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[–]ComradeKoolaid 58 ポイント59 ポイント  (137子コメント)

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Well see that's the problem; at least in my admittedly biased view point it is a bargain basement political philosophy.

It's all well and good to talk about utopia and the free market working hand in hand with a free society but at the end of the day it just seems to me like so much masturbation of any political ideology without any of the merit of challenging some of the established conventions or asking any real meaningful questions of it's own.

There is nothing wrong with the view point, but it all seems so lazy and slapdash.

[–]Vroome 69 ポイント70 ポイント  (113子コメント)

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There is nothing wrong with the view point

There is at least one thing fundamentally wrong with libertarianism; namely, that property rights are considered the only right one needs and that civil rights don't exist. As a Cascadian of the female persuasion I don't like the idea of having my access to healthcare determined by the whim of the doctor I go to.

In a libertarian society, doctors could do what they did before we had civil rights for women and refuse to treat them because they think women who are raped are sinful. That is A-OK in libertarian philosophy and I, for one, find it disgustingly naive.

[–]RPrevolution 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

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and that civil rights don't exist

Could you be more specific / provide an example?

[–]Vroome 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

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All natural rights theory, esp Lockean Property Rights theory believe solely in property rights. Even political liberty, the right to vote, is based on property rights as renters are considered not invested in society.

So if you rent and are a libertarian, you are campaigning against your own political liberty.

[–]LDL2 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

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You are blatantly incorrect about lockean property rights. Most libertarians don't even accept the lockean proviseo which they are based on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockean_proviso

http://www.stephankinsella.com/2009/08/down-with-the-lockean-proviso/

No, it is based on the Lockean idea that the right to land is an equal right.

By that I mean: the idea that an individual has "property" in land only to the extent that there is, in the words of John Locke, "enough, and as good left in common for others." In that sense, the right to land is not a collective right, but an individual right that exists independently of the collective (i.e. "society"). The equality of this right is merely a limitation that arises from the presence of others with like rights.

By contrast, a collective right to land dictates that an individual does not have a right to use any land unless society -- either explicitly or by omission -- has granted him the right to do so.

With the equal right to land, one does not require the consent of society to use land. The right to the use of land belongs at birth to each individual. So while the consent of others is not needed, it is, nevertheless, necessary that in the exercise of that right, one does not infringe upon the equal right of others -- i.e., violate Locke's proviso that there be "enough, and as good left in common for others." And since the rental value of land provides an accurate measure of the extent to which said proviso has been violated, "others" should be compensated in accordance with that value. At the same time, of course, all taxes on labor and capital should be abolished, since they violate the exclusive right that each individual has to the fruits of his own labor.

[–]Vroome 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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I've read Nozick, I know of the Lockean Proviso and even his miniarchism was not coherent, he admitted so himself, I reject your point. Only the most extreme reading of Lockean property rights with zero common goods, resources, or services is coherent as anything else is a wish list because libertarians can't say one thing is a common good like public roads while denying public healthcare.

There are dozens of sets of natural rights theories by the way, all claiming to be inalienable. Which set -- God -- do you believe in?

[–]LDL2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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Only the most extreme reading of Lockean property rights with zero common goods, resources, or services is coherent as anything else is a wish list because libertarians can't say one thing is a common good like public roads while denying public healthcare.

Uh services are very much different. A moron can figure out why so I won't rehash that. Most goods are easily determined as well though there is a grey area you aren't likely to reach. The best answer I can give you is to read some economics-(early economics) and to mention you are close on the resources front.

I don't believe in natural rights outside of a thought experiment that can prove quite useful to understand how societies are best functioning.

[–]Vroome -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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Uh services are very much different

Well, I disagree and in a libertarian society I apparently would be stopped by libertarian thugs from enacting legislation for the commons according to your incoherent ideology. Want a public library? Get shot by a libertarian mob for trying to raise taxes for it. That sounds like a libertarian dictatorship.

I don't believe in natural rights outside of a thought experiment that can prove quite useful to understand how societies are best functioning.

Then why base a society on a thought experiment?

[–]LDL2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Well, I disagree and in a libertarian society I apparently would be stopped by libertarian thugs from enacting legislation for the commons according to your incoherent ideology. Want a public library? Get shot by a libertarian mob for trying to raise taxes for it. That sounds like a libertarian dictatorship.

Well you pulled that out of nowhere. Not at all.

Then why base a society on a thought experiment?

Who said I was? Lets rehash this conversation. You said something incorrect about the application of a theory as well as who believes in it. I corrected you. Now I'm killing poeple and designing a society. You presume so much.

[–]No_LotR_No_Life[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (20子コメント)

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Okay, your opinion based on your views, shaped on your experiences. Thanks for the response. Could you reiterate on why you think it seems lazy and slapdash, I'm not try to start anything, I just genuinely want to know why?

[–]ComradeKoolaid 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (19子コメント)

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It is a philosophy that wants to feed the hungry and heal the sick but you want the robber baron to keep his exploitative company unrestrained by any factor except the free market.

It's a position of contradictions so caught up in treating the symptoms they don't stop to look at the actual illness. For all it's talk of personal freedom Vroome brought up a very good point. What if you need medical care but no doctor will treat you; because for whatever reason they refuse to?

It ends up going half-way in both directions and ends up going nowhere at all.

[–]Corvus133 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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"Utopia?"

Stopped reading there.

Funny that people preaching "freedom" would mean utopia. What part of earning and pursuing your own interests sounds utopian outside the idea of choice?

Isn't promising free health care, education, retirement pensions, etc. more like a "utopia?" Where everyone ALWAYS wins even when no one really does, long term?

I never understood this notion of "utopia" combined with "freedom." The very notion that "freedom" would lead to "utopia" would defeat the whole notion of "freedom."

The only utopia existing is what people perceive utopia to be. Some perceive farming to be utopia and others see it as sitting around and having everything done for you (which is how I view it). The farmer, in my example, is just "happy with life."

We aren't after utopia's.

[–]ComradeKoolaid 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Stopped reading there.

So did I.