全ての 169 コメント

[–]bboven86 60 ポイント61 ポイント  (9子コメント)

/u/Logan_Mac and /u/meowsticgoesnya both absolutely deserve the position. Congratulations, you guys.

[–]non_consensual 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I know this sub has my favorite mods by far. Fucking awesome.

[–]flerpsactually, it's about butts in butt journalism 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

oh stop it, you

[–]non_consensual 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

<3

[–]evil-doer 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

they are both showing very high RES vote numbers from me, so yes, very good choices

[–]bboven86 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

[–]PadaV4 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]SteamPunk_Devil 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Wait /u/Meowsticgoesnya wasn't already a mod?

[–]AN4RCHID 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They were a mod over at AgainstGamerGate, which is a very well-modded sub as far as I can tell.

[–]todiwan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

EXACTLY! I said that a vote wasn't appropriate, but that Meowtastic would be the best mod by far (thought they were a mod already, too). Same goes for Logan_Mac. Awesome people.

[–]porygonzguyMod - @porygonzguy (on hiatus)[M] 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (4子コメント)

We also have some exciting news for tomorrow.

At 2PM PST, Christian Allen (/u/Serellan) has agreed to do an AMA regarding his thoughts on #GamerGate. You may know him from a recent article he took part in. More on him here: https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/search?q=Christian+Allen+&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all

[–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn[M] 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm also working on getting in contact with the people at Goodgamers and a currently employed war reporter who's traveled all around the world.

[–]ImATalkingDog 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's amazing, hope we get both in here. I'm also amazed that no one's made any Dead Rising jokes yet. Because I feel obligated: can't wait for the Frank West AMA!

[–]Letterbocks 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sounds good. Cheers chaps.

[–]GG_Meow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wow. I didn't even know that Christian worked on some huge games that I've really enjoyed playing. Looking forward to that

[–]Dom_00 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm on the fence with these new rules.

Using soft censorship on "off topic" & "ghazi" sounds like a no-brainer but I'm still uncomfortable with telling my fellow Gamergaters what they can and can't discuss.

Some people seem to be arguing that we have "sheeple" that need to be guided to proper topics. I resent that. We are cats and cats don't like to be herded.

In a perfect world, we would have toggleable "off topic", "ghazi" & "poop" tabs. That way we can all be leaders and control our own experience on KIA.

[–]Logan_MacTwitter.com/Logan_910[M] 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Mod # 1 here, most people have seen my contributions here, there's also this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Loganmac

I'm also active on 8chan, have been following GamerGate since thezoepost kept being posted on 4chan. If you think I'm a shill let me know kek, you can stalk my past for this here http://twitter.com/Logan_910 and my posting history https://www.reddit.com/user/Logan_Mac/submitted/

That's it for my e-dick

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]board124 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If you think I'm a shill let me know

    SHILL!?!?!?!?

    [–]Lurkenz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I'm also active on 8chan

    △△△△△ HEIL THIDRAN △△△△△

    [–]Logan_MacTwitter.com/Logan_910 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Even though it's hilarious, there are people fucking up having secret cliques, stop doing it, it only feeds doubts. If you're part of GG and got nothing to hide, discuss your stuff publicly, also I don't like people having so much power

    [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Eh, depends on what you mean by secret cliques.

    Like I have a Skype chat that I'm in with some of the friends I've made through GG. It's not really a "secret clique", it's just a group with my friends.

    But if we were to start discussing things like how we're going to try to control Gamergate behind the scenes or whatever, that would be a pretty fucked up thing to do.

    [–]MrMephistopholes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    It would be a shame if someone posted your skype logs that proved you were actually trying to take over #gg.

    Like these, for example.

    [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    [–]SpawnPointGuard 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (12子コメント)

    I love the mod choices, but I still hate Rule 11. It is censorship and censorship is one of the biggest issues that GamerGate has been rallying against. Like you said, most of these posts don't make it far anyway so I don't see the big deal. But what about the rare posts that the people here do find relevant? Sometimes the bullshit eCeleb drama should be discussed here. Shouldn't it be up to the group to decide its relevance? KIAchatroom currently has 25 people there. Pushing posts there isn't all that different from deleting them. Please reconsider bringing shitposts back =(

    [–]azriel777 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    +1 AGREED.

    [–]TheHat2[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Which is why we're allowing the drama, but not Ghazi stuff. Ghazi is irrelevant to the sub. They're only connected to GG through us, anyway.

    [–]DeathBattleFan123 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I, personally, don't want to read anything about Ghazi. I, personally, also don't really want to read anything about what person A said about person B on twitterbookblr or whatever.

    That doesn't matter.

    My opposition to Rule 11 is that one of the three fundamental pillars of this community is opposition to censorship (one of the 3 C's in our own wiki). Many of us, maybe even most of us, came to this sub because places like r/Games said that GG discussion was "off-topic" and was therefore banned on their sub. That's EXACTLY what Rule 11 is. You're moving a discussion that many people in the community want to have from a place with over a thousand regular readers to a place with a few dozen.

    Whether I personally like the subject or not, it IS relevant, and you ARE still censoring it.

    You've already made a tagging system. Why not get rid of Rule 11 and just add a POOP tag for ghazi stuff?

    [–]TheHat2[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    There are better places to discuss meta-drama like the kind that comes out of Ghazi. /r/ShitGhaziSays does that job better than KiA does.

    [–]DeathBattleFan123 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    You didn't really address what I said. I know that there are other subs where ghazi can be discussed, there's no need to remind me. What I'm saying is that a statistically significant portion of this community seems to think that ghazi posts are relevant... so if you've already made a tagging system, why not just use it to tag ghazi posts and be done with it? What's the point of Rule 11 at all? At the end of the day, you're still banning discussion that many people feel is on topic.

    [–]TheHat2[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    No, there wasn't. Based on the original feedback thread, a majority of the people commenting were in favor of moving Ghazi threads to a separate sub. These posts also received the most upvotes, so we saw that as the statistical significance of the community's desires.

    The difference between Ghazi and e-celeb drama is that many posts that would be usually seen as drama have relevance to GG because of the people involved. For example, people reported threads about Brianna Wu as "e-celeb drama," despite the fact that she has entrenched herself as a player in GamerGate. Ghazi is only relevant because of KiA. They're a reactionary sub, first and foremost. Getting involved in meta-drama such as that is really off-topic for KiA, especially if we want to focus more on ethical breaches.

    [–]DeathBattleFan123 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    That's not what I mean when I say "statistically significant". I don't mean "majority", or even "plurality". I'm saying that a measurable percentage of the community, maybe 10% of it if I had to estimate, thinks ghazi threads are worth talking about. That's probably similar numbers to the percentage of people over in r/Games that wanted to talk about GG but couldn't because the mods over there said it was off topic.

    You're so certain that ghazi stuff isn't relevant, when in fact it's much more of a gray area than you're giving it credit for. Remember the other day when ghazi was caught funding an anti-GG wikipedia editor for the sole purpose of making sure the GamerGate wiki article stayed biased toward the anti side? There's been other stuff like that, but I don't remember all the other instances off the top of my head. You might say "oh, well in some cases the ghazi threads will be allowed for x y z reasons"... but if that's the case, you're admitting that Rule 11 still needs subjective arbitration. Guess what, it turns out you've got the perfect tool to avoid all such issues -- A TAG SYSTEM.

    [–]rawr_im_a_monster 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I agree. GamerGhazi is more of a counter to KotakuInAction than it is a counter to Gamergate as a whole; KotakuInAction was created on 24 August 2014 (three days prior to #Gamergate being created) while GamerGhazi was made on 22 September 2014. As well, most of their focus, to me, seems centered on discussion found here and other places on Reddit.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    It is censorship

    You forgot to explain how it is censorship. I certainly hope that nobody is going to read that and just LISTEN AND BELIEVE.

    Shouldn't it be up to the group to decide its relevance?

    No. The voting system is fundamentally broken since it doesn't take into account how people work and use the site.

    KIAchatroom currently has 25 people there. Pushing posts there isn't all that different from deleting them.

    Then go to KiAC. The subreddit has plenty momentum. If all of you people would just subscribe there instead of pretending to be the victim of censorship by the [le]teraly hittler nazi mods, that problem would be gone. And if you already are, then perhaps the shitposts are not all that popular and shouldn't be posted in the first place.

    [–]azriel777 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It is censorship! You saying what you think is important is greater than what others think is important. That is SJW logic 101.

    [–]DeathBattleFan123 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    ... the victim of censorship by the [le]teraly hittler nazi mods, ...

    You're another one of those people that can't just step back and realize that we're not criticizing the mods personally, nor are we saying that they're intentionally censoring discussion. It's simply a fact, though, that Rule 11 moves discussion from a popular forum into a ghost town. And yes, it IS relevant to enough people as to warrant a Rule 11 in the first place.

    [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn[M] 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (16子コメント)

    Is it possible to add a link to the multi reddit pinned at top on the bar as well?

    It's much more prominent there than it is on the sidebar.

    Edit:

    Anyway, guess now the's time I should disclose this before people freak out at me.

    My previous mod experience was when I created and modded /r/Againstgamergate in an attempt to create discussion between pro-ggers and anti-ggers. The naming of it as AGG was because it was supposed to be a counterpart to KIA, KIA is the pro-gg that allows discussion, while AGG would be the anti-focused sub that allowed discussion.

    I'm not AGG myself, but I did work alongside some Ghazi mods and some more neutral to Gamergate moderators.

    Currently it's left in the care of /u/saint2e (neutral) and /u/HokesOne (ghazi).

    You can read my mod post on that here: http://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstGamerGate/comments/2l613p/people_have_been_asking_me_a_few_times_why_i/


    First order of business as the mod shill is to ban everyone! Muahahahahahahahaha!

    Oh no, it's a leaked modmail! http://i.imgur.com/9SgR6PI.jpg

    Super shill, away!!!

    [–]TheHat2[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

    Yeah, I'll go add that right fast.

    [–]bboven86 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (11子コメント)

    Why is Logan green and Meowstic not?

    [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn[M] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Fixed it!

    [–]Masterofnone9 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Congratz Meow!

    [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks!

    [–]porygonzguyMod - @porygonzguy (on hiatus) 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Mods can choose to "distinguish" their comments, showing that they are speaking as mods. Doing so puts a green thing around your username.

    [–]bboven86 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Ohhh, gotcha.

    So you're saying Logan's more of an attention whore? :^)

    [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    You ever noticed Hat?

    [–]TheHat2[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I am the biggest attention whore you will ever meet.

    [–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter[M] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I want a rainbow mod flair.

    [–]TheHat2[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I don't even know if that's possible.

    [–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It is, I've seen it before some where.

    [–]Logan_MacTwitter.com/Logan_910 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Ayy I'm the biggest karma whore at least, biggest karma dick from mods I think kek

    [–]TheFlyingBastard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    I've been to AGG a few times. It was a decently nice place to discuss the nature of GG. Very meta, you know? The subreddit turned out to be much better than what the name implied. I hope you can bring some of that to this place too, because gods know that KiA could use some introspection.

    [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Probably not, this is a much much larger sub.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hah. True. I don't envy your position. :)

    [–]HessmixOrder of the △[M] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Guess I'll say hi as a mod now!

    I was a bit delayed because I was getting a new computer put together.

    But I'm here now!

    [–]energyimp 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Hello and congratulations on the new computer. Thats always an exciting day. Also congratulations on being a moderator. Same goes for the other new mods. Except the part about getting a new computer. Unless they too got new computers, in which case I should congratulate them.

    [–]flerpsactually, it's about butts in butt journalism 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I just built a new PC too! Mod master race!

    I mean wait, that's reminiscent of Nazis. Err. Mod computer butts?

    [–]elavers 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I still don't understand why you can't use the tagging system like other subs to allow people to hide topics they do not like rather then banning it to the chatroom. This has been suggested to you a number of times. I am disappointed in your handling of this issue.

    [–]Nonbeing 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    I'm glad non-Ghazi drama is still allowed, for two reasons

    1. Personal reason - it is an admittedly guilty pleasure of mine
    2. I think drawing any definitive line between "e-celeb drama" and "legitimate news concerning prominent, GG-related public figures" would ultimately be arbitrary and subjective. I'm glad you are letting the community decide which is which, and whether or not to indulge in it

    Since Ghazi is such a tiny blip on the radar anyway, I'm not really upset to see their drama diverted somewhere else. Hell, I couldn't even name a single Ghazi member, aside from anyone also known through some other medium. I really never cared at all that they existed, and I think ignoring them is for the best.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    That second point is the first coherent, rational argument I've seen for allowing dramaposts on here. You're right, it's a bit of a slippery slope. When is something just pointing and laughing and when does it actually add something? It's not that the mods aren't the ones to decide that - they are, it's their subreddit and interventionism is very healthy for a subreddit. It's just that it needs some serious discussion. The mods seem to be levelheaded enough for that so here's hoping they can crystallize the idea a bit more before the next step.

    [–]DeathBattleFan123 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If that's the first time you've seen that point, then you haven't been paying attention.

    [–]TheHat2[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Your second point is basically why we allowed it.

    Posts regarding Anita Sarkeesian were being reported for Rule 11 reasons after it was introduced, along with some other stuff that we didn't really consider "e-celeb drama," so I took to Twitter to ask what exactly an e-celeb was. There were different answers, and I kinda figured that our idea of e-celeb drama was different than everyone else's. We tried clarifying our interpretations at first, but it didn't really go so well, which led to this compromise, to really save the trouble of running into conflicting interpretations of the rule, and to also put in place the tagging system that people requested.

    [–]bugme143 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Any word from the idiotic admins about Rule 11 on other subs, or are they sticking to their guns that they totally aren't targeting KiA?

    [–]Dom_00 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Just visited the chatroom to see what's there and you have:

    Despite a new R18+ classification, Hotline Miami 2 has been refused classification in Aus, effectively banning it. (Original source)

    ...and on the front page in KIA we have:

    Hotline Miami 2 banned in Australia

    Is this some rule 8 variation or a mistake?

    [–]TheHat2[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Reposts are deleted in KiA proper, if they're crossposted to KiAChat, they don't really fall under Rule 8.

    [–]Dom_00 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Maybe I was unclear.

    Why is the first one deemed "off topic" while the other one (basically identical) is allowed to go to KIA?

    [–]TheHat2[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    KiAChat isn't only for off-topic stuff.

    [–]Dom_00 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    What else besides "off topic" & "ghazi"?

    Are you saying that duplicates go there also (rule 8 variation)?

    [–]TheHat2[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    From the sidebar:

    The main rules of reddit apply here. Do not post any dox and do not post anything illegal. Spam will also not be tolerated.

    Pretty much anything else goes.

    This is a place where you can post and talk about anything you want. Post about your favorite sports teams. A movie you just watched. The game you're playing. Your favorite TV show.

    Post discussion topics about anything you're interested in.

    So yes, duplicate posts can go there.

    [–]Dom_00 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    That's OK if the guy posted it there himself.

    I thought that the first one was soft censored & put in the chat while the other one was given a pass.

    Apologies if I sounded too judgmental. Just wanted to make sure that the system is fair.

    [–]flerpsactually, it's about butts in butt journalism 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    We can't move threads, change titles or change the content of posts. We can only remove and redirect users to post it on a different sub.

    I dunno if that's what you mean by moving, but that's the extent of our ability to enforce this. It would be awesome to see more traffic going to KiAC though, it would smooth over the issues people are having - if more people use both we can all live in happy drama-seriousbusiness harmony, and those who only want focused GG stuff can rely on KiA for supplying it.

    I know that's an unpopular viewpoint, but come on, are we losing quite that much for simply not allowing threads about ghazi on the main sub?

    [–]Dom_00 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Ok, I didn't know that the mods can't move threads directly but that is just a technicality so it changes little. Like I said, I'm fine if both threads were treated the same.

    As for KiAC - I'm not subscribing (LOL). I find little of value there. This is not about what I want. It's about having a level playing field for all of us.

    [–]Spokker 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If you want to be treated like a child, post on an Internet forum.

    [–]IMULTRAHARDCORE 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I'm cool with Logan Mac and Meowstic as mods. I see them post a lot and agree with a lot of what they say. I don't know the other two. If they are major contributors here I must have overlooked their content.

    In light of the community vote being closed, and of the mod team's choice overlapping with the most popular nominees, anyway, we've also decided to accept two applicants from the pool.

    Why? Sounds to me like the best people got the job.

    [–]aa223 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    This tagging system is all I ever wanted. I think I'm going to cry pixels.

    [–]Jaryx 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    It's your sub, but you're still trying to make us fit into boxes. If that cuck faggot moot got anything right...it's that people are multi-faceted. Just don't turn us into supermarket parking lot puppies for sale, friends...

    [–]jMerliN19k get 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (33子コメント)

    The Ghazi and drama threads were off-topic. KiA needs to stay on the path of discussing the various ethical breaches in the gaming industry, as well as important news pertaining to GamerGate. What goes on in GamerGhazi and the Twitter slapfights of e-celebs don't fall into those categories.

    This isn't a private digging channel that's password protected and hidden with lots of triangles. This sub is large enough that people do indeed come here for entertainment as well as education about the habbenings. And these things do not pose any threat to this sub. You point out why in your other reasons.

    They were cluttering the New queue. On off days, reactionary posts about Ghazi were common. Immediately after e-drama broke out, so did the posts about it. My god, how many people want to talk about InternetAristocrat leaving GamerGate?

    No they weren't. They never have. At most you see a few reposts sometimes. I sit on /new/ all day and I have never once thought "this is cluttered."

    And if you do, here's a helping hand for you: https://i.imgur.com/wHhrh3f.png. Look very closely. There's a magical button there that does fucking magics.

    Not a lot of people seemed to like them. These things rarely ever hit the front page, and often received an even amount of up and downvotes. Off-topic posts that nobody likes shouldn't have a place here.

    >up/downvotes working as intended

    >decide to discard that system and ban discussion instead

    k.

    8chan does this exact same thing. E-celeb drama is regulated to its own megathread. Given that a megathread on KiA would need prime real estate in the form of a stickied post, the next best option is to regulate that traffic to a sub that we already had, but was not getting much use for—/r/KiAChatroom.

    Please let me know when Reddit will bump a thread to the top when you make a reply to it. The magical thing about Reddit is that drama and shit that isn't relevant vanishes. Poof. You can't make shit vanish on 8chan. And it doesn't naturally vanish until people stahp talkin bout it. Reddit != 8chan.

    [–]camarougeYour games end where my Patreon begins 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    So here's the situation you have not addressed: positively upvoted offtopic posts. Too many of them, in fact. They are the cancer that is killing KiA, the gawker-brand clickbait that we rail against.

    So c'mon man, people are smoking indoors and everyone else is getting cancer. Have some consideration for the many who are tired of seeing far too many ghazi and e-celeb posts in the /r/KotakuInAction/hot. We know there's a downvote system. Great, but it is still much easier for someone to simply click once to go to another sub vs hiding/downvoting 20 posts. And because this scenario has happened far too much in general is the reason the rule was made. Please acknowledge that.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    So here's the situation you have not addressed: positively upvoted offtopic posts. Too many of them, in fact. They are the cancer that is killing KiA, the gawker-brand clickbait that we rail against.

    [citation needed]

    We know there's a downvote system. Great, but it is still much easier for someone to simply click once to go to another sub vs hiding/downvoting 20 posts.

    No, you want EVERYONE to have to click to go to another sub versus a few people who can't leave links blue or scroll or click 'hide'. It's like wanting to ban video games in Australia because some people can't just not buy the games they don't want to play, all because those people don't like the games.

    [–]camarougeYour games end where my Patreon begins 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    [citation needed]

    /r/ShitGhaziSays /r/KiAChatroom - literally the reason these subs were created.

    Not to mention the posts and reposts of anything KoP or IA related. People have a habit of not checking the queue for these types of posts, or you get one direct link, one archive, one imgur, etc. - multiple versions of the same thing, which was offtopic to begin with.

    Also, #metalgate. Never gave a shit about Metalgate. And yet there were posts on it. Too many.

    No, you want EVERYONE to have to click to go to another sub versus a few people who can't leave links blue or scroll or click 'hide'. It's like wanting to ban video games in Australia because some people can't just not buy the games they don't want to play, all because those people don't like the games

    Yeah but it's not just a few, I'm trying to tell you this, lol. You act like only just now has this been a problem. People were complaining about it in October.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    /r/ShitGhaziSays /r/KiAChatroom - literally the reason these subs were created.

    Evidence of claims of a problem are not evidence that the problem exists. Welcome to Anita Sarkeesian. Sexism in games causes sexism.

    Yeah but it's not just a few, I'm trying to tell you this, lol. You act like only just now has this been a problem. People were complaining about it in October.

    It has never been a problem. I don't care if some people complain about content they don't like. This isn't feminazi /r/ghazi and our flag is not unfun games and antisemitism.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (28子コメント)

    This isn't a private digging channel that's password protected and hidden with lots of triangles.

    Neither is KiAC. Go there for your "entertainment".

    There's a magical button there that does fucking magics.

    Hiding the thread does not solve the problem. It just hides it. Temporarily. Until the next problem arises. This is like putting a shoe on a stain in your carpet to hide the stain.

    ban discussion instead

    Redirection of low effort material is not the same as banning and the only kind of "discussion" it attracted anyway was: "JEEZ WHAT AN ASS! RIGHT? RIGHT." You would lose exactly nothing.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (27子コメント)

    Neither is KiAC. Go there for your "entertainment".

    /r/gamerghazi

    Welcome to your new home.

    Hiding the thread does not solve the problem. It just hides it.

    He says, as he suggests putting content in a place that is merely hidden. This person really is a ghazi.

    Goodbye, shill.

    [–]todiwan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    If quality-enforcing rules are going to drive away conspiracy nuts who cry "shill" whenever someone disagrees with them, then the quality-enforcing rules are working.

    Goodbye.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    "quality-enforcing rules"

    >calls his form of censorship quality enhancement

    >doesn't realize he's just ghazi

    [–]todiwan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Go to 8chan if you want an anarchy where you can greentext & shitpost all you want. Oh wait, even they put all that shit into 1 megathread. Literally every rule is, by definition, censorship. You are not allowed to insult people, you are not allowed to post in bad faith, you are not allowed to post dox. Those are all censorship. You are also now not allowed to pollute the sub with shitty drama and Ghazi idiocy - something that has gotten truly out of hand lately. And because of that, KiA is way better and more focused, AND it's fun to browse the chatroom if I'm in that mood, instead of mixing the two forms of content.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Go to 8chan if you want an anarchy where you can greentext & shitpost all you want. Oh wait, even they put all that shit into 1 megathread.

    I'm being told that Reddit == 8chan again. Just like Chrome == Internet Explorer 3.0.

    You are not allowed to insult people, you are not allowed to post in bad faith, you are not allowed to post dox.

    If you say stupid things, expect to get insulted. You being insulted doesn't matter. Are we supposed to ban anything that offends anyone? "Muh feels".

    You are also now not allowed to pollute the sub with shitty drama and Ghazi idiocy - something that has gotten truly out of hand lately

    [citation needed]

    You can't just say "we have a problem, let's censor everything to fix it." GO AWAY ANITA SARKEESIAN.

    [–]todiwan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Look at rule 1 and rule 3.

    And obviously we can, and the mods clearly agree that we can and should, because y'know, rules exist for a reason, and new rules are sometimes added. How do you function in society if you literally disagree with everything that isn't pure anarchy? Strange.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Society doesn't tell me that I can't call someone out for being an idiot. I mean they do, and then #GamerGate happened. I guess it's just me though. Me and thousands of sockpuppets.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (20子コメント)

    Classic, falsely accusing people of being shills and Ghazi because they don't toe your party line. If you don't have any rebuttals, why don't you just not respond at all? Namecalling is just shitty.

    Also, you are a great example of one of the big problems that GG faces: people who call everyone that disagrees with them "shills". Stop cultivating an us-vs-them mentality. Over here, we don't just LISTEN AND BELIEVE. We're not a cult - stop trying to make GG into one.

    [–]Dom_00 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Calling you a shill was maybe out of line but he had some good arguments. Much better that yours IMO.

    Your quote:

    Go there for your "entertainment".

    And:

    ...it attracted anyway was: "JEEZ WHAT AN ASS! RIGHT? RIGHT."

    ... were very divisive. You're not the GG leader.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    I never pretended to be the GG leader. Should I not be able to voice my opinions with their supporting arguments, when others are free to do so?

    Please, by all means, engage me on my points. I want to discuss this. GG was started based on discussion. But don't start with cheap namecalling. (Not meaning you personally.) That's how anti-GG solves their problems.

    [–]Dom_00 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    You're playing a leader by telling other Gamergaters what they should and shouldn't discuss. This community is very sensitive to that. Why do you think we don't have a leader?

    Should I not be able to voice my opinions with their supporting arguments, when others are free to do so?

    Shouldn't your fellow Gamergaters be allowed to make their own decisions on what they wanna see on KIA? Togglable tabs would allow that for each individual member.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Why do you think we don't have a leader?

    Because you can't lead a swarm of angry bees. Also, the vast range of goals and opinions of each person individually does not allow for leaders.

    You're playing a leader by telling other Gamergaters what they should and shouldn't discuss.

    Absolute nonsense. In fact, discussion is what I'm here for. Redirecting certain content to a different subreddit is not disallowing others to discuss something. There is no censorship going on.

    Shouldn't your fellow Gamergaters be allowed to make their own decisions on what they wanna see on KIA?

    What they want? Sure, that's their opinion. But what they do see? No. That is up to the moderators. We have rules, limits of what we can post here. Not just on KiA, but on this whole website. The question here is where we put those limits in the case of this subreddit and how much (if any) we should siphon off to a more casual, less serious subreddit.

    Togglable tabs would allow that for each individual member.

    So would subscribing to a sister subreddit, with the added bonus that users would not need to filter on each visit and nobody would have to keep tabs on tabs. (There has to be a better way to phrase that.) That was the idea subreddits in the first place.

    [–]Dom_00 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Redirecting certain content to a different subreddit is not disallowing others to discuss something. There is no censorship going on.

    It's soft censorship.

    So would subscribing to a sister subreddit, with the added bonus that users would not need to filter on each visit and nobody would have to keep tabs on tabs. (There has to be a better way to phrase that.) That was the idea subreddits in the first place.

    Toggleable tabs have an added bonus of treating this community like adults while allowing mods to stay out of the fray.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    "Soft censorship" is a thing now?

    treating this community like adults while allowing mods to stay out of the fray.

    Ease of use and not reinventing the wheel is not the same as treating people like children. Also, mods are in the fray right now.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (13子コメント)

    The hypocrisy of this statement in the face of trying to prevent other people from discussing things they want to discuss is why I'm calling you a shill. Not because you disagree with me.

    [–]HessmixOrder of the △[M] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    jMerliN I would refer you to Rule 3.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    You're aiming that at the wrong person.

    [–]HessmixOrder of the △[M] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    No jMerliN I'm not (called you by name). Stop calling people shills.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You're welcome to ban me for violating the rules. Go ahead and selectively enforce them. We have actual shills here making Anita Sarkeesian level arguments, with histories of massively negative comments here and in AGG and ghazi, people arguing pro-SJW rhetoric, and trying to censor this board. And you're helping them.

    Go ahead and just delete all the comments we make, we'll just go make another board.

    [–]HessmixOrder of the △[M] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    jMerliN getting angry with me isn't going to improve anything. I'm giving you a warning that's all. I'm not going to ban you...

    [–]feroslav 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    lol are you fucking joking?

    [–]TheFlyingBastard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Nobody is preventing other people from discussing anything. I actually made that point already:

    Redirection of low effort material is not the same as banning

    So as you can see, there's no hypocrisy on my end. A clear lack of reading on yours, though.

    Besides, by smearing me instead of making a proper point, aren't you the one trying to stifle discussion? How very hypocritical and Ghazi of you.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    It is a hypocrisy on your end. Almost everything on this subreddit is "low effort".

    You're classifying things you don't like and trying to change the definition of content so you can justify moving things. Sounds like a very SJW thing to do.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Glad we could move past the smearing and namecalling.

    Almost everything on this subreddit is "low effort".

    I wouldn't say that. I've seen plenty of submissions where users have been writing genuinely good stuff, articles have been posted, compilations that show double standards... that's all submissions with effort put into them.

    Hell, most submissions on the front page right now are pretty damn good.

    You're classifying things you don't like and trying to change the definition of content so you can justify moving things.

    I dispute that. Show me where I redefined anything.

    [–]jMerliN19k get 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Nobody is preventing other people from discussing anything. I actually made that point already:

    Redirection of low effort material is not the same as banning

    Anything "low effort" like a non-wall-of-text (an image of something on /gamergate/ or of something on Twitter, or a link to an article) or something they didn't research isn't something we might want to discuss. So redirecting all of that isn't the same as banning that discussion, since no such discussion would ever occur anyway. We discuss those things all the time, and indeed people write meaningful responses to those things. Even the ones you guys don't like. They're motivators. They remind people why they're here and inspire them to create more higher effort content.

    [–]TheFlyingBastard -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    There needs to be a better word for these submissions than "low effort". I mean, it is accurate, but it's so loaded...

    I'm having a bit of trouble following your point here. Must be because I'm not a native English speaker. You say that in these "low-effort" submissions people are adding meaningful responses? That's exactly what bothers me about it - that it happens so rarely.

    The Wheadon twitter submission, for example, has a comment section filled with what comes down to one point: "Wheadon is a nutball that just follows the SJW crowd."

    But perhaps this is all a bit of frustration from my side, that GG is brimming with energy and potential that just seems very undirected.

    [–]zahlman 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    To those who are salty about rule 11: If you're upset about how KiAChatroom or SGS have low subscriber counts, and you want to keep seeing that content, you can kill two birds with one stone by subscribing to those subreddits. Duh.

    [–]flerpsactually, it's about butts in butt journalism 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I will tattoo this to the inside of everyone's eyelids if I have to

    [–]EnigmaticNinja3 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Is it possible to add an "off topic" tag to the top for when someone posts something only "tangibly" related but doesn't fall under the other tags?

    [–]TheFlyingBastard -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    If it's off-topic enough to be labeled as such, it shouldn't be posted in the first place, really.

    [–]Okichah 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Quality fking update mate. Good job all around. Addressing the concerns voiced in the other update really means a lot.

    My only question is that the two other subreddits serve the same purpose so why not condense them into one?

    [–]TheHat2[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    We don't run /r/ShitGhaziSays, so we can't really consolidate them. Plus, /r/KiAChatroom is more for off-topic discussion of all sorts, anyway. A sort of "anything goes" place.

    [–]Drakojan94 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thanks for clearing stuff up. However, what exactly counts as e-celeb drama? Can someone give an example?

    [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]AutoModerator[M] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Your link has been removed. In accordance with Rule 4, linking to other subreddits is not allowed in this sub.

      I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

      [–]Okichah 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Boycott Goal of the Day posts are back on, provided we DO NOT include email addresses and names of representatives in the posts, themselves. Linking to customer care/feedback pages IS OKAY, but linking to sites/infographics that contain the email addresses and names of representatives IS NOT OKAY.

      Posted by reddit admin:

      Join us in a final push for net neutrality! It's as easy as calling (********)

      Whats the problem with this picture?

      Why are reddit admins allowed special privileges denied to a subreddit?

      [–]yutt0 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      The mod choices seem good.

      The Ghazi drama is mostly irrelevant bullshit. Those arguing for it staying are mostly dramaqueens. Same thing happened last discussion. Most KiA members agreed the Ghazi bullshit was bullshit, but the few who didn't threw themselves on the ground and started kicking and screaming.

      There are some decent arguments about soft-censorship. Maybe CSS with Ghazi shit hidden by default would work, but in the end, nothing of value will be lost either way.

      [–]hroafelme 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Good, I was honestly thinking about unsubscribing, I don't care what LWs/Ghazi say and don't need to hear about the latest stupid thing they did.

      I'm here because I want a change in gaming industry ethics not to hear about Notch literately having a fedora.

      [–]Letterbocks 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      ay up hatty, it's all good.

      Congratz and welcome to newmods too. Logan and Meow are based as fuck and I have every faith in manno and hess too.

      Let's all stay fucking wonderful and be excellent to each other and continue the long war with the bittersweet resolve of a #Rekting ball that really wished they had a less smashy uppy job. x

      [–]MannoSlimminsMod - @PartTimeHobo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      and I have every faith in manno and hess too.

      Awww. Have a kitty.

      [–]Letterbocks 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      aww, that makes me miss when my cat was young and cute. now the fucker just sits on my laptop whenever I'm not on guard.

      Gl;hf matey, god have confirmed u r good people, will back that up when I can screencap.

      [–]MannoSlimminsMod - @PartTimeHobo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      God gave me a good reference? Phew.

      [–]Letterbocks 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      [–]Damascene_2014 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Plan seems sound, as always you mods are doing a great job here and have been real defenders of the principles of free speech in a time when we need it more than ever vs. the easy, lazy path of SJ cult bandwagoning.

      [–]non_consensual 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Wonderful. Welcome everyone!

      [–]RoryTateOG³: GamerGate Chief Morale Officer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Glad to hear some AMA traffic is coming back. I was reminiscing recently that the initial months of KiA were full of varied conversations like that, and well...I kinda found myself missing them.

      The new mods are great choices, and it's good to see quality contributing members of the community being given administrative positions like that.

      And lastly, thanks for the clarification...I think the changes and new rules did come across as a bit rushed and confused, which created some of the feelings of opposition to them.

      [–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Glad to hear some AMA traffic is coming back.

      Yeah, i liked that too.

      Unfortunately it's a little hard to get AMAs sometimes.

      [–]MrMephistopholes 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      • To the old mods: Great work as always. I support all decisions made.

      • To the new mods, Grats. Except for Hessmix. Upon looking over his comment history it is clear he is an EvE Online player, which also proves his duplicitous nature. I wouldn't be surprised if he is talking with Hokesone as we speak. /s

      [–]AuntieJoJo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      All is well that ends well. Thumbs up for mods, both old & new!

      [–]kiraxa1 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (21子コメント)

      Thank you for the official clarification on rule 11. Unsubbed.

      [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (11子コメント)

      We're doing everything we can right now to make the multi reddit more prominent and in use.

      I too was a bit upset at the idea of banning content like that, but Hat makes a good point, we can't make a containment thread for it like /Gamergate/ does, but we sure can make a sub for that which we try to increase visibility of though the top bar and side bar.

      [–]kiraxa1 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (10子コメント)

      The problem with the containment thread logic is that 8chan doesn't have the controls to hide or downvote threads. Reddit does. Let us be adults and hit the hide button if something offends our view, or downvote it to keep it from ever reaching the front page. The straight up "throw it in the pit!" option is dumb and insults the intelligence of everything here, while straight up playing into the hands of shills.

      [–]MeowsticgoesnyaPlaying with a ball of yarn 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Possibly, but right now we're just trying out our options.

      Things may change again if this doesn't work out the way we want, but we won't know how things will end up unless we try them first.

      [–]camarougeYour games end where my Patreon begins 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      The problem is threads that get massively upvoted when they are pretty off topic. That sets a precedent to other redditors and over time changes the context of the sub entirely.

      Take r/TumblrInAction for example. They used to allow comments and videos from youtube, but determined that the fuckheads from youtube were too far removed from the fuckheads on tumblr, so they banned all content from that website in that sub. It makes plenty of sense considering the name of the sub anyway.

      [–]TheHat2[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Actually, we banned YouTube because of the G+ integration, so it was for personal information reasons.

      But as far as Rule 11 goes, it's comparable to the time when we moved all the Sanity posts to /r/TumblrAtRest. There was a pretty big shitstorm after that, but it settled down after some time, and eventually, we introduced Sanity Sundays, anyway.

      [–]EnigmaticNinja3 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      Not even gonna lie, I like /r/TumblrAtRest more than the original sub... There's just something about people actually being called out on their stupidity for a change.

      [–]TheHat2[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Oh yeah, it's a relief to all the stress of seeing pure stupidity being paraded around as absolute truth. Which is probably why so many people hated the shift in TiA when it happened.

      [–]flerpsactually, it's about butts in butt journalism 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I think it's nice to have a one-stop shop for it. Same with ghazi shit, if we successfully use KiAC for it I'll probably indulge in it more often.

      [–]AzraelBane -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

      Perhaps if people bothered subscribing and posting to KiAChatroom it wouldn't be a dead sub, the whole reason this even became an issue is the drama bullshit was overshadowing bgotd posts and information useful to our goals.

      [–]kiraxa1 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Thats incorrect. Rule 11 was implemented AFTER BGoTD threads were banned by reddit admin. There was no "overshadowing."

      [–]AzraelBane -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      This was well before, when KiAChatroom was first made. Wasn't talking about rule 11, im talking about telling people to throw it in the pit and leave it there

      [–]zahlman -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      This.

      Votes don't solve every content problem on Reddit. The voting community doesn't necessarily look like the active, contributing community.

      [–]YungWookie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

      [–]Stati77 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

      I'm not sure I understand your point here, the only reason you are subscribed here is to talk about Ghazi? (or you meant something else?)

      [–]kiraxa1 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

      no. But the fact that the mods have decided we are not adults enough to use the tools at hand and would rather censor discussion means I have no reason to stay.

      [–]AzraelBane -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      No one is censoring discussion even saying that is completely laughable, also if I remember correctly aren't you the one who considers KiA to be "enemy territory"? Why are you still here if you believe that more so why announce your departure? Aside from the attention I mean

      Lmao and magically everyone in this section of the thread lost their upvotes and got downvoted except you who got upvoted well out of the negative you were in, obvious much? Stay salty

      [–]YungWookie -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Most subreddits have a few hanger-ons who seem to do nothing but whine about how the mods aren't doing exactly what they want, and generally raise ruckus and make life unbearable for everyone else. This guy seems to be one of them.

      [–]cha0s 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Eh, have you seen the default subs on reddit? This is akin to arguing that city workers shouldn't clean garbage off the streets because you like the aesthetic. While your feelings are valid, trying to foist them on everyone else is not.

      [–]StrawRedditorMod - @strawtweeter 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Multi-reddits are also a tool.

      [–]YungWookie -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      There seems to be a subset of users here that only care about e-celeb drama and what Ghazi says about us.

      [–]Okichah -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Isnt it mostly to trim the fat on the Ghazi stuff? They celebrate when anything ends up here because they want to troll and cause chaos. It'll be a good thing in the long run. Drama is a distraction.

      [–]dp101428 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Good job, they seem like good mods.

      [–]Wefee11 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

      The Link in Rule 11 is broken. its /r/ShitGhaziSays not "/r/ShitGhazi Says."

      [–]TheHat2[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

      Fixed it!

      [–]Wefee11 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Not even a minute. Good Job.

      [–]sanderpants 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Nothing in that post sounds like bad stuff in the wind to me.

      [–]MagicMangoMan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Thank you guys for taking the feedback into consideration, and congrats to the new mods!

      [–]nuketheweb 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Heavy is the hat the wears the hat.

      [–]Mournhold 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Good shit. Thanks for being open with everyone, hope that never changes. New mods look good and now I can stop whining about having a tag and filter. Everyone wins!

      [–]vonmonologue 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I just wanna say I support your decision regarding the ghazi/e-celeb posts. It's a fair-minded compromise.

      [–]camarougeYour games end where my Patreon begins -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I really don't get why people are so salty over rule 11. Do they also demand to be able to smoke indoors, everywhere they go?

      [–]korg_sp250 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      I have no issues with rule 11. Let Ghazi stuff be where it is unimportant, as it deserves to be, but certainly not censored.

      New mods ? I, for one, welcome our new mod overlords.

      [–]GambitsEnd -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Drama posts allowed to stay here... this makes me very sad. It's these kinds of posts that have reduced the frequency of which I visit KIA.

      [–]WonkyVulture -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

      Have to agree, though with rule 11 the mods should take it easy for awhile to promote the use of the other subreddits for a period of time to let people get used to it, then have a hard enforcement date after a reasonable period.