(cache) Gluckmannが"~I've~ never benefited from injustice!"について記入したコメント

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"~I've~ never benefited from injustice!" (angrywhitebitch.files.wordpress.com)

WineRedPsyLibertarian Socialist, Intersec. Queerfeminist, Transhumanist が 10 時間前投稿

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[–]Gluckmann -18 ポイント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント 10 時間前* (37子コメント)

The problem with people who are dedicated "anti-racists" is that they start to see racism everywhere. There's nothing explicitly racist in this cartoon - no context is given for why the black people in the background are being excluded - so we're just invited to assume that it's because of racism. That says a lot. Not that there isn't a certain amount of institutionalised racism to be found in America, but assuming racism is as bad as ignoring it.

And we all know where this kind of logic leads too: Bobby is "privileged" and has to be discriminated against to make it "fair". No thanks.

EDIT: I get that this isn't a very popular opinion, but this sub is doing neither itself nor anyone else any favours by downvoting opinions it doesn't want to hear. That's not how you build consensus and it's sure as Hell not how you convince people.

固定リンク

[–]Skinnyred1 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 10 時間前 (20子コメント)

[+]Gluckmann スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9 ポイント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント 10 時間前 (19子コメント)

[–]robertbieber 12 ポイント13 ポイント14 ポイント 9 時間前 (16子コメント)

[+]Gluckmann スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10 ポイント-9 ポイント-8 ポイント 9 時間前 (15子コメント)

Disclaimer: I'm not American, so take my analysis with a few pinches of salt.

First off, whether or not I can think of a reason has no bearing on whether or not racism happens to be the reason.

I think it's largely due to historical circumstances, as well as the nature of immigration. There are huge black populations stuck in poverty in city centres and poorer rural areas. Poverty is obviously very difficult to escape, and so blacks will continue to have a larger proportion of poor people than whites. The same goes for immigrant communities, who often come to a country with fewer resources and connections than the "natives". It would be ludicrous to expect them to have the same average income as a non-immigrant.

Let's not forget cultural reasons though: if I'm not mistaken the average wealth of an ethnically East Asian person is even higher than that of a white person. And the former are extremely well-represented in universities, due to pressure among Asian families to succeed academically. Contrast that with something like "ghetto culture" and it's no wonder that some races appear to be "winning".

Honestly, I think "society is racist" is the lazy man's answer.

[–]Skinnyred1 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 9 時間前 (10子コメント)

I think it's largely due to historical circumstances, as well as the nature of immigration. There are huge black populations stuck in poverty in city centres and poorer rural areas. Poverty is obviously very difficult to escape, and so blacks will continue to have a larger proportion of poor people than whites. The same goes for immigrant communities, who often come to a country with fewer resources and connections than the "natives". It would be ludicrous to expect them to have the same average income as a non-immigrant.

I think being excluded from most public services, importantly education, on the grounds of purely their skin colour plays more of a role than merely the "nature of immigration". Yes immigrant communities tend to be poorer for a variety of reasons in the case of black people in america there was very very clear institutional racism that prevented even black people who were several generations 'American' from reaching the same economic level as others.

The fact you used "ghetto culture" really shows me the angle you are coming from and I am now wondering if it is worth trying to argue with you

[+]Gluckmann スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 8 時間前 (9子コメント)

I think being excluded from most public services, importantly education, on the grounds of purely their skin colour

Excuse my ignorance, but does that really happen? I'm pretty sure denying someone access to school or water because of their skin colour is illegal, no? Or do you mean something else?

in america there was very very clear institutional racism that prevented even black people who were several generations 'American' from reaching the same economic level as others.

Absolutely. Jim Crow Laws and all that, right? They're gone now though, and institutional racism against black people is illegal. Blacks can and do successfully aspire to the very highest and most prestigious ranks of American politics and society.

The fact you used "ghetto culture" really shows me the angle you are coming from and I am now wondering if it is worth trying to argue with you

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'd say ghetto culture is definitely an influence on a lot of young people in virtually any country with a poor, urban lower class. In my own country that's undeniably the case: you have whole generations of urban young people who consider education and "proper" employment to be extremely low priorities in life. That holds them back immensely from an economic or social point of view. I wouldn't say that's a particularly contentious claim either.

[–]Skinnyred1 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 8 時間前 (8子コメント)

Absolutely. Jim Crow Laws and all that, right? They're gone now though, and institutional racism against black people is illegal. Blacks can and do successfully aspire to the very highest and most prestigious ranks of American politics and society.

It was hardly a long time ago so of course their effects are still going to be in place. People are still alive today who went through the suffering of the Jim Crow laws. Most black people's parents or grand-parents suffered at the hands of the laws and were excluded from opportunities to better themselves economically. These effects are not going to disappear that quickly. Many black people are growing up in poor households with all the problems that come with that as a direct result of this kind of institutional racism. To believe that just because the laws were abolished all problems means the only thing holding black people back is their own personal responsibility is hideously naive and, I know it will probably wind you up so apologies, very privileged view point

[+]Gluckmann スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント 8 時間前 (7子コメント)

[–]sexylaboratoriesUnified Left 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 4 時間前 (4子コメント)

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]CyridiusSP Ireland | CWI | Marxist-Trotskyist 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 4 時間前 (1子コメント)

このスレッドの続きを見る

[–]robertbieber 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 8 時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]Gluckmann -5 ポイント-4 ポイント-3 ポイント 8 時間前* (2子コメント)

Right, and how do you suppose that came to be?

Well I believe a lot of them migrated to the Northern states at some point in their ancestors' lives looking for work, making them essentially immigrants in places that didn't necessarily have a lot of opportunities, but did require unskilled labour. Unsurprising that they'd end up impoverished in overcrowded neighbourhoods, like a lot of other immigrants throughout history.

Then there was slavery, which I think is what you're getting at. Obviously that's a huge part of it, but it's also completely different from the kind of institutionalised or systematic racism that we're talking about here.

Or, you know, the correct one based on decades of sociological research

The problem with a lot of sociological research on contentious issues like race or gender is that it tends to be carried out by the kind of person I described in my original comment.

I also doubt you'd be able to find too many credible sociologists who ascribe higher levels of poverty among First Nations people directly and solely to racism, which appears to be what you're saying.

but no, I'm sure your "ghetto culture" explanation is probably it

Whoa, where did that come out of? What's with the snark? I thought this was going pretty well up to that.

[–]bleepbloop12345Anarcho-Syndicalist 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 6 時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Gluckmann -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 6 時間前 (0子コメント)

[+]Axehandle83Libertarian Communist スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 9 時間前* (1子コメント)

Expect to get down-voted hell and back but I tend to agree. There is no question that black people are disadvantaged and impoverished and are victims of socio-economic trap that leads directly to a time when they were horribly oppressed but the privilege shaming that has become such a trend on the left is absolutely awful. It does nothing to bring the black and white working class together and unify them against capitalism and it would not surprise me at all if the whole thing were concocted in some FBI cointelpro scheme to ensure the working class remained divided.

Its not so much the content of the message that bothers me but the way so many 'leftists' deploy it. All too often its a chance for some activists to dress down and publicly humiliate some white guy who made the horrible mistake of being born without perfect knowledge so the activists can pat themselves on the back for being morally superior and score themselves some 'rad' points. The whole dialogue is unhelpful and doesn't move the ball down the field against capitalism, which is the true enemy of racial justice.

[+]Gluckmann スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 9 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]ChadwickHenryWardNo war but class war 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 9 時間前 (7子コメント)

[+]Gluckmann スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 9 時間前 (6子コメント)

[–]Triplanetary 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 2 時間前 (4子コメント)

I don't agree that racism occurs anywhere near the scale that you're implying. Nor do I think it's particularly systematic.

Well then you're objectively wrong. Quote from the link:

In not one city over 100,000 in the United States do blacks live in ecological equality to whites when it comes to these basic features of economic and family organization. Accordingly, racial differences in poverty and family disruption are so strong that the "worst" urban contexts in which whites reside are considerably better off than the average context of black communities.

What this study shows is that political equality is meaningless in the absence of literally every other form of equality. You don't have to disenfranchise black people or write laws that specifically target them when the economic fabric of your society is designed to keep black people trapped in poverty. And all this is done so that people like you can point at a law book and say, "Look, there is no systemic racism!"

[–]Gluckmann -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 1 時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]Triplanetary 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 1 時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]Gluckmann -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 1 時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Triplanetary 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 1 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]TroutFishingInCanada 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 4 時間前 (0子コメント)

[–]xveganrox 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 4 時間前 (5子コメント)

There's nothing explicitly racist in this cartoon - no context is given for why the black people in the background are being excluded

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're from a place that's 99% one race, or a place where racism really doesn't exist, that I've apparently never heard of. People probably aren't down voting you because they disagree with you're opinion - they're probably down voting you because in most of the world, racism is prevalent enough that your statement above doesn't make much sense. In the western world - including the USA, which this comic seems likely to be addressing - racism is common and widespread enough that we culturally understand the reason the black families/worker are most likely being rejected. It's established fact, for example, that non-White Americans are much less likely to get job interviews based on their race alone.

[–]Gluckmann -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 4 時間前 (4子コメント)

[–]xveganrox 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 2 時間前 (3子コメント)

[–]Gluckmann 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 時間前 (2子コメント)

[–]xveganrox 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 1 時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Gluckmann 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 時間前 (0子コメント)

I think it's serious, but I don't think it's an all-pervasive, inescapable fact of American society. I think the system is essentially colourblind for the most part, and I don't think racism is something that disadvantages all black people, nor benefits all white people.

I wonder how well someone with an identifiably "hippy" name would have done versus the middle class white names that they used for the study. What about Dmitri or Aoibhinn?

We could go into depth about jails and incomes, but I think the ultimate conclusion will be that black people tend to be worse off economically than white people, and that that brings a number of difficulties with it. And as for cops: the justice system covers its own ass. I don't think that would have gone any differently if Eric Garner had been white.

I don't think we need to look for racism in problems that are primarily economic, or are faults with authority itself.

[–]chucatawa -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 3 時間前 (1子コメント)

[–]Gluckmann -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 2 時間前 (0子コメント)

π Rendered by PID 32131 on app-151 at 2015-02-04 02:38:40.485390+00:00 running a8a8b44 country code: JP.

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