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[–]SkoalVikings -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (66子コメント)

[–]Greg_Roberts_0985[S] 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (5子コメント)

http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

This does not debunk anything, it is trying and failing to make the case thermite could not have been used, it does not attempt to disprove the enormous amount of evidence that there was molten iron and steel at all three collapse sites.

Why the buildings fell

http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/tower.html

Again, this explains nothing, it simply does a NIST and says fires, so building fell through itself at very near freefall, please believe us that this theory is correct, while offering no evidence at all to the world.

[–]ChangedMyLyfe -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (56子コメント)

Do you really believe these lies?

[–]Velvet_Llama 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (20子コメント)

I do. Despite almost 15 years now of hearing a litany of conspiracy theories I have never seen anything that provides a better explanation of what happened than some butt hurt Saudis turning passenger planes into cruise missiles.

[–]ChangedMyLyfe 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Really? 15 years of listening to stories, watching video, hearing expert testimony and all it did was make you believe that what really happened was a dozen untrained men with box cutters did this? All the while the Airforce, Marines, and Army are all practicing a simulation of that exact scenario on that exact day. That alone is enough for a lot of people. But then building 7? The pentagon? C'mon, look at the first images of the pentagon. There was no jumbo jet that slammed into it. Then add to the fact that in the history of humanity, more importantly since the iron ages forward has there ever been a total collapse of a steel framed building due to fire. NOT ONE TIME. And check it out, there's some buildings in South America that burned for 14 days straight (something like that) and never collapsed. Yet in one day 3 of the most engineered, structurally designed with over redundancies, and drafted and tested so many times before they even broke ground shows that the twin towers were not only capable of being hit with a jumbo jet, but that they were actually designed, on purpose, to withstand such an attack.

Then the molten steel, the thermite dust everywhere, the horrible inconsistencies with new coverage, the missing frames of video from the impact of the second plane and the most damning piece of all.

We went to war over it and ended up in a Country next door instead. If this was Bin Laden, then we should be in Afganistan. But nope, we were right over into Iraq nearly the same day we invaded.

And that is why I'm pissed off and will argue this with a stranger. People are dying all over the world. Some from old age, disease, accidents, fires, and more. And yet we have no problem coming in and taking lives for nothing more than to see a number in a bank account grow (or lot's of bank accounts). Fight all you want if that's what you want. But don't destroy entire cultures because you can and want their resources.

So many amazing and beautiful and unique lives lost to us forever. I feel for them all. I'm not defending the actions of terrorism, I'm a stanch opponent to any violence.

But I'll be damned if an educated person actually spent 15 years hearing as many sides as possible and came to the conclusion that it was really a handful of miscreants armed with razor blades that were able to take over those planes and successfully maneuver them to hit their targets. I'm sorry you feel that way. I hope one day you'll realize that there is no way that happened on its own.

[–]Velvet_Llama -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Why is it so hard to believe that a bunch of dudes hijacked some planes and turned them into cruise missiles? And if you find that hard to believe, why are you so willing to believe an explanation that is vastly more complex?

Finally, I absolutely agree that the Bush administration used 9/11 as part of their bullshit justification for going to war in Iraq and it's still shameful that Americans (and I am American) let them do that. But that is extremely filmsy circumstantial evidence to point to the US government being behind 9/11. It doesn't even make sense as a false flag if your goal is to invade Iraq. Why use Al-Quieda as a patsy when Iraqi regime was seen as an enemy of Islam by Al_Quieda? It's pretty clear that the Bush administration cynically tried to manufacture some link between Iraq and al-Quieda (note the Bush administration did not to my knowledge blame Iraq for being behind 9/11) to get people to support an invasion- but that is not evidence that 9/11 was planned by the government.

Edit: Also remember, we didn't go into Iraq on practically the same day as we invaded Afghanistan, the invasion of Iraq took place two years after Afghanistan.

[–]ChangedMyLyfe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Thank you for your reply. I'm aware that my dates and numbers are not accurate in their exact meaning, but they paint the picture alright.

Why is it so hard to believe that a bunch of dudes hijacked some planes and turned them into cruise missiles? And if you find that hard to believe, why are you so willing to believe an explanation that is vastly more complex?

For one, I have a lot of training flying airplanes and helicopters. I am twin rated and usually fly a Citation 501 for a client. That's a small private jet, it's engines are powerful and it can easily cruise at 41,000 feet at around 400 knots. I've been privileged enough to get to play around in this and a few others like it. We've actually done barrel rolls, vertical climb to stall and recover, low altitude fly bys and more.

Watch the flight paths of the 911 planes. Some are plausible, some are downright ridiculous to think a Blue Angel Pilot could pull that off. These are big heavy planes full of fuel. They do not turn easy, their engines can't speed them or slow them quickly, and a slight down pitch in the nose wheel would easily cause airspeed to increase to a point they no longer had control. I honestly doubt that I would be able to do it, especially the pentagon.

Then there's this: we seem to know everything about these guys and everything I've heard says that they were, at most, beginner pilots, and only a few of them.

So it's plausible that they did this, but likely I would say not. I suggest you go out to Wichita, KS and book an hour or two on a 747 simulator. They can get ya wherever you want and then you can take over. I'd like to see how many times you can hit that building while going 700knots. Then try the pentagon using the same course we have on record. Then come back and tell me a dozen idiots were able to pull it off.

I agree with you about the rest and have no argument to why use Al-Quieda as our means to enter Iraq. I do know this though. If I see a pretty girl at a party and I'd like to get to know her, but she's surrounded, I'll do what I can to get as close as possible so I can have a chance at talking with her.

[–]Velvet_Llama -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So are you saying planes didn't hit the towers, or they were flown by someone else?

[–]ChangedMyLyfe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

From what I saw it looked like a plane hitting the 2nd tower. I didn't see the first one, so I can't speculate. But my main point is these were not just amateurs. Whoever flew those planes had thousands of hours in a cockpit. That's my main point. That or it was a combo of technology and humans, it just wasn't some monkeys with razor blades and 10 hours in a 152.

[–]Velvet_Llama -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well we know they trained for a long time, but yeah, I'd imagine it would be difficult to hit their targets but given long enough to properly line up the approach if you're familiar with the instrumentation and navigation, I absolutely believe amateurs with nothing more than flight lessons and time with a simulator could pull it off. Also remember the guys who tried to hit the Pentagon came up a bit short.

[–]MIBPJ -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think that you highlighted the very issue that /u/Velvet_Llama was alluding to: the odd observations are just that. They don't string together in any cogent narrative in the same way the official story does.

Okay, there was training operations that day.... What does that mean? The government perpetrated the attack and also planned for an operation to stop their own operation and did so on the very day of the attack to cast suspicion on themselves?

Okay, the collapse of WTC7 is a bit unique... what does that mean? Did the planners of this operation think that taking down four planes, two towers, and partially destroying the Pentagon wasn't enough to justify a war so they felt they needed to take down a building, not bother to hit it with another plane, kill exactly zero people doing so, and then make such a small deal of its destruction that most New Yorkers don't even know that it was part of the attack?

Your point about invading the wrong country also doesn't quite make sense. Okay, we invaded two countries from which none of the attackers originated... how does this fit with your narrative? If it was an attack planned and perpetrated by our government why wouldn't they just draw up a list of Iraqis and Afghanis instead of hoping that they could later make a tenuous case they these countries were somehow involved?

Tell me narrative that makes more sense than this: A group of fanatical Saudis highjacked a group of planes and crashed them into buildings, causing massive destruction of them. Some of the occurrences of that day were unique in history (like buildings collapsing due to fire) but it was a day full of unique occurrences (fully loaded passenger jets crashing into sky scrapers). Retrospective models have accounted for most if not all of these strange occurrences. The immediate response was to invade an easy target country as a near gut reaction to being attacked (the perpetrators were Saudi but we couldn't attack them because they are our ally so we instead attacked Afghanistan because the mastermind behind the attacks was purported to live there). During the year or two following the attack politicians who long wanted to invade Iraq for its oil wealth were able to take advantage of American anger and drum a case for war with Iraq. I would also like to add that I believe there were some major intelligence failures that could largely explain odd behavior both before (such as hints that government might have known something was in the works but failed to take it serious enough to act on) and after the attack (lack of transparency in the investigations of the attack).

Tell me a story that makes as much sense as that and explains as many of the observations and you may very well convince me. Also tell me which observations don't fit with my version of the events.

[–]9-ll 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Senator Max Cleland Resigned from the 9/11 Commission.

"One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up."

Source

So you're a 9/11 Faither Coincidence Theorist, /u/Velvet_Llama ?

[–]Strich-9 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

That's not evidence, that's a guy saying a thing

[–]9-ll 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's not a guy, that's a US Senator resigning from the 9/11 commission because of a cover-up

[–]Strich-9 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Still not evidence though. And "cover-up" is a bit silly. He said the white house wants to cover up the investigation, not that the US did 9/11. Very different but I can see how you really want to believe it.

The last thing I'm going to base my facts on is the opinion of a US Senator. Why don't we just ask Jon Boehner what he thinks about Benghazi while we're at it?

[–]Velvet_Llama -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Call it whatever you want.

[–]9-ll 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

So....Despite adjusting inputs to achieve the desired result, the NIST model does not come close to reproducing the observed collapse of WTC7...

This is also apparent by watching video animations of NIST’s model and comparing them to real footage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuyZJl9YleY

NIST will not release this model data for peer review. This makes their report fraudulent and the model invalid.

But you support it...

Call it whatever you want.

Ok, you're an accessory and apologist for terrorism.

[–]Strich-9 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

NIST has released their model to review to many, many different engineering groups, who all verified their findings. They don't release it to you because why would they? You'd just move to another out-of-context quote or talking point you got from youtube.

[–]9-ll 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

[–]Velvet_Llama -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Verified in a peer reviewed paper published in the flagship journal of the American Society of Civil Engineers: http://cedb.asce.org/cgi/WWWdisplay.cgi?286345

And as I was looking for this journal article I stumbled across this exellent reddit thread that provides a link to this paper as well as to a large volume of sworn testimony of experts verifying NIST's report as well as what appears to be several dozen additional peer reviewed papers endorsing NISTs methodology and verifying it's conclusions. Lots of reading if you're so inclined.

http://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/294k95/compilation_of_scientific_literature_that/

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[–]WTCMolybdenum4753 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A Discussion of "Analysis of Structural Response of WTC 7 to Fire and Sequential Failures Leading to Collapse"

the paper lacks references to public sources of information sufficient to verify the authors' assumptions and conclusions. For example, structural calculations demonstrating the "walk-off" failure mechanism that hypothetically triggered the progressive collapse are unavailable.

[–]Strich-9 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]WTCMolybdenum4753 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

2nd link.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Najib_Abboud/publications
Conference Paper: Anatomy of a Disaster: A structural Investigation of the World Trade Center Collpases Najib Nadim Abboud

From the abstract. >In each case (WTC1&2), once collapse was initiated, gravity propelled a downward pancaking of the structure.

Pancaking?? NIST said pancaking didn't happen.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.

http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/faqs_wtctowers.cfm

[–]3Try8 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

An actual source! Whoa! This is the ont worthwhile comment in this thread.

[–]caitdrum -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There's always some random hivemind-enforcer with no post history that comes in to immediately exclaim the validity of a debunking attempt, happens like clockwork.

It's also hilariously ironic that OP's post is extremely well sourced.

[–]9-ll 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you care about the government sourcing their conclusions as much as random users on reddit?