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    Feminists don't hate men. But it wouldn't matter if we did

    Jessica Valenti
    Jessica Valenti
    Hurting men’s feelings is not the same as life-threatening misogyny
    confused man
    If a woman hates men, it has approximately zero effect on any given man. Photograph: Alamy
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    One of the most common derisive taunts thrown at feminists – and one of the oldest – is “manhater”. It’s been around since the days of suffrage, and still gets used today, though its a pretty anodyne insult. Most feminists, like me, shun the label and work to convince people that despite the stereotypes feminists absolutely, without a doubt, do not hate men.
    But so what if we did?
    It’s not that I recommend hating men or think it a particularly wise use of one’s time, but to each her own. Straight white men still hold the majority of political, economic and social power in the world, and everyone else struggles to make their lives work with less. So if the worst thing that happens to a man is that a woman doesn’t like him ...well, he has it pretty damn good. It’s not as if we’re living in some sort of Wicker Man-inspired dystopia, after all.
    Besides, when women hate men, we hurt their feelings. When men hate women, they kill us: mass shootings have been attributed to misogyny, and sexual and domestic violence against women is often fuelled by a hatred for women.
    That’s why it’s so hard to take seriously any claims that “misandry” is a tremendous problem – they’re based on the idea that merely insulting men is similar to the life-threatening misogyny women face worldwide. (Most recently, Newsday writer Cathy Young argued that men being called “mansplainers” or rape apologists is akin to the rape and death threats that women get online.)
    But a younger generation of feminists has embraced what Slate writer Amanda Hess calls “ironic misandry”. Hess wrote last year that the rise in popularity of “male tears” mugs and man-hating inspired shirts and crafts serves as a sort of fuck-you to the constant barrage of harassment that feminists often face: “On its most basic level, ironic misandry functions like a stuck-out tongue pointed at a playground bully.”
    Guardian contributor Jess Zimmerman – and self-proclaimed “misandrist witch” – told Hess: “It’s inhabiting the most exaggerated, implausible distortion of your position, in order to show that it’s ridiculous.”
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    In other words, calling ourselves misandrists is both a way of reappropriating one of the most common insults feminists weather, and a way to blow off some steam after a long day of fighting the same battles we did 30 years ago. And honestly, if feminists really hated men we’d probably come up with a better way to hurt them than funny t-shirts that insist that their tears are delicious. (Men may have some very sensitive parts, but even the manhating-est among us doesn’t go around kicking them willy-nilly.)
    Despite all the fun-loving, internet-in-joke misandry, the vast majority of women and feminists do not hate men. Many of us might hate bad men: the sexists, misogynists and all-around jerks. But our hatred is just a feeling, and not something that can impact men in any meaningful or oppressive way.
    Men who claim to be genuinely worried about man-hating or “misandry” are grasping at straws, and searching for a victim status that simply doesn’t exist. Guys are still doing pretty well, so let us have our “man-hating” fun while you go on ruling the world.
    But keep one eye open. (Just kidding ... sort of.)

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    • 131 132
      Basically, we men are being told:
      "Calm down, dear. It's only an article".
      Reply |
    • 179 180
      Masculists do not hate women but it wouldn't matter if they did.
      What is wrong with the above statement but right about yours?
      Reply |
    • 40 41
      Yup, the difference between "Cuddle with a struggle " and "Throw rocks at them" is that rape happens, whereas I don't walk down the street worrying about having rocks thrown at me.
      Reply |
      • 52 53
        I don't know a single person, male or female, who walks down the street worrying that someone will rape them. If I did I would advise them, and offer any needed help, to move to a safer country/city/town.
        Reply |
      • 37 38
        I don't know a single person, male or female, who walks down the street worrying that someone will rape them.
        I have a number of women friends, white, middle-aged, living primarily in the States, but also in the UK, who share "walk safely" tips, and talk about how, all their lives, the way in which they watch streets, men, cars and night-time, are completely different from anything we men have ever had to do.
        So, let's play a game of duelling anecdotes, eh?
        Reply |
      • 34 35
        Yes And we say to our friends to ring us when they get home just to make sure nothing's happened to them. Do men do that with their male friends after a night out? I don't think so.
        Reply |
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    • This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
    • This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
    • 209 210
      "Besides, when women hate men, we hurt their feelings. When men hate women, they kill us" - What?
      Reply |
      • 121 122
        I just love how such a ridiculous sentence starts with an off hand "besides".
        Reply |
      • 16 17
        Just another nonsense phrase, are you surprised?
        Reply |
      • 124 125
        Feminists who write in the guardian imply two propositions about violence towards women that I believe are intellectually shallow. First, that violence towards women is caused by misogyny and is therefore idealistic as it is an effect of thought, and second that violence towards women should be understood as sui generis - unique in its own characteristics - and unrelated to the causes of other social violence.
        I think both of these implications are untrue and it would be more constructive to understand violence towards women in terms of what we know about violence more generally. Significantly, that a predisposition towards violence is a psychological trait usually linked with a lack of empathy and this is developed in children's early years (and not necessarily through exposure to misogynistic ideas but more profoundly neglect, violence, bullying etc.). Also, I would like to know more about the perpetrators of violence towards women. I would be surprised if the people who were beating and killing their girlfriends and wives were not also violent towards other men and children and that violence towards women did not occur in isolation.
        A thought experiment might be instructive - imagine a society where misogynistic ideas had been totally eliminated. Has violence towards women including rape completely disappeared? I'd suggest no. That doesn't mean fighting misogyny is not important but it does mean we should try to understand the causes of violence towards women more broadly and using knowledge from other disciplines instead of just cultural theory.
        Reply |
    • 134 135
      "Straight white men still hold the majority of political, economic and social power in the world, and everyone else struggles to make their lives work with less."
      ...yes, but the use of the word men here is quite reductionist - surely we should be talking about rich & privileged white men? Working class men equally suffer at the hands of our system.
      Reply |
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      • 10 11
        That's true. And I would have added disability into the mix.
        Reply |
      • 57 58
        Upper Middle Class men and women are in power, the women often behind the scenes, but very effectively. Working class men and women are both opressed. The "enemy" is not men, it is the powerful elite who care only about themselves. I can't stand overpriviledged selfish rich women who pretend to be "feminist" when they want to moan that they are not receiving as many millions as their overpriviledged male friends and should all be CEOs, when the rest of us struggle to even get a job.
        Reply |
    • 46 47
      I've not got anything to say but thought I'd pull up a chair to watch the fireworks.
      Reply |
    • 116 117
      Hating concepts is fine, hating belief systems is fine, hating other human beings is not fine and never will be.
      Reply |
      • 20 21
        I agree but I think it's useful to say that a concept is exactly what a misandrist or a misogynist hates. This is part of the problem. The concept is the hater's picture of actual people who've hurt them, based not on the people but on the hurt. The other part- the 'gendered' part- is a social idea of what a man or a woman is like inside. From this mix emerges the object of hate, a gendered concept: a creep or a bastard or a slut or a witch. Actual people with all their contradictions are beside the point. It's this lazy conceit that we can know people in 'identity' terms, reducing them to the crudest concepts, that converts personal enmities into sexism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, snobbery and the like.
        Reply |
      • 3 4
        This is a very very good comment
        Reply |
    • 15 16
      Well, I'm grabbing the popcorn - but remember, it's all just entropy.
      It's Friday, it's the day before the weekend - and we all want to go into it feeling good.
      *munching sounds*
      Reply |
    • 138 139
      I can be hated because some other guys rule the world? Ah, OK then.
      Reply |
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    • 162 163
      So when my ex-smashed a mug over my head and repeatedly punched me, kicked me and slapped me to gain coersive control, that didn't really matter cos like, other guys have treated woman badly in different relationships. Right.
      Reply |
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      • 31 32
        That's irrelevant to this article. Your ex was a violent person whose assault warrants arrest and rehabilitation, obviously.
        This article is outlining how, 100 times to 1, when a woman shows non-physical, verbal distaste for men, it isn't actually dangerous or life threatening and men can brush it off (or whinge and cry crocodile tears like many of the men in this thread).
        As a woman, when I am faced with non-physical, verbally distasteful language from a man or a group of men, my reaction is to wonder whether or not I am going to be assaulted or killed.
        Do you know why? Because my experiennce, as well as the experiences of every single one of my female companions, has proven that this behaviour from men can lead to unwanted advances and intimidating behaviour that can last either a minute or a whole night.
        I'm sorry you had a terrible experience with a deranged ex girlfriend but domestic abuse statistics aren't just fun numbers feminists throw around. The ridiculous amount of emotional and physical violence women face from men is the reason why so many of us are wary and critical of certain men. And exhausted from trying to explain this over and over and over wiith the research to back it up.
        Is it so difficult for you to justshut up and listen to a female perspective on an issue that is literally killing so many of us? Wouldn't it be better to stand back and ask, how can I make the world a little better for women to navigate? If women feel safe, empowered and confident there are no losers in the long run; the economy performs better, relationships are healthier etc. I don't really know how you can argue with this.
        Reply |
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    • 21 22
      It's not big, it's not clever etc.
      I sometimes wonder if it’s not counter-productive, since it just gives those who believe feminists are misandrists a reason to go “see, they do hate us!!”. But then, would they think otherwise no matter how pleasant or polite the opposition was?
      What I don’t get is why anyone is bothered by this. The irony in all of this is clear, and the outrage that greets it just seems misplaced.
      Reply |
      • 34 35
        Outrage is the new opiate of the masses.
        Reply |
      • 38 39
        this is spot on, Bjerkely. I blogged about the Amanda Hess article when it first came out, and concluded:
        As with all issues of free expression, I do not urge bans or legal intervention as a solution. I urge everyone to accept responsibility for the consequences of their words. If you use violent imagery and hateful expressions, people will assume you are violent and hate-filled. If you wish to portray yourself as a campaigner for human rights and equality, and you play with the language of violence and oppression, don’t be surprised or complain if others assume you and your movement are violent and oppressive. This shouldn’t be a particularly difficult rule to grasp.
        Reply |
      • 67 68
        The irony is not clear.
        Feminists can't expect the public to be amenable and responsive when they treat any negative comment or joke about women as skin to violent misogyny, then brush off any hateful or generalising remarks they make about men as "just a bit of irony".
        Making hateful remarks about a whole gender and then defending it by saying "it's just a laugh" or "it;s meant as an ironic comment, not to be taken seriously" is basically Dapper Laughs territory, isn't it?
        I'm not offended by it, as a bloke, and I realise a lot of it is meant rhetorically, but it's just so ridiculously childish, stupid, inconsistent, and counter-productive to the cause of feminism that I think anyone actually interested in that cause needs to take a bit of a stand against this sort of thing.
        Reply |
    • 130 131
      Besides, when women hate men, we hurt their feelings. When men hate women, they kill us: mass shootings have been attributed to misogyny, and sexual and domestic violence against women is often fuelled by a hatred for women.
      Really - that's your argument - misandrists are just light and fluffy, and would never hurt a fly, but misogynists are all psychopathic killers.
      Try this for size - from the BBC - "Scalded husband: 'No shame' for male domestic abuse victims - A man was left in "unbearable, searing pain" and scarred for life when his wife poured boiling water over him. Gilbertson [victim's wife] is due to be sentenced on 24 March." No doubt you would argue that jail is no place for a woman. Your overly simplistic "us and them" mantra is wearing thin, and is a disservice to those in genuine need of help and support. But hey, why let the truth get in the way of a good rant.
      Reply |
    • 57 58
      Straight white men still hold the majority of political, economic and social power in the world
      That could explain why we don't give a toss when women "insult" us. Water off a duck's back, love. I just light another cigar as I make huge profits aboard my yacht.
      Reply |
    • 15 16
      when you hate someone it diminishes your own soul so its better to avoid
      Reply |
    • 61 62
      Circular logic. Women don't hate men because I say men hate women.
      When men hate women, they kill us: mass shootings have been attributed to misogyny

      You're quoting yourself there to back up your own claims.
      The whole business about men's behaviour being heavily dictated by a hatred of women looks to me like a wierd fantasy. I don't see or hear much evidence of that for myself - but then as a man that probably means i understand nothing.
      Both concepts in those two sentences are pretty damn misandrist.
      Reply |
    • 98 99
      Straight white men still hold the majority of political, economic and social power in the world
      I don't think feminists hate men but for goodness' sake they do constantly generalise about them. A tiny number of straight white men fall into the sentence above. I'd say there are many more straight white men in this country however who are homeless or in prison. The language often used by some feminists is insulting to to a lot of people and it might give you a clue as to why it draws such a negative reaction.
      Reply |
    • 126 127
      I am a woman and I find this to be quite a distasteful article. Men cannot change the sex they were born as just as black people cannot change their race.
      It's a unhelpful for you to say "so what?" If women hate men. Men die and are harmed by men-hating women and you're undermining their experience.
      Reply |
    • 25 26
      TL;DR - Say what you want to men no matter how hateful, nasty or poisonous because their feelings don't matter and they don't care if you hate them because nothing you say or do has any effect on them. And you wonder where the stereotypes come from?
      Reply |
    • 22 23
      But so what if we did?

      Aha!
      So you admit it!
      Reply |
    • 55 56
      aside from that, I'm going to be ironically racist today, yeh 'fuck the jews', lol irony right
      Reply |
    • 3 4
      As Oscar Wilde said its not the perfect that needs our love but the imperfect. What is hating 'bad men' really for?
      Reply |
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