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Please Read ThisPlease stop diagnosing people (self.GamerGhazi)

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[–]BillMurrayLives 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (67子コメント)

This probably sprang from our earlier conversation, and my apologies if I touched a nerve, but really when someone says someone is sociopathic or shows sociopathic tendencies it's more trying to make sense of their otherwise thoughtless or emotionally destructive behavior than anything else. And really are words like "manchildren" and "neck beard" better? These are all insults, hurled to genuinely cause distress.

[–]IHadBlackSocksOn 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (47子コメント)

but really when someone says someone is sociopathic or shows sociopathic tendencies it's more trying to make sense of their otherwise thoughtless or emotionally destructive behavior than anything else.

And while their intent is innocent, it's important to understand that this ends up creating mental illness as the go-to explanation for bad behavior, when in reality, a lot of people with a lot of different mental illnesses manage to live their lives while being perfectly personable human beings. And a lot of neurotypical people are just plain not nice folks.

[–]OneJobToRuleThemAllReporter of ableist Ghazelles. 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

More importantly, it creates an environment where people with mental health issues regularly deny their problems before themselves (I remember crying in my mother arms, saying "I'm not sick" before coming to terms with it), are too scared to talk to their family and friends (which is essential in dealing with mental health issues), and ultimately, don't seek therapy.

[–]BillMurrayLives 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (45子コメント)

That's true, but it should be noted that calling someone a sociopath or bipolar isn't as often as say calling someone an asshole or something. I agree words like sociopath are loaded with a bunch of meaning behind them (both the meaning the person saying it is putting into it and the person hearing it) but really, at the end of the day, the point really is where does the line draw? Calling someone stupid or an idiot also seems harmless, but there are people who actually struggle with lower intelligence (a mental issue and a can of worms I don't want to open right) but the implication is there. Being less than smart is bad, you bad for being stupid, you know.

[–]pixelotlThe Pupycat of Ethics 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (15子コメント)

When you call something an asshole, you are pointing at their visible behaviour, when you are calling them a sociopath, you are making assumptions about a condition they might or might not have.

[–]BillMurrayLives 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'm not sure about the assumptions bit, as it's really just another insult being used, rather than an attempt at a diagnosis. I think when someone calls someone a sociopath, they're going what they premiere is above and beyond just being a regular asshole.

[–]pixelotlThe Pupycat of Ethics 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Yes, but not every asshole is a sociopath, and not every sociopath is an asshole.

[–]BillMurrayLives -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Right, unfortunately those words are interchangeable between one another.

[–]PlexFlexicoProfessional Sock Preparer, 1st Class. 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

No, they are not. You are being asked, very politely, to think about the language you use and why it is hurtful.

You are being asked, politely, to take some time and think about why your choice of words perpetuates harm.

All you seem to be able to come up with as a response is that you're not interested in choosing a better, more accurate and less harmful word because using those hurtful terms is simply "the way it is" and you can't be bothered to empathize or open a dictionary.

That's not a good response. That's just being lazy and lacking empathy.

[–]BillMurrayLives 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Yes they are, in the context of insulting someone. I don't honestly believe that people calling someone crazy or something means they're making or attempting to make an expertly crafted diagnosis of the person they're talking about, at least when someone is arguing or insulting another person. They're just trying to hurt another's feelings.

And make no mistake, you can go as far back into my comment history as you'd like and you'll find I have called a single person anything, so I'd appreciate that you make that distinction. My point and my only point is that standing back and saying "saying such and such is wrong and you should stop" while saying other insults and picking and choosing what words are better than others seems like a bad idea.

[–]PlexFlexicoProfessional Sock Preparer, 1st Class. -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm getting the feeling you're just spoiling for a fight here.

You're only being asked to consider your words and how they impact others.

Try to do this.

[–]OneJobToRuleThemAllReporter of ableist Ghazelles. -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't honestly believe that people calling someone crazy or something means they're making or attempting to make an expertly crafted diagnosis of the person they're talking about, at least when someone is arguing or insulting another person. They're just trying to hurt another's feelings.

That's a spot on analysis for most cases. But it's the wrong analysis, you need to analyze the effect it has on those with mental health issues and how it contributes to the stigmatization of mental health issues.

To put it simple, yet brutal: very few people have committed suicide because they were called an asshole. A lot of people have committed suicide over being called a combination of freak, mental, nutjob, psycho, crazy etc. There's obviously a difference in the words themselves and a different culture surrounding them. Asshole is as related to sociopath as it is related to faggot. Sociopath and faggot are deeply related on the other hand, as they're also used to systematically abuse certain groups of people.

[–]eiyukabe -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

When you call something an asshole, you are pointing at their visible behaviour

Same for "idiot", which is not a clinical term.

[–]OneJobToRuleThemAllReporter of ableist Ghazelles. 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

but really, at the end of the day, the point really is where does the line draw?

Exactly at that point: idiot is on the fringe. You can say idiot, but making a slow effort to use other words when you notice it will lead you to be more aware of and empathetic to mental health issues. It's very hard to eliminate completely (haven't done so myself, my tongue still slips), but you can make a good effort by substituting it for something else whenever you notice you wrote it. It's not something that needs to be policed, but it's good to be aware of, it makes you think about what you say. Crazy is a similar case, you're not going to eliminate that from your vocabulary that easily. But an effort to keep it minimum and not to apply it to people who actually are "crazy" is appreciated.

Contemporany and past diagnoses should never be used as insults. That's hurtful to me, to many other people here, and contributes to the stigmatization that leads to suicide, murder and general agony. That's how I draw the line and I'm quite confident you can draw your own line with that in mind. It's your responsibility to be aware of your neurotypical privilege, we can't do that for you or force you to.

[–]KanedoSpooky Skeletonist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Contemporany and past diagnoses should never be used as insults.

Following that logic wouldn't terms in -phobia (ie transphobia, homophobia,etc) be ableist as well ?

[–]OneJobToRuleThemAllReporter of ableist Ghazelles. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The key word is as insults. You probably shouldn't self describe as phobic if you clearly aren't, but there is no inherent problem with the terms transphobia, homophobia, xenophobia or islamophobia, as they fit the description of phobia and are well accepted technical terms. Phobia is just greek for fear and sociology has as much claim to the term as psychology. And it's really no problem, as they don't really overlap and context makes it pretty clear what is meant.

[–]eiyukabe -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So it's okay to arm chair diagnose phobias when they apply to your political enemies...? Who are you to say someone is "irrationally afraid" of transgendered people and not simply bigoted, or even rationally afraid of them?

[–]tries_to_explain -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If someone has an irrational fear of same-sex couples, has panic attacks upon seeing them, and acknowledges that that fear is irrational, then that's unfortunate and I wish them the best in dealing with their problem. Likewise for such a reaction to transgender people.

If someone discriminates against same-sex couples or people whose gender doesn't match the one initially prescribed for them, exhibiting hatred or contempt rather than fear, I hope they change their minds, and in the meantime I don't feel particularly charitable toward them.

We generally view discriminatory biases as a matter of personal responsibility and acknowledged irrational fears as a clinical matter. It is a quirk of language that we happen to use the same affix for some discriminatory biases as for irrational fears. While these quirks can provide amusement, they don't help us determine how to behave in the real world.

[–]BillMurrayLives -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Contemporany and past diagnoses should never be used as insults. That's hurtful to me, to many other people here, and contributes to the stigmatization that leads to suicide, murder and general agony. That's how I draw the line and I'm quite confident you can draw your own line with that in mind. It's your responsibility to be aware of your neurotypical privilege, we can't do that for you or force you to.

Absolutely, really when I get at "the line" I really was wondering why some insults are acceptable over others, when really insulting anyone is purposefully causing or attempting to cause mental and emotional anguish. I don't use slurs or whatever (generally I refrain from insulting people outside of good natured ribbing) but its an observation I made (outside of GG and something I've noticed as a whole).

[–]IHadBlackSocksOn -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (22子コメント)

Where you draw the line is up to you. I would just say that you (general "you", I don't mean you personally) should try to be understanding when someone tries to explain why what you've said is hurtful to them. And then examine whether it was your intention to hurt them.

[–]othellothewiseВоин социальной справедливости СССР☭ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Where you draw the line is up to you.

I agree with this so much. It's annoying when people use the slippery slope or "where do we draw the line" argument when discussing ableism. Like -- no one is trying to draw any lines on what is or isn't acceptable. We're just trying to ask people to be considerate and think things through first.

[–]BillMurrayLives 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Oh yeah, I agree with that but there is something to be said about being offended by these things too, no? We should understand that what we say May have unintended consequences and effects on others, but I think we also understand why these words have these effects and why these words can disrupt our emotions so much.

[–]Tzer-O -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

something to be said about being offended by these things too, no?

There is a rather large difference between being offended by something someone says and experiencing emotional or mental anguish because of something someone says. Someone calling another person an asshole is being offensive. Someone using a pejorative or derogatory term against someone is potentially causing that person harm.

[–]BillMurrayLives 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I absolutely understand the difference between the two, and respect that for some it's difficult to hear or read those words, but my point was that the word crazy is fairly ubiquitous and was just offering my thoughts one coming across what really is an incredibly common word used from everything (from describing a person in either positive or negative, to selling baseball tickets, etc) and was wondering where exactly the line of logic followed.

[–]Tzer-O 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Certainly it is a common word but the context of when and how it is used matters. And when there are a wide variety of other descriptive words people can apply to others, words that don't necessarily have as much of or any social stigma attached to them, well it makes sense to prefer those words over something like crazy.

[–]IHadBlackSocksOn -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I don't understand what you're saying.

[–]eiyukabe -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

And then examine whether it was your intention to hurt them.

Is it safe to say that someone finding something you said hurtful is responsible for examining your intentions as well?

[–]shillaway_account -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is my sentiment too. I personally make an effort to use as inoffensive language as possible but I'm not perfect. I also highly doubt anyone here is intentionally trying to hurt others. I feel like both parties should make an effort to avoid using hurtful language as well as not be so quick to put someone on blast.

[–]IHadBlackSocksOn -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Based on your posts elsewhere in this thread, I am not interested in your JAQing off. Run along.

[–]eiyukabe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Speaking of "elsewhere", didn't you get a thread deleted for toxicity on this post? I don't think I should waste my time talking here then as it is likely to blow up into flames.

[–]DeltaXYZILLUMINATI △ SHILL[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Neckbeard, is body shaming, so that's another issue I have.

Manchildren is probably not good. Haven't thought a lot about it.

Also this wasn't from you, but it was because of that thread.

[–]nighthawk00Social Justice Inquisitor 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Manchild is infantilizing and really shouldn't be used either

[–]gavinbrindstarRainbutt Six operative 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, because gamergators act like infants.

[–]Gaylen -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Infatilizing based on what, though?

Women are often infantilized because of stereotypes that women aren't as smart or are less emotionally stable. That's what makes it a problem. It's a part of a pattern to justify treating us as 'less than.'

How would something like that be applicable here?

[–]BillMurrayLives 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Seems like GG isn't exactly the ideal situation considering its a fairly vitriolic environment.

[–]FishAndBone -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

People talk a lot about how there's no gendered insults against men*

Neckbeard, manchild, and so on (though especially basement dweller and neckbeard) are gendered insults used to describe men who don't live up to society's standards for masculinity. They're as close to "misandry" as you can get without buying into the misandric TRP "Betamale" thing.

*edit: clarity on equivalence

[–]die_civ_scum -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

They are also words that do a great job of describing the average gamergater, in mindset and appearance, so they are too good not to use.

[–]fckingmiraclesThe Game. You lost it. 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed.

[–]Gaylen -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

are gendered insults used to describe men who don't live up to society's standards for masculinity

No, that's still "bitch." And "pussy." And "like a girl." And "f*g." It's still misogyny. It's policing men for being too much like the "inferior" gender.

Nothing about "neckbeard" is about masculinity. Its about being too lazy to keep a beard trimmed. There are no societal pressures on beards aside from hygiene. Women who leave the house unkempt are sneered at, too.

And tell me about the history of oppression men have faced while being called "manchild." Blocked from voting? Legally considered property? Sold off into forced marriages as children? Medical experimentation?

I don't think it even has a history as a term for slowed mental development. It was just a synonym for boy.

You really wanna try to compare it to the language used as a part of systematic oppression spanning centuries? You really wanna try elevating these words to the level of the n-word?

Cause as a women in a marriage to a transwoman while also suffering from longterm mental illness, I'm gonna have to ask you to seriously reconsider the weight that comes with deeming a word a "slur."

[–]poopteaseSuper Jacked Wrestler 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't see anywhere in their post where they actually tried to equate those words to "bitch" et al in terms of their harm and institutional weight, merely that both are based on gender, which is true.

I agree with you that "misandry" is a misnomer in this case, but I think we can all agree that terms like neckbeard and basement dweller can be often honestly associated with attempts to body shame and bully, which, while in the context of reality aren't as pressing as concerns of systemic oppression, are still the types of things social justice advocates should avoid, if for nothing else to appear intellectually consistent.

I think that was general throughline of the thread, at least, not an honest attempt to equate them in seriousness to racism or sexism.

[–]Gaylen 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

OP literally said "equivalent." They said people claim there is no equivalent to gendered slurs that have been used as a part of the oppression of women. Then he offered suggestions.

[–]FishAndBone 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey, Gaylen. You're right that "equivalent" was a misnomer, but pooptease is correct in that I am not equivocating the impact or meaning of derision, just that there is a feminist meme that there are no gendered insults against men. I feel like you extrapolated the meaning of what I said and made the argument that "neckbeard" = "oppression" and a lack of ability to vote. This is not what I was saying. I also never said the word "slur", I said "insult." I used "misandry" in quotations because it is not actually misandry, just that it is a gendered insult towards men.

[–]FishAndBone 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Misandry was in scarequotes for a reason, since I don't believe actual misandry exists. You're right that I was not trying to equate them in seriousness to racism or sexism, and I never used the word "slur", mostly that there are words in SJ circles that people use which reenforce toxic masculinity and rape culture without realizing it.

[–]ghazi_throwaway1 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Telling a person "you're a man who acts like a child" or "you should shave your neck because your beard makes you look like a slob" are about as tame as insults can get. If we're talking about making these verboten and classifying them at the same level as ableist slurs, we may want to reevaluate whether we really want to post on a subreddit dedicated to mockery in the first place.

[–]tries_to_explain 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

when someone says someone is sociopathic or shows sociopathic tendencies it's more trying to make sense of their otherwise thoughtless or emotionally destructive behavior

So you're trying to diagnose someone with a mental disorder in order to understand their behavior. Does it actually help? There aren't any well-vetted treatments for psychopathy or sociopathy, and even if there were, you aren't going to go out and make the person in question your patient. You probably don't even have the necessary credentials to do so, even if the person were willing.

Probably you're going to argue with that person or do something to attempt to change their behavior. You want to know what techniques you can use. Specifically, if you're talking about sociopathy or psychopathy, the person you're talking about is low on empathy, so you'll want to avoid that sort of argument or motivation. But before you could issue a diagnosis of sociopathy, you must have observed a lack of empathy. So by insisting on diagnosing sociopathy first, you're just making more work for yourself.

And really are words like "manchildren" and "neck beard" better? These are all insults, hurled to genuinely cause distress.

I don't use these terms to people's faces. I use "manchild" as a shortcut for saying privately to a friend: "This person is an adult, but they display little maturity and a lot of entitlement. They also tend to whine, like a toddler. They were probably able to survive this long with this mentality because of male privilege and the associated benefits." Naturally, making those observations in a blunt manner to a person's face is unlikely to change their behavior for the better.

As for "neckbeard", I use the term "fedora" instead, with similar restrictions.

[–]eiyukabe -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

And really are words like "manchildren" and "neck beard" better?

Excellent point. I brought up a similar point in another thread when someone made a long post that a mod asked them to remove ableism from before posting. But it still had what could be considered classism (or ableism in the form of stunted development) with snark like "basement dweller" and other things I can't remember right now. The point being: why are we cherry picking some insults to be offended about but not others? Ultimately, maybe we shouldn't insult people at all (it is hard to argue against this as an ideal), but we all seem to feel the need to do so from time to time. What makes certain insults like "basement dweller" okay enough to be mod approved but, say, "idiot" not?

[–]BillMurrayLives 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally, calling someone an asshole is fine, it's a more aggressive way of calling someone a jerk, but that's really where it should stop if people wish to uphold a certain standard of language, otherwise it comes off a bit hypocritical.