評価の高い 200 コメント全て表示する 380

[–]dragon_engine 316 ポイント317 ポイント  (121子コメント)

It seems that the Chinese government has gotten so used to having its way domestically regarding message control, they fail to realize that doesn't work so well overseas.

[–]allodude 137 ポイント138 ポイント  (111子コメント)

It's not so much that the Chinese government is controlling the message, they just don't know what the world wants.

[–]Zorbick 146 ポイント147 ポイント  (99子コメント)

McDonald's, Netflix, and Amazon for starters.

[–]Hyndis 236 ポイント237 ポイント  (82子コメント)

Even during the Cold War, back before China was a major world player, American consumer goods were extremely popular in the USSR.

The Soviet Union simply could not produce these consumer goods. People wanted these consumer goods. A black market developed where people were smuggling American pants into Russia.

These days its mostly Starbucks, Apple, and anything Hollywood makes. People want these things. Even in North Korea, the average North Korean citizen craves these consumer goods. They enjoy American style movies and entertainment. Despite the best effort of the Kims, these consumer goods are smuggled across the border even under pain of death.

To use Civ terms, America is winning the culture victory, and has been winning in culture ever since the 1960's.

[–]Blackjack148 99 ポイント100 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reminds me of when the Russian government tried to make America look awful using propaganda that said some Americans ate dog food. The plan backfired when Russians were surprised to learn that Americans had food that was meant specifically for dogs.

Edit: Found out it was actually cat food... close enough

[–]quitelargeballs 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They're buying our blue jeans and listening to our pop music!

[–]General_Mayhem 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Especially in BNW terms - America is crushing in terms of exporting culture. China has an incredibly powerful cultural identity, but it's mostly insular.

[–]qyll 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It wouldn't be a leap to say that American culture is even more dominant than the American military.

[–]3vere1 73 ポイント74 ポイント  (74子コメント)

We're also winning the science victory.

[–]Bradleyjc 111 ポイント112 ポイント  (68子コメント)

Germany and Japan would like a word with you...

[–]jjjohnson81 82 ポイント83 ポイント  (32子コメント)

Not saying that University research is everything (it's obviously not), but I would expect some correlation with university research and industry or general population. Japan and Germany do a lot of excellent work and have smaller populations, but I don't think you should argue that they're 'winning the science victory' over the US.

Germany is not represented on these lists until ~30-50th place. The first link (shanghairanking) bases their results on research output primarily, but the others show similar trends.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2014.html

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2014#sorting=rank+region=+country=+faculty=+stars=false+search=

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15/world-ranking

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/engineering

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/physics

[–]idonotknowwhoiam 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (30子コメント)

US is known to have good top universities, which overshadows lousy local colleges and even lousier high schools. UK, Germany etc. are opposite

[–]5corch 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Does that really matter in this case though? Whatever you think of public schools in the US, it's universities that do actual research, and it doesn't seem as though the lack of amazing high schools has lead to a lack of students for the universities.

[–]JohnHenryAaron 62 ポイント63 ポイント  (4子コメント)

The US doesn't lack good high schools. It doesn't even lack good public high schools. There are just massive differences in the quality of education at the best schools compared to the worst and even the average.

[–]Lemo95 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Universities aren't exclusively filled with american students. if you, for example, look at the recent nobel prizes, you'll see that they are spread out among many nations, BUT were often working for american universities. It seems american universities "simply" attract more great minds than they "produce" (not saying they don't have any of their own)

[–]Lowsow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I don't know about Germany, but the UK certainly has good top universities.

[–]idonotknowwhoiam 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

2 or 3, compared to 50 in US.

[–]BD00R 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

One thing that gets overlooked in these rankings is that German universities are more teaching focused, with all the research happening at independent institutes instead. This brings them way down on the rankings even though they are at least as effective

[–]_monad 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Actually, the U.S. is by far the most technologically advanced in many specific sectors of science, such as military nuclear applications, there's only one other nuclear powered carrier out there, France's Charles de Gaulle, from which MI6 "allegedly" attempted to steal technical details.

Then there's Intel, the single dominating force in 64bit processing, AMD and Nvidia- the GPU duopoly. Apple, who single handedly owns over 42% of the smartphone industry.

Also, Japan is no longer the big dog of technology, they've fallen behind, and continue to drop. Korea is the new Japan. Sony and Toshiba, two of Japan's largest tech companies, have been dropping rapidly since the late 1990s. Sony just sold off its Vaio subsidiary in order to stay alive. Which made me very sad since I really liked my Vaio duo 13 and pro 13.

Germany has never really been a tech player... They're known for their high quality machining and auto engineering, which I suppose is tech, but I'm talking more about electronics than the general definition of technology.

I feel like every country has their own specialization, except the U.S. is like the jack of all trades.

Disclaimer: Not American so no propaganda.

[–]TheHardTruth 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Korea is the new Japan.

I wouldn't go that far. A few Korean companies (like Samsung and LG) are on the rise due to the mass production and sales of a few key popular consumer goods (notably, HDTVs, Cell phones, etc). But don't mistake mass production and sales for innovation. Korea didn't invent tablets, smart phones with magical touchscreens or HDTVs, they're only selling them. The innovations those companies make are interesting, but not significant (new 3D technology or curved TVs anyone?).

But most importantly, the products they're selling are not unique to Korean companies. Japan, China, Taiwan even American companies are manufacturing and selling these exact same products. Korea appears to be on the rise because they're finally taking their place on the world stage. They're not leaping over anyone; they're now just finally entering the game. They're starting to do now what everyone else has been doing for decades.

You'll see a few innovation ranking lists with Korea somehwere near the top (like this example) but pay attention to why they're listed up there. Almost always the reason is because of how much money they have invested into R&D for that particular year. Unfortunately money invested is not a final product. You can invest billions into research and still come away with absolutely nothing. Ranking Korea up that high just because they've pumped money into R&D is putting the cart before the horse. Let's see what they do first before we start counting their eggs.

[–]Malician 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

samsung beating TMSC to 14nm is impressive.

rumor is that it's because they lured a top TMSC employee away, but even if that's true their performance is still incredible

[–]_monad 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

What?... You realize Korea has been a tech power for a couple decades now. Not only that but you think they haven't innovated? The entire smartphone evolution is a result of their innovations, not to mention innovations in ARM processing, television, and tech in general. The first completely touchscreen phone, [its funny you mention they didnt invent the magical touchscreen phone, because they actually did] the first capacitive touchscreen phone (uses electrical sensors instead of pressure from your fingernail or stylus), the LTE mass commercial mobile network technology, first mobile TV, digital multimedia broadcasting, first mp3 player, first phone with built in mp3 player, inventor of the retina screen, first LTE phone, MOSFET transistors, floating gate memory cell (foundation of memory devices), the list goes on and on. Samsung is the largest electronics company in the world period. Hyundai is the fourth largest auto company, Hynix is the second largest memory transistor company after Samsung (Hynix memory chips are in your macbook and many other laptops), LG is the second largest TV manufacturer after Samsung, third largest smartphone manufacturer after Samsung and apple.

These are just a few things. Korea engineers these products, then they are largely produced in China. Japan has fallen in terms of innovations and electronics domination. This is why I said Korea is the new Japan. If they are not innovating, why don't they just buy Japanese phones, TVs, desktops and laptops? Japanese products are actually usually cheaper because they discount products as they run out of business, such as the Vaio sales they had as they declined into acquisition. The more innovative products are bought over the less innovative ones. The first company to come out with a certain technology often wins the largest market share, people buy the latest and greatest. If Taiwan and Japan make the same exact shit, except cheaper, why aren't consumers buying Taiwanese and Japanese products over the Korean ones?

Where have you been for the last 15-20 years?

[–]beargolden 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What?... You realize Korea has been a tech power

What game changing technologies have they invented? I think you're falling victim to what OP is talking about. Just because they're manufacturing (and selling) tech doesn't mean they're innovative. A perfect example is China. They sell a shit load but I wouldn't call them innovative at all. It's more than just consumer electronics. I understand that Koreans feel proud of Samsung, but there's more to it than just HDTVs and tablets.

The entire smartphone evolution is a result of their innovations

Wow. Just wow. A quick glance at the wikipedia page on smartphones immediately proves that wrong. The first smartphones and PDAs were not by Korean companies. Again, the point is that they're producing a lot of these things, but they're not inventing them. Japan had more to do with the invention of smartphones than Korea. There's even a nice chunk of the wikipedia article devoted just to NTT and Japan.

The first completely touchscreen phone

...was not a Korean company, again, you need to provide sources for your claims (though this is rhetorical since you cannot, because you're wrong). According this source and this source, capacitive touchscreen existed for a long time and was invented by Americans. No Korean company is mentioned anywhere on either of those pages (with regards to the history and/or development of those technologies).

first mp3 player

Uh, the first MP3 players were personal computers. I guess you could say DOS and Windows 95 were the first MP3 players because that's where they were first played.

first phone with built in mp3 player

Sorry, but no. Seimens was the first company to put out a phone with an MP3 player. Source.

Retina screen

Retina screen? That's not anything revolutionary or new, it's a marketing term to indicate a higher pixel density. That's all.

digital multimedia broadcasting

I don't even.... Let me guess, they invented the sun too?

Samsung is the largest electronics company in the world period.

And? They're just a single company. You have to look at all of the tech companies in the world, not just consumer electronics. Consumer electronics is only a tiny part of a big picture.

If Taiwan and Japan make the same exact shit, except cheaper, why aren't consumers buying Taiwanese and Japanese products over the Korean ones?

But they're not cheaper, usually. And I don't think OP was pitting those countries against Korea, rather, saying they're all finally sitting at the same table. And it's true. Before the 90s, Korea didn't produce anything, at least, nothing that made it to our store shelves in any quantity. There was no Samsung or LG in our Walmarts.

[–]Thorrtun 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Oh god, this became a commentary fight on whos daddy is strongest.

[–]_monad 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I doubt he's Japanese, more than likely a weaboo who has irrational loyalty to Japan. If Japanese technology is not on decline he should withdraw his savings account and invest into Sony and Toshiba lol.

[–]Disingenuous_ 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (9子コメント)

When Germany and Japan win at science, so does the US.

[–]MyfanwyTiffany 80 ポイント81 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Because unlike Civ, this isn't a zero-sum game.

[–]hrkristian 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

As far as we know.

I've seen way too many dudes stroll around in threes to be convinced.

[–]scroy 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Threes?

[–]Jojje22 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

they can chat for a while, but US research has the military industrial complex behind it. a lot of silicon valley is still on their buck, and so much - from software and electronics to physics, medicine and chemical engineering often comes from initial military interests.

Not saying that germany or japan don't have competent universities and researchers, because they do. however, the money circulating research in the US is money that germany or japan can't compete with and research is mostly about money in the end.

[–]t337c213 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

but congress won't fund more research. We're actually going to lose the lead in the near future.

[–]3vere1 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I know, it's really sad honestly. I wish I was alive during the space race, it must've been such a happy time of nationalistic pride that didn't just come from fighting and past events.

[–]xvampireweekend 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You were there for the Mars thing.

[–]3vere1 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yea, but that doesn't seem as great as putting a man on the moon.

[–]SpacemanCraig 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No, you remember...the Mars colony?

[–]spoofmaker1 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It doesn't help that China went for Order. Not the best choice for a culture victory...

[–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]JumpAndBurns 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Everyone will listen to our pop music as well.

    Soon cities will rebel and the world will belong to America's flourishing arts! We will then celebrate our victory by nuking the world and ditching Earth for alpha centurai.

    [–]somedayrelevant 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    [–]Krutonium 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I actually really like this song.

    Now I must find out if there is any good parodies... (Wierd Al etc)

    [–]Gumburcules 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If you haven't seen it Vice did a funny little piece in 2006 where a writer tried to bribe people in modern day Russia with Levis and toilet paper.

    It did not go well.

    [–]biffybyro 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    China's version of Amazon, Taobao, is several hundred times better than Amazon. If they could expand it externally without ruining it by enforcing copyright rules etc it would be amazing.

    [–]MyLifeForSpire 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    All American companies. You'd think China would get the message and try to emulate what is successful around the world.

    [–]DaystarEld 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    They do actually: there are a lot of knockoff and blatant ripoff goods and brands in China. It's a huge headache legally, because they're less than inclined to hold their people accountable for it.

    [–]faaaks 22 ポイント23 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    They only emulate superficially without understanding why those companies are successful.

    [–]TheBold 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    China actually doesn't recognize intellectual property so there's that.

    [–]komnenos 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    When I was in Fuzhou (a city in southeastern China) I saw a beer by the name of "bud ice" I had a nice chuckle over that one.

    [–]LeiningensAnts 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Rebel-held China: biggest cargo cult the world has ever seen.

    [–]crimsonroute 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Amazon customer service is AMAZING.

    [–]Enchilada_McMustang 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    alibaba works pretty well though

    [–]Regalian 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Spot on. I think the most successful country in exporting their art/culture is Korea. Even though their government is also putting a lot of effort and control to broadcast their TV shows but they're doing it right. In China's case, Japan (Dynasty warriors etc) and USA (The last airbender and Legend of Korra) are both doing a better job in promoting Chinese culture.

    [–]capitalsfan08 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Really? What Korean shows are well received internationally? I'm American, and I don't think I could name a single thing about modern Korean culture. On the other hand, I always hear about American things becoming popular overseas.

    [–]Regalian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Running man is pretty big even though I don't watch it. Girls' Generations song Gee was huge several years ago. Psy's Gangnam style is like the most popular youtube video. I don't particularly follow Korean stuff and I know these stuff, have you been intentionally avoiding Korean modern culture?

    [–]johnnynutman 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    and that's where the benefits of capitalism come in... sadly, along with disadvantages...

    [–]mao_intheshower 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    To understand China's diplomacy, you have to understand its history. This is a great article about a man who was so incompetent that he was shuffled around various ministries, leaving bodies in his wake, before finally ending up as a diplomat. The money quote:

    So when Chonghou was appointed to the newly created post of superintendent of trade at Tianjin, it was the sort of job no one more dignified would dare touch. Knowledge of the outside world was not a virtue—and Chonghou was not afflicted with it.

    At the time, imperial exams favored subjects like the details of Confucianism rather than more practical things - and things haven't really changed that much, with the gaokao system.

    Fast forward to today, and you get cases like this (and there are more in different countries). The Chinese embassy decided that a restaurant mural in an Oregon town offended them, and therefore asked the mayor to require the restaurant to take it down. They didn't actually contact the offending person - they think that the government actually controls all this stuff. I have to think back to the case of Chongzhou, where it seems that they don't have the slightest idea of how foreign countries work. It's both amusing and a little scary.

    [–]catofillomens 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    At the time, imperial exams favored subjects like the details of Confucianism rather than more practical things - and things haven't really changed that much, with the gaokao system.

    Eh, I won't go as far as to say that. Gaokao isn't that different from any other standardized testing system like the SATs or A-levels.

    [–]Hautamaki 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    The questions asked and the grading schema are bizarre by any western standards.

    http://shanghaiist.com/2014/06/10/a_compilation_of_the_2014_gaokao_ch.php

    Working with these extremely cryptic clues, students are graded on their ability to artfully express exactly the sentiments desired by the graders. Thus the great majority of their study preparation time is spent in figuring out what they are 'supposed' to say. Invariably it all comes down to using the prompt to write a paean to the glory of the authority figures in their lives. Students who deviate from that model, no matter how well they write or how sound their reasoning, are given failing grades and relegated to second class colleges that will doom them to low-paying jobs for the rest of their lives. They will be unable to send their parents to good hospitals when they grow old, and they will be unable to send future children to good schools, thus damning whole generations to a sub-standard existence. To the Chinese, this is working as intended.

    This isn't exactly how it's supposed to work in America or England.

    [–]catofillomens 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I'd say those examples are really poorly translated and lack cultural context, which is what's causing the really awkward phrasings. If you overlook that, it's pretty much like SAT essay prompts, with a short passage and asking for discussion.

    Now, I won't go as far to say that the test is fair, unbiased, that the graders give out grades fairly, etc. But I'm just saying the test itself is quite similar to other standardized tests, which are equally bad at testing practical things.

    [–]Smirth 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    No, I dont think you really understand.

    Even in the texts that foreigners while learning Chinese, there is a massive "cultural" bias that determines correctness. Sentences that are grammatically correct are not correct if they do not fit the perception of what the Correct Chinese Culture is.

    [–]mao_intheshower 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Well, besides the fact that the test quite intentionally and openly discriminates against people in disadvantaged parts of the country...

    In theory it's similar. However, when you look at the actual content of the test, and (just as importantly) the test-taking context, it eliminates any possibility of anything like the American liberal arts curriculum. That's the exact sort of multicultural perspective that China is lacking.

    [–]Yawehg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Alternatively, they know that loose control would allow greater expansion, but place a higher value on controlling the message than they do on accelerating it's output.

    Individual freedom was a component of America's advertising, so promoting free expression abroad supported that goal. Potentially, China's has more to lose from unregulated expression.

    [–]Frumplemaster 178 ポイント179 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    This is what happens when you go Order instead of Freedom and then try to win a cultural victory.

    [–]Gilthwixt 32 ポイント33 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    I mean it's totally possible with that Tier 3 Tenet that gives +34% Tourism to Civs with less Happiness, China is just bad and isn't actually trying to make it's citizens happy.

    [–]swxrice 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    The CCP wants the citizens happy only so far as it helps to keep them in power. Now, it's easy to say that's a fundamental goal of every government and always has been: external security to keep a government in place, and internal security to keep this government in place, and an unhappy populace is necessary to lose internal security.

    The CCP definitely does things to try to keep the people happy. They call their method of governance "representative democracy" because they have many polls throughout the year to get feedback on government performance. Is your garbage taken away often enough? Do you feel safe in your neighborhood? Do you think young children have too much access to alcohol? If the people are very upset over something that can be solved without weakening the Party, it will be solved.

    Just about every Western government reacts to opinion similarly, even if the mechanism is sometimes true democratic change of government. The problem is that the CCP also uses other tactics to maintain internal security, such as Big Brother inspired communication inspection and limiting freedom of assembly. Keeping the people happy makes them not want to revolt and thereby maintains security. Keeping close tabs on the people who want to revolt anyway and then "removing" them before they can gain a following also maintains internal security and keeps the CCP in power.

    [–]Gilthwixt 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think you're overthinking my answer, we were making Civ 5 jokes.

    [–]NO_LAH_WHERE_GOT 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    The problem is that the CCP also uses other tactics to maintain internal security, such as Big Brother inspired communication inspection and limiting freedom of assembly.

    Ignorant non-American here– doesn't the US do this too? NSA, Ferguson, etc?

    [–]swxrice 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Ferguson is an issue institutional racism. It's repeated over and over across the country, but it's very decentralized and opposed by the federal government. The problem with that trial was a combination of corrupt local government and lack of a reliable witness. The DA was in CYA mode and got the case swept under the rug.

    The NSA has tools very similar to what China uses, but they don't implement them the same way, yet. There isn't, to my knowledge, evidence of the NSA using its data to prevent Americans from having particular conversations like China does. Everything published so far has been petty vanity look-ups (eg searching ex lovers' messages) or else at least tangentially involved investigating suspected foreign terrorists. Even Glen Greenwald can still travel in the USA. If China had an Edward Snowden, everybody that could possibly have touched the files would be imprisoned or executed within a week of arrest, and it would be illegal to discuss the validity of that process at risk of joining them.

    I don't believe that the NSA should have the capabilities that they do, but the comparison isn't quite fair. If the NSA and China's Public Security Bureau (and other departments) were a neighborhood watch, it's like they've been armed with the only machine guns in the world. The NSA only points their guns at outsiders. The PSB only points their guns at the citizens they "protect." The problem with the NSA is that all they need to do is turn their guns around because we have about as much internal surveillance infrastructure as China, we just don't use it nearly as much.

    [–]capitalsfan08 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Ferguson

    What? There were riots! Were the police just supposed to let people riot? You can debate about the methods they used, but being there in the first place is not something they did wrong.

    [–]NO_LAH_WHERE_GOT 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That's kind of the same arguments that China uses, if you think about it. They have thousands of years of history of disorder, disharmony, etc– and so their leaders feel morally obligated to crush any threat or uprising.

    Not siding with them– just as a neutral 3rd party I feel like they aren't as different (China vs US) as people make it out to be. Different premises, starting points, history, baggage... but fundamentally similiar, I feel.

    [–]the___heretic 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I win a cultural victory with Order all the time. If you can get the world ideology set to Order, it's pretty easy.

    [–]Kinetic_Card 72 ポイント73 ポイント  (24子コメント)

    I knew it, Ni Hao Kai Lan is a communist plot.

    Since China is a huge global market it's also interesting to see blatant China-pandering in major movies like Iron Man 3, X-Men Days of Future Past, and Transformers 4.

    [–]vagbuffet 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (18子コメント)

    That is interesting, but as I've only seen one of those movies, could you elaborate on how they are pandering toward china? Like by planting the wolverine storyline in Asia?

    [–]Kinetic_Card 66 ポイント67 ポイント  (16子コメント)

    Iron Man 3 had the scene with the famous Chinese actors that literally made no sense in the story.

    Transformers 4's big showdown takes place in Shanghai because the villains wanted to do something to earth's largest city.

    X-Men: Days of Future Past had a famous Chinese actress in it and much of the "future" part takes place in a monastery in China.

    Wolverine did have a history with Japan, so he gets to pull a little bit of the hipster card and say he rolled with Asians before it was cool.

    [–]WarJunkie 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (11子コメント)

    I don't remember Iron Man 3 having anything to do with Chinese actors. But looking a youtube, I see there is a scene made for the Chinese version. So I agree with that.

    I would disagree with Transformer 4, but I remember that movie is just a 2 hour advertisement for everything. I'm a bit iffy about it.

    I disagree with X-men: DOFP, I don't see how a scene in a monastery or having a chinese actress is pandering to the Chinese audience. If there was a scene in Iceland with a Icelandic actress, would it be considered pandering to Iceland? Taken 2 takes place in Istanbul, would you consider it pandering to that country? If you say yes to above, should they have only American actors? If no, then is X-men: DOFP still considered pandering to Chinese audience?

    [–]fluffynukeit 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    It's 100% pandering to an audience in DOFP. The actress that plays Blink doesn't even speak english. She has 1 line in the whole movie.

    But, go to China (like I did in December) and her face is on practically EVERY billboard and magazine cover. She's everywhere. In the US, there's more variety to whichever actress is being glamorized at a given time, but there she dominates the print media. She's been wildly popular there for couple years now.

    [–]Sbuiko 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Meh. There was a stunt/martial arts guy who had Swiss parents. He had about 10 minutes as an agent in one of the highway fight scenes of Matrix 2. He was all over the media, honour guest at midnight screenings, etc. That's pretty par for the course.

    [–]WarJunkie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    To be fair, the future-mutant guys barely had any screen time either. I remember some of them having a poster for themselves including Rogue which I can't even remember seeing her in the film. Most of the screen time went to the guys that appeared in First Class.

    [–]buzzkill_aldrin 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    China has a quota for how many foreign movies are allowed to have a theater release in each year. The quota does not apply if said movie was produced in a partnership with a Chinese studio. The Chinese studios receive additional funding if they can show that the movie has sufficient "cultural content". So they shoehorn whatever they can in.

    [–]GauntletWizard 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If it were a scene in Iceland with an Icelandic actress, it would be unlikely to be pandering, because Iceland hasn't been asking for concessions from hollywood. The evidence is there that China is looking to play ball with Hollywood (Aforementioned Iron Man scene, plenty of other reporting ). Therefore, every coincidence is suspicious. This is not conspiracy theory, it is trend analysis, and China tends to be unsubtle.

    [–]Kinetic_Card 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Pander might be a strong word. It just felt for a while that whenever "foreign" stuff was gonna happen, it was usually Japan. Welcome our brilliant scientist from Japan. The time I was in Japan, zany overseas stuff happened. Our second Jodie Foster Contact machine is in Japan.

    Now it's China.

    [–]Gumburcules 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I guess it depends on your definition of pander.

    Considering China is now a huge movie market, you really can't blame them for wanting to add elements that appeal to Chinese viewers, but whether that is pandering is kind of open to interpretation.

    If I make an action movie and add some shirtless beefcake so guys are more likely to bring their girlfriends, is that pandering to women just because you don't want to cut out 50% of your potential viewers, or is that just good business sense? Conversely, if I edit the trailer to my romcom to imply that the movie has plenty of titties so guys will be more willing to take their girlfriends is that pandering?

    It's not like China is demanding that we include these actors and scenes and directors are kowtowing to appease their Chinese overlords, they are just putting elements in that they think will increase their ticket sales.

    I think whether or not that is pandering is definitely up for debate.

    [–]QnA 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Considering China is now a huge movie market

    Yet India's is even bigger. Why not pander to them?

    "Indian film industry is multi-lingual and the largest in the world in terms of ticket sales and number of films produced and 2nd largest in terms of revenue." Source.

    It's because China is throwing money at them while India isn't. They're literally buying influence.

    It's not like China is demanding that we include these actors and scenes and directors are kowtowing to appease their Chinese overlords, they are just putting elements in that they think will increase their ticket sales.

    Actually, that's exactly what they're doing according to the reports on the Iron Man 3 drama. They even let China's censors give script advice for rewrites. Source.

    Iron Man 3 wasn't the only movie this happened with, read the source.

    [–]friendlyallamerican 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The Walt Disney Company is a publicly traded corporation with a duty to maximize value to shareholders. It's pandering to China so it can release films in China to make more money. I believe in capitalism and don't think this is a problem. Disney should not be prevented from maximizing profit. If you don't want Hollywood to pander to China, you have several options: convince Chinese people to stop watching films; overthrow the current Chinese government and change legislation; take Disney private; introduce legislation in the US that prevents Hollywood from pandering to China.

    [–]bumwine 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It shouldn't just be looked at solely from the movie though, that doesn't tell you the whole story. Look at the marketing for Mission Impossible Ghost Protocol. In India they plastered Anil Kapoor all over posters as if he was some sort of main character, much less any sort of plot-driving character. But after watching the movie, that poster makes virtually no sense. The same apparently happened with X-men.

    Put it this way - how would you feel if a Chinese film had one single scene with Leonardo Dicaprio that had no real effect on the plot and then in America we get posters and ads all over the place with a shot of Dicaprio. It's a little condescending.

    [–]DaystarEld 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    How did you forget Pacific Rim?!

    [–]0h_Lord 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Transformers 4's big showdown takes place in Shanghai because the villains wanted to do something to earth's largest city.

    Are you sure? The showdown may has cuts from all over the place but I'm pretty sure it's largely set in Hong Kong.

    [–]xiefeilaga 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It is pandering, but there's something more interesting at work here too. China (against its WTO obligations) still limits the amount of foreign films released in Chinese theaters each year, and foreign films also get a smaller cut of the box office. A few years ago, in order to promote more international cooperation in film, they set a policy that any film that had a Chinese partner with x% stake in the film, some scenes in China and parts for Chinese actors, would be treated as a domestic film. Loopers and Iron Man 3 teamed up with a Chinese company called DMG. Both basically took advantage of the law, only fulfilling the bare minimum requirements. Iron Man 3 only had one China scene, and it only aired in the China release. It was so egregious that the policy was almost canceled.

    [–]Cryzgnik 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    What sort of pandering is in those films? I'm genuinely curious, I'm not familiar enough to know myself.

    [–]shepards_hamster 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Guess we won't be seeing anything like Seven Years in Tibet anytime soon.

    [–]w1nt3r_mute 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I think the reason why China's government wants such a tight control on its cultural output is that they simply need to tip their toes because of all the controversial things they do.

    For example, there is a huge housing issue in China where people with average jobs (such as salespeople or even office assistants) simply cannot afford housing in large cities. There was a mainland-produced drama series(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwelling_Narrowness) that centres around this topic which was banned from due to the communist party's stance that "life is good in China". Mind you this was a very mainstream series.

    Imagine if independent films etc about real life in China was shown. The government simply does not want people outside of China to know the way things actually are.

    [–]daskrip 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    China's GDP and GDP per capita are both growing insanely fast. My shanghai friend from Sichuan showed me his place. It looked pretty shiny and lavish, and I was surprised. He told me that it's very typical of middle class people to live in places like those. People there really aren't so poor. In western China, they are, but not in big cities like Shanghai, especially with the younger generation.

    [–]souverianwerewe 81 ポイント82 ポイント  (14子コメント)

    Look, the People's Republic of China has spent much of the past half century trying to destroy and reject thousands of years of history and culture. People couldn't eat the foods they had eaten in their ancestral homes (starvation, communism and sparrow murder put a damper on that), they couldn't celebrate their ancient Chinese holidays (Chinese New Year was banned, amongst others) and the very fabric of traditional society and Confucian ideals were painted as evil (teachers were called enemies of the state, reading and learning anything non-state sponsored pre-Mao was considered subversive). Consider a hundred years before that, China was in constant state of war and unrest. The last 150 years has been hard on China and its people and the average member of society couldn't be bothered to preserve culture and identity when they were busy just trying to stay alive.

    Since the 90s it's been getting better but in many ways Chinese culture has been fragmented to the point of losing pride in its identity. Hell, what is a Chinese identity anymore? I don't even think the PRC knows because they constantly have to keep the socialist aspect in mind. Contemporary China has been a giant human experiment. Mao and the socialist initiatives have manipulated and molded China and its people into what it is now. The party is so insanely anal about who or what to push out as a reflection of "Chinese culture" because Chinese culture was so vilified for so long, it's only relatively recently they even considered the question. That's why cultural exports are as shallow and dull as OP spoke of; Beijing has only selected "safe" bets because anything authentic, underground or perhaps truly contemporary is cause for alarm due to the government's inability to control its influence.

    China is huge and the whole history of two Chinas and persistent diaspora has not helped matters. There are Chinese people all over the world now and all of us hate each other, or at least one group of the "other". Add in the one child policy, and you create more fissures in society. Chinese people are selfish. We are driven by money, status, and social ranking. Call the reason war or social upheaval or political affiliation, but most Chinese people are driven only to better themselves and not the greater good of nearly anything, least of all promoting China to the world in an authentic and genuine manner. I say this as a Chinese person who has grown up in Chinese culture and earns a living trying to get people excited about China and Chinese culture.

    For two summers, I trained Hanban guest teachers before we delivered them to Wyoming or whatever random state in the U.S. All of them came because they wanted to immigrate to the US to earn more money. That was my number one question: how do I stay in the US after my contract is over. Second question was, how do I bring my family over. The textbooks were insanely dull with boring generic topics that elicited no critical thinking or cultural analysis. It literally didn't teach anything beyond the language, pandas and for older kids, historical figures, if at all. Unmotivated teachers teaching an aimless, directionless and unengaging curriculum. No wonder Confucius Institutes aren't doing well.

    It's a combination of these reasons why China and its government has struggled to spread its culture out in an effective and engaging way. (a), The PRC doesn't even really know what is "true" Chinese cultural identity because they still are trying to maintain a fine mix of Mao ideals, and (b) Chinese people have been conditioned over generations to look out of themselves and their family so there's no universal pride or motivation to promote the greater good.

    [–]razorl 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    As a Chinese this kind of post is always stunning...Almost the same as a expat in China listen to one of our politic class teacher (yes we have politic class) telling us how bad capitalism is...

    [–]GodsAreTired 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (10子コメント)

    Thanks for the quality post. I think it's a doubly bad situation not only because Chinese culture can't flourish in China, but also because those people who leave because of cultural suppression seem not to realise that they're supposed to integrate into their new country's culture.

    As an Australian I often see immigrant families who just don't understand this necessity. And it's frequently Chinese more than SE asian or Indian.

    [–]souverianwerewe 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    I agree with you in some levels, but I think assimilation is a more complicated matter that's tied a lot to this discussion of cultural identity. Many Chinese people have been, in a sense, displaced all their lives. After the civil war ended in 1949, a large population of the educated, elite, wealthy or simply Nationalist sympathizers left the country and never returned. My family went to Taiwan, some traveled to Southeast Asia, the more well connected ones went West. Eventually most people settled into one country (usually America, Canada, a Western Europe nation, Australia) after a generation and because they have continually been branded outsiders, they carved out little nitches of their own. These ethnic enclaves basically are microeconomics that serve a very specific population, like modern day Chinatowns without the tourist draw. You can essentially live, work, eat, shop, socialize within these bubbles, so many immigrants see no need to understand the "outside" world, which coincidentally is the country they immigrated to. It's not right and it's not a good strategy in the long run, more of a gauze wrap on a broken arm, but it's a greater sense of home than many have ever had.

    My parents have been in the US for over 40 years: my mom barely speaks English and my dad's social circle is only comprised of Chinese geezers like him. American food and experienced are wholly "foreign" to them. It's actually quite amazing to see.

    The concept of an "ancestral home" 故鄉 is incredibly important in Chinese culture, lots of mythology and traditional thinking stems from where your ancestors come from. Home and family is basically the de facto religion of Chinese culture. I have never lived in China and yet I'm asked all the time where my ancestral home is, in that case my great-grandparents' hometown. My dad has never lived in Hunan yet he speaks with a Hunan accent. He told me he cried when he visited his grandmother's childhood home for the first time in his 30s. Home is a very weighty issue for Chinese people and many are too proud or ignorant to realize we have no home. We're constantly branded as outsiders, never truly belonging anywhere, even if we speak the language and social norms. Even in Taiwan, we were labeled as 外省人 which basically translates as "outsiders" [people from outside province].

    My grandmother is 98, she left Shandong when she was 21 and never returned. She has lived in the US for 30 years and Taiwan for almost 50 years before that. She still speaks a Shandong dialect, has never learned Mandarin, Taiwanese or English. In many ways, that's the only connection she has to her past and her family.

    Is it ignorant? Yeah probably. And ineffective to a large degree. But you see this with a lot of immigrant populations who left countries they can't return to. They bring a large part of their home country to the new country and try to build and burrow themselves in a small imitation of home.

    [–]komnenos 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Where in Shandong was your grandma from? Several of my best friends are from Shandong (Jinan and Binzhou) and although they do have a heavy hick accent (their words not mine) they've always told me that its just Mandarin with a heavy accent and not its own distinct dialect like Gan, Hakka, Cantonese or Min.

    [–]xiefeilaga 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Actually, linguistics would define that "heavily accented Mandarin" as a dialect of Mandarin, and Hakka, Cantonese and Min as languages within the Chinese language family (alongside Mandarin). The line is drawn at "mutual intelligibility." A Beijing Mandarin speaker can, at least after a few shots of baijiu, figure out what the Shandong grandma is saying. No amount of liquor in the world will help him to figure out Min, though they may be able to communicate a bit via writing.

    [–]komnenos 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Oh I am well aware of all that, I guess I didn't make myself clear.

    I thought OP by calling Shandongese a dialect was putting it on par with Cantonese, Wu and the other ""dialects"" (which besides the writing system are their own languages entirely). China is so weird about this stuff, just call them languages damn it!

    [–]xiefeilaga 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Part of the issue is that China hesitates to call them separate languages, because that might lead to disunity (gotta love that CCP logic).

    My favorite quote is that "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

    [–]souverianwerewe 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Qingdao 青島. My grandmothers speak Shandong and Hunan dialects respectively and despite the fact I've never been to either province, I can understand them pretty well. There's some grammar structure that's not the same and they have different words for specific items. It's still considered a dialect but i would say Mandarin speakers can understand them.

    [–]komnenos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If anything I would consider it a dialect of the Mandarin language. I'm learning Mandarin in college and I can understand the Shandong "dialect." It just sounds like heavily accented Mandarin.

    [–]Sharamik 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This is a really important point, the PRC has spent so long suppressing its own culture and what it promotes is the government interpretation of what Chinese culture should look like, making it all seems very hollow.

    I'm a kung fu practitioner, our grandmaster fled China during the revolution, where martial arts groups were seen as a threat and were suppressed. Nowadays the Chinese government pushes wushu as the 'official' martial art of China, but it has more in common with gymnastics and dance than anything with real martial application.

    [–]Facts_About_Cats 123 ポイント124 ポイント  (132子コメント)

    The world doesn't want the taste of authoritarianism. We detest it.

    [–]lit0st 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Chinese cultural contribution isn't necessarily a reflection of the government. It really is ridiculous to bundle every element of a vast and diverse nation under a single banner like that. Mo Yan won the Nobel Prize for literature. Jackie Chan and martial arts movies are probably the most successful exports, though few and far between.

    It's also abundantly clear that you did not read the actual post, because nowhere does the post claim that foreign rejection of Chinese cultural exports resides on idealogical grounds. It just so happens that the kind of culture China is trying its hardest to export is either just straight up bad or uninteresting to the west.

    [–]Facts_About_Cats 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The article mentions the Confucius Institute. They have a horrible reputation for anti-academic behavior.

    [–]ZedOud 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    You'd be mistaken if you thought authoritarianism wasn't the fundamental shaper of exported material the way OP said.

    The problem isn't that the government affects every aspect of culture a little, some material is good even still; it is more that there is a bad taste for the culture as a whole because of all the little influences.

    [–]lit0st 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    The government chooses what to export, but what they choose to export is not rejected because it's a reflection of their authoritarianism - it's rejected because it's ancient China-influenced media that holds minimal interest to the modern foreign consumer. Its lack of success is apolitical, unlike what OP says.

    I wouldn't say that there exists a prejudice against Chinese culture as a consequence, if that's what you're suggesting. Things that resonate with the West still manage to find success. As the bestof post mentions, Chinese independent filmmakers receive considerable respect in the art film circuit.

    On the opposite end of the spectrum, take the dating show, If You Are the One. It's some totally trite nonsense that has managed to find decent success in Australia that I feel, with the right momentum, could find worldwide success.

    [–]ZedOud 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    The problem isn't the material that reaches or doesn't reach markets outside of China.

    The problem is the little changes that each and every piece of material is subjected to be able to be published in the first place, let alone to be considered for export.

    [–]shepards_hamster 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Jackie Chan and martial arts movies

    But those mostly came from Hong Kong when it was still under British rule.

    [–]Gumburcules 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    The world doesn't want the taste of authoritarianism.

    I don't know.

    If China would invest some capital to make sure I could get a decent xiao long bao or cumin lamb or mapo tofu delivered to my house instead of 10 places that sell the same fried chicken balls covered in sugar sauce I would totally take a taste of that delicious, delicious authoritarianism.

    Oh, and char siu bao. You know what, just put a combination dim sum/sichuan joint in my neighborhood and I'll start fighting my imperialist American dog-brothers right now.

    [–]daskrip 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hell yes. Food here is completely different from food in China, and I feel it paints a bad picture. People think it's mostly cheap food with low standards but I'd love for them to try Sao zi ho po mian (or whatever that xi'an dish is called), or real Sichuan hot pot, or even shanghai's fast food dumplings.

    [–]woprdotmil 28 ポイント29 ポイント  (107子コメント)

    either do chinese people, but they dont get a choice :(

    [–]dbarbera 139 ポイント140 ポイント  (37子コメント)

    You'd be surprised how many Chinese are perfectly fine with how their country is run.

    [–]Cilicia 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yeah, I've heard from a prof that there's a sort of uneasy acceptance of the Chinese government. As long as the government continues to grow the economy at >5% a year, most people are willing to put up it's authoritarianism. If growth starts to slow then there may be pressure for political reform.

    [–]BuckminsterJones 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    And slow it will. It is my understanding that from the late 60s through to relatively recently, vast numbers of subsistence farmers were moving into the cities, and for economic purposes materializing out of thin air, mostly young and healthy and ready to work. But the supply is slowing to a trickle, and combined with the low birth-rate, they are heading towards a much different demographic spread.

    [–]woprdotmil 44 ポイント45 ポイント  (23子コメント)

    I work with shitloads of chinese phds that were so happy with china that they left and moved their families to the west.

    [–]DaystarEld 162 ポイント163 ポイント  (17子コメント)

    Sample bias. Obviously the Chinese you're exposed to outside of China are more likely to dislike it: that's why they left.

    Same thing with ex-patriots from Cuba. There are plenty of Cubans living in Cuba that are more or less okay with it, but they're not the ones that hopped on a boat and came to the US.

    [–]komnenos 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    From the Chinese I know who moved abroad and those who do want to move abroad they couldn't give a damn about the government. Its just that we have better universities and opportunities out here.

    [–]Jombozeus 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    And that is because the Chinese people who moved abroad are rich, and don't need to care about the government. Americans who are rich generally don't care about the government either.

    [–]NeedsMoreBatman 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    actually it's a bit of both. people in china are kind of content, but given the opportunity, yeah they'd rather live somewhere with better standards of living. it's not just sample bias

    source: living in china

    [–]conquer69 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    People that dislike China or Cuba also know there is something better out there.

    It's hard to dislike Cuba if you were born there, are bombarded with propaganda daily and don't know anything better. Even if you know about it, that doesn't mean it's within your grasp. Better convince yourself Cuba is the best because deep down you know you will never be able to leave.

    If you want to do a proper test, you would need to let people live in China, the US, Europe, etc and let them choose at the end which one they liked more.

    No one would choose Cuba in their right mind. If they had the resources, they would probably move their entire families and friends out.

    [–]savorie 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I was born in the U.S. to Cuban immigrant parents. My parents definitely chose to leave, but a lot of their relatives (brothers, sisters, cousins) chose to stay. Those relatives even visited the States multiple times, and we had resources where we could have moved them here if they wanted to be here, but they chose to stay, even having had a taste of America. They had thought it over, and had bought into communism. They were literally okay with being doctors, yet being poor.

    I have a cousin my age who grew up in Cuba, left it to study in Canada, and visited the U.S. once, but has no plans or desires to ever live here. He'd rather be either in Cuba or Canada. Both appeal to him in different ways.

    [–]13104598210 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    And I've met a few Chinese people who left to the west because they want to (and I quote) "take over the U.S. and help China rule the world."

    [–]honestthrowout 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    did you report these people to the government? hahaha.

    [–]Hautamaki 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Just as an experiment--ask them how they think it would work out for China if they suddenly became a full democracy tomorrow. I'd bet the majority of them would say the same thing the Chinese government does: the Chinese people are not ready for true democracy. Maybe the PhDs are ready for democracy, got tired of waiting for it to come to China, and moved to a democracy. But the PhDs are probably among the first who would say that a great majority of Chinese people are not PhDs.

    [–]daskrip 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (58子コメント)

    There is really some kind of misconception about life in China... I've lived in shanghai for a semester and did some traveling. It's much cooler than any western city. The many Chinese friends I have love it too, and although the crowdedness is a bad point for them, they agree that it's a wonderful city. Life there is perfectly normal. Everyone is nice and pretty much does whatever they want. The "government oppression" you're talking only extends insofar as to restrict certain topics for journalists. It's not like everyone there is a slave without any kind of life... Why do people think that?

    As for poor cities in the western parts, I can't say much. Maybe it's bad there.

    [–]Hautamaki 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I felt the same way my first half-year in China. After 11 years, you start to get a whole different feeling about just how free people really are. It's not just a government/political thing; this is a culture of obligation. Everyone has a prescribed role to fill and a very heavy obligation to fill that role. With no guaranteed social safety net or public institutions, like schooling, healthcare, legal services, welfare, or public pension, the overwhelming majority of your life is spent just ensuring a measure of security for yourself and your family, and that means amassing wealth. Only wealth matters in this country, because if you don't have the cash, you will quite literally die starving on the street, or die on the hospital steps, or die in prison convicted of a crime you didn't commit. Only money can save you from these things and in the course of your entire life, sooner or later you or someone in your family will hit a patch of bad luck and then only cash will save you. I don't really call that freedom, even setting aside political concerns about freedom of expression, freedom of association, and so on.

    [–]mao_intheshower 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (10子コメント)

    If you were in a college in Shanghai, you were in the most free part of the country at the most free part of your life. Earlier than that, your classmates would be worried about the gaokao, which can take years of preparation, with no life. (This is one of the first forms of institutional discrimination they will encounter, as the results depend on the province and are skewed, believe it or not, against the more disadvantaged parts of the country.)

    Then suppose you wanted to stay there and actually make a living. Shanghai is somewhat better run then other places - in Guangzhou, you have to worry about the mob, while in Beijing practically everything revolves around government relationships. Nevertheless, there is a lack of trust pervading all aspects of life, which I can assure you you didn't experience yourself as a foreigner visiting (Southern Chinese are all very polite to foreigners.)

    I don't want to pen out a whole essay here, but the closer you get to the top, the weirder things get. Of course you have some options on a Friday night nowadays, but the ability to make actual meaningful choices about your life is quite restricted.

    [–]capitalsfan08 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    restrict certain topics for journalists

    Wow, I wish that was all the human rights violations China had. They JUST abolished work camps for political prisoners.

    Source on Chinese Human Rights

    [–]daskrip 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I was mainly referring to people's everyday lives in eastern China, which are perfectly normal for the most part. I agree that there are major human rights violations elsewhere.

    [–]woprdotmil 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (26子コメント)

    I lived there for a while for work. the people with connections and or money have a nice life. those without or those that have interests that are contrary to the narrow social guidelines are oppressed and miserable.

    [–]komnenos 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    I have a few friends from working class China. Not sure who you met but from my talking with them life is hard but far from miserable.

    [–]daskrip 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (19子コメント)

    I didn't see that at all. Every student I met in my school seemed perfectly fine, and they varied greatly - some were outgoing and some (most) very shy. Almost everyone was middle-class.

    Even the older folks that run street food stands or family restaurants, or work as a security guard, or clean up the roads at night, pretty much everyone I talked to was normal and usually cheerful. All signs I've seen show me that quality of life there is quite high. There are some really happy happenings there I'm sure you've seen, that western countries don't have, like the frequent group of older folks dancing in a square, or the big culture of hanging out at night eating barbecued food at night and laughing loudly.

    edit: Sorry, I should have been more clear with that last point. I was trying to say that the "hanging out at night" is much more prominent there than here. It's completely normal to see a crowd around a street food stand at 1 or 2 AM in Shanghai. That's something I love.

    [–]Appathy 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    that western countries don't have, like the ... big culture of hanging out at night eating barbecued food at night and laughing loudly.

    Yeah, that never happens in America...

    [–]Malician 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    "the big culture of hanging out at night eating barbecued food at night and laughing loudly"

    I feel this has to be sarcasm

    [–]woprdotmil 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    it is not unusual that western students in china are presented with a curated view of life in china. you must ask yourself why so many of the educated and wealthy leave, and why they go through such painstaking efforts to send their children out of the country.. unless they are from hong kong, where they can live relatively free by western standards.

    speaking of things western countries dont have, how about people shitting on the street.

    [–]friendlyallamerican 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    People in China leave for the US not because of some bullshit "freedom" excuse. They leave because the US pays higher wages, has all the universities at the top of the rankings, and because it has lower pollution. I can guarantee that 99% of Chinese immigrants to the US aren't here to publish their political opinions. These people seeking a higher quality of life don't give a fuck about "freedom" and don't even vote.

    [–]daskrip 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    I think your view of China is kind of skewed. Hong Kong is far from the only developed city in China. Cities in these eastern areas, where the population is densest, are developed, and people there lead normal lives by our standards. In fact, in a lot of those cities I would say life is better, but that's my personal bias. I love Chinese food and beautiful lit-up areas like most of Shanghai.

    People want to leave China for various reasons. In the western parts I'm sure it's just as you say - they want better lives. People in the eastern parts probably leave for the same reason that we enter. They want to travel. English also happens to be a universal language that brings tons of career opportunities to them if they know it, and living in an English-speaking country is a great way to learn. Also China's population is very homogenous, and I'm sure people want to have some variety.

    And crapping on the streets? Okay, I saw that once in Shanghai in my 170-ish days there. It was really weird, and not anywhere near the walkway. Shanghai also has world class education, the best transportation system ever, an actual maglev train in commercial use, tons of arcades, and this, so there's that.

    [–]woprdotmil 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Hong Kong is far from the only developed city in China.

    in terms of freedom, its by far the most progressive part of china. thats why residents of hong kong are less likely to turn up elsewhere, as I'm sure you've noticed.

    an actual maglev train in commercial use, tons of arcades, and this

    freedom > *

    [–]ltristain 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    There are a lot of reasons wealthy people in China might want to leave China, but I don't really think freedom is the big one. Instead, factors like education, environment, stability, and prestige are probably all higher. Western degrees are a lot more impressive, western environments are cleaner, food is more trustworthy, and the air is better, the economy isn't as turbulent so your life will be more stable, and regardless of reality there's a cultural tendency to put the west on a higher pedestal.

    [–]qwicksilfer 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    China's population isn't all that homogeneous. It's just that in the east it is homogeneous and there is discrimination by Han Chinese against all other ethnic groups.

    Also, if you want to be religious and not follow exactly the religious teachings approved by the government, China is not a pleasant place.

    [–]daskrip 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    china's population is almost entirely Han, isn't it?
    it's not as homogenous as Japan, but still up there

    also, you can look into Wikipedia's "religion in China" section to see that the majority is atheist, but still various religions are practiced, which are mostly Buddhism and Christianity if I recall correctly.

    [–]The_Unreal 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Try throwing some tea into a harbor. I hear that works well.

    [–]mozumder 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    It's not authoritarianism that the world doesn't want, it's conservatism. A conservative has no idea about creation of new art, which is why they're generally terrible at it.

    And you see this all throughout the world, including the US. Conservatives are just terrible at producing art. How many hollywood movies are created by conservatives? How many conservative comedians are there? Conservative musicians? Fashion designers? They're extremely rare, and the ones that exist are typecast and predictable in their art output. You know they're not pushing the edge. I edit photos for a living, and I can always tell the political nature of a photographer just by the photos they produce. There is a clear stylistic difference between conservatives and liberals in photography, just like there is in comedy and the other arts. A conservatives mindset just isn't conducive to creativity. They're far better at being police officers or real-estate agents or other functions where they don't need to be creative. That's just their mindset, and why they don't appeal to society.

    This is whats happening in China, where conservatives have the power, and they have NO idea how to produce new art. They don't know that the world is interested in new art, because old art isn't interesting. Their idea of art is traditional opera, instead of something new like Ai Wei Wei's works.

    [–]jmann329 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Eh, Clint Eastwood? some of the top grossing movies of the past decade including American Sniper and Gran Turino?

    [–]tossitoverboard2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Poe's Law though. Many claim that these movies are actually deconstructions of the conservative worldview, but conservatives can't see that.

    [–]Queef-Latinah 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    The stylistic difference point you raised sounds very interesting. Could you show an example, or explain how they differ ?

    [–]mozumder 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Let me find a couple of quick examples:

    Conservative photography: http://www.modelmayhem.com/223024 (picked the first one I found on that site)

    Liberal photography: http://ryanmcginley.com/photographs-2/2004-2/ (well known photographer)

    One looks like it was produced by a police officer that shouldn't give up his day job. They have no statement to make, and probably think of art as stupid. Their primary purpose anyways is to pick up chicks. Very non-beautiful.

    The other looks like it was produced by a Brooklyn hipster, all artsy and sensitive and beautiful and shit. They have a statement to make with their photos, and picking up chicks is just a possible side-benefit (note that in this example, Ryan McGinley is gay). Even Terry Richardson makes a strong statement with a beautiful aesthetic to his work, which is why editors love him.

    [–]David_McGahan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Lots of old art is interesting, but party bureaucrats are going to have a hard time convincing anyone else in the rest of the world that Peking opera is enjoyable.

    [–]mozumder 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Old art doesn't appeal to the masses. To draw audiences, you need something new.

    [–]SpikeRosered 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    There's a chinese theatre troupe that performs in my home city often and they are the main source of chinese theatre as far as I know. My wife went to a show once and I guess the troupe is from an ousted social group in China and part of the show is to raise awareness abou the evils of the Chinese regime.

    [–]xiefeilaga 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I believe they're backed by the Falun Gong

    [–]souverianwerewe 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Are you talking about Shen Yun? They're trying to promote "true" Chinese culture, not censored or affected by the PRC. I haven't seen it but I heard its pretty good.

    [–]komnenos 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Shen Yun is part of the Falun Gong cult. I've actually heard mixed reviews about it, supposedly the whole act talks about how oppressed the Falun Gong are and turn the whole production into one big showcase about Falun Gong's struggle and less about "true" Chinese culture.

    [–]SpikeRosered 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Can't say for sure, but they advertise all over the city. If I see one of their ads again I will confirm. But that sound about right.

    [–]souverianwerewe 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Probably Shen Yun. They're very cult-like and its members are incredibly dedicated. They do a lot of advertising.

    [–]komnenos 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    They're very cult-like

    Thats because they are part of a cult (Falun Gong).

    [–]qwicksilfer 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's pretty good. It's a little weird, mostly it's Chinese fables and myths. It's beautiful, though. There was one little segment that was about their oppression and then a talk in the middle about China's views on their sect.

    [–]sayerofstuff 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If the world wanted it, it would be being smuggled out whether the party liked it or not.

    [–]Ian1732 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Maybe they should just try building more hotels and airports.

    [–]mph1204 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I think this has been traditionally true but is changing with China's roll in the tech world. Companies like Alibaba and Xiaomi are both attracting foreign talent and learning what the overseas market wants. I think the new leadership has also shown more flexibility in allowing companies do what they need to do to compete with Western companies. Hopefully some of this will lead to opening up in other industries and the arts.

    [–]GIVES_SOLID_ADVICE 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Refreshing to hear something nice about the US government, though a little smeared by the whole CIA thing.

    [–]Often_Downvoted 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    First you need to build a monument, then a temple, then an opera house, and a museum. Add a broadcast tower and you're good to go.

    [–]TrueKamilo 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    [–]Vakieh 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    China has had a culture incompatible with anybody but China for millennia. If nobody but China can be the Middle Kingdom, why the fuck would anybody subscribe to the Middle Kingdom world view? It's ludicrous.

    [–]komnenos 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    why the fuck would anybody subscribe to the Middle Kingdom world view

    Then explain why Korea, Japan (to some extent) and Vietnam took their writing system, philosophies and government style for thousands of years.

    [–]Vakieh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Considering they each have their own languages, religion, alphabets, social structures, that sounds a whole lot like common ancestry rather than cultural adoption, doesn't it?

    [–]komnenos 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Sounds like they adopted a government system, writing system and philosophy system emulating China doesn't it?

    Yes they have their own languages but again we are talking about culture here and those three nations and (to a lesser extent) SEA have been culturally influenced by China for thousands of years.

    [–]Mayson023 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

    They've had good luck with the fortune cookie. They should just put all of their culture in cookie form.

    [–]thefoolofemmaus 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    That's actually most likely Japanese.

    [–]angrystan 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Not merely originating from Japan, but the phenomenon of the fortune cookie is as American as pizza, tacos or chow mein.

    [–]Bobblefighterman 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Fortune cookies are as Chinese as dim sims.

    Just to be clear, i'm not talking about dim sum. I didn't misspell anything, despite 'i' being next to 'u' on the keyboard.

    [–]EndlessBlueSkies 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. I know that fortune cookies are American and not actually seen in China. However, dim sum is very common, especially among Cantonese people. Perhaps you haven't had traditional dim sum? It's quite a different experience.

    [–]Bobblefighterman 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Dim sum is a steamed bun dish, a very popular Chinese food. I never said anything about that. I'm talking about dim sims, which are bigger and doughier, and are usually deep-fried. Chinese people view it as a Western dish, but Westerners view it as a Chinese meal, just like fortune cookies. Dim sims are a Chinese-inspired, Australian-invented food.

    [–]EndlessBlueSkies 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Ah, I see. Hahaha I guess that proves your point even more because I'm Chinese but I have never heard of dim sims!

    [–]Bobblefighterman 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Shame. Traditional dim sims are quite an experience! :P

    [–]xiefeilaga 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Dim sum is very Chinese, Cantonese to be more precise. It may not be all that authentic in the states, but it's a real thing, and taken VERY seriously in Guangdong and Hong Kong.

    Edit: TIL

    [–]Bobblefighterman 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I gather you didn't read what I wrote? Dim sum is a very Chinese dish. I wasn't talking about that. That's why I said 'dim sim', which is a Chinese-inspired Australian-invented dish. They're similar to dim sum, hence the similar name, but the Chinese don't view it as a Chinese food, while us Westerners do, exactly like fortune cookies.

    [–]xiefeilaga 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Ah, I've never heard of dim sim. I took it for a typo.

    [–]Bobblefighterman 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    we call them dimmies. Not many Australians know that it's our invention, which is odd considering we usually crow about our homegrown stuff. :)