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GamerGhazi

subscribeunsubscribe6,089 Cultural Marxists destroying video games readers
429 SJWs here now users here now
Do you think people who care about social justice should have the freedom to review and make games without harassment and doxxing?
Or do you just think GamerGate is a bunch of hypocritical right-wing conspiratorial horse crap?
Then this sub may be for you!
We reject the label "Anti-GG," as we are not a movement in the same sense GG is. We are simply Gamergate's critics along with those directly threatened by the mob. While Ghazi is a group, "anti-GG" at large is not. Pointing and laughing is not a "movement."
We reject the idea that gamergate is, or has ever been, about ethics in games journalism. While clearly some members of GG truly believe in these ideals, they are a small minority, and GG is not a forum at all conducive to any productive and positive goal.
Be sure to ☆CHOOSE YOUR FACTION☆ with flair!
Post any stories exposing the ridiculous nature and harmful effects of GamerGate. No pro-GG shilling allowed - go anywhere else on reddit for that.

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submitted by RexMundaneLiterally Hans - stickied post
There've been a few incidents in the last week of what look like otherwise reasonable people being on the receiving end of some quantity of bullshit sourced from here, or more particularly posts that feel quasi-inciting to get mad at MiracleOfSound over a twitstorm, or Brianna Wu over a cup of coffee, etc. With that and this recent observation from Maddy Myers, and this one from Jay Allen, it occurs to me that we might ask ourselves, are we doing something wrong?
I understand, of course, that we're not a movement or counter-movement, that the stated goal of Ghazi is meant to be good-natured ribbing, and I like to think in the long run we've certainly done much less harm than good. I just feel it's worth asking ourselves, Hans, if we're the baddies, and if, to avoid becoming the baddies, how we might better avoid baddie-ness as we go about our business. Particularly, if we, even though this is focused on being a laugh-at-them sub and nothing else, end up inadvertantly creating the same sort of semi-fanatical "attack our perceived enemies with regularity" mindset that makes up their day to day.
Going one further... well I know I'm not the only one to ask if it's not time to close up here and move on to other stuff but... should we? Shouldn't we? There's barely anything left of GG to fight, and the "laughable" parts are degrading into more vulgar garbage, and by focusing on that... well, to be selfish about it, are we well-served by laughing at the pile of burning bullshit?
tl;dr - How do we take the good things Ghazi does and make them better, without letting the few bad things get worse?
edit: So, judging by some of the responses I'm seeing, as well as a significant ghazi-critical sentiment on twitter, I want to clarify something: I am not saying we suck. I think we're great. But I also think that if people think we suck, that those people are worth listening to to explore ways in which we might become more great. People... good merciful fuck I don't know how to say this... interpreting complaints about a community as a personal attack, even when they don't apply to you personally, and responding by trying to shut down that person's voice? That's... I mean don't make me say it, you see what I'm getting at, right?
top 200 commentsshow all 288
[–]chivesonPROVEN NON-GAMER 18 points19 points20 points  (1 child)
I'm sorry maddy myers feels the way she does. Probably right to criticize the list, if it wasn't being maintained properly.
I think she's being a little unfair otherwise, though. I can't speak for the other 6000 people here but i joined this SR for two reasons: to offer people what little support i can, and to vent about something I really dislike in a sympathetic place. Not for some exploitative rush. Frankly I feel pretty insulted but I should probably stop personalizing comments made about an entire group, not an individual.
If you think we're doing more harm than good, then by all means, take steps to mitigate it, up to and including closing the SR. But preserve some place for the culture here, please? Be that ghazigamer or some entirely new subreddit I'd like it if ghazi continues to exist in some form, even if not a GG fixated one.
[–]MarioNecromancer 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
You should not feel insulted if you weren't individually named. Learn from the mistakes of GamerGate people.
[–]PoliteTimesplitter 37 points38 points39 points  (21 children)
As for packing up shop...well, please note I say this as a relative reddit noob who doesn't even subscribe to stuff, I just float, but the idea of Ghazi disappearing, honestly, almost terrifies the hell out of me because Ghazi fills a niche that goes beyond discussion of GG.
Of course, if Ghazi goes away, we'll need the sidebar stuff archived. But if Ghazi goes...well...where can we talk about the vidyer gaems from our perspective without being dogpiled by Gators? r/gaming (r/games?), r/pcmasterrace et al are chock full of gators, and so are plenty sites, namely Gamespot / GFAQs and Youtube. I can't go a few pages without someone mentioning The Hashtag That Must Not Be Named.
Shutting up shop? I don't think that'd be appropriate, but some retooling perhaps? A gaming sub that has a safe-space atmosphere, like 'r/progressivegaming' or 'r/filthySJWgaming' or 'r/gamersbehavingbadly'?
We have a lot of OT threads especially lately and I think that speaks to the fact that a lot of people here see Ghazi as a cool safe space to talk about social issues in gaming, whether that's goings-on in the scene or games that have good representation. And that's something that I feel is really, really valuable at this time.
Of course I accept I may well be wrong and I just need to be pointed in the direction of another site, but having used GFAQs for more than a decade it's hard to adjust.
[–]newl-asjw trans otherkin tumblr boogieman 16 points17 points18 points  (2 children)
the idea about doing a progressive gaming sub would be great, this sub is the most accepting and non shitty place ive found so far to discuss gaming, its certainly better than and trans or otherwise lgbt groups i found on steam.
[–]snozberrydrivebySocial Justice NPC 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
/r/SRSGaming exists as a progressive gaming sub.
[–]kissmekindl☭☭Cultural Marxist☭☭ 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I'd also favour a progressive gaming sub, so long as it was tightly moderated and tolerated no Gators.
[–]rawtatoHence The Well-Fed Slark 13 points14 points15 points  (2 children)
Same here, I never even had a reddit account until I felt I wanted to join in with ghazi. Some cool discussions go on here. There is r/ghazigamer perhaps? Maybe keep this ghazi in a read-only fashion, maybe update it once a week or month with the latest gator bullshit, and we can converge for generally-non-disckish funtimes over on ghazigamer?
It would be nice to starve kia/gg of our attention.
[–]PoliteTimesplitter 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
See, I didn't even know that was a thing (thanks for sharing!). It's partly because I can't into reddit, but I did not notice in the sidebar until I checked just now and I've skimmed that sidebar plenty times. And from the fact we have so much [OT]-tagged stuff, I think it's a safe guess a hella lotta other Ghazelles don't / didn't know that exists either.
[–]rawtatoHence The Well-Fed Slark 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
Yeah it doesn't get much overt mention here I guess to try and keep the drama out of it? But check it out! Waaaay more gaming-related with a generally cool atmosphere. C:
[–]GiantSJWConspiracyUnpreparedSocks 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
Thank you for this entire post. That's pretty much exactly how I feel.
I'm not always sure how to reconcile wanting to be goofy in here, because I enjoy goofiness, and supporting people harmed by GG, and archiving information about GG tactics. But I'm so happy there's a place where that's usually possible.
[–]ffangss 11 points12 points13 points  (10 children)
[–]emphasis_mineLiterally Ethics 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I wish there were more people frequenting that sub.
[–]ZagdenPro-Dat Ass 4 points5 points6 points  (6 children)
I just can't get into the SRS-sphere. The pendulum swings too far in the other direction for me and I feel like I'm walking on egg-shells there far more than I do here.
[–]PISSLEMONSIT BURNS 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
Me either. I think I agree with a lot of what SRS stands for but they are a bit much at times and IMO really negative. Not to mention, they always end up heavily brigaded if they become somewhat popular.
[–]ffangss 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
srsgaming in particular isn't very negative and isn't a "highlight shitty reddit posts" sub. people talk about games. but if you don't want anything to do with the network at large that's understandable, i guess.
[–]PISSLEMONSIT BURNS 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate SRS with the passion of a 1,000 burning sons or anything like that, but after a while I found it a bit much. I think SRS is good for what they do (highlight bad reddit shit), but even the non-circle jerky subs have circle jerks and IMO a tendency to take things too a frustrating extreme, even "good" things... like one time someone complained about "impotent rage" being abliest so they removed it... it's like come on, I know they mean well, but geez.
I feel bad criticizing them because I was an avid poster there for well over a year, and they definitely helped me become more enlightened about social issues and all that... but yeah, at some point things got annoying and frustrating, especially when it seemed like there was a large influx of social justice newbies posting all of the time. And by that I mean there would be a bunch of well meaning users that were new to social justice, and they had a lot things right, but they also were inexperience and not as educated in some matters like the older users, so they got a lot wrong too.
I've found /r/girlgamers to be a pretty good community that has all the positive aspects of SRS and none of the cringe worthy stuff SRS related subs sometimes do. It just sucks that not a lot of people post there.
[–]Cielle 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Honestly, my impression of that sub was rather tainted by a now-banned poster who shall go unnamed, who I understand was/is a regular over there. Is the general atmosphere as welcoming and friendly/nonconfrontational, or?...
[–]ffangss 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
SRS gaming is not usually SRS-style circlejerky at all, just fyi
[–]ZagdenPro-Dat Ass 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I'll give it another look. I'm not on board with the bizarre/hilarious SRS-Illuminati conspiracy but I don't particularly like the idea of having anything SRS in my sub list due to the connotations unrelated to the conspiracies, either.
[–]devilmaydance 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I don't visit that subreddit much, but sometimes it seems like they go too far in the other direction - but hey I could be wrong!
[–]ffangss 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
i go there less than i used to, but honestly to me it seems like mostly just a gaming sub with fewer dbags than a normal gaming sub. there's generally not much srs growling happening.
[–]Dizmn⁂Social Justice Berserker⁂ 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
/r/SRSgaming has existed and to the best of my knowledge will continue to exist. There's a nice little community over there, weekly gaming threads for when you wanna talk about what you're up to but don't wanna make a post about it, and more! It's one of my favorite subs.
[–]ZagdenPro-Dat Ass 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
As a life-long, very avid gamer, I love this sub. It reminds me that my hobby is not shit, that these people trying to exclude and dumb down the entire medium are not winning, are small and ridiculous. With how loud they are and how they try to drown out other voices it's cathartic to come here and see them as they really are, not how they wish to be perceived. On top of that, it seems most of us either are gamers as well or have an interest in gaming and I've had interesting discussions here just in the capacity of a gaming community that is mindful of social justice issues but not quite as dominated by them as SRS is.
[–]observer_december 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I can't go a few pages without someone mentioning The Hashtag That Must Not Be Named.
...it gets brought up that frequently? I was hoping it didn't but had no way of knowing since I don't frequent gaming chats as much as some others, partly due to not wanting to find GGers.
[–]FEMAcampcounselorDARPA Chief 42 points43 points44 points  (67 children)
I also share these concerns as the founder, when I made this sub I was sincerely hoping this BS would last a few weeks, not months. Around January GG really hit it's low point and I suggested making the sub private for a while to see how gators would react to having a major source of their ire removed from view, but I guess other mods disagreed.
I'm still in favor of making this sub private for a while to see if that helps in any way. Whatever helps victims the most is what I'm in favor of. :p
edit: Inspired by the comments, I'm currently more in favor of freezing the board (no new submissions) with a weekly/monthly update post so people who are looking for information can still use this subreddit for that purpose.
edit2: or a week of cat videos. W/e
[–]lifestyledSardonic Jester of Woe 46 points47 points48 points  (26 children)
I honestly wouldn’t mind if we just had a week of non-GG content. Like, say, a week of nothing but talking about video games. Posts about what we’re playing right now, analysis of our favorite games, YouTube videos about game trivia, favorite video game soundtracks; stuff to share what we love about the medium. A week of positivity.
It’d be a week of letting KiA and GG fester in their own waste, and a week where we can unwind and take a break from seeing all the terrible shit happening right now.
[–]NeonBlack666 21 points22 points23 points  (13 children)
Honestly this sounds like a wonderful idea. I really need to talk about video games with people who aren't toxic. And an entire week break of nothing but that sounds like heaven right now.
Otherwise I just have to be like, ok fine, I'm gay and feminists are evil and women are just generally annoying. Now...I'll agree to that but let's discuss the WOR in FF6. How do you think it impacted Celes as a character? puts index fingers up to lips and leans back awaiting intellectual discussion
[–]lifestyledSardonic Jester of Woe 6 points7 points8 points  (9 children)
see, I wouldn’t mind learning more about FFVI because I’ve never been able to complete it. it bored the crap out of me by the time I got to getting the ninja dude. same thing with V, where I’m like maybe 10 hours in and just don’t care about anyone in the story. and I feel like I do it a disservice because many people rave about the story of VI.
conversely, I’d like to discuss SMT IV with people, or the whole of the Chrono series and its use of time-travel spawning multiple timelines, one of which was pulled out of the abyss of time, causing all of the strife that occurred in Cross.
or how FFXIII was a landmark for the series after VII, VIII, IX, and X kind of diminished the political themes by having the tail-end of the games go off the rails into ridiculousness that (at least in the case of VIII) kind of made the story less interesting. with XIII, they tied the fantasy into the political themes while also adding the mythological layer to it. XIII-2 kind of abandoned the political themes, but in a positive way that didn’t hurt the story, and LR had some minor political discussion here and there but overall felt sporadic and, while fun, tied up some ends that didn’t need tying while tying up other ends in ways that just felt awful (Odin is the chocobo, and has such a minor purpose that it felt like he was no longer an equal compared to XIII and XIII-2).
[–]NeonBlack666 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
You kind of run into the ninja dude (Shadow btw) a few times in the story and use him. So if it's the first time you ran into him, it's still pretty early in the game and it does get better.
FF6 for me was basically slow in the beginning and I wasn't very interested. Then a few hours in the story started picking up pace and the game started to get more charming. There was a few hours in the middle that was just amazing. The story was moving along great and there were some great moments. There were possibly two parts that were some of the most emotional moments in the entire franchise.
Then the WOR happened and the story came to grinding halt and the game became a grind fest. To do the last dungeon you had to level up ALL your characters because you had to use them. This took forever and it really annoyed me since I tend to use my favorites and ignore the rest. However, the ending was good.
FF5 I haven't played yet but will soon. For what it's worth, I heard it's not very good. It doesn't have the same love that FF6 has.
It's hard to tell, do you like the XIII trilogy?
[–]lifestyledSardonic Jester of Woe 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
FF5 is interesting because it has some self-aware parody to it, which is kind of funny and certainly unique considering the time when it came out. but, there’s a lot of management to the game, which I wouldn’t mind so much considering Tactics was all about management and I love this shit out of that game, but I just can’t get in the mindset to invest much time in FF5, even if it promises the chance to fight an antagonist literally called EXDEATH.
with VI, all I know is I stopped playing sometime around a point involving a waterfall.
and yes, I absolutely love the XIII trilogy, Señor/ita Sarcasm. the cast has become my favorite out of all the games, even considering how much I loved VII and how much I thought I loved X until playing the remaster.
it gets so much flak for reasons I just can’t understand. XIII had me so engaged, so connected to every character, and I felt none of them were done any injustice or left out. it truly was an ensemble, and Sazh’s scene at the festival was so powerful to me. the antagonists were fantastic as well, and the world was beautifully fleshed out in the data log as well as the cutscenes.
with XIII-2, they gave us Caius. so far, out of every game I’ve ever played, he is my favorite antagonist. his story was very, very powerful, his voice actor was practically born for the role, and it’s a story that has just stuck with me and had me replaying the game multiple times to experience it. I truly feel no antagonist in the whole series even comes close to rivaling him on any levels. he had the tragic story, the unyielding sense of duty to the point of obsession, his cleverness is unparalleled, and everything about the dynamic between him and Yeul really made the game.
when you look at it, his story is somewhat of a parallel to Serah’s, with both going on this seemingly impossible quest to save a single individual who lives outside of time. and they both end so similarly, they’re both so obsessed that they’ll go anywhere and anywhen if it gives them even the delusion of achieving their goal, but it still remains impossible.
of course, with LR, they ended up reducing some of the impact felt by the other two games. Caius’ story, though, does still find him in tragedy...but the end of the whole trilogy basically created a giant reset button which I felt was ran absolutely counter to the intent of XIII-2. the happy ending felt kind of out of place, regardless of how beautiful and cool it looked.
and that’s where we run somewhat into the Fandumb problem, where so many people freaked the fuck out over XIII-2’s ending and the implications, that the developer seemingly just said “fuck it” and gave that sect what they wanted.
[–]DrSoybeansThe Hammer is my Ethics 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
I find that as I get older, I just don't have the patience to engage with long-winded JRPGs anymore.
Because totally, FFVI is one of the greatest narrative games ever made. But I could never play it again. I think about it all the time, but I can never bring myself to pick it up again, because it's just such a time and attention investment now.
Now that professional and personal life has gotten more complicated and robust, I find myself drawn to roguelikes and tactical RPGs more than anything, because they're easy to pick up and put down, and the stories are things I can engage with if I want, or ignore, without really diminishing the experience.
[–]lifestyledSardonic Jester of Woe 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
yeah, that’s why I haven’t been able to finish a session of VII in quite some time, because I’m reminded of the highlights but also remember some of the long spans of tedious shit I don’t want to do again. it’s also why I love P3, but haven’t completed a second time because there are sections where you’re really just grinding repetitively.
but, at the same time, I can fully enjoy a JRPG for the first time if its engaging. Ni No Kuni I haven’t completed because taking care of your familiars is just such a boring and involved chore that doesn’t get compensated by the story, even when I’m at least 30 hours and dozens of side quests in, while I’m playing SMT IV right now and in absolute love with it because there are so many mysteries and my choices have actual impact.
even outside of JRPGs, you have games like Fallout 3 that I completed once but then found that my choices had such a minimal impact compared to so much time wasted on fetch quests that I can’t complete it a third time, compared to Deus Ex: Human Revolution where most of my time is spent reading the emails and books and absorbing the world even if I just have the vanilla version which means I have to deal with shitty bosses that force me to grind and level up skills I will literally only use for bosses. it’s a game I still love to play because the world had such effort put into it and poses so many questions and thoughts.
and then of course I have the Metal Gear Solid games which I can always pick up and play over and over, compared to the Assassin’s Creed games that I’ve loved the story of (with the exception of 3, for both story and gameplay) but don’t find myself replaying because there’s a lot of repetition without much customization that actually has an impact or feels different.
[–]NatalieHarmoniaPlated Zee Lion 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Man, I wish I could talk about SMT with someone. Havent played IV though.
[–]TikemThe reins of gaming back in the hands of Man 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
You consistently write FFXII with an additional I and it's annoying.
But seriously, FFXII's handling of political themes is the strongest in the series if you ask me.
[–]lifestyledSardonic Jester of Woe 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
see, that’s another game I wasn’t able to finish, solely because I picked it up in college while going through the beginning of the peak of my drug phase. I’ve always wanted to complete it some day, as I don’t think I got more than fifteen or so hours in before selling it to buy some weed.
[–]TikemThe reins of gaming back in the hands of Man 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
It's such a shame it's the only main-FF game that's not available digitally on any platform. It's honestly my favourite game of all time and it makes me so sad that I can't tell people to "GO FUCKING BUY IT RIGHT NOW" because Square Enix Square Enixed.
[–]lifestyledSardonic Jester of Woe 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
yeah, I’d much rather see that game remade than the kingdom hearts games, to be honest. the KH ship has sailed for me, I noped out of Dream Drop Distance after two hours. I mean, I loved 1 and 2, played them fully to completion, even beat Sephiroth without breaking a controller.
but...I just can’t go back to playing them. I tried, but just couldn’t.
[–]ArchangelleDovakinPopcorn Aficionado 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Have you tried /r/SRSGaming? It sounds like that's what you're looking for.
[–]GlensatherEqual Opportunity Offender 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
The 2nd half of FFVI ruined Celes.
[–]NeonBlack666 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
How do you figure?
[–]chewinchawingumhence the prepared sock 12 points13 points14 points  (3 children)
I keep proposing a week of cat videos. Maybe it should be cats playing video games!
[–]NeonBlack666 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
[–]RAIDENS_ASSMolotov Socktail 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
[–]chewinchawingumhence the prepared sock 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
[–]DrSoybeansThe Hammer is my Ethics 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
I think it would be a great idea to eventually move the sub permanently in this direction.
I'm getting so exhausted with GG bullshit. It's funny to see smart people here rip it to shreds, but it's also depressing as hell to be constantly reminded of just how awful GG is every single day.
And it seems pretty clear at this point that GG is not going away. They're basically irrelevant now, except as a leaping-off point for talking about how to deal with their brand of shit. But the industry has made it clear it more or less thinks GG is a joke.
They're still harmful, and they're certainly more harmful than previously, when all these assholes were more decentralized and disorganized. But now that the reactionary anti-feminist dickheads have realized that they can make more noise under a centralized banner, I doubt they're going to stop. Like, ever. As long as there are MRA douchebros, there will be GamerGate.
So I think the idea of continuing to use Ghazi only as a place to mock GG will run out steam sooner rather than later.
I would love it if this became primarily a gaming discussion sub specifically for the good people who think GG is shit.
I mean, there have been at least three or four threads here asking people which subs they use to talk about gaming. The only one that is pretty much universally free of Gator nonsense is /r/girlgamers, and as was pointed out, many of the men here don't feel great about starting to actually post there because then they run the risk of diluting the whole girl gamer angle. Ghazi could be a great all-purpose gaming sub for everyone who hates Gators' nonsense.
[–]emphasis_mineLiterally Ethics 3 points4 points5 points  (3 children)
This.
I totally would not mind this sub turning into a general gaming sub for people who care about diversity and want to talk about representation isssues, problems within the industry and etc. Basically /r/SJWGaming :P
[–]_rhetz_Super Joss Whedon 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
there doesn't seem to be anything here
:(
[–]Caelrie 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
/r/SJWGaming would rock.
[–]Urdnot_Veximagine a sock with googly eyes laughing at you - forever 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
There is always /r/SRSGaming
[–]vitsikanyfeminist gazpacho 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I'd be super down for that.
[–]sp4nningtonCultural Marxism Propagandist 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I think this is an absolutely fantastic idea.
I imagine if we take a week or two 'off', and use that time to encourage positive discussion about the things we genuinely love in and surrounding games we'd strengthen our own community, while hopefully giving us a bit more perspective.
I feel at the moment, we're jumping at anything we can. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've found myself doing entirely idiotic things like checking TBs twitter, simply in order to see if he's made an arse of himself again.
Hopefully in the long term it could lead to us not only pointing and laughing at GG, but also celebrating lovely things (which does already happen to some degree), and creating a safe space to discuss anything games related.
[–]GlensatherEqual Opportunity Offender 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Honestly I hardly post anything GG related unless it humors me. Usually everyone else jumps on it before I do, but I'm always more interested in discussion about various A) gaming related things or B) Critical thinking topics, sometimes C) Socially Progressive type stuff. This sub is literally the only one I've ever had a big interest in posting in (if you look at my comment history, this account has been active for 2 years but I've hardly posted. Only in the last 8 months or so have I become really active and probably 85-90% of my posts are here (going by my karma breakdown, 83% of it comes from here).
I like it here. I'd like this to remain active, though if most of us moved to a different but similar sub I'd be okay with that, too. I like most of you except for /u/EditorialComplex (naw just kiddin) and it's definitely one of the friendliest subs.
[–]YinEmissaryI'm into survival 16 points17 points18 points  (2 children)
Support this motion. If we're going to be serious about supporting victims of GG, having it right in the open for GG (as one user put it, "building a house next to your fucking stalker") completely defeats the purpose.
Also, as the tweets have shown, we need to emphasize dialogue more. The mockery was cathartic for a while, but it has increasingly become one-sided self-gratification and trigger happiness against people who even show signs of sympathizing with gators. Perhaps if the sub was private to prevent gator trolls, we would all be less on edge.
[–]Moriarty42Hence The Prepared Sock 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
"building a house next to your fucking stalker" [...] we need to emphasize dialogue more [...] The mockery was cathartic for a while...
Wow, you put it a lot better than I have. I know this is a horrid reddit trend, but I really do want to say THIS because it is well put and sums things up nicely.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Very well said.
[–]JanvsDislike Collectivist 14 points15 points16 points  (2 children)
I think making the subreddit private is smart, and would drive gators CRAZY. I love this idea.
[–]spacehoggClassic pointing & laughing! 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
This! Because it would continue the theme of this sub as a parody!!!
Also, I'm really curious as to how active KiA will be without Ghazi around. There seems to be some perceived (at least to me) feeding frenzy that KiA gets from this sub.
[–]TheBostonPopscute butt colored hair 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I can just imagine the two weeks (who am I kidding, seven months) worth of r/agg threads it would spawn. "Why does aGG feel the need to hide?" "Are aGG secretly plotting behind closed doors?" "How deeply are aGG colluding with Reddit in their secret group?"
[–]OmegaBlue0231☭☭Comrade In Arms☭☭ 14 points15 points16 points  (10 children)
I'm still in favor of shutting this down if we need to, as much as I like it here I knew going in it was going to have to end some day.
[–]FEMAcampcounselorDARPA Chief 20 points21 points22 points  (9 children)
upvoted, but I think we should go private for a while first.
[–]OmegaBlue0231☭☭Comrade In Arms☭☭ 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
That could be a good way to see how it goes before just shitting it down.
[–]RhaganaDoomslayerFull Internet Alchemist 4 points5 points6 points  (5 children)
What exactly happens when a sub goes private? I know no one outside of it can see anything, but what happens to the membership? I've never been a part of sub that has done this and the thought of losing a channel to communicate with some of the best people I've met make me all sad panda.
[–]FEMAcampcounselorDARPA Chief 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
That is a problem, as far as I know the only way to let people see private subs is to mod them. With limited permissions because ~le super sneaky gg moles~
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
You don't have to mod them, you can just add them as Approved Contributors. I can show you how later, if need be. That said, you do have to be a mod to approve people as contributors, and that would be a crazy amount of maintenance for you guys to take on. I'm not sure if Toolbox or RES can batch that function (I've never had reason to attempt to do so), but IIRC, vanilla Reddit makes you approve contributors one by one, so it'd be really time-consuming to approve hundreds or thousands of members.
[–]BigBassBoneHence the prepared hugbox 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I'm a member of a couple private subs. Not a mod.
[–]lifestyledSardonic Jester of Woe 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
anyone who isn’t added as an approved submitter would not be able to view the sub, meaning everyone but the mods here would not see anything in this sub but a graphic of a locked door.
[–]RhaganaDoomslayerFull Internet Alchemist 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Ah, I was hoping as much. Thank you!
[–]kissmekindl☭☭Cultural Marxist☭☭ 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I would favour taking us private for a while and seeing what effect it has.
The sub exists for mocking GG, but I'm not laughing very much any more, and I don't think many others are either.
Perhaps going private would deny a little bit of oxygen to these guys, and therefore might actually help.
One thing of concern, though: does keeping it public provide a source of help to those attacked by GG, that we couldn't do if private? (e.g. r/@)
[–]ilikekittensdoyouUndercover Puppy. SHH DON'T TELL 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Going private at first is an excellent idea. I'm all for that.
[–]MrBlueberryMuffinVideo Games are terrible 7 points8 points9 points  (1 child)
I think shutting down the subreddit or making it private is a good idea.
[–]NeonBlack666 12 points13 points14 points  (0 children)
I'm just worried doing that would make the information hard to find. I literally found so much here about gamergate in the beginning and I don't want to take that away from other people.
I just remember being bombarded with all their brigading and going wtf is going on?! It was confusing and disorienting. Then I came here and found out what it was and it cleared a lot up.
[–]ChocolateMilkStuntRacer. Also skeleton. 6 points7 points8 points  (9 children)
Closing Ghazi isn't that bad of an idea, I can live without GG stuff, but is there a different subreddit about the stuff we tag here as [OT]? The general sexism/discrimination/feminism/women stuff sub?
Because for me that would be the biggest loss.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Yeah, same here. That's the kind of thing I'm far more interested in. The random pointing-and-laughing at the stupid KIA thread of the day is pretty boring to me, and Ghazi lately seems to be getting more and more into Reddit / Twitter drama than bigger issues regarding the games industry, harassment, marginalized voices, etc.
[–]john-bigbooteKiss Conspirator (´ε｀ ) 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
/r/againstmensrights dealt with a lot of the MRA stuff in GamerGate before Ghazi existed. The tone is similar to here.
/r/ShitRedditSays deals with general sexism and channer horseshit on reddit.
[–]ChocolateMilkStuntRacer. Also skeleton. 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
/r/againstmensrights looks interesting, thanks :)
[–]FEMAcampcounselorDARPA Chief 1 point2 points3 points  (5 children)
There is /r/GhaziGamer. I didn't make it, but it would be great if it got more traffic.
[–]NeonBlack666 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
It got deader and deader. I tried to post there but it's wasn't natural flipping between these two subs. And then no one was responding so I gave up.
[–]snozberrydrivebySocial Justice NPC 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
/r/SRSGaming exists for more or less the same reason that ghazigamer does, anyway.
[–]Sylocat／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ Social Justice Incubator 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
We can always make another announcement or PR drive or whatever.
[–]OmegaBlue0231☭☭Comrade In Arms☭☭ 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I wouldn't mind if we just shifted over to that and became about general gaming.
[–]ZagdenPro-Dat Ass 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
Wouldn't be opposed, and I like lifestyled's idea too. Go private, foster a ghazi community
[–]NeonBlack666 7 points8 points9 points  (2 children)
What about just readable but no more posting? Private sort of sounds like a good idea but I feel like the information here is well organized and needs to be attainable. It's where a lot of people found more information about gamergate when they didn't know what was going on.
I don't know. I'm with you guys that I wonder if paying attention to these people are doing a disservice.
[–]FEMAcampcounselorDARPA Chief 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
I like this idea more now. :O
Maybe a Weekly/Monthly update thread if GG does some especially awful garbage.
[–]Social_Justice_Wario 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
This idea makes a lot of sense to me. And I really like, that it seems a lot of people seem to be able to get behind this idea. But it could also really suck not to have a place to look up stuff, should GG manage to do something of more impact again. I just really hope, that's not going to be the case.
[–]Moriarty42Hence The Prepared Sock 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
edit: Inspired by the comments, I'm currently more in favor of freezing the board (no new submissions) with a weekly/monthly update post so people who are looking for information can still use this subreddit for that purpose.
I don't have a ton to contribute, and I'm glad that we're talking about this (although we talk about What Is Ghazi on the reg, so I hope we do something). I would just like add that:
Ghazi is, at the moment, providing a discussion ground that Twitter can't. Now, I really, really don't think that Ghazi is the best place or this, but it is the only place that I know of, where Gav could come in and longform explain what was up with the Twitterstorm, or Briana could explain her experiences and thoughts on coffee with Wardell. And the discussion after those posts was pretty good (by Reddit standards).
ON THE OTHER HAND. I have no doubt that a lot of the rabble rabbling that may have necessitated those posts happened in and around Ghazi.
But, the longer form nature of Ghazi is, at the moment, providing something that Twitter conversation can't. I don't know if the Reddit comment system is a good way to do that, but it's what we have.
Long story short, I am in favor of privatizing/freezing Ghazi, but do want to acknowledge that we sometimes can talk ok and could be losing that.
Edit: Also, I think the biggest question that we need to resolves is are we still a circlejerk'n'joke sub because we can be humorous without that, but I think that clinging to that will utterly destroy any larger goals that we might have. The nature of a circlejerk is infinite. If you use that to define Ghazi, you limit Ghazi to be only that.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Also, I think the biggest question that we need to resolves is are we still a circlejerk'n'joke sub because we can be humorous without that, but I think that clinging to that will utterly destroy any larger goals that we might have. The nature of a circlejerk is infinite. If you use that to define Ghazi, you limit Ghazi to be only that.
Really good point, here. I for one would be thrilled to see Ghazi grow beyond circlejerking and mockery, but I think I'm in the minority there. (And that's understandable, since pointing-and-laughing is the stated purpose of the sub and has been since day one.)
[–]salartaThe Spirit of Alberta 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I wouldn't mind Gamerghazi going private for a while, whether that means being able to post in it is selective or nobody but the mods/admins can access it.
I hesitate to say "shut it down" completely only because it's useful for helping GG's victims any time GG tries to ruin their lives. Outside that, I think a lot of people (myself included to an extent) are a little addicted to confronting GG, and that's resulting in actions and confrontations that only make things worse.
[–]MoldyDinosaurCucky The Alpha Sock of Puppington 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I don't think making this subreddit private would have much effect as KiA is mostly focused on off-site e-celeb drama.
[–]socjuswar 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I love the idea of going privet. Edit: Um, that should say private. A privet is a type of shrub.
[–]Zonr_0Sea Lion Tamer 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I'd kind of like it if there was a weekly/monthly "here's the awful shit GG has done lately" thread because it's good to have a record of that stuff. The rest of the subreddit I'd love to see dedicated to social justice related news and maybe in-depth critical game analysis.
A safe space to have interesting in-depth discussions about games that may more may not have anything to do with feminism, but are more involved than the general circlejerk in /r/gaming or the better but still fluffy /r/games (which is also infested with gators). I'd love to see more stuff like your final fantasy conversation in this thread.
edit: I'd also echo others in a full ban on twitter posts and individual witchhunts in general.
[–]RobfathahStatue of Limitations 15 points16 points17 points  (1 child)
To answer your tl;dr, you don't. We're not perfect people, we get angry, especially with stuff we perceive as being shitty behavior from people we actually respect.
Also, there's no "moving on". Gamergate as a movement has been recognized as the massive joke that it is, sure, but all that would happen if all those rando shitlords stopped using the hashtag forever, right now, is a retreat to the corrupted holes in the earth that spawned them to begin with. A retreat back to the 8chans, the stormfronts, the garbage subreddits, what have you. In my opinion, there's no "moving on" until those people are burned out of their shitty little internet houses and relegated back to the relative stone age of having to send each other secretive snail mail newsletters like they did before the Internet became a thing.
I vehemently disagree with Maddy Myers. I think this place COULD turn into a place where we help folks from all walks of life get educated regarding harassment, and how they can protect themselves from it, no matter the source, be it 'gaters, MRAs, shitty internet atheists, what have you.
And that's why reddit as a whole is so fucking frustrating to me. I see a massive community, and I refuse to believe it's mostly made up of the shitty folks that seem to most represent it. So, while I agree that we can do better, I think closing up shop is a terrible fucking idea.
You don't get a tl;dr, but I will apologize for that fucking text wall.
Edit: Let me also say this, it's not meant to be a personal attack on OP or anybody else here. If anybody reads it as such, my apologies, but it's not what I meant to do.
[–]Twilightdusk -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
In my opinion, there's no "moving on" until those people are burned out of their shitty little internet houses and relegated back to the relative stone age of having to send each other secretive snail mail newsletters like they did before the Internet became a thing.
So why is this the reaction to GG as a whole, while:
I see a massive community, and I refuse to believe it's mostly made up of the shitty folks that seem to most represent it.
Is your reaction to Ghazi being seen in a negative light?
[–]john-bigbooteKiss Conspirator (´ε｀ ) 31 points32 points33 points  (1 child)
I know supposed allies like hanging out over there, but it's pretty damaging b/c GG ppl hang out there ALL THE TIME looking for targets.
This is disingenuous. There are people here that comment because they have been targets. Saying "you shouldn't talk to each other because your enemies might hear it" is just as silencing as GamerGate is.
It just emphasizes all the more to me that for some people all of this "drama" is just a fun entertainment, like gaming's TMZ or some shit
This is reading Ghazi the way GamerGate reads Ghazi.
Irony as a response to abuse is just as valid as therapy or taking a vacation or crying or talking it out or any other form of catharsis. My real name reddit and Twitter accounts have been idle since a photo of my family appeared on a /gg/ digging thread, with posters there sifting through my Twitter photos looking for whatever. This was in response - as far as I was able to tell - to me retweeting someone I used to work with and having my job in the industry as well as some far-left political stuff in my Twitter bio. Abandoning my accounts was definitely a dumb overreaction I was having, pretty easy to tell looking back.
My response was to make dumb jokes on Ghazi about how ridiculous GamerGate's behavior is. If you think I'm just doing it for the love of "drama" or internet points or retweets, please stop.
ETA Harper sums it up here.
[–]PISSLEMONSIT BURNS 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
I agree with you entirely, especially Harper's post. I'm always baffled by the replies to shut this place down or to stop doing XYZ because it's too depressing or whatever. No offense, but I feel like some people take this place too seriously, just as bad as some GGers take KIA.
If some people hate this place so much or feel like it's so negative, then why not take a break, visit other subs? I'm all up in /r/MakeupAddiction and other small subs I enjoy, if you just stay in one place too long you're gonna feel run down eventually, even in "good" subs.
[–]ThunderinJaysus 27 points28 points29 points  (2 children)
I was looking for a post like this. Saw a lot of folks I follow on Twitter complaining about the subreddit, and I honestly was surprised. I mean, I think most of us here genuinely concerned about the issues raised by GG's targets and support them in our own ways (Patreons, buying their games, sharing their work). To me, the sub is a way to hang out w/ long-form commentary (as opposed to Twitter). Nothing more, nothing less.
[–]FrogBlastTheGameCore 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
Have upvotes.
[–]sp4nningtonCultural Marxism Propagandist -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
I think that some of the problem is that our frontpage can at times look rather aggressive.
I get that we're technically about mocking GG, but some of the titles for posts can be, in my perception at least, a bit sensationalist and extrapolate from one knuckledragging shitgoblin who is a supporter of GG, to all supporters of GG being knuckledragging shitgoblins.
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 11 points12 points13 points  (1 child)
I was considering linking Maddy's comments as well. I can sort of understand seeing the "list of victims" linked at the bottom of the Ghazi Wiki and thinking it's a curated list, but in reality it's just linking to a 4 month-old thread that's not maintained, hence the prepared... I mean, hence it being incomplete.
The "entertainment" portion discussed later on I find baffling. I can't grok how someone can come in here and think we highlight GG's harassment of people just to amuse ourselves. Or that we don't consider GG victims to be human? I mean, WTF?
[–]metroidcompositeSJW GTA developer. 소녀시대 화이팅! 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
Fair point, and yeah, I'm removing the "list of victims" from the wiki for now. Per Maddy's comments, it sounds like it's definitely not well-enough curated. (And even if it was, I'm not sure it's something we want to link).
[–]GaylenAnd injustice deliciously flaired! Be prepared! 29 points30 points31 points  (5 children)
I'm not really impressed by this 'Make this private or else we encourage them!' line of thinking.
Ghazi didn't exist when this shit started. They didn't need a subreddit talking about them for Anita to be bombarded for 2 fucking years.
[–]socialjusticeorcLiterally Internet Stalin ☭ 14 points15 points16 points  (1 child)
Hostile dudebro's were around before Ghazi and it certainly will be around after Ghazi too.
[–]GaylenAnd injustice deliciously flaired! Be prepared! 5 points6 points7 points  (0 children)
And NEOgaf mods made the same 'They'll get bored if they don't have our posts to read' case when the GG thread there was shut down.
Anyone notice a drop in activity when that thread was locked?
[–]rawtatoHence The Well-Fed Slark 9 points10 points11 points  (2 children)
Good point. Not just Anita, too. Remember elevatorgate? blurgh! That shit's ongoing. Even before that and before that and before that. All this festering MRA nonsense seems to be consistently bubbling up.
I mean, making the sub private for a week or three could be an interesting experiment, see how the gators trundle along without us poking fun at them.
[–]GaylenAnd injustice deliciously flaired! Be prepared! 5 points6 points7 points  (1 child)
And Jennifer Helper. Julie Larson-Green. Donglegate. Did the assholes who harassed those women need a small subreddit that supported the women to motivate them to be assholes to those women?
I have a problem with the idea that the groups who organize, even in small ways like a fucking subreddit, to push back when marginalized groups are targeted are somehow contributing to the problem. Spinning it that way would probably be a really good way to silence people who genuinely don't want to do harm and leaves a wide open floor for anyone with malicious intentions.
[–]rawtatoHence The Well-Fed Slark 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
That's all very true. If gg is a blip in the wider gaming audience, ghazi is an even more minute blip. There are far, far worse subreddits out there. If any harm has come from ghazi it's been deconstructed and talked about like god damned grown-ups.
The kind of rhetoric that tries to say that those who point out shitty behaviour are the same or worse than those doing the shitty behaviour often reminds me of the whole "PC gone mad" line of thinking.
As long as people posting here are introspective enough and always remember the human, it'd be sad to see ghazi shut down. It reminds me that there are good folks on the internet.
[–]PrincessAmericaBased Trollfic Author 10 points11 points12 points  (1 child)
I think, if anything, going private or shutting this place down would be the worst option we can take. It won't slow GG down. If anything, they'll get even worse when they think no one's watching.
[–]FEMAcampcounselorDARPA Chief 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
If anything, they'll get even worse when they think no one's watching.
I worry about this too, that's why our first course of action should definitely not be a shutdown. :P
[–]DeltaXYZILLUMINATI △ SHILL 24 points25 points26 points  (20 children)
Less twitter drama maybe? "Don't touch the poop"
We really need to relax the TB Hate-boner among other things, as horrible as he is.
[–]ChocolateMilkStuntRacer. Also skeleton. 19 points20 points21 points  (4 children)
Maybe a Twitter Megathread (weekly?) and ban on Twitter posts?
[–]DanyLektro...And Social Justice for All. 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
That's a great idea, actually.
[–]facecube#THEBEARDSPIRACY 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
/r/badhistory has regular moratoriums on topics that are getting spammed to death. Maybe we should try something similar here.
[–]RhaganaDoomslayerFull Internet Alchemist 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I third this.
[–]JanvsDislike Collectivist 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
This is a good idea.
[–]casersatzBASED SHILL 8 points9 points10 points  (10 children)
I'm all for this. I don't even find TB interesting as a game reviewer, let alone as a gamergater worth arguing. But still, at least he has some degree of cogency to his thought, despite being wrong.
Would it be any better to dissect every new Sargon of Akkad video instead? Hardly. I would rather parse every TB tweet than analyze some man screaming at his computer screen for fifteen minutes.
[–]NeonBlack666 11 points12 points13 points  (6 children)
Both TB and Sargon bore me to tears. Would love to never hear of either again.
But this is just like, my opinion man.
[–]casersatzBASED SHILL 1 point2 points3 points  (5 children)
Yeah. Me too. Unfortunately, you need to meet the ideological enemies that you have; not the interesting ones that you wish you had :/
[–]NeonBlack666 1 point2 points3 points  (4 children)
Aurini and Owen are kind of fun.
[–]casersatzBASED SHILL 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
Oh, but they're not gators... remember?
[–]NeonBlack666 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
Nah they are.
[–]casersatzBASED SHILL 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
/s
[–]NeonBlack666 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I know, but I just like validating myself.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
To me, the stuff TB says and does that GG related is much more germane than some random Gator on Twitter, because like it or not, he's a well-known and influential (to a degree) figure in the industry. He's lending the GG phenomenon a veneer of legitimacy by being a defacto leader of that 'movement,' so in my mind, his actions are worth more attention / awareness than some teenager's 8chan posts are.
[–]casersatzBASED SHILL -2 points-1 points0 points  (1 child)
That's the tricky thing. Gamergate will endure without TB, but not without the teenager on 8chan. TB, however, can be reasoned with (in theory), but not the teenager on 8chan. I cannot imagine a possible TB abdication changing all that much.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Hmm, I think we're talking about two different things - which makes sense because my remarks are kind of lacking context. I don't want to derail too far, but I actually think it's the other way around. A random individual person with an anon account on 8chan is not particularly important or significant in broader sense of the industry itself - or the developers, writers, and consumers that it includes. The TotalBiscuit Effect, though? That's lending this nonsense a platform of an established voice which both reinforces existing attitudes about GG and serves as a channel to draw in new recruits. I don't think 8chan or KiA are all that appealing to the random passerby, but a lot of folks who might otherwise ignore GG altogether would be more likely to pay it more attention if they see their favorite YouTube games reviewer speaking about it positively, or spinning (as he always does) nuanced situations into "attacks on gamers" while pointing out targets for his loyal subjects to attack.
I don't know; I'm not being entirely articulate here and I haven't thought through it all to come up with a coherent summary of why I feel like TB's behavior is more worthy to track and place in context, but that's part of it.
EDIT: Regarding defection and so forth - I'm not trying to force TB to change his behavior. I'd like him to keep making his own decisions about who he supports and why, and I hope someday he has reason to think back on all this and realize he's thrown his support in with a really toxic phenomenon, but he has to come to that realization himself. Dude's far, far too stubborn to hear that from anyone else.
[–]NeonBlack666 -1 points0 points1 point  (3 children)
TB Hate-boner among other things, as horrible as he is.
We have. Thankfully. Could only add him to some kind of ban list where he's not allowed to be brought up at all. Would be fine by me. There was a good month where it was getting awful with all the TB and Milo posts (although the poetry was fun for a few days).
[–]an_oni_moose 9 points10 points11 points  (1 child)
I disagree. TB may not be the worst gator, or the biggest within gamergate. But he's definitely one of the bigger names outside of gamergate. People like Sargon have an audience composed entirely of gators. But TB has this pretence of neutrality, and a large non-gator following. He's lending them credibility at this point in a way all the preachers-to-the-choir never could.
[–]NeonBlack666 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
I agree that he is bad and important to gamergate. But I just don't think talking about him helps. I wonder if it's giving him attention and more fans too.
[–]slipshod_alibiReptillian Puppetmaster 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
There's options in the AutoMod that could make this possible, I think, with minimal effort
[–]Cielle 16 points17 points18 points  (9 children)
If I'm understanding Randi correctly here, I agree with her viewpoint, or at least the viewpoint she's describing. I'm really tired of hearing about how we aren't nice enough or patient enough about a group of people which does horrible abusive shit all the time, every day.
"I hate seeing people talk about abuse" is exactly what I'm hearing.
[–]OmegaBlue0231☭☭Comrade In Arms☭☭ 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
There's a lot of things I'm not happy that Ghazi has done, talking about abuse is not one of them.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
FWIW, I've made comments that could be read the way you're characterizing those comments, but mine aren't about being nice to harassers, or avoiding talking about abuse. (If anything, I think we should talk more about the cost and less about the stupid comments on KiA, but the latter is basically the stated purpose of Ghazi.) When I say "we should be more thoughtful," I don't mean 'kinder to Gators,' I mean thinking through the situations we're reacting to before we throw someone under the bus for being ideologically impure. Especially when that reaction is based on a handful of tweets.
[–]an_oni_moose 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
I mean thinking through the situations we're reacting to before we throw someone under the bus for being ideologically impure. Especially when that reaction is based on a handful of tweets.
That's definitely something Ghazi could have been better at recently.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Right. I can't speak for anyone else (and I agree with what /u/Cielle is saying), but when I've said things like "let's slow down and consider the broader context" I'm not referring to GG-related harassment, I'm referring to giving people who aren't die-hard pro-GG (like 8bitBecca, MiracleofSound, etc) the benefit of the doubt.
[–]nervewrackingEthics school drop-out 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
yea, this. imho, we can be super critical of people we support--this is necessary--but flying off the handle over a meeting we don't know about def. shows that ghazi is exhausting its patience and needs to dial it back.
[–]bradamantium92feminist gazpacho 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
That's not what I'm getting at all. And then she's accusing him of starting a mob against Ghazi's mods...where is that? It's not really here.
Jay seems to be saying the problem is that there's a certain level of commodification of suffering going on here. We're all looking on, aghast and angry, but not really doing anything. Which is a problem I think a lot of communities on the internet need to address, Ghazi among them. But he's not just saying "No, guys, you need to stop, you're bumming me out."
[–]Cielle 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
What would you count as doing something? Because I see this subreddit filling a couple roles as-is:
  • It keeps people who may be at risk apprised of goings-on that might affect them.
  • It acts as a place of support for people who are being targeted or who are feeling discouraged by the bigotry present in many gaming communities.
Raising awareness and moral support are commonly dismissed as slacktivism, but they are actually important things to do, and they do serve to promote ideas and to help people feel better.
[–]bradamantium92feminist gazpacho 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I don't have any ideas on this, I think we're doing what we're intended to do and that's enough. I'm just pointing out that I don't think Jay is trying to say Ghazi's a sordid mess he'd rather not see is all. I wanted to reinterpret the comment some 'cause I think we're (edit: we as in the subreddit and people currently discussing it, I mean) dangerously close to falling to some really polarized rhetoric rather than an open discussion.
[–]lastres0rtMy Webcomic's Too Good for Brad Wardell 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Needs more upvotes.
I'm confused as to what's going on here, but part of that is that all I'm seeing is when I went to bed Ghazi was fine, and now there's a bunch of GG'ers patting themselves on the back and claiming victory because they made a Ghazi mod feel shitty.
The place isn't perfect, and this kind of convo needs to happen, but the dramatic change in the atmosphere makes me suspicious.
[–]FrogBlastTheGameCore 8 points9 points10 points  (0 children)
Separately from my other post, for those of us who need a way that isn't twittershit (because twitter is shit) to get support from a likeminded community, what exactly do you propose?
[–]salartaThe Spirit of Alberta 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
Well, first, I'll just say I think there's a certain element trying to influence Ghazi that really isn't part of Ghazi.
Anyway, I think a lot of people are focused intensely on the trees and not looking at the forest. When you spend every second looking at every minute detail and acting or reacting based only one that specific case, things can happen that actually do more harm in the bigger picture.
This is where what happened to Brianna comes into play. Context and perspective are crucial, and I think a lot of people that decided to harshly judge her failed to take the time to try to understand where she was coming from and empathize with her. I'm hoping a lot of those same people have cooler heads now and are more receptive to having that pointed out about them now than I think they would've been at the time.
As for the list of victims, that's... tricky to judge. She makes a very good case for why it's a bad thing, but there are other cases that can be made for why it's necessary. Does having that list amount to giving GGers a "list of accomplishments" and a convenient spot to see who they "should attack?" Or does the list get across the enormity of the problem?
One thing I can say, everyone knows GG doxxes, threatens and harasses people, so do we really need the names? Or would numbers alone suffice? And if the list is kept, it's crucial that it 1) has a disclaimer that it's not exhaustive and may miss people, and 2) invites regular feedback, especially for any errors such as misgendering.
[–]DegatagaGlitter and Doom 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Well, first, I'll just say I think there's a certain element trying to influence Ghazi that really isn't part of Ghazi.
THIS.
[–]RhaganaDoomslayerFull Internet Alchemist 7 points8 points9 points  (3 children)
I don't necessarily agree with the idea that us closing or going private would do anything to slow them down or even bring them to a halt. In fact, I highly doubt it would. Those that are still in GG are operating on a perpetual motion engine of hate.
As for the recent dust ups, I think the reason why these are standing out is that they are really the only two blemishes on our track record that happened within days of each other. As others have pointed out (and if I'm wrong, please correct me) the incident with MiracleofSound was one person being a bit shitty. And as for Brianna, well... I'm still disappointed. But I think some, especially outside of this sub, just didn't like the idea of anyone having a negative opinion of that situation. Yes, some people lost it, but a lot of people had reasonable observations on why it was a bad... thing.
People here get tired of TB or Milo posts because they seem to happen in clusters that last 72 to 96 hours, since those terribly verbose smegma crusts love the sound of their own words. They'll say a thing and not let go of it for awhile. I'm not exactly sure how well a ban on them would work. Maybe limit posts about them or any other not-leader to only very specific circumstances. Or to mods only, leaving it up them to decide what's worth posting.
As for improving the sub as a whole? I have a thought: We just go full on geek culture sub while simultaneously ignoring GG. Maybe even just focus on everything gaming while leaving all the gator garbage at the door. Maybe even feature user reviews of games, subscriber discussion on mechanics and features, maybe try to get devs and gaming personalities (like VO actors or critics) to come in and do AMAs. Hell, we know we have a few game design students here - myself included - maybe make this a space to share ideas and work with others and get feedback from non-designer subbies.
[–]GaylenAnd injustice deliciously flaired! Be prepared! 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Maybe limit posts about them or any other not-leader to only very specific circumstances. Or to mods only, leaving it up them to decide what's worth posting.
In another community I frequent, which is also user-submitted content, there are a couple of people who take it upon themselves to post a 'round up.' They grab several links, put them all in the OP, and that keeps the discussion consolidated. Plus, it doesn't clog up the front page.
Maybe breaking stories would warrant an initial post and then a "Reactions" post that should cover the followup op-eds or storifies, etc.
[–]Sylocat／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ Social Justice Incubator 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
As for improving the sub as a whole? I have a thought: We just go full on geek culture sub while simultaneously ignoring GG. Maybe even just focus on everything gaming while leaving all the gator garbage at the door. Maybe even feature user reviews of games, subscriber discussion on mechanics and features, maybe try to get devs and gaming personalities (like VO actors or critics) to come in and do AMAs. Hell, we know we have a few game design students here - myself included - maybe make this a space to share ideas and work with others and get feedback from non-designer subbies.
I do kinda like this idea. Even though it would mean I made /r/GhaziGamer for nothing. :(
[–]RhaganaDoomslayerFull Internet Alchemist 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Delete one? lol (that lol is through cringeface btw).
[–]nocommentyet 17 points18 points19 points  (1 child)
I've started and deleted so many comments over the last couple of days but I'm going to try to say what I mean now. Now people are talking about shutting down Ghazi or making it disappear into a "private" hole where no one new will ever find it. Please no.
If it means nothing to you anymore or you're not really into it anymore you are free to leave, take a break, whatever. I've done it before, others do it all the time. It's a good and healthy thing. But don't just take away the subreddit!
I think people are actually doing an excellent job with that "quasi-inciting" and pushing back against anything that can turn into a witchhunt. We're all more aware now. Yes, that means there have been conflicts and sometimes people have to get banned. That's ok! Conflict is not bad! In fact, these conflicts only exist because we're not letting things turn into witch-hunts, rather, people are willing to argue with each other. But you have to let conflict be over and stop bringing things up over and over again.
People can learn to temper their language and treat each other with more nuance and respect if as a community we decide to push for that as a norm. I've seen communities change for the better, communities larger than this one, and this one isn't that bad.
Now what really got me to write this comment was my need to defend the existence of GamerGhazi. There is no other place on the web like it. Like it or not, the influence of the Gamergate controversy, the fallout from it, and the push for positive change are ongoing. There is Ghazi, and there is Twitter, and that's it if you want to avoid forums and comments infested with Gators, and Twitter ain't shit. I mean, it certainly serves it's purpose but it's also a hotzone of harassment and drama. It's also the source of many of the conflicts that are making people question the state of Ghazi, from the Brianna Wu thing to whatever happened with MiracleofSound. Even now, amaninblack is on Twitter talking down on Ghazi and not here where he could actually write something nuanced about it. And it's causing trouble, because it's only 142 emotion-laden characters at a time. Twitter seems very dramatic and sometimes a dramatic push is needed, but the fact that it's Twitter drama that leads to much of the drama here makes me think that we need to cut down on Twitter and not Ghazi.
So I'd support the Twitter mega-thread, unless something important happens in a Tweet and the Tweet deserves it's own post (this rarely happens, when something major happens on Twitter it's usually reported at more length elsewhere). Twitlongers and storifies are better.
But we can't lose Ghazi. If we shut down Ghazi last month, there'd be nowhere harassment and sealion-free where we could have discussed the great counter-harassment initiatives that have been announced recently, such as the Online Abuse Prevention Initiative or Anita's moving video. The tidal change against Gamergate that happened at the GDC also couldn't be discussed, because I must emphasize the fact that everywhere else there are Gators and sealions fucking things up and that means getting into fights and tedious conversations. And I personally don't get anything out of fighting with them, but I get a lot out of what I read here. Just some of the discussions we have continue to educate me.
There is also a lot of dissemination of more academic and in-depth discussions of harassment and Gamergate that gets posted here. This is a good repository. And the comments are pretty good here too, which is why I personally don't support "read only". It's not that bad you guys!!
Yeah, maybe Roguestar and Sargon and the other lesser e-celebs need to go the way of Milo and TB: discussed when they do something especially significant or egregious. I actually enjoy "gators being silly" more and I think there's less rancor in those threads. But also, people can just ignore posts they don't like. I still never read anything TB says about anything, I just read the comments here and that's stretching me to my limits.
Finally, this is one of few places where Gamergate's victims, a list that grows daily, get the benefit of the doubt at least and sympathetic support at best. I continue to believe this is very important.
Edit to add Tl;dr: Ghazi is important and interesting, please don't take it away.
Edit 2: Ok, after reading that Tweet and subsequent comments by Maddy Myers, which were inciting, mean, unnuanced, fucking rude as hell, and inaccurate (everything y'all are worried about here), and reading all of the nasty comments below it, someone needs to fucking educate me as to why I should give a good hotdamn what she has to say? Why are these Twitter people constantly held up as the exemplars we need to follow? Why are their little bon mots supposed to be words of wisdom we need to learn by? Look at us examining ourselves and being all "woe is us, we is terrible" and shit and then I read that it's because of commentary like that? Ghazi is disgusting, really? I tried, I really tried damn it, but then I read that. It's Twitter that's the damn problem, and I'm out.
[–]DegatagaGlitter and Doom 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Yes.
To all of what you posted, yes.
[–]RacecarlockSocial Justice Sharknado 8 points9 points10 points  (1 child)
Well... I know we're here to laugh, but we need to remember something. Three women are still literally out of a house because of gamergate. I think that we need to look at this movement as more than just whiny babies, because one of them might take it too far and actually go to one of these women's houses and commit a real crime.
If that did happen, I think it would open a floodgate. Suddenly someone gets beat up in real life by xbox fanboys for owning a PS4, or the PC people start rounding people up in camps because master race.
But more importantly, how often do you send these women messages of support? On here? On twitter? I think we need to remember here that 3 women are scared out of their minds, even though they're refusing to back down like total badasses. They need as much comfort and support as they can, and I think we can provide that. Zoe and brianna are already here and know that they can talk to us when they need to. Anita's still out there, though, unaware that there's a safe place where she can discuss what she wants to without getting 9000 more twitter notifications. We need to reach out to these women as much as we can, and if you're already doing so, good for you.
[–]NeonBlack666 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Anita's still out there, though, unaware that there's a safe place where she can discuss what she wants to without getting 9000 more twitter notifications.
I'm sure she knows of ghazi.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
Yeah, I would love to see some changes here on Ghazi. I realize I'm in the minority, but the daily drama or ridiculousness on Twitter or some other subreddit just isn't that interesting to me. I'm going to paste part of a comment I made the other day that's relevant:
I kind of want a space that's somewhat similar to Ghazi, but that's less focused on what stupid things KiA said today, or what some random idiot Gator posted on Twitter, and more focused on industry-wide issues with marginalized populations and underserved (and unheard) voices in games and tech. I'm personally more interested in broad trends that impact the adults working in the industry, in the role of us as gamers and consumers, and in more significant actors than I am in the 8chan antics of xxNinjaSwag420xx and his anime avatar. (I do think laughing at the ridiculousness of some of that is a good thing, but it's just not where I find myself the most engaged lately.)
I see a some comments and threads here on Ghazi that are really deeply embedded in cross-Reddit drama, or lamenting "how this makes us look" and stuff like that, and I really couldn't care less what KiA or the denizens of any other ridiculous subreddit think of this one. By the same token, I'm not particularly interested in what people here on Ghazi think of some random dude on KiA. I'm way more interested in the systemic issues than in individual acts of stupidity, though they can be amusing at times. I just don't feel particularly good about pointing-and-laughing, anymore. It's wearing thin.
Where that might lead us, I don't know. I could see making this sub private, I suppose, but I'm not sure what purpose that really serves. Why would making the sub so nobody else can see it improve the content of the sub? I'm more in favor of broadening the focus of Ghazi and leaving some of the cross-Reddit drama behind, but I doubt that's likely to happen, since that change would fundamentally contradict the stated purpose of this subreddit.
[–]pixelotlSocial Justice Yian Kut-Ku 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I'd agree with that. There's too much "subreddit mocking another subreddit" thing here, maybe too many comments that imitate gator rhetoric for the sake of a joke, but look like gator comment out of context. And, while I'm at it, the name "GamerGhazi" is... ambiguous. The kind of a name you'd have to explain to a stranger, especially if the subreddit strives to be about industry-wide issues. In short, there are certainly some elements of an echo chamber here.
[–]STUCK_STUCK_STUCKsailor justice moon ☾ 10 points11 points12 points  (2 children)
doesn't this sub have this discussion every couple of weeks or so
i don't have any other respite from the gator bullshit i deal with on the daily
[–]NeonBlack666 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
What are you dealing with (just curious)?
[–]STUCK_STUCK_STUCKsailor justice moon ☾ 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
guys who believe being a female body and female voice in an MMO is a walk in the park because you get attention and free shit. because unwanted attention from people with designs on my virtual vagina is why i play MMOs
[–]bradamantium92feminist gazpacho 16 points17 points18 points  (0 children)
The MiracleOfSound thing was primarily one person, who I think ended up getting mad over how some of that dude's followers went after them and made that the guy's problem. The Brianna Wu deal was miscommunication.
I'm not sure exactly what Maddy Myers expects a place like this to be. She complained (validly, I think) about the list of victims, then complained that it was removed. She linked some thread with ONE person with ONE apparent upvote saying they hate Maddy Meyers as if we, as a sub, hate her. Most of all, she seems to think we're all just here for some social justice headrush, but I know that's not the case for myself at least.
Finally, the Jay Allen thing is kind of an inevitable problem for a sub like this. A subreddit like this isn't going to see a ton of diversity in opinions. We're not dealing with something that has a whole lot of nuance. We're all going to agree, especially in general terms, especially against most of what KiA is saying.
I don't really know what changes we should make! I don't think it's really as simple as just making some changes! We'd all like to be more positive, do more, what have you, but what more can we do via this subreddit than keep on top of the mound of bullshit?
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 13 points14 points15 points  (13 children)
Another thing I think everyone should keep in mind, just because Maddy Meyer's has been a target of gamergate and opposes them does not mean we have to agree with everything she says. Let's not destroy ourselves just because a handful of people on twitter have a warped view of what this sub is.
[–]RhaganaDoomslayerFull Internet Alchemist 4 points5 points6 points  (7 children)
I think what's upsetting people is that other prominent voices are agreeing with her. Jay Allen and SpaceDad among them.
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 2 points3 points4 points  (6 children)
Jay Allen is definitely saying his own separate thing about Ghazi, seeing as how he's just as much a member as the rest of us. He has not been echoing Meyers' opinion of Ghazi being plain shit.
[–]RhaganaDoomslayerFull Internet Alchemist 2 points3 points4 points  (5 children)
Hmmm. Point taken. But he does seem to share some of her thoughts on how we're shit allies. https://twitter.com/a_man_in_black/status/575723203718463488
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 2 points3 points4 points  (3 children)
Then he thinks of himself as a shit ally? Despite the wording, I don't think he's calling out anyone other than the writer of that post, a post which did not get seriously upvoted by Ghazi while its rebuttal did.
[–]RhaganaDoomslayerFull Internet Alchemist 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
True, but he brings this up now, two months after it happened, as if to support Myers.
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Certainly it fed into her negative opinion of Ghazi.
[–]DanyLektro...And Social Justice for All. 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
He probably didn't see the post initially. She shared it as an example of why she doesn't like Ghazi - though she kind of implied that this sort of opinion was the majority and then took one personal thing said about her as "look at how terrible they are!" despite the fact that it's a 2 month old opinion with a total of 4 points..
..and 17 points to the person who responded with, "yeah that's not cool".
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Gators have now followed the link from Maddy's and Jay's tweets to vote brigade that 2 month-old thread. They're upvoting the post that hates Maddy and downvoting the rebuttal of it.
[–]Enleat+1;dr 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
I dunno, i'ts pretty demoralising to me when people tell me i'm a shit ally out of nowhere, because i don't know what i did wrong because i haven't had the same experience.
I want to be better, and the idea that Ghazi is an utter shtihole dissapoints and saddens me greatly.
This has been my safe space for as long as my involvement in this mess as been. It's far from perfect and i hope it gets better though.
[–]newl-asjw trans otherkin tumblr boogieman 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
Im new so i dont quite understand teh context of calling people who go into ghazi shitty allies? as far as ive seen ghazi is pretty good idk
[–]PrincessAmericaBased Trollfic Author 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I agree with this point. Just because one person doesn't like the way we insult GG here doesn't mean there aren't other people targeted by GG who feel relieved that a place exists where rational people mock the awfulness, like a sort of "no, normal people do not think the harassment you are getting is OK."
[–]BadKeyMachineCultural Snarksism 5 points6 points7 points  (2 children)
One thing I'd like to say is that when this kinds of threads pop up there's always talk about why we're so self-analyzing, why we hold ourselves to such a high standard, etc.
My personal opinion is that we very much should be holding ourselves to a very high standard. Because I want this to be a place where only positive things happen. That means these kinds of threads, these kinds of comments, this kind of constant self-checking is, in my mind, appropriate.
That's just my opinion though, and clearly not everyone feels that way. So it's just a matter of what we want Ghazi to be. What I do these days is just avoid those threads that start to tease at witch-hunting and demonizing, because I just don't want to be a part of that. But if that's what Ghazi as a whole wants, you know, so be it, I'll just stay out or only interact with the lighter threads. And, yes, my tolerance point for that stuff is very, very low. That's on purpose and I'm completely aware of that. That's at the very core of my personal political philosophy. No dehumanizing, no witch hunts, no ends-justify-the-means. I see the world and the people in it as complex, messy, grey. Please don't tell me this is false equivalency, because it's not.
On the side bar it says Ghazi is about pointing and laughing. And it is, but there are some dead serious threads on here. And that's appropriate, what we're dealing with can have severe consequences in the real world. But, you know, just be aware that with serious threads...comes serious responsibility? Spider-man refs maybe?
[–]an_oni_moose 3 points4 points5 points  (1 child)
I think Ghazi should avoid witch-hunting and demonizing completely regardless of what some people might want. We're not KiA. We don't have to let this place turn sour in the name of freeze peach.
[–]BadKeyMachineCultural Snarksism 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
Yeah, no argument here. But part of that I think is always going to be keeping close tabs on it and regular discussions like this.
tone police on the beat 24/7 baby
[–]ccdc1138Shrilly Demanded Respects 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
I would imagine it might be more prudent to invite people to elaborate further on their criticisms of the sub to see if things are salvageable prior to just shutting down shop based on a handful of tweets.
[–]u93o 5 points6 points7 points  (1 child)
I do think Ghazi serves an important purpose. Without it, there would be a lot more untruths and GG's lies would be far harder to debunk. (The fact that 6 months on, the "but she slept with five guys for a review" is still a regular comment says it all.)
Also, Ghazi shutting down would embolden GG further because they'd feel nobody's watching them. In short, they'd see this as a victory.
[–]ToscacakeSweet Socjus from Sexsensual Scandinavia 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Also, Ghazi shutting down would embolden GG further because they'd feel nobody's watching them. In short, they'd see this as a victory.
Well yeah, but the again, who gives a fuck about what gators think of us? They would still be a marginalized group within the gaming community. In the case of Ghazi shutting down, I'd say we let the children play in their excrement-filled pool, celebrating their so-called "victory".
[–]YinEmissaryI'm into survival 11 points12 points13 points  (2 children)
Doesn't mean I think anybody is "evil" or whatever. Just means you all have some shit to work on.
She may be giving harsh criticism, but it's constructive criticism and we really need to consider what she says since we're just the bystanders to the nightmare. I thank Maddy for being so honest with us.
[–]snozberrydrivebySocial Justice NPC 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
Also, the point of "Anyone who sits around all day everyday looking at harassment of other people is sick." Certainly gave me a moment of introspection.
[–]YinEmissaryI'm into survival 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
That makes it sound like mocking GG is getting entertainment out of people being victimized, which wasn't my motive at least. I was always interested in seeing people like Randi fight back and make something positive out of the mess, hence my current flair. I see them not as damsels in distress, but heroes, and follow them in hopes that the MRA harassers will eventually be defeated.
Maybe I am sick for treating it as a narrative like that. But that was my motive for posting here, believing mockery to be empowering rather than degrading. Of course, its impact is not for me to decide.
[–]GottaLoveIgnoranceHm? Oh, I'm sorry. Are these your ethics? 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
Honestly? I'm not really sure what we could do to be better. I mean, I see somethings that we should do. Taking from something Maddie said, we really should take away the Anita Sarkeesian thing up there (of course I find it funny that it's the same joke SRS made yet they didn't get anything for that, probably because we're more active). But I've seen two women that I respect greatly mention the same sentiment, so maybe we should get rid of the sub.
I've seen some mention how wonderful it is here, and that it helped them, but does it really? I'll also agree with some people though, that I think a few people blow these problems way out of proportion. I mean, we could become a "celebration" sub, in the sense that we celebrate the various tenets we support (which I'm going to severely disagree with those that think most of us are in this for the "rollercoaster." I mean, who the fuck would ride the GG coaster for amusement other than GGers? Whatever).
'Ghazi has been around for a while, and I think we can change the nature of the subreddit. Personally, that moderation policy we had a while ago that Lifestyled mentioned? I would like that to be put into place, and those that dissent with it will have to just deal, as we are getting a hilarious amount of traffic for such a specific and small sub.
On a more personal note, I am getting annoyed at some things 'Ghazi does. For one, we're a little bit too happy and willing to use ableism. We use crazy and insane far too often. We also have a ridiculous thing with otherkin. I've not seen much of it, but we're too lenient about it.
I also don't feel we should "shut it down" though, and here's my reasoning for that: we have the ability to change. I wouldn't give up fighting racism, sexism, transphobia, misogyny, ableism and those sorts of things just because the mechanism for doing such has flaws. We should take Maddie's criticism to heart, and really think about how to change. We have the ability to, but if it really, earnestly seems like we can't fix this? Yes. We should go.
[–]newl-asjw trans otherkin tumblr boogieman 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
We use crazy and insane far too often
I agree with this and use of similar words, I don't like to object to people using things like this because it normally ends with me being called 2 sensitive or something, but.
[–]Difushal 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I can't say that I want to see this sub change very much. I'd like to see things like the situation with Brianna Wu not repeated, and I would like to see people try to avoid the collateral damage that can come from what we do here.
However, I don't really want this place to be an organizing base for action. Some of you may see it as a resource for that, an untapped group of people to mobilize to do good work. I'm not really here for that. I don't feel comfortable with something that, upon reading further into this thread, starts to feel an awful lot like trying to rally an Anti-GG.
[–]Sharrukin-of-Akkad(No, not him. The other one.) 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
My perspective: I'm not a VG developer, but I am a writer, editor, and occasional artist, so I work on the edge of the same creative space. I need to know what the trolls are up to, what's offending them day to day, how people are reacting to them. Not just so I can see opportunities to help make things better, but also so I can avoid coming under fire from any source through ignorance.
So I find places like this, for all their shortcomings, a useful source. They tend to get shut down after a while, though, because the problem is so bloody negative and depressing.
No proposals to make things better, although yeah, a little restraint before we make things worse for the people who are already feeling the brunt of the problem would be wise. Just saying that some of us still find some of the information and discussion useful.
[–]Zand_Kilch 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I saw KIA is celebrating victory but the best part is they're all still jerks no matter what :)
[–]jbradfieldCishet Trash 3 points4 points5 points  (2 children)
Somewhat-disjointed thoughts:
The Problem
I think Ghazi is largely built on negativity. When GG was at peak volume I think it had value as an emotional outlet--a relatively safe space to vent anger and outrage--but now it's not so much a vent as (to mix my metaphors) a scab that we keep picking at and freshly infecting.
Ghazi is essentially a response to GG and as GG's effectiveness declines so does the value of Ghazi. Now that GG has been reduced to a rotten, unsalvageable core, what do we really have to talk about? No amount of grousing on this subreddit is going to get 8chan dismantled, or get TotalBiscuit banned from YouTube. By design, Ghazi is not a means of preventing or curbing harassment; by its nature, I doubt it can ever be turned into such. No amount of exposure on Ghazi is going to further tarnish the reputation of GG because GG's reputation is at rock bottom. What's basically happening, now that GG is "dead" on a cultural scale, is that Ghazi has become a "safe space" for people to expose themselves to the inner mechanisms of a harassment machine and meet hatred with hatred.
As other people on this board and on Twitter have noted, Ghazi is in serious danger of becoming a breeding ground for SJWs in the pre-GG sense. We create an isolated board dedicated to angry venting, import daily servings of regressiveness to get angry over, and then argue over the quality of our outrage. There have been hints of a growing callout culture on or stemming from Ghazi--discarding the mantra of "anti-GG is not a movement" in favor of seeking some kind of ideological homogeneity, lashing out against people who make mistakes or who have different ideas.
The Suggestion
Ghazi should not exist in its current form.
I think there is enormous value in having a heavily moderated "safe space" to discuss games and gaming in a socially progressive context. I'm not opposed to having that kind of space on reddit--the potential audience is enormous, and none of the major gaming subreddits currently serve this need (/r/truegaming is "intellectual", or at least talky, but still very much serves the same white male heteronormative audience as every other gaming board). I think there's a potentially bright future in Ghazi serving that need, although I'm not sure we can keep a name that's just a joke about GG conspiracy theories and still make the clean break from negativity that I think this community is in desperate need of. Based on a lot of the discussion that's led to this point, I think the name itself carries to much negative baggage to be useful in the future.
I don't know the mechanics of reddit administration, but I'd recommend changing the name of the subreddit, deleting most of the old content, and changing it into a moderation-heavy "SJW-friendly" gaming discussion board. If changing the name isn't possible, I'd recommend freezing the subreddit and creating a permanent notice of moving to a new board with the same purpose.
[–]Urdnot_Veximagine a sock with googly eyes laughing at you - forever 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
I think there is enormous value in having a heavily moderated "safe space" to discuss games and gaming in a socially progressive context.
There is /r/SRSGaming and it's a good, albeit small, community.
[–]jbradfieldCishet Trash 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Thanks, I'll subscribe to that.
[–]SupercrushhhSwedish Justice Warrior 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
Maybe we can move past the mocking and try focusing on meaningful discussion regarding GG and the surrounding issues? We'd still be an echo chamber but instead we'd be bouncing ideas, thoughts and concepts off each other and actually learning instead of just grasping at straws.
And then maybe have a mocking megathread?
I enjoy talking about Gamergate. I think it's really great to be able to look at this thing happening in real time and try to understand what's going on. And I think Ghazi is essential for keeping track of all the shit GG does.
Less like SRD, more like badhistory? Idk. I think Ghazi is great for what it is, but I also understand feeling burnt out by it all. Mr. Bones wild ride :(
[–]casersatzBASED SHILL 1 point2 points3 points  (5 children)
This is an essential question, but also a very difficult one.
Because Gamergate, as a movement, has been in the doldrums for quite some time, one needs to work with what one has. I think it is very easy to get caught up in twitter drama in times like this. There is also the problem with how gamergate is debunked. There was a thread just yesterday that brought us allllll the way back to the Zoe Post. The godamn Zoe Post. Not every discussion needs to begin back at Gamergate Genesis 1:1 to iron out the wrinkles in their narrative. My point is that more discussion should be focused on going forward than re-hashing, or playing Twitter Pong.
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 3 points4 points5 points  (4 children)
The godamn Zoe Eron Post.
FTFY ;)
[–]GaylenAnd injustice deliciously flaired! Be prepared! 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I like this idea.
[–]casersatzBASED SHILL 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
Thanks. I should have been calling it that all along. What an inappropriate colloquialism!
[–]Super_JaySensual Jew Whisperer 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
I know, right?? It's always bothered me and I love it whenever I see someone else independently refer to that mess as "The EronPost" b/c he's the one who should have his name permanently affixed to that pile of stinking garbage.
[–]Zand_Kilch 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I think those are good points.
I didn't know we had an incorrect (much less correct) victim list, and apparently it's gone.
I think basically doing what GG pays lip service to doing (real ethics) is a good idea.
Support is good, and lotsa the off topic stuff is good too, and expanding those may be better than making fun of a few dozen jerks and ignorant kids.
Admittedly I'll laugh at the idiots and such but gossip (TMZing), I'd be okay with it going if we evolved to something better.
[–]an_oni_moose 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
People... good merciful fuck I don't know how to say this... interpreting complaints about a community as a personal attack, even when they don't apply to you personally, and responding by trying to shut down that person's voice? That's... I mean don't make me say it, you see what I'm getting at, right?
Yup. If there's one thing I think we can all agree on, it's that we shouldn't be gators. That doesn't just mean supporting women and minorities in video games. It means keeping a level head, not taking things as personal attacks, giving people the benefit of the doubt and treating them with respect, not jumping to conclusions, and not thinking in terms of a war fought between sides, or in blacks and whites without shades of grey. These are things we need to be constantly mindful of, each of us, individually. And I think we mostly do a good job of it, but still. Not always.
[–]nervewrackingEthics school drop-out 2 points3 points4 points  (6 children)
i disagree w maddy on a lot of the thinks she's saying on that thread, but i do understand and agree w a lot of her points--i think ghazi needs to be mindful wrt posting about the harassment someone has suffered without the victim's expressed permission unless, say, they're a public figure and they have talked publicly about it (ex. anita sarkeesian), because maddy is right in that ghazi unwittingly paints a target on these people's backs. i know we want to express outrage and disgust, but oftentimes our expressions of solidarity are hypocritical when we're laughing at serial harassers like rogue and milo whenever they take a break from harassing ppl. so i think if ghazi wants to be any good, it has to move away from these people and probably try to be more discussion-focused, and if it wants to express any solidarity, it should do so in meaningful ways like we've done in the past.
idk, tbh.
[–]namelessbanana( ︶︿︶)_╭∩╮ 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
If ghazi shuts down should we create a new subreddit with news and information about what is going on with gamergate from a Non-KIA perspective because thats all I use ghazi for.
[–]FrogBlastTheGameCore 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
If ghazi shuts down, those of us who are getting more and more angry about this end-run should just restart it.
[–]painaulevain☭☭Cultural Marxist☭☭ 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I come here to laugh at GamerGate, so I'd like to see more mockery and parodies.
[–]NeonBlack666 10 points11 points12 points  (4 children)
There've been a few incidents in the last week of what look like otherwise reasonable people being on the receiving end of some quantity of bullshit sourced from here, or more particularly posts that feel quasi-inciting to get mad at MiracleOfSound over a twitstorm, or Brianna Wu over a cup of coffee, etc. With that and this recent observation from Maddy Myers, and this one from Jay Allen, it occurs to me that we might ask ourselves, are we doing something wrong?
I really think a lot of this is being blown out of proportion. I keep seeing these weird posts where people claim someone is being attacked but I never see the people actually being attacked. If there is a misunderstanding, it gets cleared up almost immediately between the people that care.
Can me not make a mountain out of a mole hole? I kind of feel like people are adding in drama where there is none.
Going one further... well I know I'm not the only one to ask if it's not time to close up here and move on to other stuff but... should we? Shouldn't we? There's barely anything left of GG to fight, and the "laughable" parts are degrading into more vulgar garbage, and by focusing on that... well, to be selfish about it, are we well-served by laughing at the pile of burning bullshit?
I do agree with this. I mean, we are paying attention to at this point, a small group of horrible and insecure people who feed off the attention. Like FEMA said, maybe making this sub private or closing it down for a while would be advantageous? I don't know.
This sub is a wealth of information. So I want others to see it. It helped months ago when information was still murky. So maybe just making it closed but still readable would be a good idea.
I mean, I like it here. But I don't want to legitimize gamergate. GDC was really a huge turning point.
[–]TikemThe reins of gaming back in the hands of Man 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I really think a lot of this is being blown out of proportion. I keep seeing these weird posts where people claim someone is being attacked but I never see the people actually being attacked. If there is a misunderstanding, it gets cleared up almost immediately between the people that care.
The problem, imo, is that someone who just comes to the subreddit is going to see "MIRACLE OF SOUND DID A DUMB" with lots of comments and thinks those comments are in favour of the OP, even if the discourse is largely the opposite. If finding out that's not the case requires reading long and winding comment threads, I can't blame people for getting the wrong picture.
[–]IMarriedAVoxPopulisock pun feminism cultural anti-gamer 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
I would be all for more jokes and less "we're the gamergate support group." I think the latter thing leads to people taking this place a little more seriously than it should be taken. We're making fun of video game reactionaries. I can barely type that sentence without smiling. I don't work in the industry, so it seems less pressing to me.
Granted, I think people who face harassment online need a support group, I am just not sure if a subreddit is the right format.
[–]NeonBlack666 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I would be all for more jokes and less "we're the gamergate support group."
Exactly. People are getting weird with this when the description of this sub is literally laughing at morons who do hateful things.
[–]rawtatoHence The Well-Fed Slark 6 points7 points8 points  (6 children)
As if this sub is like "fighting evil with evil". Seems to be a common thing, those who point out the buttshittery of others (in this case the nonsense of gg) get just as much if not more flak than those doing the buttshittery! If that makes sense. BLARGH
Perhaps going private and doing some spring cleaning would be beneficial. See how gators do without us.
EDIT:
I honestly wouldn’t mind if we just had a week of non-GG content. Like, say, a week of nothing but talking about video games. Posts about what we’re playing right now, analysis of our favorite games, YouTube videos about game trivia, favorite video game soundtracks; stuff to share what we love about the medium. A week of positivity. It’d be a week of letting KiA and GG fester in their own waste, and a week where we can unwind and take a break from seeing all the terrible shit happening right now.
Or this! We do need more positivity around here. I still want to play civ5 with some of you mooks. Anyone? Please? guize?
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 0 points1 point2 points  (5 children)
But is it Civ5 with the Brave New World expansion?
[–]rawtatoHence The Well-Fed Slark 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
But of course! Gods and kings, too!
Bagsy being Venice, though.
EDIT: Honestly, I'm always up for some civ5+xpacs MP. Anyone else? :D
[–]gavinbrindstarRainbutt Six operative 1 point2 points3 points  (3 children)
Just got the expansions, and I love them. I know /r/badhistory has a Europa Univeralis game going on, it'd be fun to do Civ for Ghazi.
[–]MrTomFTWZoe Quinn Ate My Hamster 4 points5 points6 points  (0 children)
I think a refocusing on what sort of content is posted to this sub-reddit is needed.
Pointing and laughing has served a much needed purpose, but I think in pursuit of that we've become too reliant and leant too heavily on drama and individuals. The multiple threads on TB's latest chunderings, the obsession with The Sarkeesian Effect, Roguestar's failure to produce anything resembling an actual game, talking about how terrible Milo and Sargon are etc etc.
As others have pointed out, despite their assurances to the contrary GG is dying and we haven't changed how we react - we say Ghazi is for pointing and laughing, for mocking but it's very maudlin and can get quite depressing which is actual the exact opposite of what we really need.
Recently the submissions I've found most interesting are the more OT articles about the psychology involved in interactions, the links to positive - charities and support groups being set up.
I guess what I'm trying to say is instead of punching down at GamerGate, we should be helping people up instead. Stop focusing on the individuals unless they explicitly state they want the attention, it's true that we're a spotlight whether we want to be or not and shining it on individuals who are not in a position to take that focus is not a good thing.
Instead lets talk about the people who are helping, talk about how to help, discuss and learn how we can move the industry on.
edit: and as I refresh the page and see an extra 56 comments I realise this is going to get buried. Ah well. Such is the nature of Reddit.
[–]HeinousActsZXLillianXVivian 4lyfe! 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Aww, and just as I started to write my VivivanXLilian fanfiction.
In all seriousness, I wouldn't mind if we moved away from giving so much attention to the hate group, with more "off topic" threads, but I don't want to see ghazi shut down. In an internet full of people so hurtful and hateful, this is a safe place for the people who are marginalized who also love gaming, and I don't want to see it gone.
[–]socjuswar 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
I have the news on in the background and they're talking about Benghazi again. The real one. Today is going to be a weird day.
[–]casersatzBASED SHILL 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
Rachel Maddow has a segment on her show called "Debunktion Junction", and I always thought that Ghazi should have a department focused on that. Every time gator propaganda arises (youtube videos, twitlongers, articles, etc.) we analyze it together. Everyone brings something to the table: rhetoric, fact-checking, criticism of the argument's structure... and then editors fashion everything brought together into a coherent piece. The rebuttal piece would be credited to the Ghazi collective. We could crank these out rather rapidly if enough people work together.
Now, that said... would it be worth it? Gamergate is really a lame duck by this point. It might be more beneficial to aim things against more enduring problems online, like the MRM.
I know that a lot of you want to focus Ghazi on helping victims of online abuse, and trust me... I do too. But fortunately we have Zoe and her Crash Override soon for that. I would argue that one way to reduce online harassment is to destroy the rhetoric of the opposition so thoroughly that fewer people would be willing to take part in it. People always will, of course, but it will reduce their numbers and hopefully lessen their harms.
[–]DetectiveKenUnethical Cartoonist 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I was always of the mind that we should shut this place down before the demise of GG.
I could say some things about recent events but y'know, I think it's time for me to move on too. Or else I'll never get any work done.
Goodbye forever.
[–]tkrr 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
There's always a place for making fun of assholes. That said, we have to be careful not to be assholes to each other and go all Jacobin on people because they might decide to engage in some diplomacy with the enemy or whatever. There's no excuse for that.
[–]VinterenILLUMINATI △ SHILL 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
Critique of something doesn't mean we should destroy it. That's the line of thinking we're getting gators, with the whole "criticism = censorship". What it means is it's time to improve.
Although criticism can hurt in the beginning, it's a valuable tool for self-improvement. When we become aware of flaws, we are given the opportunity to remove them and try to better ourselves.
It's a shame that the people on twitter can't see that what we tried to create here was a place to amplify the victims' voices, since some of us aren't on twitter anymore. It's even worse that there's gators that are exploiting this attempted support system in order to attack people. But I don't think that closing this sub will help future victims of GG. It will just leave them with less people willing to share their story and offer support. I don't think that victims of GG's harassment campaigns (several of them members here) needs to feel even more isolated than they already do.
I do wish there was some way to avoid gators trying to use us for evil, though. Hmmm.
[–]TheBostonPopscute butt colored hair 2 points3 points4 points  (0 children)
If you don't mind, I'd like to repost something I posted on the last stickied mod thread (I posted it days later, so I don't think anyone read it).
I've felt often a little discouraged by Ghazi, especially recently, even though I've been visiting here since it started, in the often hyperbolic and often not self reflective commentary among some people. I've posted a lot on r/againstgamergate, arguing with GamerGate supporters, and believe it or not they are for real, they believe this stuff, and while they aren't all racists and bigots, a lot of them (to borrow phrase I used earlier) are ostriches with their heads shoved so deep in the sand that they can only speak out of their own ass.
That isn't to say they don't deserve ridicule or shame sometimes for those stupid, misguided beliefs, and the damage it's caused. And that isn't to say that GamerGate isn't a terrible fucking thing that I can't believe we are still talking about, that has hurt a lot of people, and I wish it would go away forever.
But when you talk to these guys, a lot of the time they won't change their mind because they'll point at Ghazi and go "the antis are just as bad!" And while that's obviously a point of argument to you and me that's fucking stupid, to them it's everything. They honestly believe that GamerGate didn't do a lot of things it's been accused of doing! In fact, some of them believe the opposite, that Ghazi is even responsible for a lot of it! I once talked with a guy on Reddit who was genuinely afraid of going to PAX East because he thought an anti-gamergater would cause violence to pin on GamerGate. He was serious, even if he was completely off the rails.
So let's take away their ammo, starve them of oxygen, and let's get to beating this thing in any way we can. Let's not stoop to their level. Just calling them GribbleGrouters won't help anything. If we want to hold the mantle of the "good guys" we can sure as hell try to act like it.
I talked to a GamerGater the other day who had no clue about trans issues, and thought "passable transvestite" was not offensive. After having a really frank discussion with him about why it is indeed offensive, he eventually was pretty open that he had actually never encountered this sort of thing before, and was just sort of mad that people used his ignorance against him. We talked it out and now he has a better understanding of those sort of issues and was really appreciative someone took the time to explain it to him and not treat him like shit for not knowing any better. People can change. I know a lot of you don't want to hold anyone's hands in that, or are tired, or angry about all of this, but there is still good work to do, and good opportunities to do it. We don't have to turn into them because of those over there who treat us like shit.
Maybe that involves shuttering this whole thing. Maybe it involves changing what is talked about here. I don't know. I would love to see a time where we don't have to gather here to make light of this dumb, damaging thing that exists. Is there a better way to support the victims of this thing while starving it of the much needed drama it uses to sustain itself?
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 4 points5 points6 points  (15 children)
Now it's the Saint Anita that makes us horrible:
Man, now we get attacked on both sides for people thinking it's serious!
[–]lifestyledSardonic Jester of Woe 5 points6 points7 points  (4 children)
I mean, if that’s viewed as a problem, I don’t think it would be any trouble to revert to the previous subreddit logo we had.
[–]Moriarty42Hence The Prepared Sock 4 points5 points6 points  (2 children)
I would voice support for that change. I hadn't stopped to think about it until now (which is totally on me) but if we're trying to be more than a CJ sub--which we (or individuals in Ghazi) use to deflect criticism that should at least make us think--then we shouldn't have a canonization of someone who is still undergoing tons of abuse.
There are a lot of other ways to mock GG that don't bring other people into it.
[–]NeonBlack666 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
then we shouldn't have a canonization of someone who is still undergoing tons of abuse.
Thank you. I've been kind of wondering about that myself. Lets not make her some kind of icon for something that might just wind up putting more emphasize on her for people that already think she runs things behind the scenes.
[–]socialjusticeorcLiterally Internet Stalin ☭ 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I mean, I vote for replacing it with Stalin holding an NES controller.
[–]NeonBlack666 4 points5 points6 points  (3 children)
I do think the Saint Anita thing is really annoying. I like her and all but it's just weird to me.
[–]FEMAcampcounselorDARPA Chief 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
Although I don't have the design skills to make it a theme, I liked the original banner depicting "Gamerbr0 Deus Ex Conspiracy with DiGRA and Dewritos." (and needless to say, I had nothing to do with the Saint Anita theme)
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I had blocked the one on the sidebar, but I can't do that to the top one because it messes up formatting.
[–]NeonBlack666 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
lol, I did the same thing! I blocked the one on the side and then they added the one on the top and I was like fuck.
[–]pixelotlSocial Justice Yian Kut-Ku 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
They don't think it's serious, but run with one joke for too long...
[–]ToscacakeSweet Socjus from Sexsensual Scandinavia 1 point2 points3 points  (4 children)
I'd say you're reading a bit much in that one tweet? Also, this is more critiquing us and the sub culture then outright attacking us for being wrong.
I also want to bring up the tweets before this one, because it asks a good question: what are WE doing to help the people that has been attacked and harassed by Gators for the past months? Just like Spacedad says, both Randi and Zoe has started groups dedicated to stifle abuse from the scum of the internet. Anita is doing her thing as always. But what are we doing, more then shitposting here about what random gater-leaning person has said or done?
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 6 points7 points8 points  (0 children)
Even though ghazi is pitched as "point and laugh", I've viewed it as an educational resource. The SPLC keeps track of the activity of hate groups and we serve a similar purpose with gamergate. I've personally put together 4 storify entries meant to be resources for people who need examples of gamergate pushing talking points that aren't true.
[–]FrogBlastTheGameCore 6 points7 points8 points  (2 children)
Isn't that the "there are children starving in Africa" argument turned on it's head?
[–]ToscacakeSweet Socjus from Sexsensual Scandinavia 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I honestly don't know, if it can be read that way then I apologize because that's not my intention. I'm just frustrated over the situation that's all.
[–]FrogBlastTheGameCore 3 points4 points5 points  (0 children)
I don't mean to make you apologize, but when someone asks me "what are you doing to help blahblahblah," I'd tend to go direct to the snark - "Whatever I want to."
Do I have some obligation to help people that have been attacked and harassed by Gators? Further, what has the person asking me done? Why is what I've done not enough, and what they've done enough? Are we playing misery poker here?
[–]FrogBlastTheGameCore 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I think Mr. Allen needs to do a more thorough explanation of what he sees wrong here, because that I care about.
I could care less about the other critiques. I assume you banned the half-wit who misread everything MiracleOfSound said, and I've taken a vow of silence with respect to
[–]Clockwork-LimeSocial Justice Lime 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
This quote by Maddy Myers basically sums up why I stepped down from modding:
It just emphasizes all the more to me that for some people all of this "drama" is just a fun entertainment, like gaming's TMZ or some shit
[–]GreyWardenThorga 7 points8 points9 points  (0 children)
I don't know about other people, I can't speak for them. But for me, all the drama of GG is not entertaining. In fact it's often incredibly demoralizing to read this sub and see what new bullshit people have gotten up to in the name of ethics in games journalism.
So yes we mock things, make jokes, and have laughs, but to me it's only because it's an antidote to the continued awfulness. And on another level, I feel obligated to help out where I can, even if it's just through mockery of GG's tortured logic and hypocrisy.
[–]spacekatgalBrianna Wu 4 points5 points6 points  (19 children)
I've got to be honest - Ghazi viciously attacking me over a choice to have a cup of coffee hurt me deeply. It's seriously dampened my enthusiasm for coming here and interacting with you. Maddy was dead on that you misgendering people is deplorable.
I appreciate you looking in the mirror.
[–]QuintinStone☠☠ Anti-Chocobo, Pro-Sock ☠☠ 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
That list was a thread started 4 months ago that wasn't being kept up to date. If anyone was being misgendered, a simple request for a correction would have fixed it. This isn't KiA or 8chan, the people here don't misgender for shits and giggles and you know that.
The coffee thing was ridiculous and I tried to point out you never claimed Wardell was an ally.
[–]RobfathahStatue of Limitations 5 points6 points7 points  (6 children)
Uh, when the fuck did Ghazi ever misgender anyone without the whole community calling them on it?
Edit: Welp, that sucks.
[–]DanyLektro...And Social Justice for All. 1 point2 points3 points  (4 children)
Maddy pointed to the sidebar thing that was recently removed with a list of victims that included some inaccuracies, which was weird because by her own admission, the post wasn't maintained or updated.
[–]RexMundaneLiterally Hans[S] 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
Seeing that reaction to the coffee-thing was supremely depressing, and I know I'm not the only one who felt that way, and whatever it is about us that facilitated that happening is best done away with. I'd like to think that we're, collectively, well-meaning enough that we can accept honest criticism and be all the better for it.
[–]nervewrackingEthics school drop-out 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
tbh, when i saw that thread, i couldn't even believe what i was seeing; it's one thing to be critical, another thing is completely fly off the handle over a meeting we know nothing abt, regardless of our opinions re: brad wardell.
[–]JanvsDislike Collectivist 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
I think we all need a lot more empathy.
People are getting worn out, stressed, upset, which is understandable, given how long this thing has been going on, but Ghazi needs to be a safer, kinder, better place than the shitholes it criticizes.
I'm not trying to be the tone police here, you are allowed to be angry, but this first and foremost needs to be a place for people to come and constructively vent about GG.
[–]GaylenAnd injustice deliciously flaired! Be prepared! 6 points7 points8 points  (1 child)
Ghazi needs to be a safer, kinder, better place than the shitholes it criticizes.
Kinder to whom?
[–]ffangss 1 point2 points3 points  (6 children)
Do you not see the irony in linking to Maddy's Twitter, given the content of her observation? Could you not do that?
I'm not sure we even have the right to "point and laugh" at a harassment campaign if the majority of us are not actual victims of said harassment. It's essentially harassment porn.
I think for sure we should "move on to other stuff." I think posts should be of a mostly positive nature and that the subreddit should be set to private so lurking gators can't use our hypothetical positive links to harass the subjects/writers involved. I tried this out with a gamasutra sjw-y/interesting game design-y link roundup for a couple of weeks, but it wasn't very popular. Honestly a less GG-based ghazi sounds pretty much like /r/SRSGaming though, so I'll probably just go there more and stop coming here if things don't change.
[–]GiantSJWConspiracyUnpreparedSocks 5 points6 points7 points  (5 children)
You don't think we should be allowed to mock harassment, or that mocking is a tool that can empower, unless it's happening to us directly?
Do you think there is any role for mocking things like Gamergate, or should it be only serious discussion?
[–]PoliteTimesplitter 1 point2 points3 points  (0 children)
I'd say these are two separate issues: 1. the mobbing and 2. the 'purpose' of Ghazi.
As for 1, yeah, I think that what we need to do most is...chill the fuck out a little bit. I think that there's a fair bit of panic and overreacting here and I for one have been guilty of it. Though I still feel that Brianna was making an unethical choice with approaching Wardell and how she subsequently painted him, I can say that a lot of comments went too far, including me saying she 'threw Zoe under the bus'.
We can disagree with the things that some evidently well-meaning 'anti-GG' (note quotation marks) people do but we could all do with biting our tongue once in a while before we make a comment no matter how throwaway it is.
[–]newl-asjw trans otherkin tumblr boogieman 0 points1 point2 points  (4 children)
what does private do btw?
[–]NeonBlack666 0 points1 point2 points  (3 children)
It would make it look like this to whoever isn't invited: http://np.reddit.com/r/ghaziblackops
I don't want the information here to be so well hidden though. Nor all the threads of discussion.
[–]newl-asjw trans otherkin tumblr boogieman 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
yea i think doing a thing where the info and threads are still viewable to all would be good
[–]BigBassBoneHence the prepared hugbox 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
[–]Urdnot_Veximagine a sock with googly eyes laughing at you - forever 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
If we're doing more harm than good (this also means being perceived as doing more harm than good) then maybe it's time.
There is wisdom in knowing when you've outlived your purpose.
[–]nervewrackingEthics school drop-out 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
i know i posted a comment before, but i also did have a discussion about gamerghazi before with an uninvolved friend, and i remember him asking me if i thought ghazi was giving GG undeserved attention and emboldening them? i said i didn't think so, but now i'm not so sure.
[–]athzar -7 points-6 points-5 points  (0 children)
A lot of stuff. For one, jokes about subscriber counts shouldn't be hitting the front page.
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