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"Fuck Snowden. Attention-whoring douchebag." A different kind of "freedom martyr" wanders into /r/worldpolitics. (np.reddit.com)

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[–]KillSnowden 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (18子コメント)

It's funny how such an essentially conservative, nationalist type guy like Ed Snowden can draw so much hate for doing what is celebrated every day in every US history book.

"for doing what is celebrated every day in every US history book" -- you do realize that Snowden committed the largest breach of intelligence not in just US history, but world history, right? He stole 1.7 million classified documents by keylogging his coworkers, didn't read a goddamned one of them, and then gave them to whoever the hell would pay attention to him. That's what a whistleblower does?

Riddle me this: how the fuck could he be 'blowing the whistle' when he didn't even know what he was releasing?

He never says anything radical in any way, just "hey maybe the people of a democracy should be able to have some input and debate on whether or not they are constantly surveilled".

Are you kidding me? The guy is a dramatic attention-whore to the max. You are one confused, confused little boy if you seriously believe this.

  • "It's not about anonymity, it's not about secrecy—It's about control."

  • [after his propaganda piece for Putin] "[it] surprised that people who witnessed me risk my life to expose the intelligence practices of my own country could not believe that I might criticize the surveillance policies of Russia, a country to which I have shown no allegiance, without ulterior motive."

That doesn't strike you as, well, a bit off?

Let's take the sentiment of "Oh shit, government is intolerably unjust and opaque, I feel compelled to take personal action and bring this to the citizenry's attention while minimizing the risk that it will hurt everyone else"

You know what the funny thing is? Despite committing the largest intelligence breach in world history, not a single thing has been shown to be illegal in court despite literally thousands of lawsuits. Not only that, the fucking vast majority of Snowden's leaks have nothing to do with "domestic surveillance". His first goddamned leak in the SCMP was about the US conducting surveillance on China, for christ's sake.

If said by George Washington, FUCKIN PATRIOT MAKE 1000 STATUES FOR THIS GUY

Remind me, at what point did a 29 year old George Washington appoint himself the defender of liberty, before absconding to Great Britain with all the parchments, war plans, and documentation about the founding fathers he could get his grubby little mitts on?

If said by Snowden, WHAT A FUCKING TRAITOR HANG HIM HANG HIM

I don't think Snowden should get hanged. I think he should get a trial, in which he'll rather easily get convicted because the little twit is so overwhelmingly guilty, and hopefully he spends the rest of his miserable life locked in a 6x8 cell mindlessly pacing back and forth for 23 hours a day. That would be ideal, to me.

https://freedom.press/blog/2014/01/russian-spy-tactics-used-rep-rogers-snowden-were-pioneered-nixon-admin-against-daniel

Nobody thinks Ellsberg was a Russian spy these days but the same bullshit comes up again and again with "Snowden" replacing "Ellsberg".

Oh, look, mentioning Ellsberg. Do you know the difference between Ellsberg and Snowden?

  • Daniel Ellsberg released the Pentagon Papers. He didn't release the Pentagon Papers and also 1.7 million other random classified documents.

    • Snowden, on the other hand, stole 1.7 million classifed documents by keylogging his coworkers, didn't read them, and then proceeded to hand them out to whoever would pay attention to him

  • Daniel Ellsberg was one of the primary authors of the so-called 'pentagon papers', and he had extensive knowledge about the entire project.

    • Snowden, on the other hand, knew nothing and continues to know nothing about the 1.7 million classified documents he stole by keylogging his coworkers, the 1.7 million classified documents that he didn't read, that he handed out all willy-nilly to whoever would pay attention to him, because as an ultralibertarian 29 year old high school dropout, he knew better than everyone else.

  • Daniel Ellsberg, by the way, was never "exonerated" -- he had a mistrial because the prosecution screwed up their case

How in the hell can you possibly think he's some kind of hero? Who the fuck appointed him to the post of "defender of the American people"? I don't remember there being an election for that. I wouldn't even have a problem with him if 1) he actually had blown the whistle on something illegal (reminder: nothing was/is illegal) and 2) he hadn't randomly decided to steal 1.7 million classified documents by keylogging his coworkers, and then giving them away to whoever would pay attention to him.

I mean, I would be surprised, but unfortunately it seems the non-technologically-savvy (read: you) are just naive enough to buy into all his nonsense.

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[–]jackrousseauFriendly Anarchist Shit-Disturber -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Someone really doesn't like Snowden... I mean, you're pretty damn dedicated. But here, briefly:

That's what a hero does?

You're god damn right. Of course, you don't have a single source for this entire huge rant, so who knows which of your details are made up and which aren't, but yeah, sometimes people are heroes for standing up for their values at great personal cost. I mean it's subjective, maybe you are big on East Germany's approach to human rights and think that it's traitorous to undermine it, but personally I think that in a democracy the people should be made aware of major issues.

not a single thing has been shown to be illegal in court despite literally thousands of lawsuits.

One federal judge called a program "Orwellian". Fuck, even the worst lawyer in the United States, Larry Klayman, has been on a winning streak in the courts against the NSA. But your assertion lacks important context: big, important legal challenges like this take years to wind their way through the system, and the revelations happened less than two years ago. So this isn't surprising.

Do you know the difference between Ellsberg and Snowden?

Let's ask Ellsberg himself!

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/07/daniel-ellsberg-snowden-honored-his-oath-better-than-anyone-in-the-nsa/375031/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html

"Snowden believes that he has done nothing wrong. I agree wholeheartedly. More than 40 years after my unauthorized disclosure of the Pentagon Papers, such leaks remain the lifeblood of a free press and our republic. One lesson of the Pentagon Papers and Snowden’s leaks is simple: secrecy corrupts, just as power corrupts."

"And I'll just end by saying, people ask, is he a patriot or a traitor? That drives me nuts, the very thought that people could regard you as a traitor. The ignorance of the media and the congresspeople and the other interviewers who raised that question offends me as an American, that they think that it can be traitorous to tell the truth to your fellow countrymen. Here's the standard I would like to see set: "Snowden was the one person in the fucking NSA who did what he absolutely should have done." How many people should've done what you did! ... And no one in the U.S. executive branch, or in any branch of government, has fulfilled the oath to uphold and protect the Constitution as well as you, so thank you."

I guess you'd know better than Ellsberg about whistleblowing, though. My mistake.

Who the fuck appointed him to the post of "defender of the American people"?

Who the fuck appointed George Washington and his buddies to the same when they took action in the late 1700s? Yet you obviously have no problem with it.

[–]mrgoodnighthairdo 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone really doesn't like Snowden

This whole Snowden was a hero vs. Snowden was a traitor argument is pointless.

Snowden acted irresponsibly in releasing classified materials that were not related to domestic surveilance. He also was instrumental in blowing the whistle on those surveillance programs.

Snowden acted in a capacity that both improper and commendable.

There. Argument over. You're welcome.

[–]KillSnowden 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (12子コメント)

You're god damn right.

How is thieving 1.7 million classified documents, none of which have anything to do with so-called "domestic surveillance", a heroic act? How is leaking details about US intelligence operations to the Chinese a heroic act? It was his first leak, for christ's sake.

so who knows which of your details are made up and which aren't

Uh, everything I just posted above is pretty well established. What did you have a problem with, in particular?

maybe you are big on East Germany's approach to human rights and think that it's traitorous to undermine it, but personally I think that in a democracy the people should be made aware of major issues.

Nice. I don't like Snowden, therefore I am literally Stasi. Quick question: have you ever even hacked anything before? Have you ever implemented an encryption algorithm just for the fun of it? Do you know the difference between TCP/IP and UDP, or how packet switching works? No? Oh, okay, so you're just blathering on from a position of mindless ignorance then. Got it. Great.

One federal judge called a program "Orwellian".

Maybe you should provide the context. Aren't you the clown who was just criticizing me over a lack of citations?

By the way, I actually already know exactly what you're talking about. The case was appealed and, shockingly, the lower-court's judge's opinion was overturned. So yeah, looks like you're back to square one, homeslice.

But your assertion lacks important context: big, important legal challenges like this take years to wind their way through the system

Yeah, see, that's funny, because it has been years, bud. And the thousands of court cases? Not a single fucking one has ruled there was anything illegal.

Let's ask Ellsberg himself!

I don't really give a shit what Ellsberg thinks, to be honest. Ellsberg released specific documents about specific misconduct in the government, that's why I have no problems with labeling him a whistleblower.

Snowden, on the other hand, released millions of documents that he had never read even once, that contained absolutely no illegal activity or so-called "domestic surveillance", and purposely tried to cripple US intelligence efforts for the benefit of an autocratic second-world dictator named Vlad. Eddy is just a shrill piece of Kremlin agitprop, as if it wasn't obvious enough given that a) he's guarded 24/7 by FSB and b) his Russian lawyer is, shockingly, ex-FSB.

What's more, the dumb fuck is going to make it ny impossible for actual whistleblowers to do anything now, since the government is (rightfully) going to be having a much tighter grip on classified information, because they're getting crucified by the dim, dull, and slow despite having legitimately done nothing wrong. That fucking moron Snowden is going to be the cause of an actual police state, and here you are, the very brave dunce cheering him on & clumsily attempting to zip up your fly without getting your dick caught in it.

Who the fuck appointed George Washington and his buddies to the same when they took action in the late 1700s?

... are you actually simple or something? The continental congress did. Color me shocked you're just clueless enough to argue some vague point about George Washington self-appointing himself when he didn't self-appoint himself, lol.

[–]Cuddle_ApocalypseTinker, Tailor, Soldier, Shill 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

http://i.imgur.com/K6PLOUA.gifv

[–]jackrousseauFriendly Anarchist Shit-Disturber 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

none of which have anything to do with so-called "domestic surveillance"

PRISM, EO 12333, Section 215, MYSTIC, any of the other dozens of programs revealed, you're saying literally none of them have anything to do with the NSA spying on Americans? You're just laughably ignorant.

Uh, everything I just posted above is pretty well established.

Sources or it's bullshit.

Nice. I don't like Snowden, therefore I am literally Stasi.

What is your problem with the Stasi, besides for the fact that it worked for a government you didn't like? Do you agree that everything it did was perfectly legal? If you were a citizen of East Germany would you think the Stasi's actions were perfectly legitimate?

I don't really give a shit what Ellsberg thinks, to be honest.

So you just want to rant about Ellsberg but when the man himself speaks you don't care anymore, eh?

Yeah, see, that's funny, because it has been years, bud.

Major court cases in the US take more than 2 years. Many take up to a decade. I don't know what Top Legal Minds you've been talking to in order to think that the court cases are all settled but you'd better get your money back.

Not a single fucking one has ruled there was anything illegal.

See above; many cases are slowly winding their way through the system and so this is a meaningless statement as is, but there's a bigger issue here: there's a good reason why trust in most US institutions, even the judiciary, has been collapsing for decades. The court at issue, FISA, for example rejected 12 of 30 odd thousand requests since its inception and is a secret court making secret decisions with secret evidence. But beyond that the Supreme Court is happy to go against 250 years of legal theorizing about bribery in cases like Citizens United. The lower benches and appeals courts are stacked with authoritarians who typically had experience as corporate lawyers or criminal prosecutors, acting as little more than prosecutors in robes when it comes to towing the government line. Why should anyone trust this system to rule against the government in the first place? We've seen John Yoo and others bending the law to whatever they need, including outright torture, and that's good enough for every court that looks at the program. It's little different when it comes to the NSA.

and tried to cripple US intelligence efforts.

Source? He's said that intelligence efforts should be focused on real threats. Given that the document release has never been shown to harm intelligence efforts, people, or national security, it sounds like you're full of shit.

The continental congress did.

After they illegally decided to break away from the King, of course. Before that he had no small hand in agitating and stirring up conflict - sounds like a traitor to me by your standards.

You're just engaged in thousands of words of bullshit and special pleading. The patriots of history you like, the ones of today you hate.

[–]zxcv1992 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (7子コメント)

The patriots of history you like, the ones of today you hate.

For a patriot he sure let's himself get used in Russian propaganda a lot.

[–]jackrousseauFriendly Anarchist Shit-Disturber -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

"A lot"

Other than Putin getting to one-up Obama, it doesn't seem to me like anyone anywhere in the world is thinking Russia is a better place because Snowden has asylum there.

I'll wait until you blast the blind Chinese dissident Chen Guangcheng for taking American asylum and letting himself be used in American propaganda a lot.

[–]zxcv1992 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Other than Putin getting to one-up Obama, it doesn't seem to me like anyone anywhere in the world is thinking Russia is a better place because Snowden has asylum there.

Well that isn't what RT would have you believe.

I'll wait until you blast the blind Chinese dissident Chen Guangcheng for taking American asylum and letting himself be used in American propaganda a lot.

He called out the US for caring more about economic interests than human rights, hardly good propaganda.

[–]jackrousseauFriendly Anarchist Shit-Disturber -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Well that isn't what RT would have you believe.

RT, well known for convincing people around the world, based on Snowden asking a single question one time and then writing an op-ed attacking Putin in a very widely read and trusted Western paper.

He called out the US for caring more about economic interests than human rights

Where, amongst the pro-American propaganda, was that?

[–]zxcv1992 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

RT, well known for convincing people around the world,

You would be surprised, the conspiracy types eat that shit up.

Where, amongst the pro-American propaganda, was that?

It was here http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/10/11049/. It's still spinned pretty pro-US though.

[–]jackrousseauFriendly Anarchist Shit-Disturber -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The conspiracy types also think jet fuel melts steel beams and have no meaningful impact on national discourse.

It's still spinned pretty pro-US though.

No kidding.

"Renowned human-rights activist Chen Guangcheng calls on American citizens to recognize that China’s barbaric violations of human dignity threaten justice on a global scale. Americans must take practical, immediate actions, no matter how small, to abolish these atrocities."

"Leaders of a nation, especially leaders of the world’s foremost superpower, the United States, not only have remarkable abilities to govern the nation, but should also have the grand goal of keeping world peace. Only in this way can the good flourish and the bad be eliminated."

This is ridiculous pro-US propaganda. Seriously can you imagine what Chinese people are saying right now about this guy, if all it takes for legions to hate Snowden is him asking a throwaway question on a Putin Q&A? Why aren't Americans criticizing Chen Guangcheng for this bullshit? Why isn't he raging against drone strikes? Why is he such a hypocrite? Why are Snowden's attackers ignoring this hypocrisy and themselves being hypocrites?

The alternative is considering that campaigners for justice in their own country often face difficult situations and shouldn't be attacked for keeping themselves alive and speaking in other countries, even if they can only criticize their own country while there. If I am a Chinese guy and don't like Chinese human rights abuses, I shouldn't be forced to call out every other country in the world. That's just not what I'm out to do.

[–]clarence-darrowMerry c-word 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The patriots of history you like, the ones of today you hate.

No, we like lots of patriots of today. Snowden just isn't one of them.

[–]jackrousseauFriendly Anarchist Shit-Disturber 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Everyone hated Ellsberg until it was revealed how fucking shady Nixon was, now everyone loves Ellsberg.

It will be the same with Snowden in some years. You'll just have to pretend you always loved him.