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[–]midnightcreature -7 ポイント-6 ポイント  (90子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

After an incident with a gun owning former friend of ours where he waved around a loaded handgun at a party we no longer associate with gun owners.

They do after all have a greater tendency towards violence.

[–]AnarchoHeathenEugene[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

After an incident with a gun owning former friend of ours where he waved around a loaded handgun at a party

That sounds like an incredibly irresponsible person.

we no longer associate with gun owners.

They do after all have a greater tendency towards violence.

All gun owners? I don't think that this is a very reasonable stance to take and I am not sure the evidence backs you on the last statement. I grew up with guns, all of my friends had guns, our school featured announcements every morning about where to take your guns to store them until after class(we had a skeet team), and none of those people, nor myself, are violent individuals. None of the gun owners in my family, extended included, are violent individuals(stupid yes, violent no).

Why judge all gun owners based on this incedent?

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Why judge all gun owners based on this incedent?

Because stereotyping people is fun!

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (27子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

They do after all have a greater tendency towards violence.

Source?

[–]midnightcreature -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (26子コメント)

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http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/20/us-gun-suicide-idUSBREA0J1G920140120

People may have heightened risks of dying from suicide and murder if they own or have access to a gun, according to a new analysis of previous research.

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (21子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Risk of dying from suicide and murder is not even remotely the same thing as "has a greater tendency toward violence."

The article does not support your statement. Try again.

But to respond to the article anyway, you are presuming a causal relationship that is not necessarily supported.

If we look at the murder scenario, you're arguing that owning a gun makes a person more likely to be murdered. I can just as reasonably argue that a person's likelihood to be murdered motivates them to arm themselves.

Similarly with suicide you're arguing that having a gun makes someone more likely to kill themselves. I can just as reasonably argue that wanting to kill oneself makes a person more likely to buy a gun.

Sidenote: Suicide is a terrible justification for restricting people's freedom. Exactly whose rights are violated by a person choosing to end their own life?

[–]midnightcreature -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (20子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Suicide and murder aren't violence...gun nutterese...suicide is a good thing.

Do you read what you write before you post or is your ego too big to do that? Why don't you try some critical thinking next time‽ Ok champ?

Sidenote: Suicide is a terrible justification for restricting people's freedom. Exactly whose rights are violated by a person choosing to end their own life?

That is just especially toxic, do you lack human empathy? Sidenote: You are encouraging the mentally ill to "Just Do It" because you like yer gunz. Am I supposed to take you seriously?

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (19子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

I didn't say that suicide and murder are not violence. Given the context of your original statement, saying "tendency toward violence" is a clear implication that you believe gun owners are more likely to COMMIT violence. The study does not support that conclusion. The study found that people who owned guns were more likely to be on the RECEIVING end of violence, whether self-inflicted or otherwise.

Furthermore, the correlation between gun ownership and violence is not necessarily causal, a point that you completely failed to address. If I live in a bad neighborhood with a high crime rate, and am therefore more likely to be the victim of murder, I'm going to be more inclined to want to arm myself. Saying that gun ownership is higher because of increased risk of murder is just as valid as your claim that murder is higher because people owned guns. Likewise with suicide, you're implying that owning a gun makes a person more likely to kill himself. It's just as valid to argue that a person who wants to kill himself is more likely to buy a gun than someone who doesn't.

If critical thinking is what you want, why don't you try it, and actually attempt to refute my points, instead of resorting to ad hominem.

That is just especially toxic, do you lack human empathy? Sidenote: You are encouraging the mentally ill to "Just Do It" because you like yer gunz. Am I supposed to take you seriously?

I have lots of empathy. I feel for people who have lost family members to suicide, and I feel for those tormented people who believed that was their only way out. However, I don't think that their choice to end their life is a valid justification for restricting anyone else's freedoms. Is it tragic? Absolutely. But how does that give anyone the right to govern the actions of others? I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything. I'm saying that one person's desire to hurt themselves does not give you the right to tell me what I can and can't buy.

[–]midnightcreature -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (18子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

So cite or STFU.

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (17子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Cite what? I'm using YOUR study to make arguments that are just as valid as those you are making. Correlation does not imply causation. Statistics 101.

Refute or STFU.

[–]midnightcreature -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (16子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Correlation does not imply causation

So either cite an opposing study or STFU with your cheap suppositions.

Sorry if I'm not going to accept your credentials and opinion of yourself online.

[–]syr_ark 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Wow. I'd just like to say that as someone with no stake in this thread, being a non gun owner to boot, and as someone who abhors violence and injustice in any form... you're coming off like a closed minded imbecile here.

If you want to promote critical thinking, you need to do some of it yourself. And if you want to discuss gun rights well, anything really, then maybe you shouldn't start by blindly demonizing anyone who dares to have a differing opinion.

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (14子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Dude, you're still not getting it, are you. What I'm saying is that your study doesn't even say what you think it does!

Refute ANYTHING that I've said, Mr. Critical Thinking!

[–]sharkbot 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

In other news: People may have a heightened risks of dying from drowning while swimming.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Yea the mainstream media never lies to promote their agenda.

[–]veryhairyberry -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Gun nutter and a conspiracy theorist, what are the odds?

I don't want to be part of any Cascadia that lets people like you have guns.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Yes, much it is much better to trust the 6 mega rich US media corporations, with strong ties to the federal government. They would never ever lie. I guess we should jump on their anti-civil rights bandwagon.

[–]veryhairyberry -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (59子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

I have a rifle in a cabin that I hunt with but I agree, anyone who has a handgun loaded at all times in their house in suburbia should be considered potentially dangerous themselves, I believe the suicide rate for handgun owners is much higher. I would never allow my children to be in a house with handguns that are just laying about or in drawers "in case" someone breaks in.

Those sort of people tend to be paranoid and delusional.

Handguns should be banned in any future Cascadia that I would want to be part of.

[–]AnarchoHeathenEugene[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (13子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

I think you are making some judgements that are unfounded.

as far as this

Handguns should be banned in any future Cascadia that I would want to be part of.

Good luck with that. A position like this carries a strong possibility of causing people to forgo supporting the idea of an independent cascadia all together.

[–]sharkbot 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Yep I would oppose Cascadia if gun ownership is banned.

[–][deleted] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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I would however also oppose Cascadia if many other things were banned, such as marijuana, hemp, pslocibin mushrooms, salvia divinia

and I would furthermore oppose it if certain things were allowed, such as medical insurance companies, central banks, police as they currently exist (major overhaul is needed), prisons as they currently exist, and certain protections for religious organizations (don't worry, I hate all gods equally ;) )

[–]sharkbot 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Yep I can agree with all that too.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

I would fight tooth and nail against anyone who would try to restrict my rights.

[–]anarchos 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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IMO, I feel that a "pro-gun" Casacadia would be a deal breaker for me. Guns are not banned in Canada (where I am from) but I enjoy being from a society where everyone isn't armed to the teeth. I have lived in Utah and Colorado in my past, and it's disconcerning the amount of people who think they need to be armed to feel safe. I want to live in a society where I don't need to be armed to feel secure.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

An anti-gun Cascadia would be a deal breaker for over 70% of the people who live here based on how badly the last anti-gun measure failed in WA.

Nice to see that you think that your feelings trump the rights of the people.

Being armed is part of being safe.

[–]veryhairyberry -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Well, I'm not going to part of a nation that allows handguns.

[–]AnarchoHeathenEugene[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Why?

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[–]AnObviousAutonomistDrysider -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I 100% second that!! I'll even send ye a post card of a waterfall. Seriously.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Maybe New York or Failifornia would be more your speed.

[–]Antares333 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Time to move to China!!!

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (25子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Someone who "has a handgun loaded at all times in their house in suburbia" is not the same as someone who has "handguns that are just laying about or in drawers "in case" someone breaks in."

Handguns should be banned in any future Cascadia that I would want to be part of.

So if someone does break into your house (with a gun, since we all know how likely to follow a gun ban criminals are likely to be) what exactly is your plan? Call the cops and hope that the guy doesn't shoot you during the 6 minutes it takes the cops to arrive?

Those sort of people tend to be paranoid and delusional.

What you call paranoid and delusional, I call recognizant of the reality that the world is not necessarily a safe place. Exactly whose responsibility do you think it is to keep your family safe? The government's? Really? The same government whose highest court ruled that police have absolutely ZERO legal obligation to protect people? So again, whose responsibility is it to provide for your family's safety? Or would you prefer to live in a fantasyland where crime doesn't happen?

[–]dandelusional 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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Surely the better solution there is to fix the culture that means people do not feel safe in their society, rather than accept the failings of your current government as 'the way things are' and jump into a private arms race?

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

It's not the culture that makes people feel unsafe - it's the fact that they AREN'T. Crime will always exist, and as long as it does, people will have the right to defend against it.

Even if the police WERE legally obligated to protect people, they lack the ABILITY to do so, because they simply can't be everywhere.

Lastly, people feelings aren't the issue. Actually BEING safe is a more fundamental need than FEELING safe. Therefore, it's my position that no one has the right to dictate actual safety to others, based on their feelings.

[–]veryhairyberry -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (22子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

No, I prefer to live in a country where people aren't paranoid and delusional.

Your paranoid and delusional rant demonstrates exactly the sort of people who should not own guns. Please don't in a moment of desperation kill yourself and your family because you had a bad day like so many other gun owners before you. I own a rifle that I use 3-4 days a year that is locked up the rest of the time. I bet you have a handgun in every room, don't you?

You are more likely to kill yourself or your family then save them, that is what I have a problem with.

[–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Just because a statistic says that people who live in a house with a gun owner are more likely to kill themselves or be killed by the owner than those in gun free homes doesn't mean what you might think.

A large number of those cases involved people who knowingly purchased guns for the purpose of committing murder or suicide, people who would jump through the necessary hoops to acquire a gun legally if more restrictions were added, since those are premeditated actions towards a premeditated killing. Furthermore, they would be able to get them from black market sources quite easily. A receiver for an AK-47 can literally be hammered out of a shovel (a project I have some interest in doing, actually, though I will go through the appropriate legal channels to do so) and regardless of how many people willingly disarm themselves or their friends and relatives through buyback programs, the volume of firearms in this country dictates that a black market would persist for decades, because if even as few as 10% are not turned in, you'd be looking at a few million firearms floating around unaccounted for, possibly tens of millions. Disarming the US would not be like disarming the UK.

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (16子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

What is it with folks like you, and the complete inability to refute points without going off the rails into ad hominem land?

What's your plan if someone breaks in? Gonna call the cops and pray that the bad guy doesn't mean you harm? Or are you just assuming that will never happen to you? If that works for you, fine, but don't presume to dictate to others what must work for them!

Please don't in a moment of desperation kill yourself and your family because you had a bad day like so many other gun owners before you.

Congratulations on a completely ridiculous generalization. How many people do this versus how many gun owners are there?

I bet you have a handgun in every room, don't you?

Nope, I have a very modest collection and every single gun is either locked up or on my person at all times.

You are more likely to kill yourself or your family then save them, that is what I have a problem with.

Well get over it, because that's between me and my family. Not you. Also, the study you're referring to was incredibly flawed.

[–]dandelusional 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

What's your plan if someone breaks in? Gonna call the cops and pray that the bad guy doesn't mean you harm? Or are you just assuming that will never happen to you? If that works for you, fine, but don't presume to dictate to others what must work for them!

I'm not the person you're replying to, but broadly speaking my plan here would be to do my best to live in a culture where:

  1. There are sufficient social services so that everyone is able to live a comfortable life without having to resort to breaking and entering.
  2. There is not endemic violence with readily available firearms, so that should someone break into my house the risk of them having such a weapon is greatly reduced

This can be achieved by both moving to a location that better fits these criteria, and working to change the place you currently live.

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

There are sufficient social services so that everyone is able to live a comfortable life without having to resort to breaking and entering.

So...fantasy-land. Got it.

There is not endemic violence with readily available firearms, so that should someone break into my house the risk of them having such a weapon is greatly reduced

And your likelihood of having one is nil. Play probabilities with your own life all you want. Don't presume to play the odds with mine.

This can be achieved by both moving to a location that better fits these criteria, and working to change the place you currently live.

I'm pretty sure that your criteria is pretty firmly in "pipe dream" territory. Good luck though.

[–]RiseCascadia -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (13子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

What's your plan if someone breaks in? Gonna call the cops and pray that the bad guy doesn't mean you harm?

If you're pretty sure someone is coming to kill you, that should tell you something is wrong. Maybe you should work on making fewer enemies, or (more likely) reevalute whether those people actually want to kill you at all. Your average burglar cases a house and waits for the people to leave. This isn't Somalia.

TL;DR you probably watch too many films.

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (12子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

What if I told you that 3 months ago, I was the victim of a home invasion where I was robbed and pistol whipped, and my girlfriend was raped while our child slept nearby?

Did that happen to me? No. But it did happen to these people.

When you act like bad things don't actually happen, you look like a complete asshole.

[–]RiseCascadia -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

What if I told you that a few years ago I was in a building when terrorists hijacked a plane and crashed it into my office? It didn't happen to me, of course, but it happened to like 3000 other people, so I should live in constant fear of it happening to me! /s

I don't envy you. The world must look like such a terrifying place through your eyes.

[–]juiceboxzeroSeattle 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (10子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

You would do well to not mistake acknowledgement of reality and doing what I can to prepare for it for fear.

I'm not afraid of someone breaking into my house because I know that a) it's unlikely, and b) if it happens, I've done what I can to protect myself and my family.

Preparing for things > acting like they don't happen.

[–]RiseCascadia -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Perhaps it makes you feel better to live in your movie hero fantasy, but here's a reality you should acknowledge:

The people in your example were pistol whipped and raped. I'm guessing they were unarmed. Had they been armed, there's a much better chance they would both have been shot dead.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Paranoid and Delusional? You mean like thinking that an inanimate object causes violence and murder ?

[–]veryhairyberry -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

No I mean like knowing that gun owners are more likely to kill themselves, their friends, and their family than "save the day" in their paranoid and delusional manchildtopian fantasies of revenge violence. I was a 13 year old boy too with dreams of being a superhero too, and like most people I grew out of that phase.

Guns should be granted solely for the purpose of hunting and sport shooting. There is no such thing as a right to a gun, it is a privilege.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

All human beings have a right to armed self defense, no amount of democratic party talking points, or loaded studies will change that.

[–]AnObviousAutonomistDrysider -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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As long as they issue tags for statists, politicians, totalitarians, and bootlickers, I may be persuaded towards your position. But is that hunting or sport?

Please read a goddamned history book!?

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Worse than the gun banner is the fudd, who will gladly sell out his fellow gunowners as long as he can have a government licence to go "git his durr."

Cascadia needs strong men and women, not bootlickers who tow the line of the current administration. Perhaps you would be more happy in New York State. The least coast already has the laws you want.

[–]veryhairyberry -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (6子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Cascadia needs those who believe in the rule of law, not rule of the gun.

Perhaps your kind would be more welcome in a place like Somalia; because I would rather stay American than be a Cascadian with you.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Oh wow the somalia fallacy, how enlightened of you.

Don't worry about being a Cascadian with me, clearly you never were one, the world you want to live in already exist on the other side of The Rockies.

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

-- Samuel Adams

[–]NAP4LIFE 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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These librrul retards need to be taught a lesson.

[–]WestinHemlockSeattle 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

Perhaps you could use a spelling lesson, besides they aren't liberals in the traditional sense. The hard authoritarianism of the gun banner is contrary to the libertine values of both the Americans and French revolutions. they do not believe in equality, freedom and brotherhood but that there should be an armed state with supreme authority over the body politic. Of course this state would exist to enforce the will of the majority over the minority, what could possibly go wrong.

P.S. Would you please indicate if they are mental, physical, or social retards?

[–]NAP4LIFE 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Let's be honest, we are going to have to violently resist these liberals wherever they try to use democracy to destroy liberty.

Democracy is two sheeps and wolf fighting over eachother.

[–][deleted] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Down on liberals all you want, but refrain from ableist slurs.

[–]veryhairyberry -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

ごめんなさい。これは既にアーカイブしてあり、もう投票はできません。

So a bunch of hand waving and a libertarian quote, well, that is pretty pathetic.