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Neil Gaiman and Trigger Warnings (self.SRSDiscussion)

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[–]LadyRavenEye 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (35子コメント)

This is so upsetting to me. Neil Gaiman is one of my favorite authors, and I have now lost so much respect for him.

Trigger warnings aren't just about keeping you from seeing things that might make you feel disturbed or anxious generally... they are for people who suffer from PTSD and other serious mental health issues! My friend recently went to see the movie Chappie. As per usual, she scoured the internet for potential triggering content. Finding nothing mentioned, she went to see the movie, which is essentially a two hour story about child abuse. She was triggered so badly she dissociated for half an hour in the middle of the movie. Can you imagine having that reaction because people can't be bothered to put a two second warning on a fucking movie??

What do we need to be warned about? We each have our little triggers.

Agh! I hate, hate, hate seeing needles go into skin, but seeing needles going into skin doesn't make me revert to behavior (be it dissociation, violence, extreme defensiveness, etc) that I needed to cope with the trauma of having needles stuck into me in the past. Being upset/mad/sad/anxious =/= being triggered, jfc.

I wonder, Are fictions safe places? And then I ask myself, Should they be safe places?

People that need trigger warnings aren't asking for safe places. They are asking for warnings that might save them actual physical and/or mental damage. We don't tell people with severe nut allergies "oh, the point of grocery stores isn't to be a safe place" we put fucking labels on things when they have nuts in them!

if I was going to read fiction, sometimes I would only know what my comfort zone was by leaving it

LEAVING YOUR COMFORT ZONE =/= RELIVING TRAUMA

(FIRST LINE) There are things that upset us. That's not quite what we're talking about here, though.

(FROM LAST PARAGRAPH) There are things in this book, as in life, that might upset you.

Interesting contradiction, Mr. Gaiman.

NOTE: I do not suffer from triggers myself. If we want to have a discussion about the over/underuse of triggers, I feel like that's a different discussion than this one.

[–]MySilverWhining 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Trigger warnings aren't just about keeping you from seeing things that might make you feel disturbed or anxious generally... they are for people who suffer from PTSD and other serious mental health issues!

If we want to have a discussion about the over/underuse of triggers, I feel like that's a different discussion than this one.

Unfortunately, this boat sailed a long time ago, and it's impossible to call it a different discussion. There are a lot of things I would agree to about "triggers" under your definition that I would never agree to given the way the word is actually used. If it was just a few things that needed to be labeled to prevent major traumatic experiences, meh, who could complain? But the floodgates have opened. The number of people who want in on this is pretty overwhelming, and nobody is willing to accept that their own mental health issue is less than "serious." There's no way to police the boundaries. If you read my comment below, you can see that my own "trigger" experiences are pretty minor and in no way meet your criteria, but someone went out of their way to make sure I labeled it a "trigger." Unfortunately, you can't persuade people to take something seriously when it's used so loosely. The idea of a "trigger" started serious, and now everyone and their dog has one.

We don't tell people with severe nut allergies "oh, the point of grocery stores isn't to be a safe place" we put fucking labels on things when they have nuts in them!

This is actually a great analogy, because a lot of people believe (or claim to believe) they have completely invented bullshit allergies. Luckily it's pretty easy to draw the line with allergies because you can't fake (or psychosomatically generate) life-threatening allergic reactions.

[–]MemeticParadigm 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This mirrors a lot of my feelings. The general meaning behind the term "trigger" used in this way has evolved rapidly as the idea of trigger warnings has become more widespread, and it's gone from referring to something specific, discrete, and extremely severe, to referring to a whole spectrum of negative reactions to content, and there's no general agreement on where/whether there's any sort of meaningful threshold on that spectrum.

[–]___Rhand___ 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think we can expect the authors we love to share our opinions on everything. GRRM despises fanfiction, and I disagree with him categorically on that front, but I still respect his work.

I think Gaiman's position probably comes from a place of ignorance...much like GRRM's position on the fanfiction matter.

[–]Nine_Line 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's interesting how easy it is to tell the people who have been professionally diagnosed with PTSD and are being treated from those who've self-diagnosed and are not once you're remotely familiar with the condition and its treatment.

[–]PissingBears 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm curious, could you explain further?

[–]aufhebendeNegatvtaet 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm nothing like an expert, simply happen to know people who are involved in this sort of activism + people with actual PTSD diagnoses. It's alluded to elsewhere in this thread, but for at least everyone I know, it's hard to get "triggered" by blocks of text on the internet. That's not to say that discussions of sexual violence, etc., can't be uncomfortable and even anxiety inducing, but they don't always rise to the level of an anxiety so overwhelming that is associated with PTSD. Rather, most people with PTSD are triggered by random associations, which tend to be sensory rather than intellectual--i.e. they're not "triggered" by grasping abstract concepts such as "violence against women."

An Iraq vet is a pretty stereotypical example here: they hear a crash of a cart at a Home Depot and immediately feel like they're in a combat zone. Yet the same person might be perfectly capable of giving a lecture at a university about combat and violence, etc. Another example is a friend who is triggered by the smell of fresh cut grass. This isn't the sort of thing you can adequately anticipate or what you would expect people to reasonably accommodate.

The implication being, people with self-PTSD diagnoses are likely to let you know about it and bring it up in situations where they're unlikely to be "triggered." Not that anxiety and depression aren't serious mental health issues, but it's worth keeping the diagnostic criteria separate for separate issues.

[–]PissingBears 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Ah I see, thank you for clearing that up

[–]LeRedditeurDe 29 ポイント30 ポイント  (19子コメント)

she went to see the movie, which is essentially a two hour story about child abuse

lol, maybe she should have watched the trailer or read a short summary

[–]soilbran 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Having issues myself with being easily triggered, I'd like to mention something I had read. A while back, a friend directed me to Andrew Sullivan's website, The Dish. More often than not it was a index of horrible trash. Remember, we're talking about the guy who argued with Ta-Nehisi Coates over whether we should at least "entertain in a non-racist way" The Bell Curve. So I say this as a disclaimer, to note that I do not necessarily agree with him in general, nor do I always trust his sources. This is a pre-emptive defense to prevent myself from being interpreted as an advocate for his opinions, as well as a request to take what I read with a grain of salt.

Anyways, the articles that my friend had directed me to, thinking it might be important to me, were on triggers. They featured a number of mental health professionals talking about how they think trigger warnings are unhealthy. The thesis of the anti-trigger warning position in both articles amounts to "trigger warnings are unhealthy because they reinforce PTSD". They explain that avoidance strengthens the debilitation that comes with PTSD, while being triggered frequently will desensitize victims. I haven't got around to reading enough about it, and so I do not have the solid grounds on which to dispute it. I found their position very troubling, because I tend to trust [some] mental health professionals, but I wouldn't know any better if they were talking out of their asses. Andrew Sullivan would probably be cherry-picking his sources for articles that agree with his presumably anti-trigger warning stance, and I have no information on the general political leanings or reputation of those two publications.

As of late it has been really on my mind, because I've been having panic attacks and disassociating frequently due to exposure to triggering stimuli. I'm just not sure what to make of it, and I hope that by bringing it up here maybe someone can shoot them down, or, alternatively, extract something useful from it.

[–]jennyroo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

In my personal dealings with PTSD, recovery is not something that is forced on you in general daily life. It is generally done with supervision, and with intent.

"I am working on recovery, I am purposefully and knowingly being exposed to triggering content in a safe space with supportive people in an effort to reduce dissociative symptoms."

No one that I personally know of (and I know more than a few people from my CPTSD group therapy) is expected by professionals to just go out into the world and deal with triggering content with no warning while they are trying to live their daily life.

On the other hand, none of us expected the world to be bubble-wrapped to protect us from unavoidable triggers like the smell of cut grass, we worked with our personal therapist 1:1 to come up with strategies to deal with encountering such things in our daily life, because frequently the solution prior to seeking out therapy was to never leave the house.

[–]soilbran 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks for responding! This is the information I need. I really want to get some therapy, because dang, it sounds like it can really help. Does the controlled space completely change how terrible triggering content can feel? I mean, how does one reduce dissociative symptoms when feelings triggered? What techniques in the safe space do they use?

[–]jennyroo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Therapy isn't a panacea, and I'm still struggling, but knowing there is a process and I am seeing measurable results, even if incremental, helps me trust in myself that I can get better.

Right now I have cheapo insurance through Kaiser-Permanente, an HMO, so its hard for me, based on my diagnosis (it took me almost 4 years to get the CPTSD diagnosis, they were just labeling it as anxiety and recurrent major depression for a long time), to get really intensive 1:1 work but some of my group friends also work with private therapists who do more of the heavy lifting. Group is helpful in that while our experiences are individual, there are many common threads. It makes you feel less alone.

Reduction techniques are taught in group and 1:1, grounding techniques like deep breathing and a regular meditation practice have been really useful to me. I've also sought out books and websites that deal with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and if I could afford going to a private therapist that specializes in CBT I would because I know some folks that find it very liberating.

From what I have heard, during 1:1 sessions your therapist walks you through triggering content, slowly introducing you to triggers and backing off when you get too overwhelmed. The idea is to not flood you, so you build up more resilient neural connections to break the intense fight-flight-freeze response. Like building a solid foundation, so you have the ability to deal with increasingly difficult content.

I feel I am rambling a bit. I'm dealing with Complex-PTSD, which is different from one-time trauma, so it may be different from what you are experiencing!

PM me if you ever want to talk!