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Monday Minithread (1/26) (self.TrueAnime)

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[–]searmay 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (13子コメント)

After a couple of conversations over the last few weeks, I've been pondering ambition in anime. Partly how it's portrayed, but mostly how it's shown in the creation itself.

But I haven't got very far. Some stories show ambition in obvious ways by having dozens of characters and intricate plots. Neither of which appeal to me much, as I'd rather see a quiet personal drama between a small, well-explored cast.

I suspect most people here would think more of thematic ambition - an attempt to convey a deep or significant message. And as usual that doesn't really do much for me. In fact I'm all the more dubious about writers trying to impart Profound Truths unto their audience than I am about the idea that they just have something personally important to say.

So I don't think I like the idea of "ambitious" anime at all. Which I suspect is a minority view. What do other people think makes a show ambitious, and what do you think of it?

[–]Lincoln_Prime 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (12子コメント)

That's a bit of a narrow view of ambition. A quiet personal work can be bursting with ambition. Maybe it tackles an aspect of drama some would consider taboo. Maybe it focuses on a much more constrained cast than a much larger one, putting more narrative weight on the shoulders of just 2 or 3 characters. Maybe it just has soul.

And the idea that any anime that explores ambitious themes thus has to impart a simplistic moral truth is well, silly. A lot of great, ambitious works simply explore themes, maybe offering a few answers, but simple answers that don't fundamentally resolve the questions at hand. In fact the only works I can think of that actually go out of their way to give concrete answers are shows like Kamen Rider Fourze which while downright amazing is also a show that basically just says "Having friends is awesome and you should be a good friend to people". But even friendship isn't a hallowed ground theme where all series have to give the same positive message. Katekyo Hitman Reborn is a show that explores toxicity in friendships and never gives the audience a clear answer to the topic. It isn't out to end all discussions of friendship and relationships with its voice from the heavens, it just wants to explore a side of the Shonen ideal of friendship that we so rarely do.

But honestly the point that someone can dislike "ambition" in art is just... disturbing, shall we say. Without ambition why would artists try to do anything worthwhile at all?

[–]searmay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Maybe it tackles an aspect of drama some would consider taboo. Maybe it focuses on a much more constrained cast than a much larger one, putting more narrative weight on the shoulders of just 2 or 3 characters. Maybe it just has soul.

I don't think I would use the word "ambitious" to describe any of those.

And the idea that any anime that explores ambitious themes thus has to impart a simplistic moral truth is well, silly.

I'm pretty much just going on what you people have been telling me about thematic meaning over the last year. It would be a lot easier if you didn't keep contradicting one another.

I can't see why ambition should be more necessary for art than for anything else. People will keep making it because they enjoy it, and that's about as worthwhile as it gets.

[–]Lincoln_Prime 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (10子コメント)

How would you say none of those fit the definition of "Ambitious"? Is a small, sentimental tale, dealing with a taboo subject such as, say, incest, not ambitious for tackling a subject so few have tried? Waiting on Godot not ambitious?

Look, this wouldn't be the first time I don't even slightly understand your position but allow me to provide an example of an ambitious work I'm sure everyone is familiar with. A work that succeeds almost entirely on ambition alone. Something that isn't, in your words "2deep4you" or filled with any pretension. A work that speaks very clearly to my understanding of the soul and the human condition.

I talk, of course, about Space Jam

And just so you know, none of the above was hyperbole. Space Jam really is a movie that succeeds almost entirely on ambition. I mean, let's make no bones about it. It is a shoe commercial staring Michael Jordan and Bugs Bunny. If any film had an excuse to be a cynical cash grab that put the cheapest bright lights in front of you, it would be Space Jam.

But it isn't. It MOSTLY is, but let's say that 1% of what makes Space Jam Space Jam, isn't. That 1% is soul. And it drives the ambition that makes Space Jam special. Putting in Pulp Fiction references isn't going to help you sell shoes to children. Jokes about Bill Murray aren't going to make 6 year olds guffaw. The music crew didn't need to work their fingers to the bone on an album that would go triple platinum. Michael Jordan's surprisingly endearing turn as an actor is not the performance you would see in someone who's just there for a cheque. There's heart in Space Jam. And this was the movie that absolutely needed a heart the least.

THAT is ambition. That's what connects people. That 1% of heart is why we have Charles Barkley Shut-Up and Jam Gaiden or This beauty all those years later.

And you know, maybe that's the human condition too. We're just organic machines, going out our programming in a cynical world of cynical people all without any clue what's going on. But maybe that little spark that Space Jam has is what makes this little blue rock so awesome. In the same way that Space Jam is awesome.

[–]searmay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Joke's on you: I've never seen Space Jam.

And really it sounds like you're using "ambition" to mean "stuff you like". Whereas I was thinking of something more conventional like "an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction". Which I do not see in a sentiment like "heart". Not that I'm dismissing it as unimportant, but if you consider caring about the movie you're making ambitious you must be far more cynical about Hollywood than I am.

[–]Lincoln_Prime 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Look, I'll be upfront with it. Do you have a learning disability? Is english your fourth language? Were you raised by anacondas?

I just have no idea how you reach the positions you do. Please, take me through this here. I've just seen you put forth some of the absolute WEIRDEST ideas regarding art since the 2014 retrospective on Saturday.

How do you go from me saying "Space Jam had every right to phone it in and it didn't. It went above what any shoe commercial ever needed to be or what anyone ever asked a shoe commercial to be. That is ambitious". to "Ambition must be whatever you want to to be to suit your tastes".

And you know what? Your definition of ambition is flawed. Ambition is about rising above expectations. It's about relative positions. Space Jam is a movie I would rate at a 65% on something like Rotton Tomatoes or Metacritic. It's decent. But it is a billion times better than any shoe commercial would have been if there wasn't that 1% of heart in it. And nobody asks for heart from a shoe commercial. The fact that they went out of their way to connect with people. To rise to the challenge of being Art and communicate with people, touch them. How do you NOT see that as ambition?

Not all heart is ambitious, no. And you can reach heart without ambition. Ambition isn't about reaching a goal post. It's about reaching THE NEXT goal post. And the distance between "Successful Shoe Commercial" and "A memorable all-ages cartoon with fantastic soundtrack and a drop of human emotion" is so wide. So deep. That any attempt to bridge that would be ludicrous. But Space Jam does it. And THAT'S why it's ambitious. That's why it succeeds on ambition.

Ambition is all about going one step further. And I think where there seems to be a miscommunication is that you're taking that far too literally and applying it only to things like "scope" and "character number" things that have very very little to do with what a story actually is. Sure there's SOME degree of ambition in Durarara's huge cast, but it's nothing compared to the ambition Durarara has in exploring each and every character in exactly the same way. As deeply troubled people who have shaped their lives based on stories they've been told. Taking that one magnifying glass and seeing how far it goes on such a scope is FAR more ambitious than just adding in another 4 characters.

[–]searmay 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

So your point is that Space Jam is ambitious as a shoe advert? Because I assumed you were talking about it as a movie.

The reason I tend to be skeptical that exploring realistic characters is "ambitious" is because I'd assume more or less everything wants to do that to some extent. Having the same goal as everyone else isn't what I'd call ambitious, even if you're more successful at it. Or do you suppose that some authors decide to write weak pseudo-human caricatures on purpose for some reason? I see a difference of skill there, not ambition.

[–]Lincoln_Prime 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Space Jam is ambitious for what people asked it to be. A movie length shoe commercial that featured Bugs Bunny and Michael Jordan. There is no platonic idea of "movie" that it was trying to overcome and be ambitious against. Just the specific circumstances that lead to the creation of Space Jam, in this case the desire Warner Brothers and Nike to sell shoes (there of course is more but this is heavily simplified). It isn't about "Ambitious for a Movie" or "Ambitious for an Anime". This is all a-fucking-bout the circumstances. That's what makes Space Jam, as a whole, ambitious.

And of course everyone wants to explore realistic characters but the ambition is in the hows and the whys. Durarara is ambitious for taking the same exact lens to every character, when those characters range from Shizuo to Ryugamine. Any other author would have looked at these two wildly different characters and thought to explore them differently. Maybe examine and develop Shizuo's psychology through his medical condition, go hard-science and see what the effects of your body always being in panic mode would do to you psychologically. Maybe examine Ryugamine with a lens more focused on mental health. Maybe explore Celty totally divorced from all myth of Dulahan and "Headless Riders". But to hold on to one lens and craft everything around that is to put a challenge on yourself. To hold yourself to a higher standard. And that too is ambition.

Ambition isn't just some monolith. Certain works can be ambitious in certain areas but utterly safe in others. Certain works can put a new spin on something but still deliver a product that doesn't DO anything with that spin. It is nebulous and all about circumstance, expectation, and about an artist holding his art to a higher standard. Sometimes that doesn't work Sometimes an artist will hold his work to a standard he can't reach and instead deliver a product that feels out of place, maybe amateurish. But I certainly can't think of any work I'd hold as important, meaningful or touching that didn't hold the result of that ambition.

[–]searmay 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Okay, so you're just assuming I know an awful lot about Space Jam. I don't.

[–]Lincoln_Prime 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

? Where on earth do I make that assumption? Where do I say anything like "As you'll remember, at minute 52, Daffy does the following" or anything that requires anything more than a passing idea of what Space Jam is? Where do I ask you bring in outside knowledge of the workings of Space Jam that isn't discussed in earlier comments. I discuss Space Jam as a shoe commercial in the first comment, you don't get to be a smug little ass and say "Oh, I thought we were talking about movies here" if you bothered to actually read what I wrote.

So you know what? Fuck it. You're not interested in shit. You aren't interested in art being anything more than crass pornography with no communication from another living human being on the other end of the script. You aren't interested in talking about artistic intent, about ambition, about any of the actual humanity that goes into creating a work and you're totally fine using the laziest fucking excuses to ignore users like myself and /u/PrecisionEsports when we try to actually talk about it. You OBVIOUSLY aren't giving half a flying shit to even read the comments you're replying to so why the fuck should I even bother, huh? Why the fuck should ANYONE bother with you? Just... just fuck it, man.

[–]PrecisionEsports 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Man... Do you realize how big Space Jam is? Like, go post the "Comeon and Jam" song to a subreddit and watch people explode with upvotes. That ambition /u/Lincoln_Prime talks about is recognized by everyone within our generation, except for you. Think about that.