, that the card was printed to fight Counterbalance specifically.

[–]LRatsUWR Delver/Omni-Tell 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Abrupt Decay was absolutely designed for Standard, they just knew it would also be good in older formats.

[–]mpaw9754C Loam 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

From Mark Rosewater's "Card Day's Night":

"The "can't be countered" cycle [in Return to Ravnica] has drawn a lot of attention to itself. So how and why did the design team put it into the file? The answer is we didn't. This entire cycle was, in fact, thought up and executed by the development team as the creation of the lead developer, Erik Lauer. The reason it exists is that Erik was looking to both add a splashy cycle and create something that would have relevance to some older eternal formats."

From Mark Rosewater's "Storming the Gatecrash, Part 2":

"Return to Ravnica had a rare cycle of uncounterable spells (Supreme Verdict, Counterflux, Abrupt Decay, Slaughter Games, and Loxodon Smiter). Erik Lauer added these cards in development because he wanted to add some cards that would be relevant not only in Standard but also in Legacy and Vintage."

Erik Lauer, via Necropotenza

"[...] With Legacy, we sometimes design "answer cards" such as Abrupt Decay being an answer to Counterbalance."

[–]TweetsInCommentsBot 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

@Necropotenza

2012-11-16 10:00 UTC

Erik Lauer: "[...] With Legacy, we sometimes design "answer cards" such as Abrupt Decay being an answer to Counterbalance." #mtgquotes

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[–]LRatsUWR Delver/Omni-Tell 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not sure if you are refuting me or adding to my point, but this is basically what I said. They still designed it for Standard, They just knew that it also solved a problem in Legacy. It wasn't like Abrupt Decay never saw play in Standard. If it caused a problem in Standard it would have been axed/changed.

[–]ashleeillustrationsANT 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not surprising considering white always get the best sideboard cards.

Most decks with some graveyard reliance can still win with it in play. Goyfs decks have other threats, Storm can go off without Past in Flames, even Reanimator has the hardcast Griselbrand line as a small possibility. I think just Dredge basically can't win without killing it.

[–]noahgs 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is why i side decays for reanimator, and if your playing dredge, thats the deal, you win game one, lose game 2/3

[–]ExalliumMiracles 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's what people get for playing dredge.

[–]nightfire0Miracles -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It was necessary to make you salty, yes.

[–]Some_Lurker_Guy -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (21子コメント)

I have to agree that it's heavy handed. Leyline was already good enough imo, and rip only sees play in formats that aren't even dominated by gy decks. Vintage, where dredge is the uncontested best deck, rip isn't even good. So it's a little bit much to print rip i have to agree. The pseudo cycle of white-hoses-everything kind of blows.

[–]d3sden0va 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (20子コメント)

Vintage

Dredge is the uncontested best deck

What?

[–]milesroutRUG Delver 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It is indisputably the best deck in vintage game 1. Without a doubt. It has an absurd winrate game 1. It's an insane deck. It's absolutely ridiculously good. The only reason it's not the most powerful thing in the format by far is cards like Rest in Peace.

[–]Some_Lurker_Guy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah these other posters must never have played it, dredge is the most consistent deck in magic because it's like a 1 card combo.

[–]milesroutRUG Delver 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah to get the ball rolling you need a Bazaar of Baghdad and basically nothing else. I have mulliganned - on MTGO, I can't afford real life Vintage decks haha - to a single Bazaar and still won turn 2.

[–]campee 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Except when it mulligans into oblivion for lack of a Bazaar of Baghdad

[–]Some_Lurker_Guy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The odds of that are terrible. It's like 80% (39 for bazaar or 39 for powder) to have either a bazaar or serum powder in your opener. I don't know the math off the top of my head but it's seriously hard to miss on a bazaar with the serum powder version.

[–]InkmothNexusLED || Cabal Therapy, Pile-Blade 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

well apparently some people contest it, like you, but dredge is just the best deck. you will win upwards of 80% of your preboard games, losing to fast combo, mulling to 1 without finding bazaar, and opposing dredge with leylines. you will win upwards of 60% of your postboard games, because you are trying to resolve the 1 card combo of "chewer your cage, win the game" while drawing 3 cards a turn. In the format where you can play with almost any magic card ever printed, dredge is the boogeyman. If almost every other deck in the format needs half its board to not just autolose every match to dredge, I'm not sure how it could be argued that it isn't the best deck.

[–]GordonutsEnd of turn, spin Top 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Because it doesn't consistently perform well?

It's over represented in the online meta because it's cheaper than other tier 1 decks, but it still sees less success than MUD variants or blue control decks. It might be the most powerful deck in a vacuum, but Vintage isn't a vacuum. Lots of decks are doing insane things and Dredge is the most poorly equipped to deal with other decks, while other decks are most prepared for them.

[–]InkmothNexusLED || Cabal Therapy, Pile-Blade 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am not that familiar with the online meta. I know that in paper 15-proxy events where I am (pennsylvania) dredge is maybe 5-10% of the room, and moneys a substantially higher percentage than that. In the most recent event on morphling with over 20 players, there were 2 dredge players in the top 8. that was 2 dredge players out of 5-6(I was there, that's what I remember seeing) in a 63 man event. looking at small events can be misleading, as it is very likely that if a dozen people play proxy vintage, none of them is going to want to proxy up dredge.

[–]GordonutsEnd of turn, spin Top 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In the most recent event on Morphling with over 20 players, there were 2 dredge players in the top 8.

This is true, and Dredge was clearly well positioned in that tournament, but if you look at the rest of the results from this year, the vast majority of top 8s had zero Dredge lists in them. I'm not saying Dredge is a bad deck, it's clearly tier 1-1.5 (depending on the month), but there just isn't the data to support an argument that it's the best deck.

[–]Some_Lurker_Guy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What do you mean? Vintage dredge is the most consistent and fastest combo in the game, 4 serum powder to mulligan to one of 4 bazaar is all it needs to go off and if every deck didn't run sideboard hate it would no doubt win every tournament.

[–]GordonutsEnd of turn, spin Top 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Good thing people run ~7 sideboard cards against it typically. It has a great game 1, but bad enough games 2 and 3 that it fits right in with the rest of the meta, top 8ing somewhat frequently, occasionally winning. Right where it should be imo

[–]InkmothNexusLED || Cabal Therapy, Pile-Blade 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

honestly, I don't know who these dredge players are that actually have bad %es postboard against random fairish decks boarding in lots of hate. even if that's actually true, saying dredge isn't the best deck because everyone's packing sideboard hate is like saying vampires aren't that scary while covered in stakes, crucifixes, and garlic.

[–]GordonutsEnd of turn, spin Top 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To me, the best deck is one that has the best chance of winning/top 8ing a tournament. Sometimes that deck is Dredge, when the meta at large stops running enough grave hate. When lots of decks are running Nihil Spellbomb in the main and tons of hate in the board it's hard for Dredge to win consistently enough to make it to the end of a tourney.

[–]XVOS 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A lot of pros actually use this language about dredge, though they generally prefer the term powerful or insert a caveat about hate. If we are talking about a non-hate environment it's pretty hard to argue that vintage dredge isn't the most powerful deck ever. It's plan is incredibly powerful and it executes it pretty much every game.

[–][deleted] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

If most played means best then yeah, but it's just over represented because it's about 1/10 the cost of all other vintage decks, not the best though

[–]d3sden0va 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Well sure. It's the undisputed best deck under like 1200 bucks I guess, but it's hardly a deck I'd choose on an unlimited budget.

[–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'd probably go shops, just because Mishra's factory has always been my favorite card, I'll buy a play set someday.

[–]ashleeillustrationsANT 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Right now I think I would just play blue Belcher.

[–]BosaapjeAnything with Brainstorm and FoW 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Blue Belcher is so awesome. It has everything that I want, protection and a really fast kill.

[–]ashleeillustrationsANT 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty much. I play Twin in Modern and ANT in Legacy, most sensible Vintage deck for me I think.