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Stevan Jovetic:"I deserve to play in the Champions League. The manager has killed me with this decision" (telegraph.co.uk)
Chelseasriranjant が 9 日 前 投稿
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[–]ArsenalCall_me_Hova 232 ポイント233 ポイント234 ポイント 9 日 前 (65子コメント)
Can you blame him? He played a role in helping them advance and he gets sweeped aside for a player who hasn't even played with the team. He has every right to be pissed
[–]Manchester Citymimmotoast 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 9 日 前 (0子コメント)
Swept*
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile 89 ポイント90 ポイント91 ポイント 9 日 前 (63子コメント)
I know, just like how Diaby must be furious at Aaron Ramsey. From inside his iron lung.
I mean, come on. Jovetic is a fantastically talented footballer, but he's never fit. Bony is rarely injured. Jovetic joined a team specifically because it's buying player after player after player after player after player for success. You can't dance with the devil and complain when your shit smells like brimstone.
"hasn't even played with the team" - seriously? Let me ask you, if you signed Paul Pogba in January and he was injured until February, would you leave him out of your Champions league spots in favour of Zelalem?
[–]Arsenalerrandrum 52 ポイント53 ポイント54 ポイント 9 日 前 (5子コメント)
I see your point, comparing it to pogba/zelalem is lazy though.
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-12 ポイント-11 ポイント-10 ポイント 9 日 前 (4子コメント)
The players aren't the issue, though, I don't know if there's a couple Arsenal players that fit the same situation - I guess I could have used Rosicky a couple years ago and maybe Kroos as the new signing? - but the basic point is there. You have to pick the players who can do the most good, and unfortunately Jovetic can't even be relied upon to be fit, much less sharp. I have all kinds of sympathy for the guy - he's incredibly talented but also works hard, has a good attitude, stays focussed.... he's done everything he's supposed to do, and it's largely things beyond his control that have hurt his career and ambitions. And to have this on top of that sucks, and I'm not at all blaming him for conveying that; it's just the idea that he should be chosen over Bony that I can't abide. It's not even my loyalty to Bony that's the issue, it's the basic logic of the situation that I think is being ignored.
[–]Arsenalerrandrum 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 9 日 前 (3子コメント)
he's done everything he's supposed to do, and it's largely things beyond his control that have hurt his career and ambitions. And to have this on top of that sucks, and I'm not at all blaming him for conveying that; it's just the idea that he should be chosen over Bony that I can't abide.
aye, not disagreeing with you here. but i think the players are the issue (this is purely a reply to your example by the way) jovetic knows if fit he could be a game changer and his quality is comparative to bony (mature, first team players). pogba/zelalem is no comparison in that regard. of course id put pogba instead of zelalem, he's a kid who hasnt proven himself at all in first team football literally anywhere. i feel you used him to make your point more dramatic.
anyway, moving away from the point. its just a shit situation for him.
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 9 日 前* (2子コメント)
i feel you used him to make your point more dramatic.
I definitely exaggerated it to make the flaw in his argument more pronounced. I think the difference between choosing between Bony and Jovetic is already pretty obvious, so there isn't much room for examples that doesn't end up being heavily exaggerated. I mean, we're already talking about a good player who's fit and sharp and a good player who's rarely the former and almost never the latter. It's not an issue of quality, it's an issue of logic and I haven't yet seen a logical argument for Jovetic; any argument without a counter-argument is going to have to his some extremes. All that felt obvious to me but I've encountered a lot of disagreement so far and none of it to do with my actual argument, so maybe I've failed to read my audience.
[–]Arsenalerrandrum 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 9 日 前 (1子コメント)
i definitely get your point. its a problem i feel only a club like man city would have. anyone else would pine on the fitness and form of a quality striker they'd previously bought. bony is better now and adds value now so they brought him in.
lets see how it goes.
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント 9 日 前 (0子コメント)
Oh, fuck Man City, definitely. All my sympathy lies with Jovetic and none with those twats, but the fact is that it's the right decision from a footballing perspective to pick Bony over Jovetic - assuming that's the choice here - and arguing the loyalty angle doesn't really work either in a situation where Jovetic is both a mercenary and one who hasn't done enough to earn unflinching loyalty.
[–]OlivierGiroud 235 ポイント236 ポイント237 ポイント 9 日 前* (56子コメント)
You're comparing a 17 yo reserve player to Jovetic.
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-15 ポイント-14 ポイント-13 ポイント 9 日 前 (11子コメント)
Why've you edited your comment and deleted your others? Does it change my point about his comment? He claims argues one player has a right over another because he's played for them - do you stand by that? I'd love to hear you address the actual argument.
[+][削除されました] 9 日 前 (10子コメント)
[deleted]
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-15 ポイント-14 ポイント-13 ポイント 9 日 前 (9子コメント)
Now we're talking.
Christ, I leave reddit for 2 months and this is how bad it gets?
[+][削除されました] 9 日 前 (8子コメント)
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-19 ポイント-18 ポイント-17 ポイント 9 日 前 (7子コメント)
I'd buy you gold for that but I'm homeless.
[–]ArsenalPires007 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 9 日 前 (3子コメント)
Well that got depressing really fast.
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 9 日 前 (2子コメント)
I can handle the cold, it's the lack of debate here that really drives me back to the needle.
[–]CHarse 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 8 日 前 (0子コメント)
of the 500,000 subs you moderate, none pay you??!??
[–]United Statesanotherbean 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 9 日 前 (1子コメント)
Reddit is a good use for your BA in English
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 9 日 前* (0子コメント)
You ever read The Boxcar Children and The Mystery of the Orphan Train? It's a classic.
I usually have to actually work to make people feel talked-down to. What have I actually said that was OTT? And can someone actually argue with my basic point? Because nobody's actually told me if I'm wrong or not. I thought we came here to talk about football rather than basic literacy.
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-66 ポイント-65 ポイント-64 ポイント 9 日 前 (41子コメント)
No I'm not, I'm making a facetious parallel to draw attention to the inanity of the argument. I shouldn't have to explain that to you. Basic reading comprehension isn't complicated. Can I know which educational system failed you?
[–]Toronto FCJamon_Iberico 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 9 日 前 (18子コメント)
What happened to your Arsenal crest?
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 9 日 前 (17子コメント)
It's never existed, is what happened. Why?
[–]Toronto FCJamon_Iberico 17 ポイント18 ポイント19 ポイント 9 日 前 (15子コメント)
I must be going insane buddie, no worries.
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11 ポイント-10 ポイント-9 ポイント 9 日 前 (13子コメント)
Am I getting downvoted for never having had an Arsenal crest? The internet is funny.
[–]Western Sydney WanderersOstapBenderBey 21 ポイント22 ポイント23 ポイント 9 日 前 (8子コメント)
No. Its because your argument is poor and also because you are trying to score points by proving how 'educated' you are
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-25 ポイント-24 ポイント-23 ポイント 9 日 前* (7子コメント)
What's my poor argument? Poor enough to have all my unrelated comments tarred by association? Also, you realise the only guy I've been conspicuously "smart" to has been the guy who's being conspicuously stupid, right?
[–]picturemehappy 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 9 日 前 (3子コメント)
I think the assumption here might be that you are some sort of Arsenal fan in disguise trying to shit on MC (?) maybe? It is very interesting how a random out of place question attracts some sort of downvote reaction....even towards you who I've always seen like one of the most recognizable users on /r/soccer and have always had your Swansea crest.
[–]Liverpoolunusuallylethargic 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 9 日 前 (1子コメント)
That's quite funny because he is really a 'secret' fan of Liverpool, so I doubt he has much love for arsenal.
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10 ポイント-9 ポイント-8 ポイント 9 日 前 (0子コメント)
Possible... would it help if I called Jack Wilshere a short, fragile Lee Bowyer?
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9 ポイント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント 9 日 前 (0子コメント)
It's the weekend, we've all been there.
[–]LiverpoolEvery_Geth -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 9 日 前 (0子コメント)
They'll downvote anything these days
[–]Columbus Crew SCpigsurfers 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 9 日 前 (8子コメント)
Someone stumbled upon a thesaurus
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-14 ポイント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント 9 日 前 (7子コメント)
Nah, I'm just educated.
[–]PartizanDannybaker 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 9 日 前 (6子コメント)
Lol are you serious mate
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント 9 日 前 (5子コメント)
Yep, I went to school and everything.
[–]Arsenalmadbunnyrabbit 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 9 日 前 (0子コメント)
Ahhh..... So you support Swansea, but you're not actually from Swansea.
[–]United Statesanotherbean 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 9 日 前* (3子コメント)
Oh god. Come on man..... It's okay to be smart, it's not okay to be a douchebag about how smart you are. Everyone can use polysyllabic words.
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 9 日 前 (2子コメント)
I genuinely didn't realise reddit had gotten to the point where "facetious" was considered ostentatiously smart. Look above and you'll also see that I'm talking to a guy who's being deliberately obtuse. Christ on a fucking bike. I didn't think I was talking down to anyone but that one dude until a bunch of people rushed to tell me I was trying to be smart. I don't know whether to feel good about myself or bad about some of you.
[–]Arsenalskymallow 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 9 日 前 (3子コメント)
Bony -> Jovetic compared to Pogba -> Zelalem is a silly parallel to make. If you can't see that then no educational system can save you.
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 9 日 前 (2子コメント)
Do you actually think my argument is about those players? Have you missed that I'm using Pogba and Zalelam as hyperbole to illustrate the flaw in his argument? Am I actually being criticised for acting too smart by using rhetorical techniques we learn before we hit college?
[–]Chelseathehandsomelyraven 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 8 日 前* (1子コメント)
Yes. Because in college we learn how flawed the logic you are using actual is. No one is saying pogba isn't better than zalelam. No one is saying that by recent form Jovetic is better than bony. We are saying that Jovetic is being mistreated. By drawing that comparison you are creating the illusion of a different argument, and one that we aren't really having. That's a straw man. It's a logical fallacy.
You've been talking a lot about reading comprehension, but you've been taking most any rebuttal at face value instead of considering the general assumption we are all arguing under.
Jovetic should be in the squad. Why? Because he played in CL qualifiers. What connects these two? Our shared sense that footballers are not commodities.
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 8 日 前* (0子コメント)
Thank you for at least responding. I only mentioned Pogba-Zelalem in the first place to point out how flawed I find the argument that there's something wrong with selecting a player who can probably benefit the team over a player who likely won't. I picked an Arsenal player because I was talking to an Arsenal fan. It's really that simple, but when the response is "you're comparing Zelalem and Jovetic", I don't know how NOT to respond to bemusement.
My point was simple - as a fan, you'd be furious if your team picked a player who's never fit over an expensive player who's both fit and in form. Jovetic is a good player whom I like a lot, but it's hard to argue he's earned a place in that restricted squad, and borderline irresponsible to select him over Bony. The fact that a throwaway comparison is what all the subsequent debate has been about rather than that point is kinda frustrating. A good way to kill time between overs (I'm one of those sad bastards who likes cricket) but still, frustrating. It call it "a silly parallel" is even more annoying when the whole point of the parallel is to be an absurd extreme. There's people here saying Bony "hasn't earned his place in the squad" - that's close to the stupidest thing I've ever seen on reddit, and that prompted the absurd comparison as much as anything.
And Jovetic being used as a commodity is a decision he made, I feel bad for him because he's always seemed like a decent guy, a hard-working player and a victim of injuries, but he's not a victim of circumstance; he chose those circumstances. That's why I don't think he's being mistreated, he chose a team that's buying success with the full knowledge that more players would be bought at his expense. He has a league winners' medal from last season because of that choice. My whole point wasn't who is better, it's that there's only one logical choice between the two and that's all there is to it - the same as if Pogba went to Arsenal and displaced a lesser player who'd had to work harder to earn his place. Shit is rough, have sympathy but nobody's being mistreated here.
Has anyone mentioned any other players that could be dropped for Jovetic? Because the focus seems solely on Bony, who was signed for so much money specifically for his immediate and consistent impact.
[–]notheusernameiwanted 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 9 日 前 (3子コメント)
You're making a strawman argument and dressing it up in 5 dollar words doesn't make it any less of a straw man. So really you're just doubling down on bad logic.
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 8 日 前 (2子コメント)
What's the strawman, exactly? Because I feel like a lot of people have misunderstood my comment, deliberately or otherwise.
I'm not going to get over the fact that "facetious" is apparently too big a word for some people, so I'll just live with that bit I guess.
[–]notheusernameiwanted 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 8 日 前 (1子コメント)
If you'd stuck with the paragraph in the middle you would've been fine, in that paragraph you outline reasons that a manager would choose Bony over Jovetic. That's an example of good logical debate.
When you use a comparison of a player better than Bony taking the spot of a player much worse than Jovetic, that's when you have created a strawman argument. Bony and Jovetic are players of comparable talent to imply that its obvious that Bony should play over Jovetic based off of talent is untrue.
The use of Facetious is not the reason people are taking issue with your comment.
[–]Swansea Cityseveredfragile 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 8 日 前 (0子コメント)
But I feel like the comparison is pretty clearly not meant to be taken seriously beyond showing how the illogical the sentimental approach is. I figured the Ramsey-Diaby line would make that pretty clear. I don't see how it's a strawman when it's not even a real argument I'm making. The whole point was that you bring in the player who's most likely to be effective, focussing on the throwaway names I mentioned rather than the argument I made isn't going to make me start taking the objections seriously. And I don't think I really turned on the arrogance until I got the response about my comparing Zalelam and Jovetic, which I think is a misinterpretation that deserves a little derision. Whatever, I guess.
[–]treeGuerin 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 8 日 前 (0子コメント)
Wow bro, you sound like a cool guy.
[+][削除されました] 9 日 前 (3子コメント)
[+]Swansea Cityseveredfragile スコアが基準値未満のコメント-14 ポイント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント 9 日 前* (2子コメント)
You can't argue with deliberately obtuse.
Translation: If you're going to choose to not understand my point, I don't really think I should be criticised for not dumbing it down. Is your argument really that my point went over your head?
[+][削除されました] 9 日 前 (1子コメント)
You know embracing stupidity doesn't make me wrong, right? I mean, I responded to an argument by pointing out its obvious flaw. You don't have to address my argument in any way or even respect the concept of debate, but is this really the way you want conversation to work?
[+]ArsenalBothBankHighbury スコアが基準値未満のコメント-18 ポイント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント 9 日 前* (1子コメント)
wake up Edit: Woah, meant to reply to the other guy, I agree with Olivier
[–]N.E.C.midasz 12 ポイント13 ポイント14 ポイント 9 日 前 (0子コメント)
Grab a brush and put a little make-up
π Rendered by PID 17266 on app-340 at 2015-02-24 15:31:28.401002+00:00 running f5f7fa8 country code: JP.
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