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/r/China Survey (self.China)

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[–]lasting__damage 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (133子コメント)

The end of it said 'contribute the kind of content that you'd like to see', but every time I try to push back against the CCJ2 stuff (I don't find the Rainy/Tim stuff funny, and I find the circlejerk really tiresome) I get downvoted past the threshold and PMs telling me I'm a faggot, so I've given up (edit - for some fun examples, check out this thread).

I visit /r/China, /r/Korea, /r/Japan and /r/Taiwan all a lot, and I don't find any of the others nearly as negative. I'm not sure why - maybe life is more stressful and difficult for foreigners here.

Honestly, I think it's that the circlejerk subreddit spills into here and it's tacitly supported by the mods (some of whom post there, it's linked on the sidebar etc). That's not the case with the other expat subreddits I visit.

I like talking about life in China, I like discussing news articles, I like seeing photos people have taken and hearing their stories.

I don't like seeing heavily upvoted stereotypes, meme references, and weird online clique behaviour. I know I'm not alone in this, but I also know it's not likely to change soon, so it discourages me from trying to contribute more of what I'd like to see.

TL;DR - I think a lot of users don't like the tone of conversation and the cliquey-ness of /r/China, but are discouraged from trying to change it by the tone of conversation and the cliquey-ness of /r/China.

[–]SentientCouchUnited States 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We like and dislike a lot of the same things, it seems. I've been lazy about contributing to this sub, apart from comments. /u/CND-ICEHOLE has a good point; we should post more of what we want to see in this subreddit.

[–]CND-ICEHOLECanada 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (61子コメント)

Don't worry about down votes, or anything coming from CCJ. Post things that you like so others can enjoy them too. Subs are made by the community, not the mods.

[–]lasting__damage 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (54子コメント)

I'm not too sure I agree with the last bit - after a while on reddit, I think it's probably 50/50. The mods are the only ones that can really set the groundrules and enforce them, and that's an important thing when you're moderating a forum that toes the line between frustration and toxic so often (in my opinion)

The downvotes don't bother me, but I'm one user. If things I post get downvoted past the threshold consistently and I get abuse ('go back to Rainy' or whatever), I just get sick of it and move on. And so does everybody else who thinks like me, which is where I think moderation plays a part. Making /r/China better isn't like ending apartheid, so it's difficult to commit time and effort to something relatively unimportant individually when you don't have that support

I'm going to do a better job at trying to turn things around, but from my reddit experience it takes a mod team that are all on the same page about enforcing the rules a certain way to change things at this stage. The rule's there - no memes and circlejerk - but it doesn't get enforced too much.

[–]TheDark1Australia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (50子コメント)

It's a fair comment. I don't think that any of the mods want to completely remove humor from the sub though. The fact is, the overlap between here and the circlejerk sub us so great that it is impossible to really stop that influence. When we added that rule to the sidebar the meaning was that we wanted to end the meta whining to some degree and banish meme pictures and rage comics and the like.

In the end, reddit is like a bar. It has a community and to a certain degree you need to put up with the regulars or choose a new bar.

[–]lasting__damage 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (48子コメント)

I'm not talking about removing humour from the sub. I'm talking about removing the circlejerk, and I don't think it can't be done.

But there's literally no point in individual users attempting to alter the tone of the subreddit if the mod team won't admit there's a problem.

Every month there's a 'why is this subreddit so negative/is this even about China/what is wrong with this community' post that goes to the top, but there's clearly a massive divide between people who think there's a problem and people who think it's hilarious.

[–]TheDark1Australia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (47子コメント)

That's why there's a survey. Your opinion is as valid as the next guys. Let's see what the community wants. I for one hope the community doesn't want constant mod intervention because that's not what reddit is about.

[–]lasting__damage 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (45子コメント)

I dunno man. You posted over in /r/CCJ that people there should vote because -

On.a serious note, it really helps is if you answer honestly because otherwise the sjw nazis will be over represented.

Not thinking the circlejerk is funny isn't being a social justice warrior. It's just lame.

Nobody's asking for humour to be removed, nobody's asking for askscience levels of interference. You're a frequent poster in CCJ, as are all the other active mods as far as I can see. I don't think the playing field is as level as you think it is - moderation sets the tone, and you guys aren't going to change that.

[–]tan_guan[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I think what he means by

it really helps is if you answer honestly because otherwise the sjw nazis will be over represented

is that if people in CCJ treat the survey as a joke and give troll answers then they are wasting their responses.

The key words are "answer honestly", no one is trying make anyone answer in any particular way.

Most importantly, we are doing this because we seriously want to improve the sub. I'm sure all of the other mods feel the same way about this, and we will do our best to analyze the results objectively.

We try our best to be fair and impartial, and we don't delete comments or threads that conflict with our personal views.

The point of this thread was not to have the "/r/China sucks" argument again, but to give you an anonymous outlet to tell us how you feel.

I would perfer to wait for the results and discuss it again when the survey is over, rather than have another massive back and forth about it now.

[–]lasting__damage -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I believe that you believe you try your best to be fair and impartial and effective, but there are rules in the sidebar that aren't enforced, so it doesn't come across that way.

Either way, I am looking forward to the results, and I'm not trying to start a massive back and forth. Thanks again for creating this.

[–]MeganstefanieUnited States 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (8子コメント)

HOW TO NOT START A "MASSIVE BACK AND FORTH"

Step 1: stfu

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            [–]jingzi_factoryMongolia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Here is a solution: start your own sub, run it the way you want and see the results.

            There is nothing stopping you from voicing your opinion, there is nothing stopping you from having a place run the way you want it.

            [–]kanada_kid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            As much as I love Dark1(no homo) couldn't this be considered subreddit brigading?

            [–]lasting__damage -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Depends if you consider /r/China and /r/CCJ2 separate subreddits. It stands to reason that most of the subs of the latter would be subs of the former, but it's just semantics

            [–]Dr_V 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

            Thank you so much for posting this. I agree entirely with you. I don't often contribute content here because 1) I just don't contribute frequently in general on reddit unless I feel I absolutely know what I'm talking about and 2) I feel on this subreddit in particular that the environment is so toxic that any attempt to offer constructive criticism results in a rain of downvotes and now apparently being accused of being some social justice worker.

            I also strongly believe a good moderation team is crucial.

            [–]jingzi_factoryMongolia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            The only content I ever see on here from your account is comments on meta posts complaining about how bad this sub is.

            Post something well thought out, interesting, etc. before you try and complain again.

            [–]TheDark1Australia -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Let's see the results of the survey.

            [–]hittintheairplane 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            I'm really looking forward to any correlations the survey may show between attitudes and whether or not they're in China.

            [–]TheDark1Australia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (12子コメント)

            You seem highly invested in this sub's tone for someone who never posts here. I've never seen your name before today. That's fine, have your say but understand that your are only one user. And remember, you can contribute, vote, and move away from threads you dislike. This is just like society, there are going to be things you dislike, and that's okay.

            [–]lasting__damage -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (11子コメント)

            I change accounts every few months, but I've been visiting here for three years or so.

            Again, there are lots of users like me, but the mod team's policies sideline us in favour of the stuff you guys like. It's not as open and equal as you think.

            [–]TheDark1Australia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

            I really don't understand how the mod policy sidelines you, want to spell it out? I think youre more interested in grinding your axe tbh. It's pretty odd that you call me out for asking people to answer honestly.

            [–]PostNationalismJapan -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            So do the mods of /r/China support racist terminology used here like "nongs" and homophobic slurs like "fa**ot" ? Or is that only for ccj2?

            Anyway this is the ONLY national subreddit that consistently attacks the nation it's about. Pretty weird..

            [–]CND-ICEHOLECanada 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            They should mod me. I'd enforce hardcore.

            [–]zakbro 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            you're a shit moderator

            [–]CND-ICEHOLECanada 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            BANNNED FOR INSULTING USER

            [–]TheDark1Australia 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

            Subs are made by the community

            This is exactly how I see it personally. I must have already posted this a dozen times on reddit, but gandhi really summed it up for me when he said be the change you want to be in the world. And I'd add, don't go full stalin if others don't share your vision.

            [–]CND-ICEHOLECanada -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

            Please edit your comment from 'Stalin' to 'Mao'.

            [–]TheDark1Australia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            You're not my wife.

            [–]CND-ICEHOLECanada 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Don't be so sure. I have many alts.

            [–]TheDark1Australia -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Yep my bad. It turns out you are my wife. Can you please get me a bottle of red star erguotou on the way home, darling dearest? Tonight we go up market!

            [–]CND-ICEHOLECanada -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Sorry sweetie, I'm too busy blowing /u/CND-ICEHOLE to run your errands today <3

            [–]jp599 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (25子コメント)

            Really, it's seriously obnoxious and offensive. Maybe it's funny for frat boys who are into that type of crude humor, but it's annoying for others who don't want to constantly hear about Rainy and Tim, or who think that maybe "nong" isn't the most gracious way to refer to rural Chinese villagers. :-(

            [–]csxnewbie 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (24子コメント)

            CCJ2 is pretty vile and racist. I'm definitely not an SJW but I don't walk around saying the N Word and calling people Jewish slurs, not because its offensive to me personally, but because its horribly juvenile and not funny.

            [–]stedman88 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (5子コメント)

            I agree completely. While I've met plenty of great foreigners here in China, this sub always leaves me thinking the average foreigner here is trash. I'm really glad to see this thread and see that there are plenty of people who have similar feelings towards the Rainy/nong horseshit.

            [–]jingzi_factoryMongolia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

            How many posts have you made in this sub over the past month?

            [–]stedman88 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

            The whole point is that people like myself are uninterested in posting in a forum that is such a cesspool.

            For a group that complains so much about "social justice warriors" you all are awfully quick to present yourselves as victims.

            [–]jingzi_factoryMongolia -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

            Sorry for not posting your opinion and analysis for you?

            [–]stedman88 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            You continue to miss the point. I have no interest in participating in a forum of a bunch of whiny racists and sexists, especially when they have such a victim complex.

            I'm not saying anyone is preventing me from posting here. The point is that there a lot of people uninterested in participating in this forum who would if it weren't for the racism and sexism of people who come here primarily to denigrate Chinese people and other foreigners.

            [–]zakbro 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            people who come here primarily to denigrate Chinese people and other foreigners.

            oh hey look just two posts prior you say:

            this sub always leaves me thinking the average foreigner here is trash.

            cool

            meanwhile you call people dumb shit to further cement your status as a paragon of internet etiquette

            then, just a quick glance at your profile:

            >triggered by nearly everything


>no original content


>english teacher


>another sockpuppet/lurker

            fuck off

            [–]zakbro -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (17子コメント)

            I wasn't trying to be funny, I'm just pointing out you're a fucking loser.

            [–]Dr_V -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (16子コメント)

            So we're not moderating garbage like this is because /u/TheDark1 and /u/tan_guan prefer a laissez-faire wild-west libertarianism style of moderating? Just let bullies be free to bully and if you don't like it then just cross your fingers and hope their hate-filled and vitriolic attacks are downvoted off your screen?

            Don't you guys understand what a nightmare this is?

            [–]tan_guan[S] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            Is this your way of saying you think I should delete the post above?

            We delete hate-speech as often as we can, and remove offensive posts or posts attacking other users when reported. Often it's a judgement call.

            I'm not going to comb through every thread deleting posts containing insults. Where do you draw the line? Do we ban ad hominem attacks? Do we ban the word fuck and delete it every time it's posted?

            Personally, if someone called me a fucking idiot, I'd rather the mods didn't delete it. I'm an adult and I can take care of my own internet arguments. I moderate in the same way.

            That said, some posts cross the line, and racist, sexist homophobic slurs are always deleted. If you see one that has slipped under the radar, please report it.

            Also, please try to remember that you are just one person with an opinion, and that out there somewhere is someone else with the opposite opinion. Why should we act on yours and not theirs? For everyone that says "Delete more comments!" there is someone who yells "Free speech! No comment deletion!"

            Please bear this in mind when calling on the moderators to do what you think they should be doing. Hopefully the survey will tell us what the community thinks we should be doing.

            [–]zakbro 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (14子コメント)

            Just let bullies be free to bully and if you don't like it then just cross your fingers and hope their hate-filled and vitriolic attacks are downvoted off your screen?

            calm down there, kemosabe. before you let your triggering take over, let's provide some proof of anybody from /r/CCJ2 "bullying", brigading, or attacking users within the confines of /r/china and having the moderators take our side. where is the undeniable proof that CCJ is stifling discussion? the /r/china mods outright ban and delete users for using "faggot" as an insult here, so i'm not sure where the "e-bullying" is. /r/CCJ2 is completely np.reddit, even with meta posts.

            all i see is a huge, assmad mess of SJWs trying to, in fact, stifle OUR voices because you can't stand that /r/china isn't your PC liberal utopia where the only topics allowed are visa questions, tea scams, and armchair generals clashing with wumao.

            if the CCJ terminology aligning with "valley girl", "redneck", "fob" and "ambiguously gay men" triggers you, maybe the internet isn't the right place for you.

            oh wait, here's you using a variant of THE SAME FUCKING CCJ TERMINOLOGY YOU ARE WHINING ABOUT

            [–]tan_guan[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

            Thanks for the feedback, and thanks for doing the survey.

            I guess for the circlejerky stuff you can downvote and ignore for the time being. The best time to discuss it might be after the survey is over.

            Also, just because some of the mods also post in CCJ doesn't mean they support CCJ memes etc. in this sub. I post in both, for example, but I try to keep what I post appropriate for each sub. We also delete a lot of posts that would be fine on CCJ but that cross the line here.

            Then again we can't be deleting everything that could be considered circlejerky, as there is a lot of crossover. eg. joking about laduzi.

            [–]lasting__damage 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            The rule's in the sidebar though - no memes and circlejerk. I think it's a good rule, but when I brought it up to another mod in reference to a particular thread, his response was the same - 'you can downvote and move on'

            I don't think that'll work, but I'll keep trying. Thanks for writing, and for making the survey

            [–]Aan2007 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (40子コメント)

            weird online clique behaviour

            this, local downvote brigades are really annoying and discouraging from submitting here anything

            when I see good comment I upvote it, when user even thank me for some good comment it has usual zero upvotes, so it means I am as usual affected by downvote brigades or people are just lazy even upvote when someon provide them helpful information

            [–]csxnewbie -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (39子コメント)

            I've noticed a very obvious trend of natural upping and downing and then one particular user chimes in and all of a sudden 5-10 downvotes follow and there is an obvious gang up.

            [–]jingzi_factoryMongolia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

            I put a lot of seemingly banal posts on here that get downvoted like clockwork. These are likely not coming from CCJ.