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Detective says suspects admitted singling out Chinese student near USC (latimes.com)
readerbore が 1 日 前 投稿
残りのコメントをみる →
[–]InfernalWedgieEagle Rock 32 ポイント33 ポイント34 ポイント 1 日 前 (18子コメント)
Death penalty for these shit heads. No leniency.
[–]thesecretbarn -5 ポイント-4 ポイント-3 ポイント 1 日 前 (17子コメント)
Yeah, killing is wrong! Let's kill them.
[–]dkangn3 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 23 時間 前 (14子コメント)
I don't think that's an accurate way of describing what he's saying. You're over-generalizing and not reading between the lines.
His position is not that there's something inherently "wrong" with killing somebody. His position is that killing somebody is "wrong" only when they haven't done anything to warrant such an extreme measure. So it was wrong of these kids to kill this USC student simply to rob him.
Killing somebody while robbing them, on the other hand, is abhorrent enough to our society that executing people who have engaged in such behavior could be considered "right".
Wrong and right in quotes because these are subjective concepts. But there is no logical inconsistency like you're trying to imply.
[+]thesecretbarn スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント 23 時間 前 (13子コメント)
There is, because killing is inherently wrong.
I could choose to believe that mere deliberate homicide isn't bad enough to warrant a maximum punishment, while deliberate homicide + a special circumstance like robbery is bad enough—but I don't think that's true. I think killing is wrong. I don't have to reach the fallacy of deterrence, the fact that it wastes millions of dollars every year, or that it only serves to normalize violence in our society.
Killing is wrong, full stop. It can only be justified if we are forced to do it in order to save innocent lives. If we choose to kill these murderers, zero lives are saved. Killing them accomplishes nothing to counterbalance the fact that killing them is wrong.
[–]dkangn3 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 22 時間 前 (12子コメント)
Let me get this straight.
You're arguing that your subjective moral opinion that killing is inherently wrong "full stop" makes the opinion of the above poster logically inconsistent? He has different values, and according to those values, he reached a logically consistent conclusion. It's like you're saying, dogs make bad pets. That guy said he hates bad pets, but he has a dog. Therefore, he's logically inconsistent. No, dude, he never said that. He thinks dogs make good pets. Ok?
And even beyond that little whoosh over your head, your definition of "wrong" is so general and incoherent that it's completely meaningless. How can "wrong" ever be justified? Who decides that standard? You, with your arbitrary social standards?
You say killing is justified only to save innocent lives. How many? Just one? And what's an innocent life, anyway? Here's an example: a guy attaches a bomb to an innocent (by whatever arbitrary standard you're trying to use) bystander, and then orders them to kill another innocent guy, or get blown up. Your arbitrary moral framework is meaningless here. Killing the guy with the bomb to remove the threat is wrong, but justified, under your definition. But it's still wrong, right? So then what does being wrong mean? Absolutely nothing. It's an arbitrary label that you applied to something that you didn't agree with.
This is getting too long for something that I'm sure you're going to dismiss anyway, because it doesn't fit into your subjective world view, so I'll just end on one last point.
Who says we're not saving innocent lives? You're trying to force real world situations into an intellectual and abstract vacuum. That's not how reality works. Sure, I can't say with 100% certainty that they will kill again. But in that same vein, you can't say that they won't. But looking at the evidence at hand, it's objectively and statistically far more likely that they will. Or are you trying to argue that killing is only justified when someone is literally in the act of killing someone already?
The only guy being logically inconsistent here is you.
[–]thesecretbarn -5 ポイント-4 ポイント-3 ポイント 19 時間 前 (11子コメント)
I don't care what logical structure OP was using. I don't care if it's locally coherent in his head or in yours.
Killing is wrong. That's my starting point. I don't really feel like getting into a super long conversation about why I think killing is wrong, so I hope we can just accept that it's my starting point and move on.
If you're unable to conceive of an absolute moral certainty, we have nothing to talk about. Yes, obviously I'm talking about my own subjective morality. I hope you do the same when forming opinions about life and death issues.
I'm not sure how I can explain myself more clearly, but I'll give it a shot.
Killing is wrong. It's always wrong. Sometimes it's also justified, but it's always wrong. There is no precise math problem you can do to determine whether a particular killing is justified; we're talking about human beings here, and a universe that's difficult to predict.
So your bomb on an innocent hypothetical. Let's say I know the bomb is about to go off, there is not time to defuse it, and if it goes off 2 bystanders will die. I can kill the innocent and prevent the bystanders' deaths. I would pull that trigger. Not everyone would say the same, but that's my personal definition of a killing that's barely justified but justified nonetheless. Killing the dude was still wrong. It's wrong to kill ISIS fighters, it's wrong to kill innocent bystanders, it's wrong to kill convicted murderers. But sometimes it's also justified to prevent future deaths.
If you're convicted of a crime that makes you eligible for the death penalty, the jury's two options for sentencing are death and life without the possibility of parole. If someone is sentenced to LWOP, they're in prison for life. So you're not saving any lives by killing the murderer. I guess you might hypothesize that they would have the opportunity to kill another prisoner, but seeing as it takes decades to actually execute people on death row I don't see how that's a convincing reason to kill.
There's also the absolute stone cold fact that we occasionally sentence people to death who are later exonerated. That alone should be a reason to support not killing people, but if the rest of my thoughts here aren't going to convince you, I don't see why that would.
Anyway. I'm happy to have and continue to have this conversation. I really feel strongly about it.
[–]dkangn3 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 17 時間 前 (3子コメント)
My entire point was that you're projecting your own subjective moral views onto the world at large as an objective truth. Which they aren't. And I'm not even quite sure that your moral framework is internally consistent. You seem to acknowledge that you're discussing your own subjective morality though, which is why I'm confused on how you jump from there to "Killing is objectively and absolutely a moral wrong. Period." So I guess you can explain yourself more clearly by laying out, step by step, why "Killing is always wrong". I can guarantee you that your logic is circular. "It's wrong, because it's wrong."
This entire conversation began because you were mocking other people's logical conclusions as logically fallacious, despite them being logically consistent. What separates you, at that point, from bible thumpers who ignore any logical conclusions that they don't emotionally agree with? "The Bible says you're wrong, so I don't care what logical structures you're using."
You're welcome to believe killing is wrong. You're welcome to believe that people who think killing as a whole or in certain limited circumstances is ok are wrong. That's just your opinion, man. But again, there's nothing inherently wrong about it. Every logical proof that you could possibly submit towards the conclusion that killing as a categorical class is inherently wrong will be based on or composed in part of a subjective and personal standard. That's not how objective truths work. An objective truth is something like gravity. If I jump, I will fall back down. If you jump, you will fall back down. It's a constant.
As I said before, you seem to be using "wrong" as a synonym for "I don't like that, it ain't right." I'm not sure you've ever been exposed to the brutality of nature, but according to your moral framework, this whole world is "wrong". People and animals kill each other for survival, every day. Does your philosophy even extend to animals? Why not? Some are quite intelligent even by our standards, and suffer just as much as any human could.
That makes your definition of "wrong" meaningless for any real world application. If I want to call the grass "green", I can't also call the dirt "green". I can't look at the sky and say, it's "green". I mean, technically I could, but what's the use of a word that conveys no meaning? It defeats the entire purpose of communication.
You're asserting that killing somebody who is trying to murder me is absolutely wrong. That's bullshit. Your moral framework has no relevance to real life. We as a society label things "right" or "wrong" as part of a moral system to try and promote "right", while minimizing or ridding ourselves of "wrong". So if something is inherently wrong, you cannot justify it. If you can justify it, then what makes it an objective wrong ...? Your arbitrary opinion? Your black-and-white moral standards are created in an intellectual vacuum that does nothing to provide any sort of meaning or guidance to anyone trying to live by doing "right".
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 9 時間 前 (2子コメント)
I can guarantee you that your logic is circular. "It's wrong, because it's wrong."
We're not talking about why killing is wrong, we're talking about why capital punishment is unjustified. Well, that's what I've been talking about this whole time.
This entire conversation began because you were mocking other people's logical conclusions as logically fallacious
Nope. I was mocking them as morally corrupt. I can see how my phrasing may have made you think otherwise, but I'm not sure how you still think that after all these words.
You seem to be arguing that every action is either black or white, right or wrong. I'm arguing that that's almost never true. I said this is in another comment, but again: Killing is always wrong, but sometimes it's also justified. Your comments here make me think that you read that statement as inherently contradictory. For me it is not.
Again, about the whole subjective vs. objective argument. Do you have no personal moral principles you attempt to apply to the world? I'm not arguing that there's a god who has The Truth and that if you disagree with The Truth you're by definition Wrong. I'm arguing my personal point of view and trying to explain it to you. Obviously. You're doing the same thing. Everything out of my mouth is my personal opinion.
I asked in another comment, but again: Are you a complete moral relativist? That's fine, but it would help me to know here because it seems like we're talking past each other. You're trying to argue some kind of rigid logical proof with no first principles whatsoever when I started this whole conversation by very clearly stating that I'm starting with a few principles set in stone for me.
You're asserting that killing somebody who is trying to murder me is absolutely wrong. That's bullshit. Your moral framework has no relevance to real life.
I disagree. I think valuing human life above everything but other human lives would be a great way for society to make policy.
objective wrong ...? Your arbitrary opinion?
Everyone's opinions are arbitrary. I'm just trying to explain mine. There's no Absolute Truth to read in order to double check what's an "objective" wrong or right.
[–]dkangn3 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 7 時間 前 (1子コメント)
I made a point about logical structure. You came back with a paragraph about how "Killing is wrong."
I literally asked, "Let me get this straight. You're arguing that your subjective moral opinion that killing is inherently wrong "full stop" makes the opinion of the above poster logically inconsistent?" You came back with an entire paragraph of, again, why "Killing is wrong."
At this point, I literally could not have made it any clearer by replying that "My entire point was that you're projecting your own subjective moral views onto the world at large as an objective truth. Which they aren't." Somehow, you reply in complete sincerity with "We're not talking about why killing is wrong, we're talking about why capital punishment is unjustified. Well, that's what I've been talking about this whole time." No, dude. Just no.
You've backpedaled into agreeing with my entire point that your subjective opinions are just that. There is nothing further to discuss here. You're entitled to your own opinions, just like the above poster was entitled to his. Regardless of how logically contradictory your own beliefs may be ...
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 5 時間 前 (0子コメント)
...what? Finish your sentence.
[–]eltrey 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 19 時間 前 (1子コメント)
You argue like a child. It's wrong! It's wrong! wrong! I don't care what you say, It's wrong!... Might as well cover your ears and sing "Lalallalala."
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 9 時間 前 (0子コメント)
If you won't agree that killing is wrong (really?) what's your first principle here? Are you a complete moral relativist?
[–]ROBFIA -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント 14 時間 前 (4子コメント)
So your saying killing is wrong....ohh wait no you said its right..no but you said its wrong... wait what the fuck are you even saying? Make up your mind.
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 9 時間 前 (3子コメント)
Killing is wrong, but sometimes it's also justified. If you can't follow that statement, none of what I'm saying will make sense.
[–]ROBFIA 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 8 時間 前 (2子コメント)
lol. killing is wrong but sometimes its right. You're right you make no sense.
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 5 時間 前 (1子コメント)
No, sometimes it's justified. This isn't that complicated.
[–]lmaisourRedondo Beach 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 21 時間 前 (1子コメント)
no, let's lock them up for life so tax payers pay for their living for 60 years! yay! nature never makes mistakes!
[–]thesecretbarn -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント 20 時間 前* (0子コメント)
Putting someone on death row costs the taxpayers millions more per prisoner than the cost of a life without parole sentence.
Look it up.
Edit: seriously, that's an absolutely indisputable fact. If you support the death penalty, it's not because it's less expensive. Because it's a lot more expensive than not having it.
As far as mistakes go, we've killed people who were later exonerated. I'm more worried about executing innocents than correcting nature's mistakes, whatever that means.
π Rendered by PID 14174 on app-34 at 2015-01-17 03:03:00.097591+00:00 running 6647584 country code: JP.
残りのコメントをみる →
[–]InfernalWedgieEagle Rock 32 ポイント33 ポイント34 ポイント (18子コメント)
[–]thesecretbarn -5 ポイント-4 ポイント-3 ポイント (17子コメント)
[–]dkangn3 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント (14子コメント)
[+]thesecretbarn スコアが基準値未満のコメント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント-5 ポイント (13子コメント)
[–]dkangn3 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント (12子コメント)
[–]thesecretbarn -5 ポイント-4 ポイント-3 ポイント (11子コメント)
[–]dkangn3 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント (3子コメント)
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント (2子コメント)
[–]dkangn3 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]eltrey 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント (0子コメント)
[–]ROBFIA -1 ポイント0 ポイント1 ポイント (4子コメント)
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント (3子コメント)
[–]ROBFIA 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント (2子コメント)
[–]thesecretbarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]lmaisourRedondo Beach 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント (1子コメント)
[–]thesecretbarn -3 ポイント-2 ポイント-1 ポイント (0子コメント)