by Terminator
Dalai Lama and the Tibet Government in Exile, as well as the western media have never presented any solid evidence or disclosed any reliable source to support their repeated accusation that the Chinese government killed 1.2 million Tibetans between 1949 – 1979. On the contrary, almost all academic scholars and many pro-Tibet advocaters have found that the accusation does not stand on any basis and is even laughable.
One of the main argument of the Exile group to support their genocide allegation is that there were around 6.3 million Tibetans in 1959, and the Tibetan population hardly increased after 30 years. In their 1996 whitepaper “Tibet: Proving Truth from Facts“, the Exile group claimed that based on a 1959 Chinese government newspaper report, there were 6,330,567 Tibetans in China. The number is broken down into 1,273,969, 3,381,064, and 1,675,534 in three different areas (TAR, Kham, Amdo) of the so-called Great Tibet. [1] However, a scrutiny of the data shows that these three numbers are the exact same numbers published in 1954 by the Chinese government over the above areas. And these numbers referred to the total population of the three areas (including Tibetan, Han, Muslin, etc), but not the Tibetan populations. [2]
In fact, the total Tibetan population back 1950s was about 2.5 – 2.7 millions according to numerous academic studies, the Chinese national census, and even Tibet government itself. For example, on November 11th, 1950, in an appeal to the United Nations to stop China’s takeover of Tibet, the Tibet government stated “a weak and peace loving people, hardly exceeding 3 million”. [3] It is impossible that by the end of 1959, the Tibetan population increased to 6.3 million.
A glance at the documents released by the Tibet Government in Exile, one can clearly see a trend that it favors vague data from the newspapers over serious scientific records from academic studies, population census, and historical records.
Therefore, Professor Sautman, a reseacher specialized in studying Tibetan populations, concluded, “What I think these articles show is that there is no evidence of significant population losses over the whole period from the 1950s to the present. There are some losses during the Great Leap Forward but these were less in Tibetan areas than in other parts of China. Where these were serious were in Sichuan and Qinghai, but even there not as serious in the Han areas of China. There are no bases at all for the figures used regularly by the exile groups. They use the figure of 1.2 million Tibetans dying from the 1950s to the 1970s, but no source for this is given. As a lawyer I give no credence to statistics for which there is no data, no visible basis.” [4]
Professor Goldstein also rejected the allegation: “… the exile leadership … continued to attack Chinese policies and human rights violations in Tibet, often going beyond what the actual situation warranted; for example, with charges of Chinese genocide.” [5]
Professor Sautman did an extensive and in-depth study on the literature of Tibetan population. In his 2001 paper, he used indisputable data to reject the allegation made by Dalai Lama and the Tibet Government in Exile. For example, “Figures (detailed breakdown of the 1.2 million number) at this level of specificity are meant to impress, but the emigre approach to numbers is quite elastic. In a 1990 book widely circulated by the Tibet Government in Exile, the number of famine victims is given as 343,000, not 413,000. In 1991, the Dalai Lama stated that 200,000 Tibetans had died from starvation, less than half of what had originally been claimed. These discrepancies are not surprising; some of the statistics are based on citation to documents that do not contain the figure at all, or have not been made public by the emigres… Other figures employed in the claim of ‘demographic annihilation’ derive from interviews with Tibetan refugees in India. Such informants are not likely to be reliable. Lois Lang-Sims, a leader of the pro-TGIE Tibet Society of the UK, wrote that statements of refugees examined in the years after the Dalai Lama arrived in India have ‘an extreme and inevitable unreliability‘” [6]
Professor Sautman’s study is independently confirmed by Professor Goldstein, Co-Director of The Center for Research on Tibet, “One likely factor is that the accounts offered by Tibetan refugees (and apparently also a few individuals in the TAR) are exaggerations or fabrications told to foreigners to garner sympathy and support for the ‘Tibetan cause’… In other words, they were inclined to represent the current situation negatively…. many Lhasa Tibetans harbor deep-seated anger and hostility toward the Chinese, which colors their perception of the current situation and sometimes leads to distortions, exaggerations, and fabrications.“ [7]
Michael Parenti wrote this in his book “Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth”: “The official 1953 census–six years before the Chinese crackdown– recorded the entire population residing in Tibet at 1,274,000. Other census counts put the population within Tibet at about two million. If the Chinese killed 1.2 million in the early 1960s then almost all of Tibet would have been depopulated, transformed into a killing field dotted with death camps and mass graves–of which we have no evidence. The thinly distributed Chinese force in Tibet could not have rounded up, hunted down, and exterminated that many people even if it had spent all its time doing nothing else.” [8]
Even Free Tibet Compaign director Patrick French said the allegation has no basis: “the Free Tibet Campaign in London (of which I am a former director) and other groups have long claimed that 1.2 million Tibetans have been killed by the Chinese since they invaded in 1950. However, after scouring the archives in Dharamsala while researching my book on Tibet, I found that there was no evidence to support that figure.” [9]
[1] Tibet Government in Exile, Tibet: Proving Truth from Facts, http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/index.html, 1996
[2] First National Census Report, National Bureau of Statistics of China, http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjgb/rkpcgb/qgrkpcgb/t20020404_16767.htm, November 1st, 1954.
[3] Melvyn C. Goldtein, A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951 University of California Press, 1991, pp.746-747
[4] Barry Sautman, How Repressive Is the Chinese Government in Tibet?, http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=2732, 2002
[5] Melvyn C. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama, University of California Press, 1999
[6] Barry Sautman, Is Tibet China’s Colony?: The Claim of Demographic Catastrophe, The Journal of Asian Law, Vol 15, No. 1, Fall 2001
[7] Melvyn C. Goldstein and Cynthia M. Beall, China’s Birth Control Policy in the Tibet Autonomous Region: Myths and Realities, Asian Survey, Vol. 31, No. 3, March, 1991, pp. 285-303
[8] Michael Parenti, Friendly Fuedalism: The Tibet Myth, http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html, 2007
[9] Patrick French, former director of the Free Tibet Campaign in London, New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/22/opinion/22french.html, March 22, 2008
Very good effort! Thanks
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By the way, someone argued that Dalai Lama and his exile group only talked about the “culture genocide”, and they never mentioned the so-called “genocide” here. However, in a 1997 interview titled “Dalai Lama My Dream for Tibet’s Freedom”, Thubten Jigme Norbu, the older brother of Dalai Lama said “What the Chinese are really doing in Tibet is a genocide against our people and our culture”. So who is lying on this argument? The reporter of the interview, Dalai Lama’s older brother, or someone else who forget the history?
Dalai Lama My Dream for Tibet’s Freedom, Consul B. John Zavrel, http://www.meaus.com/Dalai_Lama_My_Dream_for_Ti.html
According to Tseten Samdup, a former communications officer for the Office of Tibet, UK and currently co-editor of World Tibet Network News, ” Sir Charles Bell, a British scholar and diplomat to Tibet, who wrote a number of authoritative books on Tibet, estimated the Tibetan population to be at 4 – 5 million in 1930s.” However, before the Chinese take-over in 1949, there are only 2.5 – 2.7 millions Tibetans as we mentioned above. So who killed nearly 1.5 – 2.5 million Tibetans? Who was conducting genocide to the Tibetans? I think the answer is pretty clear – Dalai Lama!
Tseten Samdup, Chinese population – Threat to Tibetan Identity, 1993, http://www.tibet.com/HumanRights/poptrans.html
Do you know what’s the exact number of the Tibetan deaths in 1950-1959?
375.000-600.000
# Rummel: 375,000 democides inflicted on etnic minorities
* … incl 150,000 Tibetans
# Porter: 100,000 to 150,000.
# Eckhardt:
* 1950-51 War: 2,000 civ.
* 1956-59 Revolt: 60,000 civ. + 40,000 mil. = 100,000
# Harff and Gurr: 65,000 Tibetan nationalists, landowners, Buddhists killed, 1959
killed by who ?
self immolation does not count
lies
@Wilson,
What’s the source of your figures?
We’ve all heard the 1.2mn deaths in Tibet and that turned out to be fake.
To Wilson:
Please look at your own figures twice before you give the figure 375,000 – 600,000. Even my 6-year-old nephew knows how to do math better than you! Next time, before you lie, you’d better finish your primary school match class first!
@Cindy6
I know that China admitted that 87.000 Tibetan military were killed in the 1950 Invasion and 1959 Tibetan Uprising. I like to know if someone can guess or predict the numbers from 1950-1959.
All the way to the bottom:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
Free Tibet Campaign/Our Times/Courtois/Walker are wackos and has no research at all.
And also if someone help me did China destroy 6000 monasteries? Link to refute it is welcome.
@ terminator
I’m asking. NO need to be angry.
@ Cindy6
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
200.000 died of starvation and about 100.000 including Tibetan military and civilians were killed.
300.000
Bottom:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
Dalai Lama said 200.000 died in starvation.
China said 87.000 were killed (Tibetan military]
Don’t know about what’s the correct figures about the Tibetan site that gave you a category.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
@Terminator
Don’t be a smart-ass. The figures is from the researchers not MINE.
To Wilson:
Please take a look at your references by your own eyes! In your initial comment, your conclusion of Tibetan being killed was 350,000 – 600,000. But by your own reference mentioned in that comment, can you get that figure?
Now let’s take look at your new references from users.erols.com. There are nine references there (1. Free Tibet Campaign, 2. Our Times, 3. Courtois, 4. Robert Walker, 5. Rummel, 6. Porter, 7. Eckhardt, 8. Harff and Gurr, 9. Small and Singer). First, we know that 1.2 million is fake, so this eliminates reference 1, 2 and 3. Reference 4 refers to all ethnic minorities not Tibetans, so not useful for your conclusion here. Reference 5 mentioned 150,000 Tibetans. Reference 6 mentioned 100,000 – 150,000 Tibetans. Reference 7 mentioned 102,000 total. Reference 8 mentioned 65,000 in 1959. Reference 9 mentioned 40,000 of non-Tibetan soldiers, so no useful here. So which reference supports your conclusion then?
If you want to do some research, at least do it in an academic way instead of using pure imagination! BTW, I’ve heard that it is Tibetan’s tradition to believe in myth as truth.
To Wilson:
And regarding to the famous figure of “87,000”, it seems to be a definitive number because it is mentioned numerous times. The very original source, is from a Chinese military document (then referred by the Tibetan government in Exile). The document claimed that PLA “eliminated 87,000 enemy troops”. Please pay close attention to the word “eliminated”. This is a special word frequently used by PLA. In the PLA history, it has never had the same meaning of “kill”. It merely means that that the enemy is completely defeated – in another word, lost the strength to fight. We all know the meaning of “defeated”, right? By your reference from users.erols.com, Robert L. Walker claimed that during 1945-1949 2nd China Civil War, there were 1.25M casualties. But do you know that PLA always claimed that they have “eliminated 3M – 5M KMT troops” during that civil war?
What about starvation (200,000 according to Dalai Lama], death from torture, suicides, and death from prison & Labor camps? Do they count it as well?
Execution/Battle constitutes 100,000-150,000 Tibetan death.
At least 580,000 more precise China caused 576,071-626,071 Tibetan death.
http://www.tibet.com/HumanRights/poptrans.html
I agree the 1.2 million is over-counted by the Tibetan organization but just 87,000 to 150,000 from the Chinese side is wrong and is very well under-counted.
terminator: according to the sources you have read what do you think would be the number of Tibetans killed 1949 – 1979 by the Chinese government?
is it a considerable figure?
@Wilson,
“I agree the 1.2 million is over-counted by the Tibetan organization but just 87,000 to 150,000 from the Chinese side is wrong and is very well under-counted.”
What’s your proof for your argument? If 1.2mn is a fabricated figure (and still quoted by loads of free-Tibet crowds btw), what kind of credibility do theses parties have regarding statistics?
I don’t know about the validity of the 6000 monasteries figure. But according to many scholarly researches (Wang Lixiong and Tsering Shakya who’s a Tibetan historian in exile), these were largely destroyed by Tibetans themselves, under incitement from the Hans though.
To Wilson:
When you quote a source, please try your very best not to quote Da-liar Lama. He has never provided any solid evidence to back up his claim. He is just a politician, not an academic researcher. You should never trust a politician. Even members (including formal director who have access to Da-liar’s “sources”) the Free Tibet Compaign do not buy his claims. And you know what? I bet he will never have the courage to disclose his “sources” to the general public because they are pure lies (or academically I should say “extreme and inevitable unreliable”). Once his lies are disclosed by himself, he will have no credit left at all.
Regarding to your new reference from http://www.tibet.com. I want to ask this question: did you read my original post at all? In that post, I have used academic studies to point out the fundamental problems in your new reference! The Exile group uses total population of the so-called Great Tibet area as the number of the population of Tibetan people to support their lies! And as usual, their figures are merely meaning to be impressive, and have no basis at all. Again, no convincing sources, no credit at all.
And you said that “just 87,000 to 150,000 from the Chinese side”. I am sorry, when and where did Chinese claim that figure? Or did I claim that figure if I do not misunderstand you?
@ Terminator
http://www.tibet.com/HumanRights/poptrans.html link was your source as well regarding the starvation death.
So as Anonymous said what DO you think about how many Tibetan died when Mao invaded Tibet and the death in the 1959 Tibetan Uprising with the help of the American CIA?
To Anonymous:
Good question. However, I have not found solid academic study on the actual figure.
I’d suggest Prof. Barry Sautman’s 2001 paper “Is Tibet China’s Colony?: The Claim of Demographic Catastrophe” published on Columbia Journal of Asian Law. It has an impressive long list of references (332 in total!) from all types of sources: Da-liar Lama’s, newspapers, books, academic studies, etc. And it does an in-depth analysis on these references.
From non-academic side, I’d provide you two sources I read recently below (in Chinese). Both people had experience from Tibet. Again, I do not backup their figures:
Mr. Britex Xu, a Chinese scholor, was banished by the Chinese government to Tibet during 1982 – 1986, and becomes a firm criticizer of the Chinese government. He did a study on many Tibet issues in his book “Himalaya” (http://www.tangben.com/Himalaya). In Section 2 Chapter 8 of the book, he compared the population increase between the whole China and Tibetan during 1949 – 1983 using the data published by Tibet Gov. Exile, western scholars, and western historical records. His conclusion is that the population increase of Tibetan is significantly larger than the increase of the whole China if the Chinese government had killed 1.2 million Tibetan. This is impossible given the fact of harsh conditions in Tibet. He suggested that the actual number of Tibetan being killed should be less than 200,000.
In the same chapter of the book, he referred to an estimation by Ngapoi Jigme, a advocater of Tibet independence and the Director of Tibet Division in Radio Free Asia (rfa.org) since 1996. Mr. Jigme admitted that the number of 1.2 million is largely exaggerated. The actual number he thought is about 300,000 – 400,000.
To Wilson:
Regarding your last question of number of Tibetan casualties between 1949 and 1959, I do not know, and I do not want to make an arbitrary assertion. But, if anyone wants to make up a number, he/she’d better to provide some convincing evidence.
BTW, I would like to quote a number from en.wikipedia.org: all Iraqi violent deaths from March 20 2003 to August 2007, according to Opinion Research Business, is 1,033,000 (946,000-1,120,000). So the US invasion has caused more than 1 million Iraqees death within just 4.5 years! Even if we assume that the Chinese government had killed 1.2 million Tibetans during 30 years from 1949 to 1979, it is obvious that the US government is far more efficient in killing innocent people!
In conclusion, I would say that the Chinese government is incredibly inefficient to perform “Tibetan genocide”: after 30-40 years, the total Tibetan population is more than doubled, and the life expectation of ordinary Tibetan is nearly doubled. I bet native Americans would love to have this kind of “genocide”.
“In conclusion, I would say that the Chinese government is incredibly inefficient to perform “Tibetan genocide”: after 30-40 years, the total Tibetan population is more than doubled, and the life expectation of ordinary Tibetan is nearly doubled. I bet native Americans would love to have this kind of “genocide”.”
This isn’t surprising. They kicked out most of the nuns and monks out of the monasteries and nunneries. I think they used to comprise quite a significant proportion of the population before the occupation. So based on that, the raising of the standards of living that China has brought, as well as the passage of time that has occurred (which has effects on it own) it’s not surprising that the “genocide” did not severely affect the significant growth of the population.
Quoting Anonymous “I think they used to comprise quite a significant proportion of the population before the occupation”
Now, honestly, in a harsh place like Tibet, with a significant proportion of the population being monks and nouns who never work even as of today, what do you think the lives of ordinary Tibetans are like? There are plenty of photographic evidence documented the miserable living conditions for them. Not really a paradise, wouldn’t you agree?
Quoting Anonymous again “the raising of the standards of living that China has brought, as well as the passage of time that has occurred (which has effects on it own) it’s not surprising that the “genocide” did not severely affect the significant growth of the population”
So, you do admit that the Chinese did do some good in Tibet? I don’t think you should let your friends know it.
On one hand, you agree with the increased population and living standard at least partially due to what the Chinese had done right, while on the other hand, you still claim that “genocide” did occur. Just what kind of “genocide” is it? Are the Chinese from Mars or are we just too incompetent to even do a proper “genocide”?
From Encarta Dictionary:
“genocide – the systematic killing of all the people from a national, ethnic, or religious group, or an attempt to do this”
Indeed the Chinese are incompetent! The Chinese tried to commit “genocide” while at the same time improving the living standard of Tibetans. Do you think the rest of the world is so stupid?
I am more than willing to hear your definition of “genocide”.
How do you respond to that Manchu and Mongolian Empire took Tibet but Han Empire never did?
While quibbling over the exact numbers, it should be noted that the deaths in ’59 came about from a CIA-funded rebellion to preserve slavery in Tibet. Monks and monasteries were involved in the fighting because monks fought; the monasteries had many serfs, and the monks wanted to preserve their ancient power.
If anyone has evidence of very many people killed in ’50, I’d love to have a link to the evidence. My understanding is that Tibet offered very little resistance, and in return, China let Tibet keep a great deal of autonomy.
bihbijb1， don’t you know there is a Ming Dynasty between Manchu and Mongolian Empire?
suqing17
Ming Dynasty is Manchu.
bihbijb1, where did you learn this idea? Get the right Chinese history basics before you speak. To say Ming is Manchu is like to say the south won the civil war–everybody knows you are ridiculously wrong.
Wilson just owned himself. How stupid one could be.
it is sad whenever you see truth in the fringe of media.
Ming is Manchu?????????? AHAHAHAHAHAH
So, if I understood that correctly…basically Manchus overthrown themselves when estabilishing Qing dinasty on the ashes of Ming state? AHAHA
despite the discrepancies of the figures, the reality is that China’s crackdown on Tibet monks is a reality. It has been criticized by reputable organizations like Amnesty International. TIME magazine and New York Times have reported on these events, so lets stop trying to fight over the death figures and lets start claiming change and democracy for the Tibet monks.
To JC:
Yeah, I’d love to stop fighting for the death figures – if the Exile group stops lying on it. Before that day comes true, I will not stop.
Regarding to the Tibet monks, I think the first thing the Chinese government should do is to remove the monks from the government payroll. A modern country should separate the church and the state. The Chinese government is stupid to be one of the few governments that financially sponsor the Tibet monks. I bet this will solve a lot of problems. When the monks struggles for everyday’s meal, they will pay less attention to independence and democracy.
Also Amnesty International relies on sources to draw its conclusions…and though I highly respect their work, I also came to doubt their singlemindedness and rigidity on many issues (I directly know some people working for it, and sometimes have argued with them regarding their sometime and somewhat extremixt approach to the question)…anyway, all comes down to “what sources they rely on”…if it the same sources newspaper also rely on (i.e. “government-in-exile” or “tibetan in exile” connected sources), then I don’t consider that completely reliable and trustworthy. Amnesty International is not the “Bible” (though i’m not a believer), they too can be deceived or make mistakes. As for TIME and New York Times..well do u consider them as reliable, professional and trustworthy media?? I personally don’t, as I don’t trust CNN, Fox and many others. US government (and many others western governments, mine – Italian – included) have many vested – economical and political..none of which really connected with a true interest for human rights or whatsoever – interests in exerting pressure over Chinese goverment and trying to split the country or cause internal problems…thus the constant press and political campaign to demonize it. Tibetan monks are far from being peace-loving, spirituale only people..they’re representatives of political interests, other then following the footsteps of the ancient tibetan aristocracy. It’s strange that the same people that opposes theocracy in muslim countries, and also at home, defends in Tibet an ousted theocracy and tries to reinstate it in power..very very strange..don’t u think?
Terminator, I would like to remind you of the record of dishonesty the PRC has employed for years. Although i am personally not sure of the statistic of the Tibetans who have died due to Chinese intervention, I doubt many, if any people are. The PRC has a history of a strong method of murder followed by the suppression of facts. let us not forget the Tienanmen Square Massacre, and the PRC’s denouncement of its occurrence. Can any numbers coming from a Chinese-occupied territory be trusted?
Ziggabüt:
PRC has been dishonest for years. But this does not automatically put Dalai Lama and his followers on the good side. In this politic game, there is simply no innocent one. And from what I’ve read from western academic studies, the opposite side of PRC is far far worse and less honest. Just read my original post and do some research about those data. Anyone with a little objectivity will conclude who is constantly lying.
As always, please do some research on academic literature, and put all propaganda from both sides behind. Use serious academic studies to back you up, instead of using simple labeling.
And be sensitive of your words in your discussions. For example, you obvious draw a equal line between PRC and ordinary Chinese people in your last sentence. This is never an effective way to back up your argument. It is just like “OK, I know Da-lie Lama/NYT/CNN/BBC are lying. Can any numbers coming from the western/exile group be truested?” This kind of argument is pathetic and useless.
@terminator
No matter what the number is of the death toll, what China is doing is wrong. If people are lying about the number its because they probably want something done about it. It is not China’s place to deforest the land, kill off already endangered species and run people out of their homes (monks who practice PEACEFUL lives! COME ON!) it is horrible and it just sounds like your OK with it.
@jeanna:
It seems you are OK with lying in order to support a political agenda. Do you know how many Iraqis died and suffered for Bush Administration’s WMD lie? Do you know how many innocent people died and suffered for Hitler’s lie during WWII? Do you know how many Tibet serfs died and suffered for Da-Lie Lama’s lie of Shangri-La? I guess you do not care as far as you think it’s helps your political standpoint. Be careful, you are standing on the side of brutal dictator who had a proven record of enslaving millions of serfs.
COME ON! We all know how Da-Lie Lama and his exile group define the word “PEACEFUL” – listen the interview by your self (http://www.rfi.fr/actucn/articles/100/article_6734.asp). In summary, “We Tibetan love peace! We can beat you, We can torture you, We can burn you to death – hey, we love peace and we do not take your life away – it’s the fire taking you to the heaven.” Are you OK with such a definition of “PEACE”?
Die sechs Millionen Tibeter bilden ethnisch, kulturell, sprachlich und geschichtlich ein eigenständiges Volk, das sich von seinen Nachbarvölkern eindeutig unterscheidet.
It’s very clear that “Terminator” is not an ubiased source of information – both from his/her report as well as how he/she conducts his/her replies. It is also very unfortunate Terminator is not willing to stand behind his/her article by using his/her name – it’s so easy to say whatever one wants anonymously; Terminator makes the same mistake the Chinese government does: while a pretty mask may save face, it cannot change the fact that that face is hideous.
While it is admirable Terminator uses Scholars and Tibet supporting groups to highlight discrepencies in claims of just how many Tibetans were killed – the article is still devastatingly one-sided and does not acknowledge nor illustrate the choke hold the Chinese government has on the media, nor it’s own unreliability in its information as well as it’s propoganda. The fact that Terminator barely uses any Chinese documentation except perhaps in one or two points, perhaps indicates that he/she is aware that the Chinese Government has barely any credibility when it comes to the truth of their actions against the Tibetan people and using them to support his/her case that they are not commiting genocide would only weaken his/her argument.
Also a tragic flaw in this article (that may or may not have been intentionally overlooked by the author) is providing an internationally accepted definition of just what genocide is – fortunately the United Nations does have such a definition of genocide, and this definition is not exclusive to mass murder of a nation, but also includes systematically destroying a culture and or way of life. It is curious that Terminator’s article does not include statements from the Scholars he/she has quoted as to their opinions whether or not genocide is being commited against the Tibetan people. Terminator only uses the quotes that supports Terminator’s conclusion.
Terminator is clearly a clever and skilled writer and so I have no doubt terminator knows all to well how easy it is to take a very tightly cropped picture of “objective” sources to show only the parts that support a heavily biased point of view (which again is painfully obvious throughout this entire post). It is truly sad such an excellent writer wastes his or her talent in such a destructive and unimpressive way.
@Ryan Bartholomew:
Please tell me, suppose the Chinese government indeed said some truth. But the Chinese government has a portrait by the western as “has barely any credibility”. While the western assert that the Chinese government is lying about this specific truth, how would you prove that it indeed is a truth? Please, tell me how you would do it. I’d love to see how you can prove the truth.
But before I know how you would do to prove the truth, I will defeat your proof in advance. First, I would question the source of your evidence. If it has any link with the Chinese government, your evidence is automatically disregarded because we already know nothing from the Chinese government is creditable. If your evidence passes this test, I would question your background. I would hint that you must have a link with the Chinese government. Either you have interests related to the Chinese, or you have been brainwashed in the past by the Chinese. Otherwise, how dare you back up the Chinese government on this issue? Up to this point, I do not need to argue the actual fact about the truth at all, and no western people care about the actual truth at all. What they need to know is that this is just another repeated lie of the Chinese. And lastly, even if a few people do care about the truth, I would say that truth does not matter in the context of blah blah blah because we know China is evil.
Do you like this kind of argument? I bet you must love such argument because this is exactly what you were doing.
@Ryan
You questioned me why I barely uses any Chinese documentation. First of all, I have not followed any Chinese government official media and press since the middle 1990s. Secondly, since western public do not believe anything from the China side, why bother wasting our time to bring up the argument from China?
So here is my question. Since western public do not believe anything from the China side, nor do they believe the academic studies from their own side now (based on your argument), what is the source of “truth” of Tibet do they believe? It seems to me that the only source is either their governments or the “free press”. Based on my understanding, they do not believe their governments at all. So this means that the “free press” is the only source of “truth” they believe. However, in terms of the “truth” about Tibet and China, western governments show incredible coherence with the “free press”. Doesn’t this sound like a catch 22?
Here is a link to the U.N. post of the Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide – there are multiple language options available. The U.N.’s definition of genocide is in the pdf under atircle 2 – even someone casually acquainted with the situation in Tibet (from reliable sources of course…) knows that if fits this definition of genocide.
http://untreaty.un.org/cod/avl/ha/cppcg/cppcg.html
Funny, why always complain about the Chinese? See what British did to china, go to war to openly sell opium. See what the white skin people did to the rest of the world and self-proclaim that they are righteous people and their descendants dare to come here to reprimand others? Please look into the mirror, history books or discovery channels.
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Somebody here mentioned the Tienanmen ‘Massacre’ and the denial of the PRC to show that the PRC is not trusted. I agree that the PRC has not been truthful on many things, not unlike other governments, but even the Tienanmen ‘Massacre’ is proven to be a lie and the PRC is truthful about it. Read this:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/eo20080721gc.html
and the WikiLeaks cables from the US embassy on what happened that night.
terminator, your work is extremely clean, and logical, especially the
one you have posted on:
terminatorii
March 17, 2012 at 6:04 pm
sehr gut …sehr sehr gut
The exact figures are not irrelevant, but they don’t stop the need to prevent the cruelty and harsh conditions in Tibet today. It’s impossible to argue that the situation in Tibet is good right now. I wrote a 4-part article specifically thinking of this blog, congrats. Here is the link to Part 1: http://bobzermop.hubpages.com/hub/The-Tibet-China-Conflict-Part-1 . Don’t let propaganda close your eyes.
the picture in the site they are not chinese
The Tibet-China Conflict – Part 1: Overview and History
they are not chinese http://bobzermop.hubpages.com/hub/The-Tibet-China-Conflict-Part-1
The article appears pro-chinese in its views. Regardless of the exact number of people killed, there in insurmountable evidence of executions and human rights violations in Tibet.
Who is the real person writing this article anyway…?
The views represented sound more like debating the exact number of protesters killed for e.g. during Tiananmen Massacre than acknowledging the fact that it actually happened and who’s responsible for it.
Your comment is not new. It belongs to an effective method to spread propaganda against China:
. Make up an accusation against China with no evidence or fabricated “facts”, and put it in a headline story.
. Run the story again and again.
. When truth is disclosed by someone, accuse them with link to China with the hope that discrediting the disclosers can deny the truth.
. When truth is not disputable, simply claim that the truth is irrelevant in the context of human rights violation in China.
Would you please come up with some true facts to backup your arguments instead of entering the above loop again?
Is it easy to disregard common human rights while sitting comfortably behind your computer screen? China has killed and Tortured and yet here we are brainwashed by its government. Villages are being eradicated in the northern parts, thousands of monasteries are being destroyed, industries are being placed and the environment is getting polluted. This is a systemic destruction of a race, its culture and it’s entire belief. Young Tibetans are being taught about alcohol, night life. The chinese have now become so powerful that it is okay to uproot decades of tradition. It is okay to have hundreds to migrate from their homes in villages. It is okay to separate Tibetan families.
Crimes against Humanity cannot be disregarded whether or not the number of deaths were fabricated or not. One murder is crime, a thousand is sin.
Source: I am a Tibetan, and I was forced to flee from my country when all the things mentioned above happened right in front of my eyes. Take it from a refugee, China will have to answer some day.
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I work for a publishers
tibeans are liars
dalai lama is a liar he said chinese tries to poison him dalai lama said i don’t know 100 percent correct or not the is no possible to cross check like that and murder in the snow it all stage and lies made by australian british ,romanian and other europe countries. the video is to make money murder in the high himalaya book and starts riots
MURDER IN THE SNOW IS STAGE AND LIES AND THEY SAY CHINESE DRESS AS MONK CAUSED THE RIOT WAS ANOTHER LIE IT WAS THE CHINESE MAKING A MOVIE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLt0Xl74aAM
you give all stupid numbers that can’t prove shit! who seen it?
Genocide and illegal occupation of a country is not laughable. This is obviously chinese propaganda.
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Quibbling over the numbers of humans tortured, murderer or having their religious freedoms removed is irrelevant.
Torture, murder, beating, of even 1 human is not acceptable.
Regardless of the ‘actual numbers’, the fact remains that China is unethically occupying Tibet against the will of the people. And China has destroyed centuries of medical, philosophical, cultural and artistic documents of the Tibetan people. And destroyed thousands of monestaries, tortured, imprisoned and killed thousands of monks and nuns.
Disagreement over the “actual” numbers doesn’t change the facts of homicide. It is repugnant.
lets see…for starters …how about orange agent in nam…then those got “civilized” in iraq war ( the civilians) …
and india’s invasion+occupation of kashimere
and before these “wars”/conflicts, churchill called stanlin as an necessary evil, when stalin killed all those jews either in internment camps ( aka equivalent of nazi’s death camps )…
am i defending china ???no, the common denominator is WHERE THERE IS POLITICIANS( BY “POLITICAL BELIEFS” OR BY “RELIGIOUS BELIEFS”) THERE WILL BE WARS
so plowman go farm your brain out…might help to relief the pressure in your cranial skull
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I’ll call back later
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I was made redundant two months ago http://brazzers.xmov8.com/ brazzers
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Will I get paid for overtime?
I’ve been made redundant cigarettes buying
vxk Improvements to environmental law are of critical importance to the climate refugee problem. Future environmental protocols must aspire to be effectively “post-Kyoto” – centered on long-term, quantifiable outcomes. A salient reason for the Kyoto Protocol’s failure was its nearsightedness; emissions goals should be measured in decades rather than a few years. Additionally, these agreements must take a step toward legal maturation by implementing sanctions. These sanctions should be interpreted as being in the collective interest – if environmental agreements perpetually fail, the whole world fails. Because international law lacks an enforcement mechanism, sanctions may amount to exclusionary measures, penalizing states by assigning them pariah status in the international political community.
The Chinese should leave tibet-