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This sub continues to disappoint... (self.Israel)

tayaravakninDirty American が 投稿

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[–]DementedWatchmaker 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Funny because recently, my downvoted comments in this sub are the ones presenting left wing arguments.

I think the election caused tempers to be running high, and a lot of tribalism in the threads :/

[–]Green_Apeפלצנית 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with what you said, and also probably people who wouldn't normally be in the sub but are coming to try to make after election drama

[–]TheMossad 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (10子コメント)

The left wing in America, because of the recent media explosion over Bibi coming to speak, has begun to think of Israel as a completely right wing state. The media has decided to make it a Republican vs Democrat issue, because that's all the Americans can comprehend living under a 2 party system, they don't know anything about the multiple parties of Israel, nor do they care to learn about them. MSNBC covered the elections nonstop, bringing in people who knew NOTHING about Israeli politics to just condemn Bibi all day. At Fox News, you could see the childish glee on the pundits faces when Bibi won, and Jon Stewart used this to show how Bibi has become the new darling of the republican party.

Another unfortunate fact is that many people think that Zionism = Right Wing Ultra-religious Settlers. So when they see someone supporting the "Zionist Union", they automatically downvote it out of ignorance.

[–]eaturbrainzsmolan alive in israel, smolan making album of israel 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (7子コメント)

The left wing in America, because of the recent media explosion over Bibi coming to speak, has begun to think of Israel as a completely right wing state.

While your overall point is true, the problem is that Bibi and the Right have been playing the exact same message, but on their side. So you have right-wing voters who think Leftism is treachery here, and left-wing voters abroad who think Zionism is Rightism. It's to the point where, well, why wouldn't they? That's what the Israeli government keeps saying!

And then, let's talk about the violence last summer. Since when do we all keep mum about Jews attacking Jews?

[–]TheMossad 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think that regardless of if you are liberal or conservative, you should condemn and distrust Iran ,when every friday they yell "Death to America, Death to the UK, Death to Israel." Both Liberals and conservatives should condemn Hamas and BLAME Hamas for the recent wars in Gaza. But since Bibi = rightwing, and in the eyes of the American left, rightwing = wrong; that translates to Israel being wrong about everything it does as long as Bibi is PM. However I would argue that the Americans who promote this narrative are MUCH more damaging to Israeli-US relations than Bibi himself. They play on dividing the people, and I don't believe that either side really cares about Israel, they just need to take the Pro/Anti-Iran stance as their parties command them too, and Israel is the one who is getting blamed for the divisiveness, when it is really the US media, and the fact that congress has been harshly divided over every Policy Obama has proposed, the Iran deal just being the latest. The democratic party, the party that I unfortunately voted for, has turned against Israel as long as Bibi is PM, and the US media is playing it out like a soap opera.

About the Jew on Jew violence, if we are being honest with ourselves, we have to admit that there are still those in the right who are Kahanists and view the Jews that don't agree with their near-fascist views as traitors. We simply need to keep condemning them like we did when Kahane was rising in popularity.

[–]eaturbrainzsmolan alive in israel, smolan making album of israel 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think that if you are liberal or conservative, you should condemn and mistrust Iran when every friday they yell "Death to America, Death to the UK, Death to Israel." Both Liberals and conservatives should condemn Hamas and BLAME Hamas for the recent wars in Gaza.

No. Conservatives should be siding with Hamas and Iran, who are, after all, regimes of religious rule and hierarchical values. The fact that they can't see how similar they are is but an aspect of their general insanity.

But since Bibi = rightwing, and in the eyes of the American left, rightwing = wrong

Admittedly, you should try looking at the American Right if you want to understand why they've generalized like that. Inside the USA, "right-wing = flagrantly evil" is actually a pretty accurate generalization!

And no, I don't mean conflicts over "teh gays" or "SJWs" or any other internet-politics issues. I mean simply: the Republican Party, which currently has the exclusive claim to be the American Right, has become a combination of rentier capitalists trying to extract as much wealth and power from society for themselves as they can, and religious dominionists, and just plain creepy people who value hierarchy for its own sake rather than for the sake of order.

I don't believe that either side really cares about Israel, they just need to take the Pro/Anti-Iran stance as their parties command them too, and Israel is the one who is getting blamed for the divisiveness

This was true until Bibi turned it into a partisan matter. Like, if Bibi didn't want this to be a partisan matter, he shouldn't have been spending his term in office openly registering himself as a Republican, and alleging that only Republicans can truly be Zionists.

Sure, Bibi seems to actually believe this shit he's spouting, or at least he keeps consistent about it if it is cynical, but he should also have been able to predict the negative consequences for Israel's relations with other countries. Problem is, he's so flagrantly delusional that he really believes he might as well alienate everyone except American Republicans, because American Republicans and similar (ie: Modi in India, who is a neoliberal right-wing religious dominionist in the Republican mode) are the only foreign non-antisemites who aren't shilling for Arab interests on the entire planet.

the fact that congress has been harshly divided over every Policy Obama has proposed, the Iran deal just being the latest. The democratic party, the party that I unfortunately voted for, has turned against Israel as long as Bibi is PM, and the US media is playing it out like a soap opera.

Yes, but the thing is, if you're clever, when you see a shitstorm, you stay the fuck out of it.

About the Jew on Jew violence, if we are being honest with ourselves, we have to admit that there are still those in the right who are Kahanists and view the Jews that don't agree with their near-fascist views as traitors. We simply need to keep condemning them like we did when Kahane was rising in popularity.

We need to admit that Yachad is a neo-Kahanist party and ban them, and that Bayit Yehudi contains no small fraction of Kahanists, and that even Likud has a sprinkling of them. We need to actually confront the neo-Kahanism that's been fucking festering in our society for years now.

[–]TheMossad 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think you're being very unfair in your characterization of the Republican party. The Evangelical Christian side of it that you claim to be similar to Iran and Hamas is 1/5th of their party at most, and while they have their fair share of loonies, they're far from Iran or Hamas, even the crazy religious ones like Ted Cruz or Mike Huckabee are nowhere close to the Ayatollah and his dictatorship.

I think we can both agree that Bibi coming to speak to congress was tactless and damaging to the relations of Israel and the US. But when it comes to this Iran deal, Obama is completely wrong. Speaking out against Iran should be something the US should be interested in REGARDLESS of Israel. Iran is committed to de-stabilizing the entire middle east, from Bahrain to Yemen they are trying to make the gulf states their client states. It was IRAN who's Shia militias were killing US soldiers during the US occupation of Iraq. When the Free Syrian army was closing in on Damascus, it was IRAN's Hezbollah that joined the fight and killed them by the thousands, crushing what was left of the secular resistance and turing it into what they and ISIS/Al-Queda wanted, a Sunni vs Shia war. It's IRAN that turned a forward leaning Lebanon into a bitter and divided government that is near collapse at any moment. The very fact that he's trying to put forth the idea that Iran can be negotiated with is absolutely insane. Anyone should see that Iran is slowly and methodically trying to acquire a nuclear weapon, and unfortunately, this makes the Republicans right about this issue, even if they're too dumb to know why they are right and are only supporting it to seem 'tough on terror'. We can agree Bibi made a real mess of things, but Obama's pipe-dream of a legacy where he repaired relations between the US and Iran will in reality be far more damaging to the stability not just Israel, but the whole Middle East, than that Bibi coming to give a speech at the request of the Republicans.

I don't personally believe in banning political parties, it's very unliberal (is that a word?) to try to suppress a political opinion, no matter how wrong it is (as long as it is non-violent of course). I'm pretty sure whats left of the Kahanists are going with Yahad and Baruch Marzel and his group, I don't think there are many Kahanists in Bayit Yehudi or Likud at all. Again, I think you are being much too harsh in your view of the right, both in Israel and America. That being said, Israelis are generally afraid to admit that this ideology isn't dead, and we should be more vocal about confronting it.

[–]eaturbrainzsmolan alive in israel, smolan making album of israel 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Iran is committed to de-stabilizing the entire middle east, from Bahrain to Yemen they are trying to make the gulf states their client states.

No, they're just rivals to Saudi Arabia, who the Americans are allied with. Daesh is trying, and succeeding, to destabilize the region.

I don't personally believe in banning political parties, it's very unliberal (is that a word?) to try to suppress a political opinion, no matter how wrong it is (as long as it is non-violent of course).

Kahanists are violent.

[–]TheMossad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, they're just rivals to Saudi Arabia, who the Americans are allied with.

Really? All you say is "No"??? I'm sorry, but you're just completely wrong about this. They have used the uprising in Syria and the destabilization of Iraq to attempt to create a Shia power base extending from Tehran all the way to Beirut. Just because Daesh is trying to destabilize the region as well doesn't mean Iran isn't. Daesh is EXACTLY the sort of enemy Iran wants and needed to make themselves look like the legitimate defenders of Shia Islam.

You don't need to remind me that Saudi Arabia are US 'allies', but perhaps you need a refresher on the countries like Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, and Bahrain where Iran is currently fighting and destabilizing/taking over the governments there.

[–]pitmotתל אביב / יהודה / לוס אנג'לס -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Left and Right don't translate from Israel to the US.

Also, most Americans do not know that Bibi and Romney in the past worked together in Boston. So rather than look like support of an old friend, Obama did his best to play victim (which he is a master of doing), and makes a narrative that conveniently fits Obama's Islamo-phile agenda.

[–]eaturbrainzsmolan alive in israel, smolan making album of israel 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also, most Americans do not know that Bibi and Romney in the past worked together in Boston.

If they didn't know before, most Democrats know by now. That's why they're so fucking angry.

So rather than look like support of an old friend, Obama did his best to play victim (which he is a master of doing),

Sorry, when does Obama play victim? Have I just missed this?

makes a narrative that conveniently fits Obama's Islamo-phile agenda.

While he's certainly more Islamo-tolerant than previous American Presidents (ie: Southern and Evangelical Christian jackasses), I can't see calling him Islamophilic. But hey, I've not been soaking my brain in Republican propaganda magazines devoted to finding everything anyone associated with him does that could seem Islamophilic.

[–]pitmotתל אביב / יהודה / לוס אנג'לס 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The media makes a "self-fulfilling prophecy" by constantly trying to make some sort of backlash or drama between Bibi and the US.

It is entertainment for them. It is the content the brings in viewers easier than real thinking about real issues.

[–]Get_Low 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've had to correct so many people who think the Zionist Union is the "party of the right." I facepalm every time.

[–]ofekme 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

yea i wrote some stuff talking about the left and how some stuff they dont get (imo) and i got upvoted form what i saw.
it sucks but even in my faimly my mom and bother are upset because of the election results i think we are all a bit satly about some things that happen doing that time.
it will slowly go away as time passes by.