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Rothbard's most controversial position involved the legality of abandoning children. What say ye to this? (nbcwashington.com)

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[–]snex00 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (29子コメント)

If abandoning children is legal in a free society, and people have a problem with this, there is an incentive to start a business to care for abandoned children.

In a society where abandoning children is illegal, there would only be black markets for dealing with abandoned children. And those tend to have worse results than the abandoning.

[–]GTnicholasPyrrhonian Skeptic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (15子コメント)

umm, punish the abandoner and care for the abandoned child without binding them to their parents? duh

[–]of_ice_and_rockit would be its own pregnancy, give birth to its own god 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (4子コメント)

punish the abandoner

Raising the cost of abandoning a child to a level where the child isn't abandoned doesn't guarantee that the parent is going to raise the child well.

Indeed, the parent will likely be resentful and cruel to the child in ways it thinks it can get away with, and one certainly can't force love.

In this sense, it would actually be very useful to quickly figure out who are going to be terrible parents, precisely by not intimidating them into not revealing their true nature.

Thus, Rothbard's position may seem grim, but it is only due to a grim context, and it's actually one of the most functional ways out of that scenario.

[–]repmackRepmackian 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Except it wouldn't be illegal for a parent to withdraw their parental responsibility. They could choose to have a family member or someone else care for the child. Adoption would be a thing in ancapistan.

What's illegal is neglectful behavior like leaving them outside to die.

[–]of_ice_and_rockit would be its own pregnancy, give birth to its own god 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Ah, I see. You meant abandonment in the narrow sense.

That could be subsumed into endangerment, like shooting bullets around someone's head or leaving explosive chemicals improperly stored.

[–]repmackRepmackian -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah pretty much. I was thinking along I believe it was Rothbards example of leaving a baby out in the snow on the edge of your property. He thought that was fine. I happen to disagree.

[–]GTnicholasPyrrhonian Skeptic -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a good point. I was trying to demonstrate a third option because /u/snex00 struck me as being unimaginatively fatalistic about how libertarian law might work this problem out. But thats something I didn't consider.

[–]fia_buiVoluntaryist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

If clearly advertised resources for caring for dependents who's families aren't willing/able to look after existed then she probably wouldn't have done this.

Eg. Legal abandonment: Any mother can take an infant to a fire station/police station/hospital in many countries and hand them over without repercussions. The result is that there's less infanticide.

[–]jailhousebrew[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

But she did do it. Was it a crime?

[–]fia_buiVoluntaryist -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As in is it illegal where the lives? Presumably, given the police response.

As in, should this be considered a crime? Assuming she has other options, then yes.

I can imagine a situation where this might be somewhat justified:

  • She can't afford to keep supporting him

  • There is no legal abandonment option available

  • Any attempt to simply stop supporting her son would result in hefty punishment

[–]of_ice_and_rockit would be its own pregnancy, give birth to its own god -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Even in an ancap system, it probably would be a crime to not at least put the kid up for adoption.

I don't see how that's a prohibitive cost, and one which justifies positive actions like placing the kid in the woods.

[–]jailhousebrew[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The guy is 21. What if no one wants to adopt a non-verbal adult quadriplegic?

[–]of_ice_and_rockit would be its own pregnancy, give birth to its own god 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Then, the society likely won't have any repercussions for abandonment, or if there somehow still are, parents in such scenarios will just devise cleverer methods of infanticide.

You kind of answer your own question there, by placing so restrictive of conditions.

[–]jailhousebrew[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I am referring to this particular case. I didn't set the conditions. They exist already.

[–]of_ice_and_rockit would be its own pregnancy, give birth to its own god 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So, then, do we know this:

no one wants to adopt a non-verbal adult quadriplegic

to be the case?

[–]jailhousebrew[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I suppose we do not know that that is the case but perhaps the mother of the man could not find someone to take him in. If she could, wouldn't she likely have done that? Is abandonment truly aggression?

[–]of_ice_and_rockit would be its own pregnancy, give birth to its own god 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What happens far more often is that the child just stays with the parent that didn't want them, and they go through two decades of being treated badly.

It's manifestation #3,782 in 'criminalization unintentionally hurting those we didn't want to', like prostitution, where women have to deal with abusive clients, abusive pimps, and poorly regulated disease transmission.

[–]repmackRepmackian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

What the fuck!? You just copy pasted issue X into top and bottom lines. Boiler plate arguments don't work in every instance.

What is a black market in child abandonment? How is abandoning your child a market?

It makes much more sense to just make child abandonment illegal.

[–]of_ice_and_rockit would be its own pregnancy, give birth to its own god 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It makes much more sense to just make child abandonment illegal.

I disagree. I recommend looking at my comment to GTnicholas.

We both can probably agree that a parent wanting to abandon their child is an exceedingly rare phenomenon, but when it happens, it's important to quickly find a guardian that will actually function as a good caretaker and role model.

[–]snex00 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

What is a black market in child abandonment?

Sex slavery. Ever heard of it?

How is abandoning your child a market?

Person A wants to abandon his child. Person B wants a child. Hey look, a market!

It makes much more sense to just make child abandonment illegal.

Until you realize that in order to "make" things illegal, you must first cede such authority to some person or organization. And then you'll realize that, oh shit, their opinions of what should be illegal differ from yours!

[–]repmackRepmackian 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sex slavery. Ever heard of it?

Yes I have and that isn't a market for child abandonment. That's a market for sex and child trafficking. I was going to mention that in my above comment to hedge against this, but I thought you'd understand the difference. I was wrong.

Person A wants to abandon his child. Person B wants a child. Hey look, a market!

That's called adoption. We have that now too. Yet some idiots still feel the need to abandon their children.

Until you realize that in order to "make" things illegal, you must first cede such authority to some person or organization. And then you'll realize that, oh shit, their opinions of what should be illegal differ from yours!

What? You don't think there wouldn't be laws in ancapistan? Like say against stealing or murder? Well I don't want to live in your utopia.

[–]fia_buiVoluntaryist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Sex slavery. Ever heard of it?

Yes. It's a moral panic which doesn't really exist on any notable scale.

[–]ProlierThanThouInsurrecto-Anarcho-Communist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

4.5 Million(+) people isn't noticeable?

[–]fia_buiVoluntaryist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Not if they don't exist, or are actually migrant workers who have been reclassified for scoring political points.

[–]ProlierThanThouInsurrecto-Anarcho-Communist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Except they do exist, and this is a well-documented phenomena. http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---ed_norm/---declaration/documents/publication/wcms_181953.pdf

[–]fia_buiVoluntaryist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yes, there's several orgnisations who's existence is dependent on promoting the perception of a burgeoning worldwide trade in sex slavery.

[–]ProlierThanThouInsurrecto-Anarcho-Communist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Perhaps because there are people like you who deny this even goes on?

[–]fia_buiVoluntaryist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not interested in kafkatrapping thank you. I've seen very little independently verifiable evidence that this exists, and plenty to suggest that it's the latest version of "satanic cults kidnapping children for human sacrafices." Until that changes I'm going to keep going with the evidence, which says that your figures are overstated to say the least.