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Why the hate Cascadia? (self.Cascadia)
No_LotR_No_Life が 1 年 前 * 投稿
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[–]ComradeKoolaid 58 ポイント59 ポイント60 ポイント 1 年 前 (137子コメント)
Well see that's the problem; at least in my admittedly biased view point it is a bargain basement political philosophy.
It's all well and good to talk about utopia and the free market working hand in hand with a free society but at the end of the day it just seems to me like so much masturbation of any political ideology without any of the merit of challenging some of the established conventions or asking any real meaningful questions of it's own.
There is nothing wrong with the view point, but it all seems so lazy and slapdash.
[–]Vroome 69 ポイント70 ポイント71 ポイント 1 年 前 (113子コメント)
There is nothing wrong with the view point
There is at least one thing fundamentally wrong with libertarianism; namely, that property rights are considered the only right one needs and that civil rights don't exist. As a Cascadian of the female persuasion I don't like the idea of having my access to healthcare determined by the whim of the doctor I go to.
In a libertarian society, doctors could do what they did before we had civil rights for women and refuse to treat them because they think women who are raped are sinful. That is A-OK in libertarian philosophy and I, for one, find it disgustingly naive.
[–]RPrevolution 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 年 前 (6子コメント)
and that civil rights don't exist
Could you be more specific / provide an example?
[–]Vroome 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 1 年 前 (5子コメント)
All natural rights theory, esp Lockean Property Rights theory believe solely in property rights. Even political liberty, the right to vote, is based on property rights as renters are considered not invested in society.
So if you rent and are a libertarian, you are campaigning against your own political liberty.
[–]LDL2 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
You are blatantly incorrect about lockean property rights. Most libertarians don't even accept the lockean proviseo which they are based on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockean_proviso
http://www.stephankinsella.com/2009/08/down-with-the-lockean-proviso/
No, it is based on the Lockean idea that the right to land is an equal right.
By that I mean: the idea that an individual has "property" in land only to the extent that there is, in the words of John Locke, "enough, and as good left in common for others." In that sense, the right to land is not a collective right, but an individual right that exists independently of the collective (i.e. "society"). The equality of this right is merely a limitation that arises from the presence of others with like rights.
By contrast, a collective right to land dictates that an individual does not have a right to use any land unless society -- either explicitly or by omission -- has granted him the right to do so.
With the equal right to land, one does not require the consent of society to use land. The right to the use of land belongs at birth to each individual. So while the consent of others is not needed, it is, nevertheless, necessary that in the exercise of that right, one does not infringe upon the equal right of others -- i.e., violate Locke's proviso that there be "enough, and as good left in common for others." And since the rental value of land provides an accurate measure of the extent to which said proviso has been violated, "others" should be compensated in accordance with that value. At the same time, of course, all taxes on labor and capital should be abolished, since they violate the exclusive right that each individual has to the fruits of his own labor.
[–]Vroome 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 年 前 (3子コメント)
I've read Nozick, I know of the Lockean Proviso and even his miniarchism was not coherent, he admitted so himself, I reject your point. Only the most extreme reading of Lockean property rights with zero common goods, resources, or services is coherent as anything else is a wish list because libertarians can't say one thing is a common good like public roads while denying public healthcare.
There are dozens of sets of natural rights theories by the way, all claiming to be inalienable. Which set -- God -- do you believe in?
[–]LDL2 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
Only the most extreme reading of Lockean property rights with zero common goods, resources, or services is coherent as anything else is a wish list because libertarians can't say one thing is a common good like public roads while denying public healthcare.
Uh services are very much different. A moron can figure out why so I won't rehash that. Most goods are easily determined as well though there is a grey area you aren't likely to reach. The best answer I can give you is to read some economics-(early economics) and to mention you are close on the resources front.
I don't believe in natural rights outside of a thought experiment that can prove quite useful to understand how societies are best functioning.
[–]Vroome -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
Uh services are very much different
Well, I disagree and in a libertarian society I apparently would be stopped by libertarian thugs from enacting legislation for the commons according to your incoherent ideology. Want a public library? Get shot by a libertarian mob for trying to raise taxes for it. That sounds like a libertarian dictatorship.
Then why base a society on a thought experiment?
[–]LDL2 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Well you pulled that out of nowhere. Not at all.
Who said I was? Lets rehash this conversation. You said something incorrect about the application of a theory as well as who believes in it. I corrected you. Now I'm killing poeple and designing a society. You presume so much.
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-26 ポイント-25 ポイント-24 ポイント 1 年 前 (12子コメント)
This is not even a libertarian belief and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop spouting this gibberish. Property rights are an extension of individual rights and I haven't got a clue where you got the notion that in a libertarian society there are no civil rights.
In a libertarian society you'd have just as many rights (and more) then you do now, but yes so would that doctor, that's the point, that nobody should be forced to do something they don't want. That doesn't make his viewpoint acceptable and more than likely that doctor would go out of business because people wouldn't spend their money at a doctor who refused treatment to women.
And I don't know why you think this is such a likely concern anyways, the only libertarian doctor I know much about offered free medical service to hundreds of people over the course of decades regardless of their skin color, gender, nationality, etc.
I don't know why people come up with these bizarre hypotheticals because they are afraid of freedom.
[–]Vroome 25 ポイント26 ポイント27 ポイント 1 年 前 (5子コメント)
Who?
Nozick does not believe in civil rights theory, neither does Rothbard.
Which libertarian philosophy are you talking about or are you not even educated on the matter?
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント-15 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
Well first I think it is important to define what you mean by "civil rights theory" since that isn't an actual term used to discuss individual rights.
[–]garypooper 16 ポイント17 ポイント18 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_and_political_rights
What are you talking about?
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-14 ポイント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
Hm, find me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_rights_theory
I'm not denying their aren't principles surrounding civil rights as a topic, my point was is she needed to clearly define what she meant so as for me to actually be able to respond knowing precisely what she meant.
Understanding is important in any conversation, but since you're literally just running around attempting to insult me I'm just going to have to put an end to our discourse.
If you actually want to carry out a reasonable debate on political policy feel free to message me.
[–]garypooper 16 ポイント17 ポイント18 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
It is the theory of civil rights. There are dozens of philosophers who have contributed to civil rights theory but they all share commonalities in their viewpoints.
You are arguing bizarre appeals to diction and thinking you are clever but you just lack reading comp skills.
[–]Vroome 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Wat‽
[–]garypooper 12 ポイント13 ポイント14 ポイント 1 年 前 (5子コメント)
Sounds like someone does not know what libertarianism actually means and likes calling himself a libertarian.
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-18 ポイント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
The ignorance of this statement baffles me. Libertarianism isn't like being liberal and conservative, there aren't many hard line policies or beliefs one must maintain to be a considered a libertarian, as there are many differing thoughts within libertarianism.
[–]garypooper 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 1 年 前 (3子コメント)
Um, so what kind of libertarian are you?
[–]Electric_head -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 1 年 前* (0子コメント)
This is funny because you could take any popular ideology and apply most of those panels to it by replacing a few words.
It's easy to just link to brainless, empty articles online that attack caricatures like bowling pins as opposed to the ideology itself if one is intellectually dishonest. Try a bit harder. Who knows? Maybe you'll get a few converts over to the your pseudo-religion of social science?
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント-11 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
When you can't refute someones policy, you resort to attacking their character. Bravo.
[–]garypooper 12 ポイント13 ポイント14 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
I don't need to refute anything. You don't even know what libertarianism stands for yet are sitting here telling me you are a libertarian. It is laughably naive and is the sort of shit I have to deal with from my 15 year old who is going through his anarchist phase right now.
[+]ghostofmybrain スコアが基準値未満のコメント-34 ポイント-33 ポイント-32 ポイント 1 年 前 (79子コメント)
Is that really a realistic concern? We're talking about an independence movement in a very liberal part of the country, not in the backwoods of Mississippi or something. Maybe you'll find a doctor or two like that, but chances are you'd discover they aren't the doctor for you well before even getting in that situation.
[–][deleted] 23 ポイント24 ポイント25 ポイント 1 年 前 (20子コメント)
PNW is not just Seattle, Vancouver and Portland. East of the Cascades, and you are in republican/conservative country.
[+]ghostofmybrain スコアが基準値未満のコメント-14 ポイント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント 1 年 前* (19子コメント)
But if an independence movement actually succeeded, it would be because a large majority of the region believed in more liberal ideologies than your typical tea party member. Remember, we're not taking about what the region is like now, but rather what it might look like should this movement succeed.
[–][deleted] 16 ポイント17 ポイント18 ポイント 1 年 前 (18子コメント)
But if given the libertarian standpoint, a lot of those doctors in the east could refuse treatment.
So yes, it could very well be a problem.
[+]ghostofmybrain スコアが基準値未満のコメント-20 ポイント-19 ポイント-18 ポイント 1 年 前 (17子コメント)
Yes they certainly could, but I find it highly unlikely. I think they would quickly become very unpopular and lose all their business to the 99% of doctors who don't do that sort of thing.
[–]DaveYarnell 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 1 年 前 (8子コメント)
As a Muslim, I can see it happening very quickly that the entire society would ostracize us and we would be unable to find any employment due to racism and ignorance.
Property owners need not rent to us, lawyers need not represent us, and soon we find ourselves locked into ghettos due to the lack of civil rights and a potentially pervasive racist philosophy.
[–]ghostofmybrain -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 1 年 前 (7子コメント)
That's a very unfortunately outlook to have on your fellow man. I have never met a single person in Cascadia that cared more about a person's religion than about money, and was in a position to ostracize. Usually people that ignorant are also failures in other aspects of their life.
[–]DaveYarnell 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 1 年 前 (6子コメント)
In a small community it is a definite possibility, although unlikely to pervade the region as a whole.
[–]thebuhlscrapes 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 1 年 前 (7子コメント)
You're delusional if you think that would happen.
Answer me this, are you a straight white male?
[+]ghostofmybrain スコアが基準値未満のコメント-12 ポイント-11 ポイント-10 ポイント 1 年 前* (3子コメント)
Nope. Good guess though?
I'm being realistic, not delusional. Even if there were doctors who wouldn't treat women, there will plenty of doctors who will. Even on something as controversial as abortion (something that many doctors did when it was illegal) there will be plenty of doctors you can go to. Let's be realistic: how many doctors do you really think there are performing abortions against their will just because there is legal precedence?
[–]W00ster 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
Even if there were doctors who wouldn't treat women, there will plenty of doctors who will.
And what if only 2% of all doctors will, what then? Just die?
It is nice to fantasize but in the real world, we like to work with evidence and not fantasies.
Libertarianism sounds great when you eat Hot Pockets and are playing the latest game on your game console in your mommas basement. In the real world however, your ideology falls apart as humans do not behave rationally and some always want more than what you have, at all cost!
[+]Corvus133 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント-4 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
No, you're right. Everyone would just die and doctors, who become doctors to help people, would just stop and say fuck it. The world would explode because global warming policies would disappear and people would dump arsenic in the food because no food regulations means everyone is a murderer and finally gets to act.
Good for business, right?
You're not delusional but a touch "stupid" if you believe that. No offense but sick of the stupidity being displayed, lately. And, proudly, I might add.
Seriously, never seen so much ignorance conjured into 1 area as this. If you think the planet is going to end because paper laws force people to be nice then that's just fucking dumb and I consider you to be a small child incapable of proper thinking.
[–]DaveYarnell 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Doctors become doctors to make money. Helping people is just a way to make money.
[–]thebuhlscrapes 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Hhahahah awwww the wittle libertarian is mad.
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント-11 ポイント 1 年 前 (57子コメント)
I think we can agree that 90% (this is being conservative) of the population of Cascadia is tolerant and accepting of other people. So if there were doctors like this, the populace would go to other doctors if they didn't want to support this kind of behavior. This means the businesses would flourish that didn't discriminate and the ones that did would suffer.
It's literally not profitable nor does it make sense for a doctor to behave this way.
[–]garypooper 34 ポイント35 ポイント36 ポイント 1 年 前 (29子コメント)
You think 10% of doctors refusing critical medical aid is acceptable!!!!!‽‽??
[+]jaroo スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント 1 年 前 (11子コメント)
I think many more than 10% of doctors today provide unacceptable care according to my standards, so if 10% happen to be racist/sexist too, well I suppose that's just the way it is. What would be more important is empowering all of us to seek out a path of healthcare that works for us, not one that is designed by lobbyists in DC.
In Japan, I could go to any doctor I wanted, and I had great access to healthcare, and it was pretty affordable. Many would call that system "socialist", but in reality it provides much more liberty than the "free market" system we have in the US.
We need to expand our perspectives on what it really means to have more freedom.
[–]garypooper 21 ポイント22 ポイント23 ポイント 1 年 前 (10子コメント)
so if 10% happen to be racist/sexist too, well I suppose that's just the way it is.
Some of us don't want to be treated by racists and being married to a Japanese woman whose mother and grandmother both died of heart attacks because of sexist attitudes towards women in Japan that go on even today, I think I'm going to stick with rule of law. For one, I love my wife and daughters.
[–]UsesMemesAtWrongTime -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
If you don't want to do business with racists, then creating a law that forces people to serve people regardless of their race is the stupidest way to accomplish that.
[+]jaroo スコアが基準値未満のコメント-16 ポイント-15 ポイント-14 ポイント 1 年 前 (8子コメント)
We can both agree that racism and sexism are undesirable things in society.
We differ in that you blame the government and laws for not caring for your loved ones. As a libertarian, I would blame those people who did not provide proper care.
[–]garypooper 21 ポイント22 ポイント23 ポイント 1 年 前 (7子コメント)
As a libertarian, I would blame those people who did not provide proper care.
Well good thing we don't live in a libertarian society. Because in our current society doctors are held to be responsible for a certain standard of medical care. No one wants to go back to the Wild West with you libertarians, esp women.
[+]jaroo スコアが基準値未満のコメント-16 ポイント-15 ポイント-14 ポイント 1 年 前 (6子コメント)
I think medical care today in America sucks. I don't know how anyone could celebrate it as a success.
If you think our current government has produced a system that works, then you need your head examined.
[–]UsesMemesAtWrongTime -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Yeah! Let's strawman the fuck out of them!
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-16 ポイント-15 ポイント-14 ポイント 1 年 前 (15子コメント)
Not even close to what I actually said, but let's pretend it is.
Even without government involvement there would still be medical organizations that set standards for care.
[–]garypooper 23 ポイント24 ポイント25 ポイント 1 年 前 (10子コメント)
Bullshit. What country employs an entirely voluntary medical licensing system?
[–]Vroome 13 ポイント14 ポイント15 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
So who is this magical international organization that is private that can stop doctors from not treating people because of race?
We are waiting for an answer.
Because the only ones that exist are state-based. So you libertarians are just lying at this point and it is sort of pathetic.
[–]garypooper 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
I agree with you, I think you are replying to the wrong person.
[–]Vroome 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
sorry:/
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-19 ポイント-18 ポイント-17 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
Oh one of my favorite refutations. "IF IT'S SO GREAT WHY HASN'T ANOTHER COUNTRY TRIED IT!" Never gets old.
Consumers would be much more likely to go to a medical practitioner that is accredited, which would make it more profitable for an organization to create standards of care.
[–]garypooper 23 ポイント24 ポイント25 ポイント 1 年 前 (3子コメント)
So, in other words you have nothing but your ideology as proof that your ideology is correct.
Do you know what we call people like you? Cultists.
[–]UsesMemesAtWrongTime 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Look up mutual aid societies you ignorant ass. Minorities got medical care cheaply way before governments were deeply involved in health care.
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-15 ポイント-14 ポイント-13 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
It's pretty sound economic principle that people in business will make smart business decisions. Perhaps that's to complex of a topic for you.
Also, more name calling, brilliant.
[+]smacksawVancouver スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント-11 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
It's international.
[–]garypooper 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
[+]taelor スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント-11 ポイント 1 年 前 (3子コメント)
Not even close to what I actually said
I've ran into this all over this subreddit, and its just saddening. /u/rakista did the same thing to me.
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-22 ポイント-21 ポイント-20 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
When someone can't find a flaw in your concept, they must attack your character. He couldn't find something wrong with the concept, so he basically claimed I'm okay with doctors letting people die.
This is how liberals accomplish their ends. By eliciting a emotional response from the voting pool instead of asking them to think.
[–]FuzzyBacon 23 ポイント24 ポイント25 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
I think my irony detector just exploded...
[–]reveekcm 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
hahahahahah
[–]TheLateThagSimmonsSeattle 16 ポイント17 ポイント18 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
As true as that is, it only works in areas that have pushed well past society-wide discrimination.
The (right) libertarian viewpoint of the virtuous consumer, while technically true in some cases, is extremely narrow. It's entirely dependent on a very well educated and extremely conscientious consumer. Yeah right...
Look at how many people showed up to support Chick-Fil-A last year when the owner refused to back down on his homophobic viewpoints.
[–]Vroome 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 1 年 前 (25子コメント)
What if it is is an emergency room doctor who is the only one in a small town? A gay couple is in a car crash and he refuses to help them.
You think that is ok, fuck you!
[+]jaroo スコアが基準値未満のコメント-18 ポイント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント 1 年 前 (13子コメント)
I would think libertarian philosophy agrees that all have a right to life, so denying someone emergency care is like walking by a man bleeding to death on the sidewalk and doing nothing...something libertarians would not approve of. So the fear that a libertarian Cascadia will result in gay people dying at the hospital doors is silly.
If your society turns gay couples away at the hospital, you've got bigger problems than the style of your government.
[–]garypooper 26 ポイント27 ポイント28 ポイント 1 年 前 (5子コメント)
I would think libertarian philosophy agrees that all have a right to life,
No, you don't. In a libertarian society it is a crime to coerce the doctor with regulations to force him to take care of anyone. It is not a crime to walk past a dying person on the street. Good samaritan laws are not libertarian, at all.
[+]jaroo スコアが基準値未満のコメント-16 ポイント-15 ポイント-14 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
You're right that a libertarian government would be reluctant to force anyone to do anything against their will. To ignore a dying person is a crime against humanity, something I think we can all agree should not happen. But should the government get involved in punishing those actions? Probably not, according to libertarians.
If a libertarian society has a problem with people dying on the streets, they would strive to fix it, because it values liberty over all, and you can't pursue liberty if you're dead.
Why should all problems be solved using a coercive government? I look around me and see the problems of Cascadia most effectively being solved by the community. Sure, there may be some government involvement at this point, but I see no point in sending tax dollars to DC to task that government with fixing our problems.
[–][deleted] 13 ポイント14 ポイント15 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
But should the government get involved in punishing those actions? Probably not, according to libertarians.
And that's exactly why libertarianism sucks.
By creating laws to fix the problem ... oh wait.
[–]jaroo 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
This is where we differ. People like you seem so eager to punish people to solve the problems you see, through laws and government. I must side with libertarians in thinking that progress is achieved through COOPERATION, NOT COERCION. Obviously some laws are necessary, but it shouldn't always be the first reaction to fixing a problem.
I suppose I have more faith in my fellow human beings than authoritarians, who seem to prefer the "run to mommy" approach to getting along in this world.
[–]Comms 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
The problem I see with liberation ideas is that you make lots of declarations of "what" will happen (people won't die in the streets) but no "how" solutions. How will we ensure that no one dies in the streets if no one compels a "duty to treat"?
"Free market" is philosophy, not a policy and procedure. Your argument relies on individual adherence to doctrine.
[–]Vroome 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 1 年 前 (6子コメント)
So you are pro-life?
[+]jaroo スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10 ポイント-9 ポイント-8 ポイント 1 年 前 (5子コメント)
As in, anti-abortion? Obviously a libertarian would place highest value on the liberty of a woman over that of an unborn fetus.
This is why political debate is dead in America. It always comes back to abortion and guns. No room for intelligent discussion.
[–]Vroome 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
So you are inconsistent as well.
I would think libertarian philosophy agrees that all have a right to life
There is no qualifications there.
Do you just like to hear yourself talk?
[+]jaroo スコアが基準値未満のコメント-11 ポイント-10 ポイント-9 ポイント 1 年 前 (3子コメント)
There are times in the natural world when living beings depend on others to survive. I believe that humans have evolved to see value in helping one another, and virtually all will lend a hand when presented the opportunity.
I am not afraid to depend on the good will of my fellow humans to help me when I'm bleeding to death on the street.
I'm more afraid of a government/police force, increasingly armed with weaponry and tools of coercion, which has power to kill me at will, or imprison me for making decisions it sees as "wrong".
Lives today are not threatened by lazy bystanders, but they are threatened by the authoritarian state. I think we should focus on where the real threat to life is.
You are saying that. We libertarians are not. But we will be tarred by your brush as believing such idiocy because you are promoting it.
If you're not following the Constitution and you're harming the rights of others, the barest minimum of the rule of law should come down on you.
Has it ever occurred to you why the NSA can violate the 4th Amendment? Because people require enumeration of things that are naturally understood and guaranteed under the Constitution. The NSA is acting unconstitutionally. Big govt lovers make things too complicated by legislative overkill.
Your scenario is illegal and unconstitutional and no additional law is needed. If you wonder why people can violate the Constitution, it's because of legislative overkill creating laws that supersede it. We don't pass laws to clarify rights or grant new ones, we pass laws making things illegal...or worse, making things legal that were naturally legal like marriage or drugs.
[–]Vroome 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 1 年 前* (0子コメント)
Because people require enumeration of things that are naturally understood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
So, what is the 9th amendment my Constitution loving friend?
Big govt lovers make things too complicated by legislative overkill.
What does that mean?
Your scenario is illegal and unconstitutional and no additional law is needed.
Not according to libertarianism, the right of the doctor to his labor cannot be coerced. There is literally nothing libertarian about what you are talking about.
[+]_Shamrocker_Vancouver, WA スコアが基準値未満のコメント-21 ポイント-20 ポイント-19 ポイント 1 年 前 (8子コメント)
Ah, typical liberal emotional appeal to distract from the issue right there, even though that's not even close to what I said.
Even without federal regulation, medical associations would exist and they would set standards for care to be a part of said organization.
[–]garypooper 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
No they would not.
Seriously? You don't think groups of professionals skilled in a field won't get together to discuss how to progress their field further? That's absurd.
Self organization is a precept that defines this universe, its just something that happens.
I would say that the AMA was created without federal regulation, and they've been around for over 150 years.
[–]garypooper 20 ポイント21 ポイント22 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
Setting standards is not regulation.
I'm a civil engineer you think we should have private companies enforcing building codes on bridges? R U fucking insane?
[–]UsesMemesAtWrongTime -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 1 年 前* (0子コメント)
Electronics which can shock and kill you are already privately certified by UL. The fact that building regulations are set by the government only proves that the government has a monopoly on that area. Your lack of thinking beyond the present status is astounding.
[–]UsesMemesAtWrongTime -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
I should have just checked before I replied to a bunch of your comments. You're another one of the bots from /r/EnoughLibertarianSpam who prides themselves on making awful arguments.
[–]Vroome 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
There is no such international or national private organization.
[+]taelor スコアが基準値未満のコメント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント-15 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
Doctors without Borders?
American Medical Association?
[–]Vroome 19 ポイント20 ポイント21 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
A charity group and a lobbying group.
I don't understand what you are getting at, neither of those can set regulations.
[+]jaroo スコアが基準値未満のコメント-14 ポイント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
I like libertarianism because I value personal liberty, and seek a society which is moving in that direction, not the opposite which we have today.
A libertarian society should give you MORE freedom when it comes to healthcare. You would have more options, more liberty. If liberty is the ultimate goal, society will find a way to help everyone get what they want out of life and get along peacefully. It's already working in the PNW so I think if Cascadia could just kick the corrupt DC pigs out of our business, we would achieve even more success.
[–]Vroome 43 ポイント44 ポイント45 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
Libertarians are not the only people that care about liberty.
A libertarian society should give you MORE freedom when it comes to healthcare.
The freedom to die in a waiting room because the doctor does not like the color of your skin? That does not sound like freedom to me.
[–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
This.
[+]Corvus133 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-10 ポイント-9 ポイント-8 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
I like how every Libertarian comment is down voted to shit while anyone who just says "Disagree" is up voted.
[–][deleted] 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
That's the free market of ideas at work. Isn't that what you wanted?
[+]Corvus133 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-17 ポイント-16 ポイント-15 ポイント 1 年 前 (2子コメント)
"That is A-OK in libertarian philosophy and I, for one, find it disgustingly naive."
Spin, the game of spin is fun. Find the nastiest example and claim ALL Libertarian's are like that.
What are black people like? All criminals?
What about Muslims? All ready to attack and suicide bomb?
Love the stereotyping. And, your belief is superior? Morally superior?
Anyways, this whole thread read pretty ignorantly but factual arguments don't go up against people saying stupid shit like "It's ok in Libertarian world."
Yes, because ALL Doctors, including women, would refuse to, specifically, treat you. It was confirmed. 100% proven.
What a joke.
[–]DaveYarnell 21 ポイント22 ポイント23 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
No, when ANY doctor can, it is disgusting.
[–]Vroome 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
I'm talking about doctors providing critical healthcare, not libertarians.
In a libertarian society, a doctor who refuses to treat women that have been raped is A-OK.
[+]theryanmoore スコアが基準値未満のコメント-21 ポイント-20 ポイント-19 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
While I agree, if this libertarian utopia was instituted in the US today, women in general would have enough money to get treated properly. God help those who don't have money though.
[+]smacksawVancouver スコアが基準値未満のコメント-20 ポイント-19 ポイント-18 ポイント 1 年 前 (3子コメント)
First, your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness cannot be infringed upon. Secondly, it would be up to you in your local community to come up with your own guidelines. Third, left on their own, I would argue we'd have MORE doctors performing abortions because the right or left couldn't regulate it either way as blocking your access to it or performance of it as a doctor would be unconstitutional.
[–]Vroome 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
That is the Declaration of Independence not the Constitution and all those things can be or we would be in a world without prisons.
The rest doesn't follow from the first point.
[–]NouberNouSeattle 23 ポイント24 ポイント25 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
So my trains won't work on the tracks in your town. Ok. Gotcha.
Some stuff requires nationalized standards for things to work out well.
Quit living in a fantasy land. Please. Just grow up.
[+]Corvus133 スコアが基準値未満のコメント-9 ポイント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Why won't the trains work? This isn't a point, it's a made up belief.
Nationalized standards? Name some. Let's hear them and let's really not be bias and include some that don't need to be there.
Quit living in fantasy land? So, the one that promises free education, free health care, infrastructure, pensions, etc. isn't a fantasy land?
See, that's why I know Liberal minds are out in left field. They literally think everything they try to do - force equality, redistribute wealth, etc. is all about building a Utopian Fantasy. It has to be because they keep referencing it towards anyone else.
How is pursuing your own interests something someone needs to "grow up out of?"
Maybe you ought to grow up of the perspective you have. Seriously, you just wrote "trains don't work on tracks in your own town" and think you made a point? And so do 15 other individuals?
Wow. Anyways, this is all very "liberal" and "progressive" so just down vote.
[–]No_LotR_No_Life[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 1 年 前 (20子コメント)
Okay, your opinion based on your views, shaped on your experiences. Thanks for the response. Could you reiterate on why you think it seems lazy and slapdash, I'm not try to start anything, I just genuinely want to know why?
[–]ComradeKoolaid 41 ポイント42 ポイント43 ポイント 1 年 前 (19子コメント)
It is a philosophy that wants to feed the hungry and heal the sick but you want the robber baron to keep his exploitative company unrestrained by any factor except the free market.
It's a position of contradictions so caught up in treating the symptoms they don't stop to look at the actual illness. For all it's talk of personal freedom Vroome brought up a very good point. What if you need medical care but no doctor will treat you; because for whatever reason they refuse to?
It ends up going half-way in both directions and ends up going nowhere at all.
[+]No_LotR_No_Life[S] スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント 1 年 前 (18子コメント)
Well, I'd hope that doctor goes out of business, (watch out, free market coming in), I wouldn't go there and in our society, I would hope others wouldn't go there either. But you are right in drawing attention to that flaw. However I wouldn't want a doctor who is only treating me because of the threat of government retribution. As for the robber barons, if I remember high school history, many of those Barons got their power from corruption in a federal government that was in the pocket of big business. And you're right, in the free market there is nothing to restrain business. Only the actual consumer, who decides whether that corporation exists. I understand that might not sit well with your views and that here it's not a very popular view. Thanks for the civility in your responses.
[–]Vroome 35 ポイント36 ポイント37 ポイント 1 年 前 (15子コメント)
Well, I'd hope that doctor goes out of business, (watch out, free market coming in), I wouldn't go there and in our society, I would hope others wouldn't go there either.
We don't want to build a society on anyone's hope of how others will act.
However I wouldn't want a doctor who is only treating me because of the threat of government retribution.
You are also against medical licensing? Everyone can just claim to be a doctor‽
[–]rakistaTimber Army 28 ポイント29 ポイント30 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
It is an ideology that quickly leads to inhumane conclusions and it can not survive in a democratic state because it is wholly against political pluralism. A libertarian state could only pass libertarian legislation; it would, in fact, be a single party totalitarian state. People would never vote for purely private roads, schools etc and any attempt to make public roads and pay them with taxes would be violently opposed by libertarians.
So libertarians want a society in which anyone who is not libertarian has zero political liberty. Does not sound very much like a society I want to be part of and I would hope Cascadia rejects such simple-minded selfishness outright.
Libertarians would rather shoot you dead than allow you to tax them to build a public school.
[–]saghalie 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
I think this is overreaching. You could make the same argument about almost any ideology. Any Libertarian who works through democratic means and accepts that they may not always win if that's not what the people want is hardly an autocrat.
[+]No_LotR_No_Life[S] スコアが基準値未満のコメント-13 ポイント-12 ポイント-11 ポイント 1 年 前 (12子コメント)
No, I'm for limited government. That's all.
[–][削除されました] 1 年 前* (6子コメント)
[deleted]
[–]narrenburgForeign Legion 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
Actually, libertarian socialists tend to disfavor private property because it inhibits use of the means of doing something (e.g. living, production). Instead, we say that people can have personal property. Examples of personal property are:
Toothbrush
Bed
Armchair
Television
Kitchen knife
Potato salad
House
Bicycle
Ticket to concert
Backyard
Beer
Kayak
[–]leftofmarx 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Possessive property vs private property is an argument too often left out of these discussions. Libertarians need to read, and understand, Proudhon.
[–]No_LotR_No_Life[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 1 年 前 (3子コメント)
Thanks for the links, looks like I have some late night reading to do.
[–]mirth23 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 1 年 前* (2子コメント)
Along similar lines check out Scandanavian socialism models the Nordic hybrid socialist/capitalist model. Norway and Sweden are great examples - Norway is largely privatized while Sweden's services are mostly State-run. Each has its own pros and cons. Wikipedia has excellent summary articles.
Norway and Sweden have great welfare states, but they're not necessarily socialist.
In Norway and Sweden, are the means of production collectivized? Do people have a direct say in what happens at work? Is private property abolished/minimized? Do Norway and Sweden have classless societies?
[–]Vroome 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 1 年 前 (4子コメント)
That is not libertarianism. Libertarianism starts society from scratch with no public services or regulations of any kind. I would suggest reading up on Rawls vs Nozick, it will enlighten you. You are most likely some form of modern liberal with economically conservative views. You are welcome a seat at the table but you don't get to tell me I don't have any civil rights.
[–]No_LotR_No_Life[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 1 年 前 (3子コメント)
I wouldn't dream of that. But I'm pretty sure what you are describing is Capitalist Anarchy.
[–]narrenburgForeign Legion 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Which can never happen because capitalism perpetuates an oppressive hierarchy and a class system, two things anarchism opposes.
[–]Vroome 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
People stop downvoting him!
That is what I am getting at. Libertarianism because it posits itself as a purely rational ideology opposed to government coercion and authoritarianism in all forms can be demonstrated to only be possible if a society eliminates all government. Anything else is incoherent.
Classical and modern liberalism is based on political pluralism and is what both democrats, and republicans in their best of times practice. They set out a methodology to arrive at legislation, justice, and executive power -- add a little checks and balances per Montesquieu -- and walla you have a representative democracy. Libertarianism is inherently anti-democratic and that is something Cascadia values very dearly.
Why should libertarians dictate to the rest of us how we should live and prevent us from collecting taxes for things we want built?
[–]leftofmarx 17 ポイント18 ポイント19 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Hoping the doctor goes out of business is no substitute for a dying man in need of medical attention.
"Free Market" - yeah, free to die.
[–]soulcaptain 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
Well, I'd hope that doctor goes out of business, (watch out, free market coming in)
And how long will that take? This is another fallacy that Libertarians can't seem to understand: the market is not rational. People, in the aggregate, are not rational. Google the Prisoner's Dilemma or the Tragedy of the Commons for some examples of this. I read a quote a while ago that summed it up pretty well: the problem with libertarianism is that it assumes the entire world is made up of perfectly spherical humans in a vacuum.
Yeah, the market should drive that doctor out of business, but if the doctor has the gold to make the rules (or more to the point, the lack thereof), who's to know he isn't playing nice?
[–]Corvus133 -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 1 年 前 (1子コメント)
"Utopia?"
Stopped reading there.
Funny that people preaching "freedom" would mean utopia. What part of earning and pursuing your own interests sounds utopian outside the idea of choice?
Isn't promising free health care, education, retirement pensions, etc. more like a "utopia?" Where everyone ALWAYS wins even when no one really does, long term?
I never understood this notion of "utopia" combined with "freedom." The very notion that "freedom" would lead to "utopia" would defeat the whole notion of "freedom."
The only utopia existing is what people perceive utopia to be. Some perceive farming to be utopia and others see it as sitting around and having everything done for you (which is how I view it). The farmer, in my example, is just "happy with life."
We aren't after utopia's.
[–]ComradeKoolaid 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 1 年 前 (0子コメント)
So did I.
π Rendered by PID 8060 on app-172 at 2015-01-29 16:08:58.533771+00:00 running ca1aa6c country code: JP.
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[–]Vroome 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント (0子コメント)
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[–]garypooper 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント (4子コメント)
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[–]NouberNouSeattle 23 ポイント24 ポイント25 ポイント (1子コメント)
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[–]narrenburgForeign Legion 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント (1子コメント)
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[–]ComradeKoolaid 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント (0子コメント)