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[–]figgycal 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (36子コメント)

This is a great article. I especially like what the writer said about those that believe we should be republishing these cartoons.

We should be tactful of innocent Muslims who had nothing to do with any of this. Running offensive pictures of their prophet and turning him into a joke or a terrorist or whatever; insulting them and putting them on the defensive is not a great way to make them see the errors of their ways. It's harassment to the people that had nothing to do with this attack. But are receiving it as some sort of punishment for being associated with them via religion.

There's no way people would be asking to put these pictures upfront and center if not for the growing hatred of Islam in the West.

[–]TaylorS1986Socialist Alternative/CWI 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I hate people who feel compelled to be offensive and shocking as possible because they get a sick pleasure from getting people pissed off and because it lets them feel all morally righteous as defenders of "free speech" in the eyes of our decadent Capitalist society.

[–]TheRummy -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hate people who feel compelled to be offensive and shocking

Ok, so what? http://i.imgur.com/3jRQ2fa.jpg

[–]pace122004 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

you are against the literal definition of revolution, when things become stagnant, pot stirring becomes the catalyst of change...

[–]TaylorS1986Socialist Alternative/CWI 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Wait, you are equating trying to incite social revolution with incing religious sectarian BS?

[–]TheRummy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wait so printing offensive cartoons somehow incites religious sectarian BS more so then shooting and killing the cartoonists?

[–]pace122004 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't know how you got that from what I said... and I don't think incing is a word.

[–]TaylorS1986Socialist Alternative/CWI 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I meaning inciting.

[–]TheRummy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

How is it harassment? The only reason the offensive pictures are being made is precisely because extremist threaten to kill anyone who does it. There are plenty of offensive pictures and cartoons of all sorts of deities, why aren't they shown as much as they are? Because their followers aren't attempting to censor them as much as Islamic extremists.

Most Muslims don't draw pictures of Mohammed, but they couldn't care less if others do. They might think it's stupid and offensive, but it's easy enough to go about their day because the people drawing the images aren't muslim, they aren't bound by the same religious ruling. The average Jew doesn't care if others write the word god or work on the Sabath.

The only people that care are the extremists, and those are exactly the people we shouldn't be appeasing. There is a distinct difference between re-printing these cartoons as defiance of censorship and actually harassing innocent muslims by conflating their views with an extremist minority.

Charlie Hebdo wasn't afraid to mock the far right in the same vain they weren't afraid to mock extremist theologists.

[–]hotrodxgolgotha 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

How is it harassment? The only reason the offensive pictures are being made is precisely because extremist threaten to kill anyone who does it. There are plenty of offensive pictures and cartoons of all sorts of deities, why aren't they shown as much as they are? Because their followers aren't attempting to censor them as much as Islamic extremists.

I disagree. The offensive pictures are being created and publicized because they play into an imperialist narrative which justifies oppression of muslims in the middle east and northern africa, typically ethnic Arabs, to serve the interests of western elites. Ignorant racist French (and British and American) audiences like to consume and spread these images because it makes them feel good about how their society and culture is more just and civilized than that of these muslims, which conveniently lends right wing hawks support for wars and occupations in the geostrategic circlejerk of neocolonial politics. It's a very effective strategy. Kick dirt in the face of the oppressed until they inevitably react with violence, play up this violence in the media, and then ride the wave of popular anger to war and up the political hierarchy.

Most Muslims don't draw pictures of Mohammed, but they couldn't care less if others do. They might think it's stupid and offensive, but it's easy enough to go about their day because the people drawing the images aren't muslim, they aren't bound by the same religious ruling. The average Jew doesn't care if others write the word god or work on the Sabath.

No argument there. We definitely should not be collectively punishing muslims around the world for the crimes of murderers. I hope those who eventually judge the west for the crimes committed in our name show the same compassion.

The only people that care are the extremists, and those are exactly the people we shouldn't be appeasing. There is a distinct difference between re-printing these cartoons as defiance of censorship and actually harassing innocent muslims by conflating their views with an extremist minority.

correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're implying here that the vast majority of Muslims are not offended by the reprinting of these cartoons. You are probably right, but consider this: spreading the cartoon might be exactly what these extremists want. It supports their basic argument that Muslim culture and sensibilities are stepped on at every turn by western governments, and will serve to further radicalize the marginalized Muslim populations specifically in Europe. Not only do we undermine self determination in the middle east by supporting coups and installing corrupt leaders subservient to foreign governments and corporations, drop bombs on civilians from the skies, support the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and pass laws restricting Muslim religious expression among immigrant communities, but we also do all of this with righteous indignation at the depravity of their culture while saying that it's our moral duty to defend ourselves from the barbarity of their acts. An argument like that can sound like a good reason to go to war against the west to a poor young Muslim man living in a Paris ghetto.

Charlie Hebdo wasn't afraid to mock the far right in the same vain they weren't afraid to mock extremist theologists.

I think you are coming at this from a bourgeois philosophical perspective. We need to understand this situation in its historical and material context. Who has the most to gain and lose here? Who is in power and who is dispossessed? Without this perspective it is easy to fall into the trap of victim blaming.

[–]TheRummy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We need to understand this situation in its historical and material context. Who has the most to gain and lose here?

Historical and material context provides and explanation of why, it hardly excuses acts of terror or makes shooting up cartoonists somehow acceptable.

it is easy to fall into the trap of victim blaming.

The victims of this attack are the Charlie Hebdo, the people this thread seems to want to put the blame on squarely.

[–]sasspot -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Does pissing off extremists, while ignoring the conditions which breed extremism, do anything remotely positive for social change? Or is it shitty jingoism?

[–]TheRummy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Or maybe it's neither? I sincerely doubt not printing satirical images of Mohammed would somehow make extremists any less pissed, but it certainly would make our society less free. I'm sure you would be OK with pissing off fascists with satirical images, so why should take away someones ability to piss off religious theocrats?

Why would any socialist wish not to piss off a group of people that want to form a caliphate? Because moderate Muslims would rather live in a society that has the ability to make fun of Mohammed then an extremist caliphate, it's not average Muslims that are being pissed off by these images.

Most muslims and mosques have come out to condemn the attacks and, even though they think the images are offensive and stupid, support Charlie Hebdo's right to print the photos. So who are you trying to defend with your position?

Edit: And to answer your question, yes it does do something remotely positive for social change. I don't care what your religion is, you shouldn't kill someone for being offensive and idiotic. The only reasons CH printed those photos was precisely because they were threatened with death if they did.

A lot of people in this thread are confusing the causes of extremist actions and attitudes with an excuse for extremist actions and attitudes.

[–]sasspot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

As a socialist I am a believer in fighting a class war, not a culture war. I don't think making fun of an oppressed groups religion is a useful way of achieving substantive social change. I would argue that they printed the images because they wanted to make more money.

[–]TheRummy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

And thats fine, but they still have every right to print the cartoons regardless of whether or not we think they are useful/ distasteful/ offensive/ whatever.

[–]sasspot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'd say that drawing the line at hate speech sometimes might be reasonable, especially when intentional goading is occurring. What are some of the problems of not allowing publications to print racist hate mongering rubbish?