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MSNBC: Rand Paul saying government doesn't own your kids is fringe and just 'right wing rhetoric' (therightscoop.com)

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[–]optionhome 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (28子コメント)

I guess this thinking comes from their belief that parents are too stupid to be parents and the state has to take care of them.

And maybe from their point of view they are correct. It seems like most of the useful idiots are not skilled in raising children. If you teach your kids fairly tales instead of how the world really works, you are just raising an idiot.

Better to let the government teach them the officially approved lies of liberalism.

What they really want is what hitler, stalin, and mao had....mandatory organizations that all kids had to join in order for the regime to turn them into useful idiots.

[–]cranktheguy -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (27子コメント)

I guess this thinking comes from their belief that parents are too stupid to be parents and the state has to take care of them.

Do you think that these crazy California parents who believe in homeopathy but not vaccines are right? Are you seriously siding with Jenny McCarthy?

[–]SarcasticPanda 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (12子コメント)

That's not exactly equivalent. Believing that people have the right to make the decision as to whether or not to vaccinate their kids does not equal believing that all vaccines cause autism or whatever bullshit Jenny McCarthy says.

For example, the Hygiene Hypothesis says that our excessive cleanliness is leading to more allergies. I don't think vaccinations are bad, but the choice on whether or not to vaccinate your kids should be up to the individual parents.

[–]cranktheguy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Believing that people have the right to make the decision as to whether or not to vaccinate their kids does not equal believing that all vaccines cause autism or whatever bullshit Jenny McCarthy says.

The source of your flawed reasoning doesn't matter. Vaccinations are proven, tested, and have been around since your grandparents. These outbreaks simply do not happen until people stop vaccinating. Quarantine is also a loss of freedom, but people understand and accept it because your freedom ends where other's begin. The same goes for vaccinations.

For example, the Hygiene Hypothesis[1] says that our excessive cleanliness is leading to more allergies.

The hygiene hypothesis has nothing at all to do with vaccinations. In fact, since vaccinations expose the immune system to these diseases the hygiene hypothesis would say that you should get vaccinated. But lets take a step back and look at what you just claimed: do you really think that exposing kids to Measles, Polio, and the like is going to make them healthier? That's retarded. The old saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" doesn't fucking apply to Polio.

[–]Erdrick -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

do you really think that exposing kids to Measles, Polio, and the like is going to make them healthier?

What do you think a vaccine is? It's a small dose of the bad thing so your body can generate resistance to it.

[–]doctorhillbilly 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's not what a vaccine is. Vaccines are created by taking components of viral capsids (their shell), surface proteins, parts of killed viruses, sequencing them, mass producing them and using these components to initiate immunity in patients. Vaccines are not exposing people to potentially virulent diseases, they are making copies of parts of viruses so that your body can recognize the actual virus when it sees it.

[–]cranktheguy -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What do you think a vaccine is? It's a small dose of the bad thing so your body can generate resistance to it.

Did you read the sentence before the one you quoted? Because I said exactly what you tried to tell me. There is a big difference between vaccines and normal exposure: the vaccines won't make you sick. They kill or disable the virus/bacteria. I think that tiny detail is important.

[–]TheFerretman -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

You're getting off-topic.

Are you saying--yes or no--that the government owns your kids?

[–]cranktheguy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Requiring vaccines is not the same thing as ownership. And I don't own my child- I am his guardian. And if you actually watch the video, the talking heads mock anyone suggesting you can claim ownership of a child.

[–]TheFerretman -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

So you don't own your kids. Okay, I can accept that.

So as the guardian of your child you believe it is your responsibility to try to do what's best for him or her, yes?

[–]cranktheguy -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

So as the guardian of your child you believe it is your responsibility to try to do what's best for him or her, yes?

That is the responsibility of any guardian. However, I realize that not all people are great guardians of their wards and thus there is and should be a mechanism for the government to step in and correct problems. Examples include stealing money and not giving proper medical care.

[–]TheFerretman -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Okay good, we agree so far....

So then the question -- Do you have the right to decide whether or not your child gets a vaccine?

If you do then it's your choice, you live with the consequences. Those might include the child not going to school (in various unenlightened districts) but by the same token they won't get sick from it either. They could catch up on most vaccines once they become adults if they chose to do so. They are free to make their own destiny.

If you don't then you agree that it's not your choice in the first place--the "correcting the problems" bit you alluded to earlier. That's a pretty slippery slope....the State could decide to do all kinds of things down the road. They aren't free, they're just puppets of the State.

So which do you choose, freedom or the State?

[–]cranktheguy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't go for this absolutist bullshit. I can be for vaccines but against turning my child into a Hitler youth. Vaccines are proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and unvaccinated children- even those in home or private schools- are a very real threat.

[–]matty25Conservative 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Where do you get that? He is advocating for parental freedom.

Mandatory healthcare, mandatory vaccines....making things mandatory is a slippery slope.

[–]cranktheguy 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He is advocating for parental freedom.

If someone were to argue for parental freedom to take their Ebola infected kid in public you'd laugh in their face. The simple fact is that measles outbreaks do not happen when herd immunity is intact. A core conservative belief is that your rights end where you begin to affect the freedoms of others. The facts show that the crazy non-vaccinators were the cause of this break out, so this principle applies. Don't want your kid vaccinated? Well then stay on your hippie commune, Jenny- and out of public.

Mandatory healthcare, mandatory vaccines....making things mandatory is a slippery slope.

Once again, no one argued against mandatory quarantine for Ebola patients. No one argues against the same quarantine for measles patients. But for some reason the proven method of preventing the disease that been the most successful live saving campaign ever and has gone on for about 100 years is suddenly controversial.

Go ask your parents or grandparents about the Polio scares of their childhood and get back to me about parental freedom.

[–]nmotsch789 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I think that if they made vaccines mandatory, it would just piss off the anti-vaxxers and they would resist the movement even more. They would just fake forms saying they vaccinated or claim its against their religion when it really isn't. When you force someone to do something they don't want to do, it makes them hate that thing even more. And for that reason, I think mandatory vaccinations would be more harmful than helpful.

[–]cranktheguy 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I think that if they made vaccines mandatory, it would just piss off the anti-vaxxers and they would resist the movement even more.

It works in Mississippi.

And for that reason, I think mandatory vaccinations would be more harmful than helpful.

There's an outbreak of a deadly yet preventable disease, but we shouldn't do anything because stupid people might resist. Sounds logical to me.

[–]nmotsch789 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My point was that I think if they made vaccines mandatory, even LESS people would get vaccinated on the basis of "religious reasons" to protest.

[–]TheFerretman -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Do you or don't you believe the individual has a say over what goes into his or her own body (or by extension when they're young the parents)?

If you do then you support the anti-vaxxers, whatever you personally think of what they're doing.

If you don't then you give the State the right to ban abortions and support the War on Drugs.

[–]chabanaisSi vis pacem, para bellum. -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

support the War on Drugs.

LOL wut?

[–]TheFerretman -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Simple question......you either believe the State can tell you what to do with your body, or you don't.

Everything flows from that.

[–]chabanaisSi vis pacem, para bellum. -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I don't actually believe it is that simple for often what you do to your body impacts other people.

[–]TheFerretman 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I think folks are stupid not to vaccinate their children--but I defend completely their right to make that choice.

If you chose to eat a country fried steak every night for two weeks you increase you chance of a heart attack. Does that mean that your choice necessarily becomes subject to my discretion since I have to pay your insurance?

[–]chabanaisSi vis pacem, para bellum. -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Not vaccinating your children can create a health pandemic for everybody. Eating a chicken fried steak every night will increase your healthcare costs which is why if you're a fat, unhealthy fucker you should have to pay more for your health insurance.