全 56 件のコメント

[–]jackburtonme 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Since you haven't had any responses yet, a few suggestions from someone else who works in a smaller company:

A start could be emulating those larger companies by creating your own hiring policy. Bureaucracy and process are excellent tools for overcoming the implicit biases that we all carry around with us on a day-to-day basis, and work better than just resolving to be fair. This could include anonymizing applicants or creating scoring rubrics to use throughout the hiring process. Essentially, turn hiring into a data-driven process that focuses on aptitudes and omits information about ethnicity, gender, age, etc. Document everything, and hopefully you can crystallize a process that can be passed on to the person who comes after you.

You can also take active steps towards more creating diverse applicant pools. For eaxmple, advertise positions in places where women and people of color will see them, like online communities for women programmers. Make it clear in job postings that you welcome applicants from these groups.

Depending on the nature of your position, you might be serving as the "HR" of your compnay. If that's the case, make it clear to new hires that you're someone they can come to with issues of harassment or discrimination. Take it upon yourself to make that a part of your position.

Finally, you should try to let management know about your initiative. They probably won't mind someone taking the time to ensure fair hiring practices, and moreover might be willing to provide resources or support (training, letting you review this process with others who sit in on the hiring process to make sure they are informed, etc).

[–]Neil_DeSpace_Cosmos[S] [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

This is really great, thank yoU!

[–]PiscineCyclist [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

Essentially, turn hiring into a data-driven process that focuses on aptitudes and omits information about ethnicity, gender, age, etc.

This is key. Everything that isn't performance is a distraction. As soon as you try to show off how just you are by factoring in the other stuff, you run into moral hazards. Meritocracy will earn you no respect from the short-sighted, but in truth it is the only way for an employer to be inclusive.

[–]doyouknowBRD [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Where I'm from (Quebec, Canada) some companies and the government uses positive discrimination to hire people. The process is usually effective when hiring lots of people, so I son't know how this would do in your case. Some people like the concept, some people don't.

[–]Bonejob 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (23子コメント)

You are in an industry where you have little choice about who you hire. If you get a hundred resume's for a software developer 50% won't be able to pass a basic code test in any language, 40% will be ok programmers that can't work on schedule or meet demands. The last 10 percent will be broken down into people who think your pay rate is to low for their rockstar skills, a few others will not like the fact you don't use the language they are comfortable with. You may get one or two developers out of a hundred that fit your needs. So out of those one or two are you going to turn them down for they don't meet your idea of "Social Justice"?

I have hired hundreds of programmers, in most cases they tend to be liberal and more open to ideas than most. I dont think you are going to have a problem.

Oh and hire people by asking them to describe a project they are passionate about, not pass a detailed skill test. Hire them for Passion not "skills" the ones who love programming will server you company better than the ones who do it for a job becuase it pays well.

[–]Ahaon 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (22子コメント)

With all due respect, I really hate that last point. It's a job, who cares how much I enjoy it. I don't participate in wage labor because I really love to work, I do it because otherwise I'd starve to death. Don't ask me to pretend to be enthusiastic about my exploitation.

[–]Morbidgrass [スコア非表示]  (5子コメント)

I interview people and I certainly wouldn't hire someone who refers to the job they are applying for as exploitation.

[–]Ahaon [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

One tends not to mention one's leftist beliefs to the bourgeoisie and bourgeois-allies. Everyone has to eat.

But I'll mention your loyalty to the bosses.

[–]yellowmadgey [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

One tends not to mention one's leftist beliefs to the bourgeoisie and bourgeois-allies

Cesar Chavez, Asa Philip Randolph and Gus Hall would be very impressed with people who hold 'leftist beliefs' as proudly with as much principle as you do.

I guess talking about your leftist beliefs on reddit is good enough though, right?

[–]Ahaon [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

I should have clarified what I meant, I suppose, that was a very ambiguous statement.

Talking politics is for fence-sitters. We gain nothing debating those who actually own the means of production (the bourgeoisie) because they won't willingly surrender their choke-hold on society. We also gain nothing arguing with those who vehemently uphold the right to private property despite not owning any themselves (the bourgeois-allies).

I'll definitely talk politics in real life, but only where it's feasible that I could make some ground, and definitely not in a situation like this where I'm trying to ingratiate myself to the bourgeoisie so as to not die.

[–]bourgeois_buzzsaw [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

they won't willingly surrender their choke-hold on society.

Can confirm, would not willingly surrender my choke-hold on society.

[–]Morbidgrass [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

For me the idea of "passion" at work is not that I love it. I don't really. I do however make a strong effort to make life decent for the people around me. I don't leave extra work for others to pick up. I try and create faster ways of doing things that make life better for other people working with me. This is what I think of as passion in work. This is someone I would look for. You are stuck at work with the same people day in and day out for a very long time. I'd like someone to be aware of that and at least not make work even more shitty than it has to be.

[–]praxulus [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

It's a proxy for measuring your expected productivity. The passion itself doesn't matter at all.

[–]Bonejob 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (14子コメント)

if you don't like doing your job, why are you doing it? It will show in your day to day input into the work, your coworkers will realize that your are just there for dollars and treat you accordingly. As far as I am concerned you would not be hired in the first place.

[–]Ahaon 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (13子コメント)

if you don't like doing your job, why are you doing it?

Like I said, to not starve to death. I am there for dollars, so is everyone else. I'd rather not pretend that my subjecting myself to employment is done out of a heartfelt desire to be a good little corporate worker. Don't make me act like you're doing me a favor with wage labor.

[–]Bonejob -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

The statement "I am there for dollars, so is everyone else" is patently false.

I did not say anything about corporate employment, if you are that unhappy start your own business or find a company that will hire you to do what your like to do.

We are not doing you a favour by hiring you, we are creating an expectation of value for work.

I see this attitude all the time in workers, this narcissistic ideal that I just have to do the minimum to get by and get my paycheck is a misperception and is based upon old ideals that no longer work in todays economy. People who invest in their company, will get rewards and I dont just mean more pay. I have 6 weeks of vacation for example.

I would suggest if you really believe this then you need to take a step back and ask yourself why you work If it just becuase you want money then your life needs examination.

[–]Wirewings 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ask yourself why you work If it just becuase you want money

This is literally the most out-of-touch thing I've read so far today.

No one just wants money. People need money in order to survive. Not everyone can hold out on some mythical perfect job for them to appear.

Even your bullshit "Start a business!" requires money. And where am I suppose to get that if I don't take jobs I'm not passionate about or actually want?

I can smile and bullshit about how excited I am to work a job I absolutely don't want to do. I did it in high school to work at Tim Horton's, I did it in college to clean toilets and I'm doing it now to do everything but what I actually want to do.

I'm real glad you have 6 weeks vacation. Seriously, good on you, finding something you liked doing and getting rewarded for it. My step-dad also has 6 weeks vacation after giving 30+ years of his life to a factory job he hates. It's not a special reward for you being an enthusiastic worker bee.

[–]Ahaon 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I did not say anything about corporate employment, if you are that unhappy start your own business or find a company that will hire you to do what your like to do.

The good old "if you don't like being a proletarian, become bourgeois" argument is a lot easier said than done.

this narcissistic ideal that I just have to do the minimum to get by

You're asking for a plurality of my life and then demanding that I be enthusiastic about having it taken. I won't. I don't give a shit about your business, I just want to live. Your success is not my success, so why would I bother? I'll do the bare minimum because you are making me.

take a step back and ask yourself why you work If it just becuase you want money then your life needs examination.

I don't have another option. If I don't work, I die, and my surplus labor is exploited enough to ensure that I have to work forever. You've got a very idealistic concept of employment that I simply can't understand.

[–]jokevan 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think you've just demonstrated that this is a useful technique, as it would help an employer avoid hiring someone like you.

[–]Ahaon 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If interviewed, I fake it, of course. I'm only trying to explain why this is a pointless question, and why you shouldn't bother asking it. It's just asking "How much do you love getting exploited?" There's only one sort of answer any worker can actually give, and more often than not it's gonna be a lie.

[–]derailler [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Just make sure everyone is wearing more than the minimum amount of flair!

[–]Lobrian011235 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

You don't realize that they very fact that their are "employers" that make decisions about who is worthy of a living is part of the problem right? Like you know that capitalism is inherently classist right?

[–]derailler [スコア非表示]  (3子コメント)

The statement "I am there for dollars, so is everyone else" is patently false.

No, it isn't at all. No matter what job you're doing or where you're working, look around and ask yourself how many people would still be there if they were told that they weren't getting paid anymore after this second. 99% of people would leave immediately - and why wouldn't they?

[–]yellowmadgey [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I've been headhunted and offered 20k more per year to change jobs, and I've turned it down, because of the really healthy workplace environment I enjoy.

And if I got laid off tomorrow, and had to take a different job 'for the dollars', I'd absolutely continue doing the same work I do now (programming) in my spare time, because I really enjoy it, and have since I was 10 years old.

[–]derailler [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Sure, and I'm in a similar situation - I'd be coding whether or not I was paid for it. It does completely miss the point, though. I would walk out of this job right now if I weren't being paid and work on whatever project struck my fancy. Sure, some places are far better to work than others, but money is the primary reason any of us works for someone else. Don't forget it.

[–]Priorwater [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Absolutely. There are some many things other than money that define the quality of a workplace. Capitalism may be inherently oppressive, but let's not sabotage attempts to interject humanism into capitalism.

[–]Lobrian011235 [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

The statement "I am there for dollars, so is everyone else" is patently false.

The overwhelming majority of people do not have many options for employment in something they want to do.

I did not say anything about corporate employment, if you are that unhappy start your own business or find a company that will hire you to do what your like to do.

Have you tried educating yourself on classism?

We are not doing you a favour by hiring you, we are creating an expectation of value for work.

Lol

I see this attitude all the time in workers, this narcissistic ideal that I just have to do the minimum to get by and get my paycheck is a misperception and is based upon old ideals that no longer work in todays economy.

Employers that expect employees that don't have ownership of or say in the company to do anything more than the required minimum are in fact the narcissists. Also what the hell are you vomiting about "todays economy"? Doing the bare minimum still works perfectly fine and the evidence is all around you.

People who invest in their company, will get rewards and I dont just mean more pay. I have 6 weeks of vacation for example.

Great! You obviously found a decent place that you like to work for that treats you pretty well! Good for you! If you believe this is how it works for most, sorry you are wrong.

I would suggest if you really believe this then you need to take a step back and ask yourself why you work If it just becuase you want money then your life needs examination.

I would suggest if you really believe this then you need to take a step back and try to imagine the sheer number of people that your ideas about work don't apply to, and how much un examined privilege you have to suggest that people simply "get another job" or "start your own business".

[–]GayFesh 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Who let the libertarian in here?

[–]qlnufy [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Encourage them to unionize

[–]RockDrill [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

One thing that's I haven't seen mentioned is that the position itself can be discriminatory. If you're able to, try introducing flexitime, job sharing and other methods that allow people with kids/dependants and other commitments to take the job. How will you manage the need for long hours to finish software to a deadline? Can you organise time better to avoid a last minute crunch?

In my field there's a lot of talk about how the long hours make the career path unattractive to women. Some say it's not an issue, but either way it's not ethical to exploit staff to the detriment of the rest of their lives. Everyone has relationships and responsibilities. Support them to have a healthy work-life balance. There are people in my office who work several hours unpaid overtime every day because they're scared of being replaced if they don't. Don't be the boss who creates this atmosphere.

Another issue I have heard of with regards to programming is that people can be overly harsh critiquing other's code, and biases come out and this makes for an awful work environment. A friend of mine often rages that male programmers don't think she can code because she's a woman. A socially just workplace has space for every type of productive employee.

Lastly, make sure you have a thoroughly researched complaints procedure for recruiting (and maybe externally vetted). Last thing you want is a potential hire accusing the company of discrimination and then it blowing up because the complaint is handled badly. Whether well-founded or not, a badly handled complaint can ruin internal moral, create awful publicity, run up huge legal bills etc. etc.

[–]bourgeois_buzzsaw [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Hey, I work in property management and I accept applications, interview potential tenants, and decide who gets to sign a lease.

The most helpful advice I've ever received with regard to avoiding discrimination is this: don't think of your applicants as people. Dehumanize them. Think of them as units. These units only have a handful of qualities that differentiate them from each other. In my position, these qualities are income, rental history, credit score, and others that would make a good tenant.

In your situation, I would assume that you're looking for a specific skillset, as well as certain attitudes and behaviors that would allow the applicant to integrate well into your working environment. When you review applications and resumes or conduct interviews, you should only be looking for these pre-defined qualities. Don't consider anything else, filter it out as irrelevant data.

I hope this helps, and good luck with your new responsibilities. :]

[–]gerre [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Refuse to expropriate their surplus labor 😁

[–]sparkymonroe 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Treat people like people. I feel like you are WAY overthinking. Pretend everyone is green-skinned and genderless if you have trouble with not treating people differently.

[–]LadyRavenEye 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

[–]sparkymonroe 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I understand, but you can still consciously make the choice to treat people the same. That isn't difficult.

[–]LadyRavenEye [スコア非表示]  (4子コメント)

...the point is that you can't, because a lot of it is subconscious??

[–]Priorwater [スコア非表示]  (2子コメント)

I think you're both right here--yes, there are unconscious biases, and yes, consciously treating everyone as human is a goal to strive for. Colorblindness/Genderblindness are at their worst when the person is saying they are colorblind, but aren't (they harbor racist thoughts, etc.). A consciousness of social issues helps one avoid that sort of hypocrisy, and while it's true that a conscious effort can't negate the psychological effects of implicit bias (just as knowing about the placebo effect has little effect on the results), let's not pretend that conscious efforts to be equitable and just don't pay off. That's giving implicit bias far too much power and, to make a pseudo-psychological pun, we don't want implicit bias to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. White people can treat black people well, men can treat women well--privilege makes it hard, sure, but the power structure isn't monolithic: well-meaning folks like OP up there are the cracks in the tower.

[–]long-winded [スコア非表示]  (1子コメント)

conscious efforts to be equitable and just

(emphasis added)

You are conflating two mutually exclusive ideas here. OP asked "how to be a socially just employer" and being equitable is not the same as being just.

[–]Priorwater [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

Good point. I think "empathetic" was the word I was looking for.

[–]sparkymonroe [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

In that case the answer to this guy's question is that there is nothing he can do. I argue all you can do is be as conscious as possible about it.

[–]24Daily [スコア非表示]  (0子コメント)

There's a lot of bad "colorblindness" advice in this thread being met (rightly) with refutation, but no one here has really answered OP's question. When we talk about racial and gender inequality in the workplace, we're talking more about observable systemic patterns of oppression and ignorance than individual hypothetical situations. (On that note, hypothetical questions and situations are useless, and possibly toxic, in social justice circles, but let's humor OP.)

Workplace inequality manifests itself in many ways, including (but not limited to) pay gaps, harassment, and (ahem, OP) hiring practices. The latter of these effects refers specifically to a consistent pattern among job recruiters whose hire selections are overwhelmingly white and/or male, though the entire hiring pool isn't as monochromatic as these hires indicate. The problem isn't just hiring one/some white men, period; it's that hiring a disproportionate number of white men when compared to the available job candidates is indicative of unfair hiring practices. You can hire some white people and/or men, but hiring only or mostly white people and/or men is unjust and oppressive, especially when those hired either have the same or lesser qualifications than applicants who are women and/or PoC. (This is a very common phenomenon as well.)

Racists often use "I hire those who are best for the job!" as an excuse for consistently making monochromatic hires. The problem with this is that they're not telling the truth: They don't actually hire the best people for the job. If you, OP, are genuinely looking for the best-qualified candidates for the positions you're in charge of filling, the group of people whose qualifications truly merit consideration is certainly not going to be monochromatic. There's no way that the best-qualified person for every position just happens to be a white man; there are too many different careers to be good at for every single field/job position to be dominated by white men by any virtue beyond privilege. A specific white man might be the best-qualified candidate for a specific position at a specific company at a specific time, but that's a hypothetical individual situation that needs to be judged appropriately in light of racism/sexism, i.e. documented and pervasive social phenomena. That ideal hiring round of qualified candidates we're (ugh, hypothetically) assembling may well include some white men, but it won't be exclusively or mostly white men.

(Further, if your workplace is exclusively or mostly made up of white people and/or men, it might be time to reevaluate who the company hires, but that's not a general rule for hiring so much as it is a deliberate counter-measure to a specific, albeit disturbingly common, situation in a given workplace. Also, be careful of tokenism if this is necessary: One or two PoC employees in an office with dozens of white employees doesn't make a workplace diverse, for example.)

Because of your privilege you'll need to think critically about the candidates you ultimately decide to call back for interviews, and there are a lot of supposedly "significant" factors that are commonly thrown around in hiring situations which are realistically irrelevant or tremendously unfair to judge (e.g. what college someone attended, previous workplace experience, etc.). Being empathetic and allowing equity for minority candidates requires that you actively do this as you evaluate all your potential job candidates. This requires a degree of diligence and detachment from personal identifiers, and a willingness to make room for differences in the workplace. It's not about colorblindness or directly "combating privilege," it's about cutting some slack for people who need it and looking for those who are qualified when privilege is (at least somewhat) accounted for.

When it comes to specific positions and interviews... Well, frankly OP, you're on your own there. No amount of hypothetical thought experiments beyond being conscious of privilege and deliberate empathy toward potential hires from a minority will give you a clear-cut set of rules for socially just hiring. Again, if you actually hire the best-qualified candidates for a hiring round, the group of people you hire is, by the virtue of being critically assembled (i.e. by you checking your privilege) and equitable to the circumstances of minorities, is going to be diverse and (at least generally) representative of society as a whole.

TL;DR: Check your privilege, think critically about hiring criteria, and do this in the context of deliberately looking for the best-qualified job candidates. Avoid colorblindness and be empathetic about minority struggles, but don't treat minority interviewees like special tokens. Doing this correctly would (again hypothetically) result in a group of hires which is truly representative of society's diversity: Some of this group will be white, some will be PoC, some will be women, some will be men, some will be trans, etc., but a realistic group of the best-qualified candidates will never significantly favor one particular demographic over another.

Still TL;DR: Check privilege. Be careful about evaluation criteria. Watch out for patterns in hiring practices. Don't treat minorities like token hires. Hire groups of people which reflect the diverse makeup of society, because chances are those representative groups will be closer to a "meritocracy" than any homogenous group could possibly be.

Edit: Clarity and grammar.