全 32 件のコメント

[–]EvanHarper[S] 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (14子コメント)

R1: His entire argument is based on a long and extremely weak chain of inferences. For example, he concludes from a single survey result regarding a single narrowly defined form of "encouragement" to enter STEM that "it's likely that this positive discrimination in favor of women in STEM plays a larger role than any negative discrimination against women[.]" He also does not seem to understand that "the actual psychological traits of men/women/individuals," as he calls them, are not simply given but are themselves heavily influenced by external factors. Finally he backs this up by claiming that anyone who disagrees must also believe, for logical consistency, that autism spectrum disorders are caused by gender discrimination. He bases this on a legitimate but controversial minority theory of autism and a healthy dose of circular reasoning.

[–]GentlemanGreen17 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

controversial minority theory of autism

Which legitimate theory now? Being more common in males or?

[–]freeogy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

He's referring to Extreme Male Brain. Essentially that autism is caused by fetuses getting jacked up on testosterone.

[–]ParanthropusBoisei -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Autism is partly caused by testosterone levels in the womb, and autism is in some ways an example of an extreme male brain (e.g. systemizing >>> empathizing), so therefore it is no surprise that a majority of children with autism are male. There are other factors involved in autism as well, probably including other androgen hormones, but probably also including factors that impair the neural development of a child's intuitive psychology/theory of mind which would severely impair their ability and drive to empathize.

[–]wcspaz 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Any sources for that?

[–]ParanthropusBoisei 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thank you for asking. I don't want to have to write a book just to back up my claims but I'll give some basic justification and then link you to some reading.

Autism is partly caused by testosterone levels in the womb

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17462645 (evidence is correlational but various other lines of corroborating evidence suggests it's partly causal)

autism is in some ways an example of an extreme male brain (e.g. systemizing >>> empathizing)

Autism is characterized by social impairment but it is also often accompanied by highly systemizing tendencies. There are other accompaniments of autism that aren't accounted for by this hypothesis, suggesting that it's incomplete.

a majority of children with autism are male

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_autism

There are other factors involved in autism as well, probably including other androgen hormones

Given that autism is much more prevalent in males, and for other reasons having to do with the relative gender differences depending on which traits are expressed and the known effects of other androgen hormones, it's probably the case that other androgen hormones play some role in autism.

probably also including factors that impair the neural development of a child's intuitive psychology/theory of mind

Since there is not enough information in the genome to specify the wiring of the entire brain, chance plays a role in neurodevelopment, including in the development of practically all neural disorders. Environmental factors can increase or decrease the chance of neural disorders developing in utero, including with autism.

Please read these to get an overview of the psychology of men and women (and humans generally) and the psychology of autism which will start to make a lot of sense of these claims:

http://polatulet.narod.ru/dvc/spbs/pinker_blankslate.html#ch_18

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathizing%E2%80%93systemizing_theory#Extreme_male_brain_theory_of_autism

[–]AppleSpicer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/badscience has now reached a polyp stage

[–]cuddles_the_destroye 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (15子コメント)

My university has a 50 50 gender split in the biomedical engineering department. Clearly the solution is to make all STEM Biomedical Engineering.

[–]EvanHarper[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (9子コメント)

No it's because men like working with things and women like working with people. clearly biomedical engineering calls on empathy not systematization

[–]mrgoodnighthairdo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't get that argument. People work with things, and so by working with things you would be working with people.

[–]cuddles_the_destroye 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

But what about all the menz in the field? Clearly it's about systemization. It's also engineering which is totes only for menz. All those women in BME are wierd.

[–]TheSpellingAsshole 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's spelled weird, you big shitbassoon.

[–]cuddles_the_destroye 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

tanks alot, m8.

:p

[–]TheSpellingAsshole 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Leave me alone you obtuse ponce

[–]cuddles_the_destroye 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You [le]terally started it :p

[–]TheSpellingAsshole 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Leave me alone you barbaric phallus

[–]ParanthropusBoisei -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

In your sarcastic reply to OP you managed to unintentionally butcher several facts in the process.

  1. About two-thirds of university students are female so a 50/50 split in a certain department is still disproportionately male, assuming that OP's university has typical enrollment numbers by gender.

  2. Men are more interested in things and rule systems, and women are more interested in people and living things, but only on average.

  3. Biomedical engineering is a subject involving living things and helping people, which women are more interested in on average, but it is also a discipline with underlying rule systems and objects so it also attracts more men who are more interested in rule systems and objects on average. Biomedical engineering is bound to attract both sexes but the exact numbers will depend on how heavily each factor attracts a particular proportion of each sex, among other factors. This would be extremely difficult to measure and calculate with precision, but suffice it to say that the numbers would not be anywhere close to 100-0 in favor of either sex for a field like biomedical engineering.

  4. Finally, even if biomedical engineering was based purely on empathy and not at all on socialization as you sarcastically suggested, that would cause female representation to go far higher than 50% (and also far higher than the ~67% or similar percentage of the university population that is female). We see this with fields like veterinary medicine which has a graduation rate of ~85%-90% female students, which should not be a surprise given that veterinary medicine is a field that is based highly in empathy for animals. Even the 5-10% of veterinarians who are male are more likely (not completely likely) to be involved in working with ugly, dirty, and massive animals like cows than with house pets.

[–]EvanHarper[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

bahahahaha

[–]ParanthropusBoisei -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Set aside the question of whether biomedical engineering is actually split 50/50 by gender for a second.

I want you ask you this: why exactly is the lack of a 50/50 gender split in a given field inherently a problem that needs a "solution"? You use phrase "clearly the solution is...." to imply that there is a problem, but you don't expand on why a lack of 50/50 in all STEM is inherently a problem. Care to clarify?

[–]cuddles_the_destroye 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I was making a joke. You can tell because my solution makes no sense. I mean seriously, having the only thing you can do in the STEM field be one specific subset of engineering? That's patently ridiculous.

But in all seriousness, a skewed gender representation in a field indicates that there may be some pressure or something on the less represented gender. I was talking with the dean of the college of engineering about this, the BME department has far and away way more women both in raw numbers and by ratio compared to the other engineering departments which is a statistical anamoly worth investigating. I'd like to have more people and women who want to be in engineering actually be in engineering and if there's a cultural issue preventing that it is worth investigating.

[–]ParanthropusBoisei 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But in all seriousness, a skewed gender representation in a field indicates that there may be some pressure or something on the less represented gender.

Is this something that needs to have evidence for it, or should it be taken on faith? It may mean that, but does it mean that? By the way, pressure on one gender may also exist without actually causing lower representation for that gender.

I was talking with the dean of the college of engineering about this, the BME department has far and away way more women both in raw numbers and by ratio compared to the other engineering departments which is a statistical anamoly worth investigating.

It has been investigated. As I mentioned elsewhere, the evidence suggests that women are more interested in living things/people (and helping people) than men, and this explains a significant proportion (probably a majority) of the difference. In this context specifically, men are more interested in abstract rule systems and working with objects than women which explains the general engineering trend, and the addition of biology and healthcare makes it relatively more attractive to women.

The only question now is whether you are willing to take the results of these investigations at face value or if you were only interested in the "pressure" conclusion to begin with. If you'd like me to give you sources for all of this then I am more than willing to do that.

P.S. There is evidence that women face pressure in STEM in Western countries but it's pressure for them to study STEM coming from their family and mentors. When these women switch out of STEM they tend to describe their original choice as a pressured one and tend to cite a lack of interest or a greater interest in another subject as the reason for switching.

[–]cuddles_the_destroye 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's...not what the dean of engineering said. If the dean of engineering feels the need to investigate this disparity in terms of gender I will trust his judgement. And besides, you can argue easily that the rest of engineering is about helping people. Biomedical engineering is an amalgamation of the other engineering fields (most of the department professors are engineers in other fields), and is very much an abstract field men allegedly like so much and women allegedly dislike. Nothing in the field has you actually directly go and help people in a manner like healthcare. You design objects and drugs to assist healthcare providers. And in addition, there are a lot of women who like being in the college of biological sciences, which is fairly STEM and has a lot of abstraction too. Microbiology and biological chemistry seem to be popular for women, and that hardly is about working with people. The hypothesises you have don't hold up in practice and to claim otherwise is a bit disingenuous. The hypothesis of the College of Engineering of my university concerning this field is because of its relative infancy and as such lacks a systemic pressure against women. Biomedical Engineering is as Engineer-y as Mechanical and Electrical and Chemical Engineering, incorporating all the math and science that one needs in those fields, and the work you do as an actual healthcare provider is functionally nonexistent. To call it less abstract or object-oriented shows that you lack a proper understanding of what Biomedical Engineering actually is.

[–]ParanthropusBoisei 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please pay attention to the actual words I have been using. I have tried to be very careful to not use any absolute statements because they would be misleading and incorrect, but you seemed to have ignored that completely and instead read into my words what you wanted to disagree with. I have stuck completely to terms like "more", "less", "more interested" and "less interested", "on average", etc. to describe men and women because all of these are statistical phenomena that can't be described accurately with absolute statements.

Let me just reject the things you think I'm implying and then I will substitute it with the statistically accurate alternative.

And besides, you can argue easily that the rest of engineering is about helping people

Practically everything is about helping people in some way, but healthcare/biology is more about helping living things/people than regular engineering. (There's also the separate interest in interacting with living things/people vs. objects that applies here.)

Biomedical engineering is an amalgamation of the other engineering fields (most of the department professors are engineers in other fields), and is very much an abstract field men allegedly like so much and women allegedly dislike.

Biomedical engineering is less abstract than other engineering fields such as electrical engineering because it involves more practical concerns involved in medicine. Also, I never said that women "dislike" anything. I said men are more interested in abstract rule systems. That doesn't mean that women aren't interested in them.

And in addition, there are a lot of women who like being in the college of biological sciences, which is fairly STEM and has a lot of abstraction too. Microbiology and biological chemistry seem to be popular for women, and that hardly is about working with people.

Again, biology is less abstract than engineering. Women are more interested in working with living things.

Nothing in the field has you actually directly go and help people in a manner like healthcare. You design objects and drugs to assist healthcare providers.

You probably don't know this, but when people pick their career tracks they often consider what the functional value of their work is going to be and it is an important factor for them. When women and men describe what's important to them for their career choices, "helping people" is described more often by women than men. It is therefore no surprise that there would be a greater proportion of women in biomedical engineering compared to electrical engineering, for example.

[–]Das_Mime[M] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

In the future, remember np links

[–]EvanHarper[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

sry