全 55 件のコメント

[–]oskomena 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not sure why people are losing their shit over this but I think you can do more than one kind of activism, and in fact think that having a variety of approaches can actually be better than just one. Depending on the cause, reassuring each other of mutual beliefs is useful – especially if you're young, or if you're isolated, or if you need to bargain as a collective. Conservatives have an easier task in that they generally just want to keep things as they are, especially on social issues, while liberals are proposing new approaches and sometimes needing validation is part of that.

I agree that effectively lobbying of the government shouldn't be neglected though, and I appreciate his perspective. Sometimes you do need to be political even if it's not as satisfying. You will unavoidably live in a society made up of lots of people that disagree with you.

[–]MySilverWhining[S] 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Personally, up until now I have always ignored the "click here to send a message to congress" pleas I get in my inbox, on the theory that my elected representatives already basically know what my political opinions are from my zip code and other demographic information. Politicians have much more scientific ways of knowing what the voting electorate thinks, and they wouldn't let their impression to be skewed by some eccentric minority that likes talking to the round file, right?

So reading this was a big jolt, and I'm definitely changing my behavior now.

What Frank says about other forms of political involvement doesn't shock me. I've always had the feeling that the rare in-person work I've done has really been for myself, not for the sake of a cause. I do it to get out of the house, meet people, and launder my karma. Maybe that last part is an illusion, but whatever, I'll take it.

[–]arjun10 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

"Frank's Rule" seems to rely on a false dichotomy: that the two strategies of grassroots organizing are either 1) holding public demonstrations and rallies, and 2) writing to your elected representatives.

I'll put forward the argument that both of these strategies are dead-ends; or at least, they ask the wrong questions. Both strategies assume the legitimacy of our current political institutions and assume that government policies respond to ideas, rather than changing power relations. I'm not saying don't hold rallies or write/call your officials. They both have positive benefits. But if that's all you're doing, that there is a serious lack of understanding and reflection at hand.

I'm in favor of what could be called "direct action"--directly getting what you and/or your community needs. This could be in the form of disruption (blockading a police station, collective expropriation of a warehouse) or mutual aid (starting a local farm or health clinic). This kind of stuff is much harder work, but I believe this is absolutely the necessary type of action that is needed to actually build popular power, and develop alternative/dual political and economic systems that are controlled by the people who our status quo systems marginalize and repress.

[–]1egator [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

mutual aid (starting a local farm or health clinic)... I believe this is absolutely the necessary type of action that is needed to actually build popular power, and develop alternative/dual political and economic systems that are controlled by the people who our status quo systems marginalize and repress.

This confuses me. Local farms and health clinics are part of "the system". They follow government regulations, integrate into pre-existing communities, and participate in the capitalist economy. Wouldn't that be "changing the system from the inside" again? I can't imagine how these would exist outside "the system" unless they exist as something very unusual like a radical local farm or a Robin Hood health clinic.

[–]RockDrill 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A lot of people have families to support which means they don't have the spare time to work in a clinic or the ability to risk being arrested. Relying on representatives is all they have.

[–]ModestMaoist 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hm yes, why don't the oppressed just ask their oppressors to treat them nicely?

[–][削除されました]  (39子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]Aethelric 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (18子コメント)

    Note that this is /r/SRSDiscussion. Elaborate, please.

    [–]George_Washington23 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (17子コメント)

    He's saying that one of the only actually effective methods of bringing about social change (i.e. organizing people and taking action) is ineffective and that begging your "representative" to stop supporting the capitalist, imperialist, patriarchal system they are a part of is more effective. It's completely ridiculous.

    [–]hajagsz 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (16子コメント)

    Wow great argument noobtron, you really convinced me with those hot opinions

    (Because OWS and the Black Lives Matter protests were SO effective and working within the system to help LGBT people has accomplished literally nothing right)

    [–]greenduch[M] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Cut it out with the pointless personal attacks. Jesus, everyone is escalating right out of the gate on this one.

    Also you are absurdly obtuse if you think Black Lives Matter has done nothing to raise visibility of issues.

    [–]oskomena 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I'm not sure what it is about the topic that seems to be so inflammatory. What a weird thread.

    [–]Im_on_a_mobile 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think it's because it doesn't have a ton of jargon and it's laid out pretty simply. It's much more accessible so more people than usual are willing to put in the effort to comment, and those that are commenting haven't been forced to think as much about the topic (maybe they have thought a lot, it just doesn't seem like a prerequisite). When you spend more time on someone else's opinion I suspect that you're less openly rude and dismissive.

    [–]FaceofMoe 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I agree that personal attacks in this forum are counter productive and wrong. But doesn't it follow then that you might not want to call someone "absurdly obtuse"?

    [–]greenduch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think theres a significant difference between calling someone obtuse and "great argument noobtron", but point taken.

    [–]sorryaboutthescabies 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    BLM has raised visibility of the issues it raised but really that is about it. BLM was good at stirring controversy in the media but it has done practically jack shit on a governmental level.

    [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

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      [–]Heidegger 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      They're right. There hasn't been a successful major protest movement in the USA in the past 30 years. Politicians aren't capital; they don't necessarily do what's worse for the working class in every single situation. They're human beings who serve capital according to a particular style and personal interests. The relative ineffectiveness of pestering your congressional representatives does not follow from the fact (apparently recently discovered by you) that "representatives" in a bourgeois democracy don't really represent the people.

      [–]Billy_Whiskers [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

      They're right. There hasn't been a successful major protest movement in the USA in the past 30 years.

      Well, on the left. I think the Tea Party and some religious groups have made progress in their causes - all those churches supporting Prop 8 in California, or people in backwaters protesting their school district teaching comprehensive sex education.

      [–]George_Washington23 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      There hasn't been a successful major protest movement in the USA in the past 30 years.

      You're right, striking has never achieved significant benefits for working people, and people taking direct action have never accomplished anything.

      [–]Heidegger 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      That's obviously not what I said. But the strike form of protest (as well as other forms of public protest) have been legislated against so they are no longer effective. Marx said it can take years and even decades of organizing and building class consciousness before a movement can succeed.

      [–]greenduch[M] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Your comment is removed for not adding anything to the conversation. We require top-level comments in disco to at least say something more substantial than "thats dumb shit".

      [–]MySilverWhining[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (16子コメント)

      It's coming from a thirty-year member of Congress who consistently advocated for liberal causes including LGBT issues, so he does have some credibility on this issue. He brings this point up in the context of trying to get support from other lawmakers in the battle over the status of gay service members.

      [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]fruitydurruti 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

        "[...]After years of pleading with allies to favor the first course over the second, I formulated a rule: If you care deeply about an issue, and are engaged in group activity on its behalf that is fun and inspiring and heightens your sense of solidarity with others, you are almost certainly not doing your cause any good."

        honestly this is tripe, and it leads to this weird type of party/cause/movement before self vibe that ironically seems to plague anarchist groups especially. if the language that defines your movement is full of self sacrifice or for the greater good then it's liberal nonsense.

        “People are tired of meetings, the classics, pointless marches, theoretical discussions that split hairs in four; endless distinctions, the monotony and poverty of certain political analyses. They prefer to make love, smoke, listen to music, go for walks, sleep, laugh, play, kill policemen, lame journalists, kill judges, blow up barracks. Anathema! The struggle is only legitimate when it is comprehensible to the leaders of the revolution. Otherwise, there being a risk that the situation might get beyond their control, there must have been a provocation.”

        -Alfredo Bonanno