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Radical Muslim vs. Radical Christian (adam4d.com)

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[–]Old_Shul -14 ポイント-13 ポイント  (54子コメント)

No, these guys are the Radical Christians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan

[–]SufferingLeafsFan 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (1子コメント)

People can say they are anything they want to be, doesnt mean that they are. I appreciate the time and effort you put into lumping the KKK in with Christians as well as that psychopath from Norway though, really gets your point across that you don't like actual christian people.

[–]Ruleof2Moderate Conservative -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"people can say they are anything they want to be, doesn't mean that they are." A moderate muslim could say the same about Isis.

[–]EngineerDaveGoldwater Conservative 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

People make these claims, or associate the Westboro Baptist Church with radical Islam. The main difference though is that 99.9999% of Christians will openly denounce those groups Where you are lucky to get anywhere near that who denounce radical Islam from the Muslim faith. Muslims used to be the culture of civility, science, math and education, well respected by Christians who faced them on the battle field during the crusades. Now it's regressed to the point to where the lowest common denominator is what the world perceives as the image for the religion. Why is that? People don't assume that Westboro baptist church speaks for all Christians, yet associate extremist with Islam. For some reason the militant side has gained a foothold.

[–]PhilosoGuidoConstitutionalist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

A good 30% (to be generous) of Muslims believe that extremist actions like honor killings, suicide bombings, and death to non believers are justified. In a religion of 1.2 billion or more, that is hundreds of millions of people who are ok with these vile acts even if they might not personally commit them. That is a huge problem. Not a couple of wackos in some obscure cult in sub-saharan Africa. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

[–]Ruleof2Moderate Conservative -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

A lot of those people are also from developing countries, where they have less education and those things are a part of their culture. You can't assume that those people are ok with horrible things because they are muslim, especially when there are so many more factors that may have effected the beliefs those people have.

[–]bosshawkConstitutionalist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The kkk was anti catholic.

[–]zenontherocks 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Are they? Or are they just some crazy loons who happen to be Christian? There's certainly not enough of them to keep entire regions of the world in constant turmoil. Most of the time if people are complaining about Christians, its because they're getting preachy about their beliefs, not because there's a bunch of them out killing innocents.

[–]-PM_ME_UR_BOOBS- 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Are they? Or are they just some crazy loons who happen to be Christian religious? There's certainly not enough of them to keep entire regions of the world in constant turmoil.

FTFY - I could have put Muslim or Jewish or black or nerd or anything else there.

You can be as conservative as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that any religion has the potential to be the justification for behavior that otherwise would be classified as mental illness.

[–]SirPounceTheThird -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

You do have groups like the Lords Resistance Army who want to set up a theocratic Christian state.

EDIT: Why all the downvotes? He asked for an example of a violent Christianist group and I gave him one. Doesn't mean I don't agree with the predicate that Muslims tend to be much more violent than members of other religions.

[–]moanerific 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I've never heard of them, but how often do they go around shooting and beheading innocent people?

[–]SirPounceTheThird 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Literally all the time. They do murder, beheadings, child abduction/sex slavery. The whole shebang.

[–]moanerific 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Huh. I honestly didn't know that was Kony's group. You really don't deserve your downvotes for that.

[–]chabanaisSi vis pacem, para bellum. 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Sounds like a great band name.

[–]SirPounceTheThird -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kony and the LRA... I could see it.

[–]ManOfTheInBetweenConservative[S] 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Anders Breivik considered himself a "cultural Christian" not a genuinely converted "born-again" Christian. In fact in his manifesto he cited doubts about God's existence and said he never even prayed.

As for anti-abortion violence, that's extremely rare. And you can hardly think those KKK schmucks are genuine Christians, more like racists who pretend faith yet don't actually follow God's commandments (love your neighbor).

[–]Old_Shul 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

As for anti-abortion violence, that's extremely rare

So what? This does not prove that "Christian radicals" are really just nice people who just want to preach to you. It means that Christian radicals are just as violent, but there's just fewer of them

[–]ManOfTheInBetweenConservative[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Another difference that you're missing is that Christians who murder abortion doctors do so because they believe they're responsible for countless murders, whereas Muslim terrorists kill because their religion is a death-ideology. Further, Christians who murder abortionists are violating their religion (thou shall not murder) whereas Muslim killers are actually following their supremacist religion perfectly (fight or kill non-believers).

[–]Old_Shul -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't think you can generalize like that. Some Christians have killed because they believe that G-d told them to kill. (I'll post examples if you need them)

Islam is also a bit more mixed. AFAIK, the Koran says that "People of the book" (i.e. Christians and Jews) should be allowed to live, but be heavily taxed - hardly fair, but not exactly "kill all the infidels". Christianity, on the other hand has no such prescriptions, and thus Jews were arguably treated worse in Christian Europe than in the Muslim world for much of history. It's only in the last 50 years or so (now that Israel has been established and the history of blood libel, ghettos, pogroms and the holocaust has been brushed under the rug by Christians) that Christian Europe can really claim to be less anti-Semitic than muslims.

Many Christians, after all, believe that Jews are "Christ killers". Hence christian anti-semitic violence was actually following Christian beliefs, while Muslim anti-semitic violence is contrary to their beliefs.

[–]bllasaeLibertarian Conservative 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You don't have to be even religious to be against abortion, and the KKK has roots in Christianity, but you don't have to be Christian.

[–]IlseGardens 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (9子コメント)

  • "I'm not going to pretend I'm a very religious person, as that would be a lie"
  • Yes anti abortion violence exists but once again is nowhere near the level of violence committed by Muslim extremists and your evidence of attacks goes back into the 80s and has killed at max 100 people whereas you could directly link 100 deaths to Islam in the past month.
  • Extremely broad and includes murders hundreds of years ago.
  • The Klu Klux Klan is not primarily focused on religion, although it is Protestant it is focused most on race so religion is not the driving motive.
    Most of these do not match up in any way to the extremism of Muslims, which has rewritten entire borders in recent years and caused entire standing armies to be raised, forget 20 guys in ghost outfits shouting about black people.

[–]jalepenoConservative -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Saying the kkk isn't reliogous but Protestant is a cop out. I would say they represent Christianity about as well as bin laden represented Muslims.

[–]PhilosoGuidoConstitutionalist 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

What verses of the Bible do they use to justify their acts? I can give you plenty from the Koran that would justify Bin Laden. What percentage of Christians worldwide support these acts? What percentage of Muslims support violent jihad, honor killings, etc? There is a big difference

[–]jalepenoConservative -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

The majority of devout christains I have met will admit they have not read the bible. There are an abundance of versus that support rape, murder, and worse. It is hardly a book of peace. I have read the book twice. It has a bunch of good stories and good morals also, but that isn't all it contains

[–]PhilosoGuidoConstitutionalist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I noticed that you conspicuously failed to mention any specific verses to support your assertions. Is it because you don't actually know of any or because you know how easily they would be debunked?

[–]jalepenoConservative -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

i don't know any by heart but i am damn good at google. Im selecting a few at random out of hundreds of possibilities

murder:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

Rape

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)

other fun

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3)

There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. (Ezekiel 23:20) (my personal favorite)

"You Ethiopians will also be slaughtered by my sword," says the LORD. And the LORD will strike the lands of the north with his fist. He will destroy Assyria and make its great capital, Nineveh, a desolate wasteland, parched like a desert. The city that once was so proud will become a pasture for sheep and cattle. All sorts of wild animals will settle there. Owls of many kinds will live among the ruins of its palaces, hooting from the gaping windows. Rubble will block all the doorways, and the cedar paneling will lie open to the wind and weather. This is the fate of that boisterous city, once so secure. "In all the world there is no city as great as I," it boasted. But now, look how it has become an utter ruin, a place where animals live! Everyone passing that way will laugh in derision or shake a defiant fist. (Zephaniah 2:12-15)

idk how you can debunk the work of the lord. sounds awfully blasphemous to me.

[–]PhilosoGuidoConstitutionalist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So, you admit that you just copied and pasted a bunch of passages without applying any thought or reason to them. Are any of them applicable to only a specific time or place, or to a dispensation that no longer exists and is superseded by a new covenant in the Bible? Yes, they all are. You are taking descriptions of historical events, laws of a Jewish theocracy (Deuteronomy and Leviticus), and descriptions of God's judgment completely out of context, some of them quite deceitfully. Under Christianity, there is no longer a Jewish theocracy, so those laws don't apply just as many other tenets of Judaism no longer apply such as sacrifices and ritual cleansing. The commands to destroy a city or people were for those specific people at that specific time in history, just as God used other peoples such as the Babylonians as implements of his judgment against the Jews for their disobedience. This is a feeble attempt to twist the text, and the clincher is that these actions are not practiced in Christianity and never were. We read that in the appropriate historical context. No one makes the absurd claim that Christianity supports sacrifices and ritual cleansing, but the militant atheists and secular progressives use the same tactic to try and pull these type of cherry picked verses out of context and tie them to Christianity in order to push the moral equivalency farce. Nice try, you have shown that there are descriptions of violence in the Bible, (no one disputes that), but completely failed to tie them to Christianity.

[–]jalepenoConservative 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

hey I'm just repeating the word of god. god was a bad dude. many people have been raped, killed, and harmed due to your bible and you are in denial to think otherwise.

[–]ultimisConstitutionalist 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

90% of Americans are "Christian". Based on the logic I see being used every person or group who happens to do a bad thing is equivalent to Muslims doing bad things in the name of their religion and being endorsed by a significant number more.

The goal of the KKK for instance had no religious motivation. They were not attacking blacks because the bible stated so. They did not yell "For Jesus!" as they committed their vile acts. They had zero religious goals in mind.

[–]CaptainPaintball 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The numbers and ratio are FAR too small for this to be anything like what you claim.

[–]Chimneyfish 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree with Bill Maher's frustration at this being an issue that makes otherwise smart people cling to completely dumb ideas. People will claim that just as many Christians are a threat to peace in the world today as Muslims, and then point to the Crusades from 700 years ago or the eight total people killed by anti-abortion violence as evidence. Somebody on MSNBC compared Jerry Falwell suing Hustler to the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

The side that supposedly prides itself on being The Party of Nuanced Intellectualism refuses to recognize any difference in scale or frequency on this issue. The only Correct answer is that all religious extremism is equally troublesome and it is impossible to differentiate anything beyond that.

[–]Old_Shul -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

People will claim that just as many Christians are a threat to peace in the world today as Muslims

I did not say that! Do not put words in my mouth!

I don't think there are just as many Christian radicals as Muslim radicals. What I do think is that Christian radicals (i.e. the few Christian radicals that do exist) can be just as violent. There's just fewer of them.

The problem with this cartoon is pretending that there are NO violent christian radicals. The cartoon claims that "Christian radicals" are really just nice people who want to preach to you. This is clearly not true!

[–]Chimneyfish 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I didn't put words in your mouth- my response was to the post under yours. I was adding to what somebody else had said about differences in scale and ratio.

I'm glad you don't take this position yourself, but I hope you will agree that I was accurate when I said that it's a position that some people do in fact take. If you ask them whether Muslims or Christians are more violent, they will refuse to concede any difference whatsoever.

I also don't think there's anything inherently wrong with generalizations as long as they are accurate. I'm not religious so I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems fair to say that, generally speaking, Christians in the world today practice religion more tolerantly than Muslims.

[–]Old_Shul -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Since you apparently were not smart enough to get my point, let me spell it out for you:

Christian radicals are just as violent as muslim radicals.

True, there are fewer Christian radicals than muslim radicals (these days, anyway). But it isn't as if Christian radicals are really just nice people who want to preach to you. Christian radicals are just as violent - there's just fewer of them.

[–]PhilosoGuidoConstitutionalist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

there are fewer Christian radicals than muslim radicals

So using actual numbers, if less than say 0.01% of Christians are violent radicals and something like 30% of Muslims are, there might be a reason to statistically reject the so called "Christian radicals" as outliers that are unrepresentative of the faith, but still say that Islam has a systemic violence problem?

I mean, if you were doing a statistical analysis of something non controversial like jet engine parts manufacturing you would. If one manufacturer were producing Six Sigma level quality control and the other had a 30% failure rate only a complete moron would try and equate the two. This argument is absurd, disingenuous, and requires a total suspension of thought and a divorce from reality. It is a pathetic attempt to pander and excuse a group that has a real systemic problem.

[–]CainsMutiny 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lies come in so many different forms.

[–]chabanaisSi vis pacem, para bellum. -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Pretty much.

[–]ultimisConstitutionalist -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"For Jesus! Die nonbelievers!"

I think there are confused people about association and condemnation.