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/r/Drama has a debate about feminists. (np.reddit.com)

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[–]Gapwick 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (52子コメント)

People who are nutsy think that "telling men not to rape" is a better solution, and that encouraging preventative measures (as I do against all other forms of crime) is "blaming the victim."

How is teaching people not to rape not a preventive measure?

[–]zxcv1992 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (39子コメント)

How is teaching people not to rape not a preventive measure?

Because people who rape usually don't give a fuck about the law ?

[–]PyreDruid 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (35子コメント)

Because as scary as it sounds some people legitimately don't know certain things are rape.

To most people that sounds insane. But it is what it is.

[–]Ornatia🗿 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My brother took a photo of a propaganda poster at a train station here in the UK recently which basically said "don't rape, rape is bad ok"

It's like... yes very informative! The problem is nobody is ever taught about what does or does not constitute rape. That doesn't fit easily onto a propaganda poster, too many words. Too complex to fit in a simple propaganda phase. There is no in depth dialogue about rape outside of niche circles. Male rape forget about it

So you end up with the impression the only form rape takes is the classic male exclusive predator in the dark alley and aren't aware that other stuff can be rape or how rape happens in other scenarios such as people you know and trust in more subtle or less violent and obvious forms. They don't communicate their messages effectively in their adverts and campaigns I think

I didn't get taught about rape in school. I don't remember any sort of talk in sex education or anything at all really. I'm sure the girls would have got a talk at some point? but the boys never from what I remember. Maybe other schools were different or are different now though

If we aren't taught about something how can we know much about it? It's like the government just assumes everyone will have "common sense" or something and feels like they don't even need to educate about these things. Very strange

[–]zxcv1992 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (24子コメント)

I understand the idea of teaching what is and isn't consent and so on but I don't think this idea is really something that will be massively preventive because most rape isn't people who didn't know the person wasn't consenting or some shit. It's people who know it's rape but do it anyway.

[–]Lilusa 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Most rape is acquaintance/date rape and yes it actually does stem from people not understanding consent.

Such as "she was moaning therefore she wanted it" or "an unconscious woman cannot be raped because she didn't say no", etc.

[–]zxcv1992 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (17子コメント)

an unconscious woman cannot be raped because she didn't say no

Anyone who says that is bullshitting, it's common knowledge that is rape.

Also I would have to see statistics but I would think most rape cases would be rape by family members and close friends forcing themselves on someone knowing it's rape. Not date rape and rape at parties and what not.

[–]Lilusa 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Anyone who says that is bullshitting, it's common knowledge that is rape.

It really isn't.

Here is a study which shows that men were more likely to admit rape like behavior (forcing a female to do something sexual she didn't want to) but not admit to rape:

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/vio.2014.0022

Specifically, when survey items describe behaviors (i.e., ‘‘Have you ever coerced somebody to intercourse by holding them down?’’) instead of simply label them (i.e., ‘‘Have you ever raped somebody?’’), more men will admit to sexually coercive behaviors in the past

Also I would have to see statistics but I would think most rape cases would be rape by family members and close friends forcing themselves on someone knowing it's rape. Not date rape and rape at parties and what not.

Yes, in most rapes, the victims knows the rapist.

https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

But as shown above, and in numerous studies, there is a lot of behavior that many people don't consider rape, but that is rape.

ETA: here is ceelo green's statements on his rape case:

“If someone is passed out they’re not even WITH you consciously! so WITH Implies consent”.

“People who have really been raped REMEMBER!!!”

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/02/cee-lo-green-it-isnt-if-the-victim-is-unconscious

[–]zxcv1992 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

It's pretty fucked up that people don't know that stuff that obviously is rape isn't. Hopefully that will change with more emphasis put on teaching proper consent and what not. I still think treating the whole "teach men not to rape" as the main solution to prevent rape is foolish though.

[–]Lilusa 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I still think treating the whole "teach men not to rape" as the main solution to prevent rape is foolish though.

do you have a better idea?

[–]zxcv1992 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

A mixture of many different things such as teaching consent better, better police training for dealing with rape victims, advice of how to keep safe and so on.

[–]lavender-fields 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

But putting more emphasis on teaching proper consent is exactly what "teach men not to rape" means.

[–]zxcv1992 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

is exactly what "teach men not to rape" means.

Yeah but the whole "teach men not to rape" has bad connotations. It implies some pretty shitty things about men in general. So saying that teaching consent better is a far better way of saying it.

[–]Klondeikbar 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Really? Cause we get drama here all the time from people in /r/relationships or other comparable subs with people who legitimately don't understand what rape is.

[–]zxcv1992 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Really? Cause we get drama here all the time from people in /r/relationships[1] or other comparable subs with people who legitimately don't understand what rape is.

Maybe i'm just naive but stuff like don't fuck sleeping people just seems so obvious so the thought of people who don't understand that just seems weird.

[–]Klondeikbar 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sure there's a fair bit of willfull ignorance but like, redpillers don't think "pushing past LMR" is rape. We have to actually explain to them why it's rape before we start throwing them in jail.

[–]PyreDruid 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's a bit ridiculous though in my opinion because it's saying "Teaching people will only stop 15% of rape so let's not even bother" which is absurd. If it stops 0.5% of rape that's a really good thing and we should do it.

Besides are there good stats on that because that always seems to be cited by both sides as favoring theirs. Plus with known underreporting of rape it's possible that a lot of those cases the victim thinks people will assume they consented and just shut up about it. The couple victims I know did exactly that even if people told them otherwise. I'm sure they're not the only ones.

[–]zxcv1992 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's a bit ridiculous though in my opinion because it's saying "Teaching people will only stop 15% of rape so let's not even bother" which is absurd.

By no means I am saying that they shouldn't do it, I think it's a good idea. I just don't think it should be treated as the main method of preventing rape.

[–]PyreDruid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fair enough. I assumed you meant that since I've run into that a lot, and I shouldn't have. Sorry about that.

Definitely though. It's something we should definitely do, but if that's your only idea on how to reduce rape you're absolutely not addressing the whole issue.

[–]mommy2libras 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So why can't we do both?

There are people who think giving any type of preventative advice is victim blaming, which is pretty much impossible if the people you're teaching aren't victims. If I gave a lecture on preventing getting kidnapped by some loon, no one would say shit, even though a lot of the same advice would be given. And if I had known some of the things I learned later in support groups, I may have avoided being a victim altogether. It's just ridiculous and those people are clearly hurting the cause much more than helping it. As people, we already know we can't control what anyone else does but learning ways to keep ourselves as safe as possible around other people is nothing but good.

[–]PyreDruid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it's because that "stranger grabbing you" is so uncommon that people see it as even less helpful than "teaching people not to rape" and that unfortunately a lot of the people who seek to "teach you how to prevent it" don't teach solid self defense skills but more "you shouldn't wear that downtown, you're asking for it" which isn't helpful at all and just demeaning.

Solid self defense is a good idea, informing people if there's a potential rapist out there, or where the "bad" parts of town are is good as well. But I think so many people victim blame in the guise of "I'm just teaching prevention" that its gotten a negative connotation.

[–]HeyZuesHChrist -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Because as scary as it sounds some people legitimately think some things are rape that aren't rape. There's also that.

[–]PyreDruid 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (7子コメント)

And you won't find me defending that either.

But it's a (much) smaller problem. And most people aren't actively hurting people because of their misguided opinion so I'm more inclined to leave it alone.

[–]HeyZuesHChrist -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

so I'm more inclined to leave it alone.

It's still a problem, and one we should be looking at instead of ignoring it.

[–]PyreDruid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

When someone uses it to hurt someone it should be addressed.

But that's not epidemic such as there's a need to focus campaigns on it.

Is all I'm saying.

[–]HeyZuesHChrist -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It has to do with consent laws, so yes, it should be addressed no matter what.

[–]surfnsound -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's a problem in the fact that it leads groups with agendas to make up statistics by asking questions that aren't "were you raped?" and then deciding if the responder is raped for them.

[–]PyreDruid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So if I'm defrauded and don't realize it, and the other person has my money and I have nothing but I thought it was legit I wasn't scammed?

Hmm. Okay.

[–]surfnsound -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

More like:

"Have you ever had sex while intoxicated?"

"Yes."

Raped.

[–]PyreDruid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, if they were drunk past the point of consent from the alcohol then uh, well, that's rape.

Edit: in fact that exactly the point I made earlier. They're not saying they weren't raped because they weren't. They're saying it because they don't understand that's bad too.

That example is a perfect example of why we need to educate people on what rape is.

[–]Zaeron 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Except that a shockingly large number of rapes are committed by people who don't believe they've raped anyone. Like, it's pretty mind boggling to me.

It would be like if more than 30% of people who punched someone in the face didn't know that punching people in the face was battery. Like, that's how bonkers this shit is.

Rape education is necessary because somehow, some people still haven't figured out that if you find a chick passed out face down in a pool of her own vomit, you shouldn't PUT YOUR DICK UP HER ASS.

[–]beanfiddlernow accepting tithes of foreskins and well-done kosher steak 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Considering the drama we see here on a daily basis where loads of people have no idea what rape is, it's more like people don't give a fuck about the law because they have a really mistaken idea about what it says. So they give a fuck, just about "laws" that don't exist because actual laws don't say what they think they say.

[–]Karmaisforsuckers 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd wager the majority of rapists give a fuck about the law.

[–]matinus 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Because it's targeted at men, and we do no wrong.

[–]Gapwick 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Ooooook, head mod is AnnArchist, former mod of /r/mensrights and /r/beatingwomen (what a double whammy!). It suddenly makes sense.

[–]RoboticParadox 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Wasn't /r/drama started in the first place be people who believed SRD to be infested with the Skeleton Menace?

[–]zxcv1992 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

/r/Drama is older than here so I doubt it

[–]RoboticParadox 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yeah I messed up, that was SRDD I was thinking of

[–]DocileBanalBovinePop POP 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you mean /r/thepopcornstand

SRDD is solely about drama in SRD

[–]chewy_pewp_barOoh, hey, what? It's like wow! 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's mostly people who have been ding dong bannued from SRD. Not entirely, of course, but many.

[–]Mr_Rottweiler 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some of the comments I read in this sub, make a lot of sense to me, too.

[–]Roidelangue 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It is a preventative measure but it is a very ineffective one.

People know rape is against the law, people know rape is horrible. The same way people know murder is against the law and horrible but can you think of anything more stupid than telling a criminal who is willing to commit these crimes just not to do it, or that explaining how the crime is wrong to them will suddenly give them clarity of their wrong doing/intentions?

In major conflicts where mass rape happens they didn't do it because they thought it was ok to do, they did it for revenge or to use as a weapon. The Russians mass rape in Germany, the horrible systematic rape in the Yugoslav wars, the mass rapes that are still happening in conflicts in central Africa.

They came about because they knew the effect rape can have in demoralising people and destroying lives not because of ignorance.

It's like what motherfucking plane snakes said in that captain America film "SHIELD takes the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be."

It would be amazing to live in a world were all we had to do was educate people to not commit crime but we don't and some people are very cruel.

[–]WatchEachOtherSleepRise up! Overthrow your mod oppressors! (╯°□°）╯︵ 卍卍卍卍 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

People know rape is against the law, people know rape is horrible. The same way people know murder is against the law and horrible but can you think of anything more stupid than telling a criminal who is willing to commit these crimes just not to do it, or that explaining how the crime is wrong to them will suddenly give them clarity of their wrong doing/intentions?

Whatever your view on whether such a campaign is effective (I personally think any good campaign of this type should try to be as gender neutral as possible), you do seem to be misconstruing what "tell/teach someone not to rape" is intended to mean. It's not just saying "Hey, so yeah, rape, don't do that". It's about using resources like sex education to teach people about what constitutes rape, about coercion, about the importance of being attentive to a prospective partner's feelings through their words & behaviour. It's about teaching people responsibility, compassion & empathy so that they value their partner's enjoyment as much as their own & are receptive to when someone's not so down for sex, or too drunk to be able to make a clear decision or too high or whatever. It's about trying to get everyone to respect & value the other person's bodily autonomy.

It's not meant to be targetted at someone who breaks into another's house & forcibly rapes them at gun point or slips a date rape drug into someone's drink. After all, these sorts of rape are a lot less common than other types.

It's intended for the girl who really wants to fuck a guy at a party, but he's slurring his words & she's not so sure he's really lucid enough to know what's going on, even though he's kissing her back. She should be able to, & she should be encouraged to by her sex education, say to herself "You know, maybe I'll get his number & we can see how it goes when he's sober.

Or the guy who thinks his girlfriend owes him sex in a relationship &, though she's said no about a dozen times, he keeps pestering until she gives in.

It's really about putting consent, informed & enthusiastic consent, at the centre of everyone's understanding of sex.

TL;DR: Actually, it's about ethics in consent journalism.

[–]PyreDruid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

When people say that they're not talking about teaching people not to drug people or knock them out in an alleyway and drag them into the bushes.

They're talking about how it's not okay to have sex with the girl at the party who's passed out drunk on the floor in their own vomit even if they were talking about sex with you 90 minutes ago. There are people who know rape is wrong that dont know that you probably shouldn't do that.

That's what they're talking about. The "people know rape is wrong" is just a red herring.

[–]HeyZuesHChrist -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because it's not a useful preventive measure. The idea that all you need to do is teach men not to rape implies that they rape by default and it's just a lack of teaching.

When do you ever hear people say, "we need to teach people to not murder other people?" You've probably never heard that as a preventive measure against being murdered because we know it's a ridiculous premise to begin with. We take precautions like avoiding places we think are dangerous where we might be murdered or by having protection.

If I left my car doors unlocked and somebody stole my car or the stuff in my car you'd tell me, "hey, lock your fucking doors you dummy." You wouldn't start trying to teach everybody to not steal from people. While it's not my fault somebody stole from me, I could have prevented it or made it too difficult for it to happen. It's why we lock our homes and install security systems, too. Rape is the only crime that gets special rules.