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wikipedia

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The Most Interesting Pages on Wikipedia
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submitted by wikipedia_cool
I've been an administrator on Wikipedia for a good few years now. I spend a lot of time on niche subreddits just to broaden my views.
One of them is /r/blackladies. Really cool subreddit. Yesterday someone posted a link to an article, where author clearly shows they don't like demographics of Wikipedia editors. What hit me were redditors' comment about their own negative interaction with Wikipedia.
I tried to explain them as best as I could, but my comments were unfortunately removed. You can still read them when you click on my account.
I will really appreciate if you comment on my behaviour. Was I racist? Wasn't I sensible enough?
all 86 comments
[–]TheIndigoSky 25 points26 points27 points  (60 children)
You should delete this post. As they note on the sidebar, /r/blackladies is
designed specifically to be a safe space for black ladies on Reddit
/r/blackladies often deletes comments from outsiders who come in and defend (rightly or wrongly) things that the users are complaining about. I know that probably goes against your personal feelings on free speech, but please consider the idea that making it a "safe space" for black women sometimes requires the aggressive exclusion of outsiders. Reddit is an overwhelmingly white and male crowd, and so keeping that sub from becoming "black women defend their opinions from questioning white male visitors 24/7" is a difficult thing to accomplish. Think of it like a private conversation that you're eavesdropping on. Even if you're correct in what you're saying, jumping into the conversation and correcting something someone said would be considered rude.
It's not that what you said is racist etc, it's that the subreddit is designed for black women to have conversations with each other, and maintaining that requires excluding outsiders. When I visit the subreddit (I sub it to keep my mind open and expose myself to views I wouldn't normally see), I don't even vote on any of the submissions or comments because I don't feel that it's appropriate (I am a white male). If I wanted to comment, I would be very hesitant to, and if I ever did I would try to be extremely respectful, above and beyond normal etiquette, because I am a visitor in someone else's home.
You're basically encouraging brigading by posting the link to the subreddit. I would really ask you to remove this post. They're a small community of ~6k black women, and you're getting an overwhelmingly white and male subreddit with 148k people involved.
[–]Halaku 6 points7 points8 points  (15 children)
I concur with /u/trannypunk. There's a difference between "Safe space" and "Open for anyone to read, but you have to meet our gender and racial criteria to post", especially when that rule is unwritten.
/u/wikipedia_cool did nothing wrong in posting there, and he did nothing wrong in asking "What did I do wrong?" in this thread.
Then again, I'm not a black lady, so I'm sure I need to go check my privilege, or some shit.
[–]TheIndigoSky 3 points4 points5 points  (14 children)
This post would be a LOT more ok if he didn't link to the thread or subreddit. As someone who has followed the conversations on that subreddit for months, it take very aggressive moderation and exclusion of outsiders to maintain a safe space. They are CONSTANTLY invaded by the more racist elements of reddit, and posts like these are one of the major causes of raids.
[–]Halaku 6 points7 points8 points  (2 children)
He was asking if he did something wrong. That would be extremely hard to determine without context.
"Hey. I went to a subreddit. They were expressing negative, inaccurate commentary about my field of expertise. I offered some feedback. It was deleted. Was I racist?"
OP isn't making any sort of commentary on that subreddit, or how their mods choose to do their job. OP is asking about OP's behavior, and that is laudable.
The mods of that subreddit have two choices: Be part of the wider Reddit community (in which case, they're going to have to moderate comments from non-subreddit members) or take the sub private (which would give them a safer space), but trying to have your cake and eat it as well isn't a recipe for an easy moderator position.
It's a shame that the assholes of Reddit give them a hard time. But OP doesn't appear to be one of them, and there's nothing wrong with him trying to find out why someone slammed a door in his face.
[–]trannypunk -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
Be part of the wider Reddit community (in which case, they're going to have to moderate comments from non-subreddit members) or take the sub private (which would give them a safer space), but trying to have your cake and eat it as well isn't a recipe for an easy moderator position.
This x 1000.
[–]TheIndigoSky -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
he mods of that subreddit have two choices: Be part of the wider Reddit community (in which case, they're going to have to moderate comments from non-subreddit members) or take the sub private (which would give them a safer space), but trying to have your cake and eat it as well isn't a recipe for an easy moderator position.
They're well aware of the downsides of their approach, and the moderators pay the cost willingly every day.
With that in mind, I'm offering advice to OP under the assumption that he sympathizes with the mods desires to have a safe space. There are always going to be problems with making a safe space that is not private, but that's /r/blackladies decision to make and I'm merely offering advice on how you can help them in that goal as an outsider (under the assumption that most reasonable outsiders can sympathize with them).
[–]trannypunk -2 points-1 points0 points  (10 children)
So because of fear of raids from other sources, no one can ever have an honest question?
Interesting.
[–]TheIndigoSky -2 points-1 points0 points  (9 children)
This was a question for the moderators of /r/blackladies, not for the front page of another major subreddit. If he did wanted to know why his posts were deleted and they didn't get back, I answered and the threat is unnecessary.
I'll continue having conversations with people who have zero familiarity with that subreddit and its issues in this thread, but if you don't think having this on the front page of /r/wikipedia with a direct link to the subreddit, you just don't understand how small minority community subs work.
[–]trannypunk -2 points-1 points0 points  (8 children)
he should have asked the mods instead of r/wikipedia
That is your personal opinion. You are still literally trying to silence OP. How dare OP ask a question to anyone other than the appropriate mods of a small sub that already banned him. How dare he.
you just don't understand how small minority community subs work.
Nice answer. "You just don't get it".
[–]TheIndigoSky 3 points4 points5 points  (7 children)
It is my personal opinion, are you trying to silence me? /s
OP didn't know the potential downsides of making this post. He's probably a well-intentioned individual who really doesn't want to be racist or hurt that community. I'm merely informing him that the way he went about seeking that information is doing something that that subreddit REALLY doesn't like, which is inviting in large numbers of outsiders. I don't see what's so difficult to understand.
[–]trannypunk -4 points-3 points-2 points  (6 children)
are you trying to silence me
Nope, just telling you that you are stating opinion as fact. You are the only one hot to censor people here.
I don't see what's so difficult to understand.
You are telling OP to delete his post and not have questions.
You are telling OP that the solidarity of a subreddit is more important than truth about the nature of wikipedia.
If solidarity has to come at the cost of truth then fuck solidarity.
[–]TheIndigoSky 0 points1 point2 points  (5 children)
Where did I say to not have questions?
I'm not censoring him, I'm pointing out an unintended externality and suggesting that the morally right thing to do would be to delete this post. I'm asking him to self-censor under the assumption that he shares some of my values. I think OP is a smart, caring person who didn't realize what they were doing when they a) posted in that subreddit, and b) linked to it in this subreddit.
[–]trannypunk -3 points-2 points-1 points  (4 children)
I'm not censoring him,
delete this thread
No seriously, you are attempting to censor him.
Define: censor: examine (a book, movie, etc.) officially and suppress unacceptable parts of it.
Telling dude to delete his threads, and using your "insider knowledge" as the base of authority is most decidedly attempts at censorship.
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] 2 points3 points4 points  (5 children)
I'm not going to remove anything. If one wants to keep their conversations private, they can make their sub private.
By the way, 'excluding outsiders' basically means here 'excluding whites'. This is racist.
[–]TheIndigoSky 1 point2 points3 points  (4 children)
I think they specifically noted that you're using a throwaway. But yes, sometimes they exclude white users.
Why not at least use an np link?
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] 3 points4 points5 points  (3 children)
I'm using throwaway account because my main one can be easily linked with my Wikipedia account and my name, occupation etc. And I know that at least one of the mods of /r/blackladies is responsible for doxxing of other redditors.
Why would I use an np link?
[–]TheIndigoSky 2 points3 points4 points  (2 children)
It prevents visitors from commenting/voting, and is generally a common courtesy to prevent vote brigading when you link to a much smaller sub in a post on a much larger sub.
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] comment score below threshold-9 points-8 points-7 points  (1 child)
Actually, I think this thread on /r/blackladies would benefit from new comments.
[–]Amonette2012 -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
Careful, brigading is generally against the rules.
[–]trannypunk 4 points5 points6 points  (34 children)
They should make the subreddit private.
Edit:
You're basically encouraging brigading by posting the link to the subreddit. I would really ask you to remove this post.
No, OP is not encouraging brigading. Please don't make this a strawman argument so you can shame-silence OP.
OP seems to be actually curious about how he/she may have messed up.
You had a really good argument going, and you blew it with the hyperbolic bolded statement about brigading.
[–]TheIndigoSky 3 points4 points5 points  (33 children)
I am not shame silencing OP. I'm happy to have a conversation with him here. However, posting a non-"No Participation" link to a tiny subreddit on the front page of a major subreddit is dangerous.
[–]trannypunk comment score below threshold-6 points-5 points-4 points  (32 children)
posting np links
this is not what you said above, you said that OP was brigading and should delete the thread. You are moving the goal posts. Stop.
[–]TheIndigoSky 1 point2 points3 points  (31 children)
I think my explanation answered his question well enough for him to delete the thread, since I'm apparently the only one in this thread who is familiar with /r/blackladies. Both deleting the thread and deleting the link would help. Even if the link's not there, mentioning the subreddit name on a post that has made it to the front page of the subreddit is risking causing problems for /r/blackladies. If OP thought his question was answered, I see no reason for him to keep the thread up.
[–]trannypunk -1 points0 points1 point  (30 children)
risking causing problems
With all due respect (seriously), I don't understand what problems you are predicting.
So far this seems like one dude who thought he was being good and was told he was wrong, and he is looking for clues or an explanation. This is harmless.
If you are worried about literally some other group of goons following reddit links and being goons on their own, then I don't know what to tell you. Reddit is a social sharing site, and people post links to things. That is the point of the website.
[–]TheIndigoSky 0 points1 point2 points  (29 children)
If you are worried about literally some other group of goons following reddit links and being goons on their own, then I don't know what to tell you.
This is exactly what I'm worried about. Yes, some degree of this is inevitable. But to the extent that people are sensitive to the issues of minority communities on reddit, we can take steps to avoid causing them problems. Steps like not inviting outsiders to inspect their threads, or at least using non-participation mode.
A thoughtful person is capable of weighing their needs (to talk to outsiders about the sub) against /r/blackladies need (to have a safe space for black women).
[–]kaztrator 0 points1 point2 points  (11 children)
I don't know if this even counts as a 1st world problem. It's so ridiculous this is even a concern. Zero World Problem.
[–]TheIndigoSky -1 points0 points1 point  (10 children)
I don't mean this dismissively, but are you a member of any discriminated against minority groups?
I'm not black or female, I'm another kind of minority that I prefer not to mention directly on reddit, but if you're not you might be underestimating the importance of having a separate safe space to talk with other people like you when you don't identify with the dominant race/culture etc.
Growing up before the Internet was a lot tougher because I felt extremely isolated because of my status and had no one to talk to, and today Internet communities like these can make a big difference for some people. The way reddit is set up, it's very easy for a dedicated group of haters to ruin a safe space for these communities, at least temporarily.
[–]kaztrator 3 points4 points5 points  (9 children)
I'm Puerto Rican, but this is besides the point. This guy made a comment that could have easily come from a black lady. He mentioned that he isn't a black lady, so you're too hung up on treating him differently. All he said was "I'm an admin on Wikipedia and Wikipedia works in this way". He didn't say anything to offend black ladies, and he definitely didn't attack their opinions.
The sidebar for that sub says that anybody is welcome. You're the only one who wants to to racially segregate reddit here.
[–]trannypunk 0 points1 point2 points  (16 children)
A thoughtful person is capable of weighing their needs (to talk to outsiders about the sub) against /r/blackladies[1] need (to have a safe space for black women).
So OP is too stupid to weigh their "needs" against those of a non-private subreddit.
I don't know if you can make your point without attacking or shaming or trying to silence OP.
You haven't even actually discussed his questions and concerns. Just told him to STFU.
Poor form.
[–]TheIndigoSky -1 points0 points1 point  (15 children)
Look, if you want to understand where I'm coming from, spend a month reading the threads on that subreddit without participating.
I think it's very silly to say I didn't discuss his questions considering my first post. But to be more direct...
Was I racist? Wasn't I sensible enough?
You weren't racist, you were sensible from your perspective and you didn't do anything wrong that you should've known about beforehand. This subreddit just feels a need to exclude outsiders because it is difficult to actually maintain an open minority community on reddit without that kind of heavy handed moderation.
I don't know what other kind of discussion you're looking for.
[–]Halaku 2 points3 points4 points  (7 children)
If you had said that, and then said the rest, in your original reply to OP, I think the rest of the thread may have been avoided.
[–]trannypunk 0 points1 point2 points  (6 children)
I am looking for discussion that does not start with an all bolded directive telling someone to delete threads.
You are being a bully and you are not even a mod here.
Knock it the fuck off.
[–]actualgirl 2 points3 points4 points  (1 child)
For the record, you've linked to that subreddit far more than OP. Maybe you should delete your posts for fear of brigading.
[–]TheIndigoSky -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
OP controls whether or not this thread is seen by the general userbase of /r/wikipedia. If he keeps his post up, people are going to be able to go to the exact thread via his links, and the cat's out of the bag. If he deletes his post or moderators remove it from the front page, the general userbase of wikipedia can see neither his links nor my links. If I remove my links and everything else stays the same, well, that doesn't really do much does it.
If he edited his post to make it impossible to identify which subreddit he was talking about, I'd be happy to remove my links because then it would actually make a difference.
[–]Slicker1138 -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
The white shame is strong with you.
[–]Halaku 7 points8 points9 points  (1 child)
You did nothing wrong. It's simply the way the mods of that sub have chosen to moderate. Your attempt was well-intentioned, and I appreciate you trying.
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Thank you for your kind words.
[–]Meta_Bot2 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
Someone submitted a link to this submission in the following subreddit:
This comment was posted by a bot, see /r/Meta_Bot for more info. Please respect rediquette, and do not vote or comment on the linked submissions. Thank you.
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Where the hell did I write that my comments were removed because of my race and sex?
[–]AmericasBlackProblem 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
Never go to /r/blackladies. It's just not worth it to deal with the hassle. OP, you didn't do anything wrong.
[–]AvantGarbage -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
You're wasting your time. That subreddit is garbage.
[–]DragonSlave49 -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
I think you should live abroad if you want to broaden your views. As I myself am an expat living in China, I can think of little else that would so broaden your views as living in a country like this one. After living here for a few years, I really find most of the viewpoints of people in America regarding liberty/freedom, environment, health, consumer protections, etc. be downright quaint.
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I live abroad.
[–]VapeApe -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
Thanks for volunteering information nobody asked for. Way to contribute.
[–]IrbyTremor -2 points-1 points0 points  (3 children)
Here's a suggestion: next time you want to come into our sub representing a website on a throwaway and swinging your fists around, message the mods first. Problem solved. Instead you rolled in trying to start an imbroglio with two different users in defense of a website. You were also pretty damned aggressive about it in that "DONT LIKE IT, MAKE THE PERFECT ARTICLE OR SHUT UP" kind of way. You were extremely paternalistic and confrontational.
You weren't even banned. And now this. What you were doing has now been coined 'Sea Lioning'.
Blackladies is our space. Not a debate space, not anything of that nature. Our space. If you cannot respect it, you don't need to swing by. We're good.
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] 1 point2 points3 points  (2 children)
I don't represent Wikipedia in any way.
You were also pretty damned aggressive about it in that "DONT LIKE IT, MAKE THE PERFECT ARTICLE OR SHUT UP" kind of way.
I think you're reading my comments with a bad attitude.
[–]IrbyTremor 0 points1 point2 points  (1 child)
I think you're reading my comments with a bad attitude.
Yes, of course, you didnt do anything wrong. /s
You came in sealioning. Thats not okay. That does not respect the space. You also did it on a throwaway which our bots automatically remove in the first place.
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (0 children)
I didn't came in 'sealioning' or whatever you say. I saw two people who were probably mistaken by how Wikipedia works. I understand that it might be difficult for people who start editing, so just wanted to help them.
And I have explained earlier in this thread why I used throwaway.
[–]blaity -2 points-1 points0 points  (0 children)
You did nothing wrong at all apart from being born a white male
[–]trannypunk comment score below threshold-12 points-11 points-10 points  (10 children)
A white male who thinks he knows what is best for /r/blackladies
Let that sink in for a while.
[–]TheIndigoSky 3 points4 points5 points  (6 children)
Dat concern trolling.
[–]trannypunk -1 points0 points1 point  (2 children)
concern trolling
This is another silencing tactic. Anything you say is 100% legit, but anything that detracts from it just must be a troll.
It is intellectually dishonest.
[–]horsedickery 1 point2 points3 points  (1 child)
I don't think you understand the difference between someone censoring you and someone disagreeing with you.
[–]trannypunk -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
I don't feel censored.
I am talking about the earlier post in which OP was told to delete his posts.
Excellent straw man attempt tho.
[–]trannypunk -4 points-3 points-2 points  (2 children)
No, I am actually calling you a racist person.
You have a really strong sense of paternalism, as if you need to take care of minority communities.
I say this as a member of a minority community.
[–]TheIndigoSky -1 points0 points1 point  (1 child)
I too am a member of a minority community, I'm just lucky that it's not something you can tell by looking at my outward appearance. I especially sympathize with /r/blackladies because I've found it difficult to find safe spaces in my own experiences. Intersectionality yo.
[–]trannypunk -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
creeping on a subreddit you are not a member of
literally white knighting
safe
Do you see the problem yet?
[–]wikipedia_cool[S] 0 points1 point2 points  (2 children)
How do you know I am male?
[–]TheIndigoSky -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
They're referring to me.
[–]trannypunk -1 points0 points1 point  (0 children)
I don't.
For that matter, you might actually be a black lady.
No one else seems to care about this fact either.
I apologize for any problems this caused. I believe I am defending your right to ask questions, but I am sometimes in the wrong.
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