[V20] Impressions

[Propagandor]

So a good number of people have the book already, what do you think?

I've been busy this weekend so I haven't got a chance to go through everything but the production values are very high, I was surprised to see no in character fiction in the book beyond a few quotes, and while it has all the clans, bloodlines and disciplines such it doesnt really explain them much frex the Harbingers of Skulls are included but not explained beyond mentions of them being recent additions to the sabath and hating the giovanni

[Holden]

I love it. Book is gorgeous. I think it's my favorite incarnation of the game thus far.

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

The lack of a two-page spread on the Tal'Mahe'Ra is keenly felt. Also, Awakening of the Steel, eww -- there are better Dur-An-Ki paths to toss in there than that! Also also, Leif Jones? No Josh Timbrook, but Leif Jones?

(I've been a Leif Jones anti-fan since the splat art in Guide to the Technocracy.)

These are all serious complaints, by the way. I'm not joking. But the fact that they are the most serious complaints I can level against it... it's a good-looking .pdf. I like the product. It's well-constructed, and Holden's right, probably my favorite incarnation of Vampire as well. I'm looking forward to my hardcopies arriving.

[Arachne]

Also also, Leif Jones? No Josh Timbrook, but Leif Jones?

(I've been a Leif Jones anti-fan since the splat art in Guide to the Technocracy.)Leif Jones? Ugh.

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

I should probably mention that it's some of the best Leif Jones splat art I've ever seen, but I haven't decided whether that counts as damning with faint praise or not. I would very much like this thread not to turn into a Leif Jones hate-in or a big argument about his relative merits, however.

[Holden]

The worst thing about the book is probably the Lasombra 2-page illo, which is a fairly impressive example of basic anatomy fail. Her boobs go down to her waist.

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

The worst thing about the book is probably the Lasombra 2-page illo, which is a fairly impressive example of basic anatomy fail. Her boobs go down to her waist.

Toreador is adorable, though.

[BedlamBoy]

Ugh, great... Now I'm imagining Vampire: The Masquerade as illustrated by Rob Liefeld. :)

Seriously, though, I'm deeply jealous of the people who have this book. I'm having to wait for POD and PDF (and hopefully some spare cash) to get my grubby paws on this beauty. I have one question, though -- can someone clarify the Gangrel weakness? I thought I read someone say that the animal features are now temporary? I'm starting a Masquerade game this week, and I'd love to give the Gangrel PC a weakness that's less fail that the Revised one.

[Holden]

I would say probably my favorite rule clean-up is the new Toreador weakness. It's a very elegant polish-up of what's always been kind of an eye-rolling, silly weakness. Now it feels right, and it's more gameplay-friendly (you don't have to just sit out the scene while your character stares at a lighting installation).

[Holden]

Ugh, great... Now I'm imagining Vampire: The Masquerade as illustrated by Rob Liefeld. :)

Seroiusly, though, I'm deeply jealous of the people who have this book. I'm having to wait for POD and PDF (and hopefully some spare cash) to get my grubby paws on this beauty. I have one question, though -- can someone clarify the Gangrel weakness? I thought I read someone say that the animal features are now temporary? I'm starting a Masquerade game this week, and I'd love to give the Gangrel PC a weakness that's less fail that the Revised one.

Every time you frenzy, you pick up a temporary animalistic feature. This can be physical (cat eyes, musk, digitigrade feet), or behavioral (compulsion to gorge while feeding and then sleep, compulsive circling of chairs before sitting down in them, whatever)—the mechanical repercussions are up to the Storyteller. The feature changes after every frenzy. Rarely, and completely at the Storyteller's discretion, after a particularly brutal or life-changing frenzy, you might end up stuck with a feature permanently, in which case you start picking up a new temporary feature on top of that permanent addition.

[LeftWingPenguin]

I'm intrigued by this, but from their website it looks like the opportunity to order a copy ran out in July. Are they going to be re-printing it at any point?

[Holden]

It will be available through the Now in Print program later, and of course you can get the PDF.

[BedlamBoy]

Every time you frenzy, you pick up a temporary animalistic feature. This can be physical (cat eyes, musk, digitigrade feet), or behavioral (compulsion to gorge while feeding and then sleep, compulsive circling of chairs before sitting down in them, whatever)—the mechanical repercussions are up to the Storyteller. The feature changes after every frenzy. Rarely, and completely at the Storyteller's discretion, after a particularly brutal or life-changing frenzy, you might end up stuck with a feature permanently, in which case you start picking up a new temporary feature on top of that permanent addition.

Forgive me if I'm asking too much, but how long does the animal feature last after a frenzy? Until the next frenzy?

[Propagandor]

Forgive me if I'm asking too much, but how long does the animal feature last after a frenzy? Until the next frenzy?

It doesn't say actually, I think its left in the hands of the ST

[IanWatson]

The worst thing about the book is probably the Lasombra 2-page illo, which is a fairly impressive example of basic anatomy fail. Her boobs go down to her waist.

Not unheard of (http://i.imgur.com/RDrhj.jpg). Although if that's supposed to be Lucita, then yes, it breaks with her established physique.


I'm intrigued by this, but from their website it looks like the opportunity to order a copy ran out in July. Are they going to be re-printing it at any point?

There were two copies available to preorder: This one (http://vonaether.imgur.com/V20) from the Grand Masquerade, and a more general release which has not yet shown up, which is identical but with a different cover (I suspect an embossed rose).

For everyone else, the $30 PDF will gain general release soon (it's currently being made available free to everyone who preordered), and it will be available through DriveThru's Now In Print program. Last I heard, it'll be available both as a single black-and-white volume, or two full-colour volumes. Their POD printer can only handle colour books up to about 450 colour pages, and V20's 528 pages long, so splitting it is their only option for people who want colour.

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

Forgive me if I'm asking too much, but how long does the animal feature last after a frenzy? Until the next frenzy?

Until the next frenzy.

It's sort of unclear, but that's what I took away from it.

[Yo! Master]

Not unheard of (http://i.imgur.com/RDrhj.jpg). Although if that's supposed to be Lucita, then yes, it breaks with her established physique.


Hmm...

http://spillklubben.samfunnet.no/Rollespill/Vampire/grafikk/Timbrook_Lucita.gif

(The Rev. corebook Lucita illustration for the Lasombra write-up)

[Skywalker]

My impressions of V20 is that its like a big empty email inbox. :D

[Elvish Lore]

So a good number of people have the book already, what do you think?

I've been busy this weekend so I haven't got a chance to go through everything but the production values are very high, I was surprised to see no in character fiction in the book beyond a few quotes, and while it has all the clans, bloodlines and disciplines such it doesnt really explain them much frex the Harbingers of Skulls are included but not explained beyond mentions of them being recent additions to the sabath and hating the giovanni

No in-character fiction? It doesn't over explain everything?!

WIN! I really hated those two things in just about every xWoD product that ever indulged in it. The fiction was almost always badly written and in terms of the overall text, White Wolf always took the opportunity to explain in 2 pages what they could have explained in 2 paragraphs.

I'm looking forward to the pdf even more now.

[Elvish Lore]

For everyone else, the $30 PDF will gain general release soon (it's currently being made available free to everyone who preordered), and it will be available through DriveThru's Now In Print program. Last I heard, it'll be available both as a single black-and-white volume, or two full-colour volumes. Their POD printer can only handle colour books up to about 450 colour pages, and V20's 528 pages long, so splitting it is their only option for people who want colour.

i.e. it's a massive book that's just made to be read and referenced on an iPad. :)

[BaronSamedi]

I like it a lot overall.

The more 2e feel for the Independent Clans I am less a fan of...we got the Assamites into something cool, complex, and into a space where an all Assamite chronicle could be really fun and cool, and they are back to ASSASSIN! Unknown must not be pleased, since I recall back in the day every time you said Assamites were assassins he would appear to correct you...I swear he had google "Assamite Assassin" open and kept refreshing. Followers of Set in places away from their clan area discuss their trade in secrets and guardianship of mystic and forgotten places well, but the main splat is all about corrupting people, which is AN element, but not the only as of Revised, and to me the least interesting by far. Ravnos are not as bad but the Indian parts of the clan are referenced, not front and center. I realize what they were going for, but Revised made the Independent Clans cool and interesting, not just villain of the week, while V20 seems to move them back to villain of the week status. Finally, I do not like all the powers in Obeah pushed up a level. That sucked, and I am having to HR it when I run to keep the peace with the wife. Unburdening the Bestial Soul is sorta the Salubri signature power. Making it a level 6 was an insanely bad idea IMHO.

That's my legit complaint. Less legit, Revised introduced a lot of cool and interesting Blood Magic. Almost none of it is here. We get Koldunic Sorcery, but none of the cool Ahku or Dur-An-Ki, or Wanga. That said, what this means is if you buy V20, go ahead and buy Blood Magic and Blood Sacrifice. Cool systems, it adds a lot to a chronicle, and almost none of it will be repeats (Kuldon Paths and about half the necromancy rituals in BM, nothing from BS. Note no Thaum from BM made it). Oddly, they did not repeat the Mortuus path from GttS, I have no idea why. It's pretty much the Cappadocian signature Path. It feels like an odd omission.

ETA: Despite these complaints, I Really Like The Book It is good and I am enjoying the hell out of it. I can run the Indies like I always have and honestly the rev stuff is not gone, just absent from the main splat page people will go to to learn about the clan. I have Rev books so missing blood magic is not problem and as I said, it would take a lot of space the book did not have, even if it was really, really, really cool. Only the Obeah thing really sticks in my craw, that seems a terrible design decision.

[Ahrimanius]

How large is the File?

once I get the file it is going straight on my phone.

[Matt.Ceb]

DTRPG says about 130MB

[Ahrimanius]

DTRPG says about 130MB

Thanks.

You get your link then?
Be nice to know if anybody in Germany got their link yet.

[Matt.Ceb]

Not yet, but I got a peek at the sales page before the direct link was taken down. ;)
Luckily enough, I saved it on my iPad.

[Richt]

No Josh Timbrook, but Leif Jones?

Actually, Josh did the line art for the Assamites, Followers of Set, Lasombra, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Ravnos, Tzimisce, and Ventrue. Leif stepped up and colored Josh's line art under his guidance and completed the other Clans when personal issues prevented Josh from finishing. Not going to get into an argument over subjective art appreciation, but Leif was a hero who nailed Josh's original vision in a very short period of time.

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

Actually, Josh did the line art for the Assamites, Followers of Set, Lasombra, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Ravnos, Tzimisce, and Ventrue. Leif stepped up and colored Josh's line art under his guidance and completed the other Clans when personal issues prevented Josh from finishing. Not going to get into an argument over subjective art appreciation, but Leif was a hero who nailed Josh's original vision in a very short period of time.

Fair enough.

I thought that Followers of Set illo's face looked like something Josh would draw.

[BaronSamedi]

Since I hit the low points above let me hit some high points.

The re-used art was well handled. There was some from Revised and 1st and 2nd ed. I looked at pictures I have not looked at in almost 16 years. I squeed a little. I think it really added to the book, and there was enough good new art it was not lazy. The portraits for the clans were gorgeous, several I'd be happy to have on my wall.

The book was very well written. The changes to the powers, aside from what I screamed about above with Obeah, made sense. The book had the sensitivity to the issues I liked, it was pretty damn encyclopedic, The style was awesome and the substance, was substantial. I dropped 100 bucks on this book. I feel like my money was well spent. (or will be, when the physical book arrives) Throwing in the $30 PDF was a really, really really nice move on their part too.

This was a good book. I think it is the best Vampire rulebook yet, and this is from someone who still thinks revised is the bee's knees at least in terms of systems and clan presentation.

[The Tim]

So, as someone who has a whole swath of Vampire: the Masquerade books but generally prefers Requiem for its tone and toolbox nature, is V20 worth plopping down money on the PDF for? Besides drawing together a lot of scattered pieces and some streamlining, does it do anything else?

I will admit, if I were about to run or play a V:tM game I'd be really tempted because having a single document to reference on my iPad would be super convenient—and I'd probably then ditch the redundant books on my shelf to make some room—however, beyond that, what's in there that leaps out as something that makes you really happy you got it.

[Matt.Ceb]

I realize what they were going for, but Revised made the Independent Clans cool and interesting, not just villain of the week, while V20 seems to move them back to villain of the week status.


This was a good book. I think it is the best Vampire rulebook yet, and this is from someone who still thinks revised is the bee's knees at least in terms of systems and clan presentation.

For this, I'll simply give my players the revised Clan-books as "homework" before the first game for the clan they chose. And ask them to read nothing BUT that book. As most of them are new to the WoD Lore, I'd like to see how play pans out when people start of from the perspective of a Cainite who still has to throw off their sire's hold on their "education".

[BaronSamedi]

For this, I'll simply give my players the revised Clan-books as "homework" before the first game for the clan they chose. And ask them to read nothing BUT that book. As most of them are new to the WoD Lore, I'd like to see how play pans out when people start of from the perspective of a Cainite who still has to throw off their sire's hold on their "education".

It works. As I say, Revised take is not gone...the discussion of the Followers of Set in two places really plays up their guardians take, and the Bloodlines chapter sheds a lot of lights on the more complicated aspects of the Children of Haqim. It's just that the two page splats don't so much. I will be fair here and note the Ravnos section is not all "OMG Gypsies" like some of the earlier stuff.

[Holden]

Actually, Josh did the line art for the Assamites, Followers of Set, Lasombra, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Ravnos, Tzimisce, and Ventrue. Leif stepped up and colored Josh's line art under his guidance and completed the other Clans when personal issues prevented Josh from finishing. Not going to get into an argument over subjective art appreciation, but Leif was a hero who nailed Josh's original vision in a very short period of time.

Not personally a big fan of Leif's art style, but kudos to the man for stepping into the breach like that.

[The Red Baron]

It works. As I say, Revised take is not gone...the discussion of the Followers of Set in two places really plays up their guardians take, and the Bloodlines chapter sheds a lot of lights on the more complicated aspects of the Children of Haqim. It's just that the two page splats don't so much. I will be fair here and note the Ravnos section is not all "OMG Gypsies" like some of the earlier stuff.

Happily, it references their Indian origins.

Obeah is fixed (and is a one-shot killer for The Fallen, too). Valeran is functional and something a warrior clan would take. Salubri rock.

Hey, Ian - do you know when the Wrecking Crew SAS is being released?

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

Salubri rock.

I hear your book says otherwise!

[Skywalker]

Good to see the gouging has started even before the books are fully released :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/250897525650?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1156

[The Red Baron]

I hear your book says otherwise!

:(

[Holden]

So, as someone who has a whole swath of Vampire: the Masquerade books but generally prefers Requiem for its tone and toolbox nature, is V20 worth plopping down money on the PDF for? Besides drawing together a lot of scattered pieces and some streamlining, does it do anything else?

This is kind of hard to pull off as a sales pitch, but I'm being honest here: Yes, it does something else—it's a fucking time machine. You will open it up, fall back in time a decade and a half or so, and find yourself floating in a cradle of Sisters of Mercy, jeans with rivets, red-lipped Toreador smiling knife-edge smiles, and Sabbat leaping over burning cars. It is a triumphant celebration and distillation of everything that was great about VtM across its three iterations, collated and polished with love and professional care. It's worth it just to see all the bloodlines not only collected in one place, but presented in a tone of "man, aren't these cool? Here's how you play one, or include them in your game" rather than the old "well, they're obsolete in the modern era, and there's only like five of them, and they live in Timbuktu and never go to America and only a lameoid would want to play one."


I will admit, if I were about to run or play a V:tM game I'd be really tempted because having a single document to reference on my iPad would be super convenient—and I'd probably then ditch the redundant books on my shelf to make some room—however, beyond that, what's in there that leaps out as something that makes you really happy you got it.

The collation of so much info in one place is a big plus, but I really think this is the best iteration of the rules to date, as well. The Toreador weakness has been nuanced so that it's cool rather than dumb, they hit the balance on the physical Disciplines perfectly, Tremere finally have a weakness with teeth... it's just great.

[Jadasc]

Good to see the gouging has started even before the books are fully released :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/250897525650?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1156

Smile when you say that. :)

[Skywalker]

*shrug* No business of mine. Its only a pain when there are limited numbers of books that can be ordered like with the 40K RPG Collectors Edition. With V20, anyone could have ordered if they wanted it.

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

This is kind of hard to pull off as a sales pitch, but I'm being honest here: Yes, it does something else—it's a fucking time machine. You will open it up, fall back in time a decade and a half or so, and find yourself floating in a cradle of Sisters of Mercy, jeans with rivets, red-lipped Toreador smiling knife-edge smiles, and Sabbat leaping over burning cars. It is a triumphant celebration and distillation of everything that was great about VtM across its three iterations, collated and polished with love and professional care. It's worth it just to see all the bloodlines not only collected in one place, but presented in a tone of "man, aren't these cool? Here's how you play one, or include them in your game" rather than the old "well, they're obsolete in the modern era, and there's only like five of them, and they live in Timbuktu and never go to America and only a lameoid would want to play one."

Arguably enthusiastic portrayal of the bloodlines works against the book's time-machine nature, mind.

[IanWatson]

Hmm...

(The Rev. corebook Lucita illustration for the Lasombra write-up)

Touché. I retract my statement. Although other pieces portray her differently, there's clearly precedent.


Hey, Ian - do you know when the Wrecking Crew SAS is being released?

Let me tell you, it's always weird to have people asking me questions when there are people from White Wolf and DriveThru in the same thread. (:

Nothing's been announced, but I would suspect Dust to Dust will release simultaneously (or close) to the general release of V20. So about the end of October.

Keep an eye on the Latest Release and Upcoming Releases sidebars on the front page of my Wiki (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page). I update it at least once a week with any new data I get.

[ADamiani]

I should probably mention that it's some of the best Leif Jones splat art I've ever seen, but I haven't decided whether that counts as damning with faint praise or not. I would very much like this thread not to turn into a Leif Jones hate-in or a big argument about his relative merits, however.

Yeah, I thought it was an odd choice. I don't like being an anti-fan, and it is definitely some of the best stuff I've seen from Leif Jones, but he doesn't strike me as the most iconic vampire artist I'd want doing the splat art. That said, it feels like the definitive ones are those crazy photorealistic Bradstreet things, they just wouldn't fit in the splat pages.


File size is a huge minus. I can stick it on my Nook as a PDF, but it's a lot of space at 130mb, and it takes 30 seconds to turn a damned page. If I use Calibre to convert to ebook, however, the size becomes a flat-out prohibitive 250mb. So I'm basically reading this on PC and waiting for a hardcopy.

(Which isn't to complain about book size, it's to say: more RPGs should consider, possibly, dedicated e-reader versions)


Is Infertile Vitae 5 points, where 15th gen (which includes Infertile Vitae and then some) is only 4?

[ADamiani]

No in-character fiction? It doesn't over explain everything?!


Well, there is the V.T. letter to W.H. as a framing device....

[Matt.Ceb]

You just 6-piked. :)


I'm pretty glad to own an iPad2, on which even 130mb PDFs aren't that big of a deal. I've had... Larger files. They handle well. :)

[ADamiani]

I would say probably my favorite rule clean-up is the new Toreador weakness. It's a very elegant polish-up of what's always been kind of an eye-rolling, silly weakness. Now it feels right, and it's more gameplay-friendly (you don't have to just sit out the scene while your character stares at a lighting installation).

... I'm still reading that as exactly what happens. What am I missing?

[Holden]

... I'm still reading that as exactly what happens. What am I missing?

Greater scope in what it can apply to, for one-- now instead of "pretty art" it's any really enthralling experience, which might mean you get fixated on a painting, but also might mean "you get hung up talking to this really cool DJ."

Old weakness had you just kind of go into slack-jawed stare mode once it kicked in; the new one allows for active interaction. It's an obsessive fixation rather than a trance; you can pull other coterie members over and talk at them about whatever you're stuck on, or sit there chatting up the mortal who's hooked your attention. You still get to be in the scene, roleplaying, once the new Torie weakness kicks in, unlike the old one where you just sat there like a lump for the rest of the scene.

[SpaceKnight]

Quick question for people with the pdf on Ipads, did you have to do any extra processing to get it to view properly, like run it thru OSX preview or acrobat pro to adjust it for an earlier version of reader? I'd really like to be able to get this in october for my ipad without having to reprocess it to make it viewable. I've had to do this to WW pdfs in the past, and have still had some things come out wonky (like thin borders around obviously transparent parts of images. The dark colored pages of the Promethean books was one of the worst for this). Part of this I know is how iOS renders pdfs, but it can still be frustrating.

[Matt.Ceb]

See here:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?594462-v20-when-can-non-preorderers-snag-the-pdf-plus-another-question&p=14447223#post14447223

[SpaceKnight]

See here:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?594462-v20-when-can-non-preorderers-snag-the-pdf-plus-another-question&p=14447223#post14447223
That's good to see, I hadn't dived into that thread since I had an idea when it would be out. Now if Apple would just change the way that iOS renders pdfs so some of this wouldn't be necessary, but that's a rant for another day :D

[TheRoleplayer]

I haven't had a chance to check much of the new edition yet, specially art-wise, but I've always been a big fan of Leif's first high-contrast-black-and-white pieces for White Wolf (#1 (http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=45826), #2 (http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=40641), #3 (http://bindusara.free.fr/web/gal/vampireda/nb/Leif%20Jones/ArtVampMascarad.jpg), #4 (http://bindusara.free.fr/web/gal/vampireda/nb/Leif%20Jones/ArtVampMascarad03.jpg)). When it started getting too cartoonish he lost me though. Where is he standing now?

[Kaiju Keiichi]

Old weakness had you just kind of go into slack-jawed stare mode once it kicked in; the new one allows for active interaction. It's an obsessive fixation rather than a trance; you can pull other coterie members over and talk at them about whatever you're stuck on, or sit there chatting up the mortal who's hooked your attention. You still get to be in the scene, roleplaying, once the new Torie weakness kicks in, unlike the old one where you just sat there like a lump for the rest of the scene.

"LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY CHARACTER." ;)

[Matt.Ceb]

"LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY CHARACTER." ;)

"STAKE TO THE HEART!"

[CowboyEnergy]

"LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY CHARACTER." ;)

Truly a game of personal horror!

[IanWatson]

"STAKE TO THE HEART!"

AND YOU'RE TO BLAME
BABY, YOU GAVE UNDEATH
A BAD NAME

[ironduke]

I liked generally everything on book except True Brujah treatment and some clan/bloodline illustrations. It seems every rule problems people had have been transformed to nice rules, such as Gangrel weakness or celerity. Its funny that Enoch of DSotBH came back, but time meddling powerz of Temporis has been crippled and there are no Path of Scorched Heart on book. I want mummy 2nd v20 now with 80% less skill erasing memory rolls and with 120% more oversix attributes.
Also why the elder sheets have 9 dots but there is no explanations for 6 dots on Generations background? Am I missed something with skimming the book?

[Propagandor]

It occurs to me that the V20 companion is in the works and if they are doing the fan consultation thing again, there could be room for any ommisions from V20 that people feel the game would be better with

[Yo! Master]

Its funny that Enoch of DSotBH came back, but time meddling powerz of Temporis has been crippled and there are no Path of Scorched Heart on book.

I presume those follow more the Rev. era approach to the Trujah / 'True' Black Hand.

Also, given there are like a thousand Paths out there, not all of them finding their way in the book is understandable.

[Rancor]

I'm bound to like the book, since two friends of mine are in and put a lot of enthusiasm over it (one is the first guy bearing witness in the foreword and the other is the model for the Tim Bradstreet Tremere illustration).

Apart from that, it's a great book, summing up almost everything VtM was. I enjoyed it (despite those clan illustrations, almost killed it for me :/ ), and urged me to play VtM again after many years. But, on the other hand i feel the "goodness" of the book is mostly based on a combination of nostalgia, hype and exclusivism. I doubt anyone who didn't live VtM peak years thoroughly would be even half excited as I am (and i am not specially so, you should have seen my friends...)

[BaronSamedi]

I presume those follow more the Rev. era approach to the Trujah / 'True' Black Hand.

Also, given there are like a thousand Paths out there, not all of them finding their way in the book is understandable.

It's very close. A couple powers are from Guide to the high clans, not VSH, but they are slightly stronger then the powers they replaced. They are nowhere near the unbalanced nightmare that was DSBH

If you want a comparable version of Path of the Scorched Heart to the stuff in that book, ie Revised Style, check Sins of the Blood. It also has Self-Focus and Harmony, rules for Wights, several Dark Thaumaturgy Paths, and some Dur-An-Ki, Thaum, and Koldunic Rirtuals. IIRC the Revised version of Quenching the Lambent Flame and Necter of the Bitter Rose are in that book.

Scorched Heart is also in Chaining the Beast. CtB will give you several Paths not in V20, but has a LOT of repeated material...it has every single Path in Revised, so of course several repeats. But you can get Redemption, Orion, the Hive, and other goodies.

[Tar Markvar]

What system does it use? Is it nWoD, or a version of oWoD Revised?

[Ahrimanius]

It uses oWoD revised with some tweaks.

[jachilli]

Now if Apple would just change the way that iOS renders pdfs so some of this wouldn't be necessary, but that's a rant for another day :D

I use GoodReader for all my game PDFs. Highly recommended, and plays well with my Dropbox folder where I put PDFs to sync them across devices.

Regards,
Justin

[Matt.Ceb]

Yes, but even GoodReader can't navigate around Apple's backwards and stupid "NO JPEG2000!" limitation.

That's why quite a few nWoD DPFs look way too dark and sometimes even broken on the iPad, even with GoodReader.

[Matt-M-McElroy]

Yes, but even GoodReader can't navigate around Apple's backwards and stupid "NO JPEG2000!" limitation.

That's why quite a few nWoD DPFs look way too dark and sometimes even broken on the iPad, even with GoodReader.

We're working on getting each and every one of them updated so they display correctly. There are a lot of them, so this may take a while.

-Matt

[Rand Brittain]

We're working on getting each and every one of them updated so they display correctly. There are a lot of them, so this may take a while.

-Matt

I presume that goes hand-in-hand with getting them ready for PoD, so they probably won't be updated twice, right?

[Mechalus]

Yes, but even GoodReader can't navigate around Apple's backwards and stupid "NO JPEG2000!" limitation.
If you have access to the full version of Acrobat, and the PDF allows it, you can usually fix this by saving the PDF so that it is compatible with Acrobat 4.0.

IIRC, you go to Document>Reduce File Size... or something like that.

This doesn't seem to work 100% of the time. But I've fixed several PDFs by doing this so it's worth a shot.

[Matt.Ceb]

We're working on getting each and every one of them updated so they display correctly. There are a lot of them, so this may take a while.

That wasn't a jab at you OR WW here. :)

I simply find it annoying that Apple decided to disable JPEG2000 handling even though it's something that Adobe InDesign and Acrobat consider to be "defaults".

I see this firmly as Apple's fault, and have no problems with waiting for any eventual fixes, no matter how long it takes. :)

[Matt.Ceb]

If you have access to the full version of Acrobat, and the PDF allows it, you can usually fix this by saving the PDF so that it is compatible with Acrobat 4.0.

IIRC, you go to Document>Reduce File Size... or something like that.

This doesn't seem to work 100% of the time. But I've fixed several PDFs by doing this so it's worth a shot.

Yeah, I know.
I did that to a few files, but... Still.

I can't see a damn reason for Apple deciding to cut off such a feature. There is benefit to the customer.

[Matt-M-McElroy]

That wasn't a jab at you OR WW here. :)

I didn't think it was, but it was a good opportunity to let folks know that we're working on it.

-Matt

[MrGonev5]

Ugh, great... Now I'm imagining Vampire: The Masquerade as illustrated by Rob Liefeld. :)

That would be EPIC! :p

[MrGonev5]

You just 6-piked. :)


I'm pretty glad to own an iPad2, on which even 130mb PDFs aren't that big of a deal. I've had... Larger files. They handle well. :)

I agree. I have a first gen iPad, and it works just as good for pdfs. I love it.

[MrGonev5]

I liked generally everything on book except True Brujah treatment and some clan/bloodline illustrations. It seems every rule problems people had have been transformed to nice rules, such as Gangrel weakness or celerity. Its funny that Enoch of DSotBH came back, but time meddling powerz of Temporis has been crippled and there are no Path of Scorched Heart on book. I want mummy 2nd v20 now with 80% less skill erasing memory rolls and with 120% more oversix attributes.

You know, as a fan of DSotBH, I find that awesome that the True Black Hand gets another mention. :D



Also why the elder sheets have 9 dots but there is no explanations for 6 dots on Generations background? Am I missed something with skimming the book?

I dunno. I was just asked to make an elder sheet that went up to 9 dots. :) Like it?

[zenten]

That wasn't a jab at you OR WW here. :)

I simply find it annoying that Apple decided to disable JPEG2000 handling even though it's something that Adobe InDesign and Acrobat consider to be "defaults".

I see this firmly as Apple's fault, and have no problems with waiting for any eventual fixes, no matter how long it takes. :)

Apple seems to be really hating Adobe lately.

[Kaiju Keiichi]

One thing that made me giggle -

In the Magi NPC descriptions, the words 'Magick' and 'Magickal' are used all over the place. I remember that when MageRev came out, I was openly mocked for bemoaning the loss of a cool, and, fuck it all, gothic word for sorcery.

I hope they keep the term for M20. ;)

[MrGonev5]

One thing that made me giggle -

In the Magi NPC descriptions, the words 'Magick' and 'Magickal' are used all over the place. I remember that when MageRev came out, I was openly mocked for bemoaning the loss of a cool, and, fuck it all, gothic word for sorcery.

I hope they keep the term for M20. ;)

Hell yea!!

[Yo! Master]

From the signature characters Ramona, the Gangrel one, seems the more different from up to now depictions of her.

[Mark Hope]

One thing that made me giggle -

In the Magi NPC descriptions, the words 'Magick' and 'Magickal' are used all over the place. I remember that when MageRev came out, I was openly mocked for bemoaning the loss of a cool, and, fuck it all, gothic word for sorcery.

I hope they keep the term for M20. ;)
Fantastic. It's in the stuff on Lilith too, stating that she is the creator of magick and passed its secrets onto certain favoured mortals. Not that M20 need acknowledge that as truth, but either way I'd love to see Special K come back to Mage.

[FredH]

Adobe Reader X says: "There was an error opening this document. The file is damaged and could not be repaired."

And my DriveThru coupon's been redeemed, so I can't try grabbing it again without paying a second time.

[Matt.Ceb]

Errr, no.
Check your library.
If you redeem a coupon, it belongs to you and is tied to your account.

[Skywalker]

Adobe Reader X says: "There was an error opening this document. The file is damaged and could not be repaired."

And my DriveThru coupon's been redeemed, so I can't try grabbing it again without paying a second time.

If you used the coupon the link should be in your account list now. Try downloading it again.

I had a similar issue on first download too.

[MrGonev5]

Yup, you can download it a few times. It used to a limit of 5 times....have they changed that? I want to say they have...

[Gilbetron]

Yup, you can download it a few times. It used to a limit of 5 times....have they changed that? I want to say they have...
I believe it is vendor specific, but every PDF I've grabbed from DTRPG lately has been unlimited in amount of downloads.

[ADamiani]

One thing that made me giggle -

In the Magi NPC descriptions, the words 'Magick' and 'Magickal' are used all over the place. I remember that when MageRev came out, I was openly mocked for bemoaning the loss of a cool, and, fuck it all, gothic word for sorcery.


I know, right!?

[FredH]

If you used the coupon the link should be in your account list now. Try downloading it again.

I had a similar issue on first download too.

Have tried this three times now, but continue to get the same error message that the file is damaged. Grr.

[Arachne]

I like it very much. I was thrilled to see the letter from the 1st ed. book in there, as well as the quote from the back of the book opening the introduction :D .

[Skywalker]

Have tried this three times now, but continue to get the same error message that the file is damaged. Grr.

DTRPG are being inundated with download requests. You may want to wait a while. I have yet to download any of the PC sheets for example.

[Arachne]

Caitiff don't get a spread? WTF? Tiny little extinct bloodlines get theirs, but not Caitff? I've hunted down every reference to them in the index, and they only get, like, maybe a paragraph total, except Panders, who get a little blurb under Antitribu. Caitiff should have a spread!

[Yo! Master]

Caitiff don't get a spread? WTF? Tiny little extinct bloodlines get theirs, but not Caitff? I've hunted down every reference to them in the index, and they only get, like, maybe a paragraph total, except Panders, who get a little blurb under Antitribu. Caitiff should have a spread!

Hmm... yes, good point.

[The Scribbler]

One thing that made me giggle -

In the Magi NPC descriptions, the words 'Magick' and 'Magickal' are used all over the place. I remember that when MageRev came out, I was openly mocked for bemoaning the loss of a cool, and, fuck it all, gothic word for sorcery.

I hope they keep the term for M20. ;)

My only problem with "magick" was that it seemed very much like gothic version of "X-TREME" spelling changes. I can't see it without imagining someone who is trying way too hard.

Still, it's a minor thing. :)

[Rand Brittain]

I think the problem is that to some people, "magick" looks gothic and interesting, and other people just don't have that set of associations at all, so it comes across as just dumb. It probably depends on what you were reading in high school, or something like that.

[Yo! Master]

I think the problem is that to some people, "magick" looks gothic and interesting, and other people just don't have that set of associations at all, so it comes across as just dumb. It probably depends on what you were reading in high school, or something like that.

I have the "proper" gothic & otherwise background, trust me. It still comes off to me as...

[Kaiju Keiichi]

I have the "proper" gothic & otherwise background, trust me. It still comes off to me as...

... cool enough for a stylistic game like vampire, or Mage!

Hey, if it was good enough for Crowley, it's good enough for me! the K stays!

Also, Magick and a certain hard core 4 letter word have Ks at the end. I feel Tradition Mages, even those with non-western magick styles, would embrace the K because it's a bad ass fuck you to boring Union crap. Yes, of course it's pretentious. That's the point!

[SJE]

OK, where are my Siouxsie Sioux quotes? I remember when nearly every Bolded header had its own quote below it - and I've only counted 2 under the first few chapter headers.... Its definately not 1st Ed....

[Matt.Ceb]

Yeah, those went away with revised and I was sure that we weren't getting them back.

Siouxsie, Dead Can Dance, Bauhaus... I was hoping for them, but I think I knew that their time is gone.
...
Which is why my games will be blasting them all the fucking way down to their end.

[Rand Brittain]

Anyway, it looks like the book is a big success. If I had a complaint, it would probably be the depiction of the Followers of Set as pure villains ("nihilism" isn't at all how their religion was described in the Revised Clanbook: they're gnostics). But overall, a really nice piece of work, and very well-suited to being read on a tablet.

[Yo! Master]

Yeah, those went away with revised and I was sure that we weren't getting them back.

Siouxsie, Dead Can Dance, Bauhaus... I was hoping for them, but I think I knew that their time is gone.
...
Which is why my games will be blasting them all the fucking way down to their end.

2 whole days of those by this point.

Switching to something modern: She Wants Revenge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/She_Wants_Revenge)

:cool:

[Matt.Ceb]

Their first album was fucking ACE!
The rest... Got kinda stale really fast, which is a shame.
I still love their first CD, though.

[IanWatson]

OK, where are my Siouxsie Sioux quotes? I remember when nearly every Bolded header had its own quote below it - and I've only counted 2 under the first few chapter headers.... Its definately not 1st Ed....

I mentioned the band quotes in earlier editions at the Grand Masquerade.

Justin: "Yeah, the band quotes! What happened to those?"
Mike: "We stopped doing them because we hadn't been paying licensing fees."

[Matt.Ceb]

I mentioned the band quotes in earlier editions at the Grand Masquerade.

Justin: "Yeah, the band quotes! What happened to those?"
Mike: "We stopped doing them because we hadn't been paying licensing fees."

Problem is... With the clusterfuck-assholes that form the RIAA... That might just be true. :/

[Craig Oxbrow]

Neil Gaiman had to change one of the chapter-starting quotes in American Gods for the same reason.

[ADamiani]

Neil Gaiman had to change one of the chapter-starting quotes in American Gods for the same reason.

Seriously? For excerpts that short?

Copyright law sucks.

[Gizmit]

Stupid music companies. I've bought songs because of the quotes.

[BaronSamedi]

I mentioned the band quotes in earlier editions at the Grand Masquerade.

Justin: "Yeah, the band quotes! What happened to those?"
Mike: "We stopped doing them because we hadn't been paying licensing fees."


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Propagandor]

I know some people who giggle at the special K, I grew up reading too many books that took the piss out of people who use the special K, so its hard to take it seriously

[ADamiani]

I know some people who giggle at the special K, I grew up reading too many books that took the piss out of people who use the special K, so its hard to take it seriously

Ok, I mean, it's a letter; a single stupid letter. Of itself, it means nothing. But removing the special-K was a big symbol of Mage Revised, and an edition that seemed to delight in taking the trappings of M2nd and "taking the piss" on them. Its inclusion gives me warm, tribal fuzzies and acts as some reassurance that M20 may yet be the version of Mage that finally buries the hatchet.

[Rand Brittain]

Ok, I mean, it's a letter; a single stupid letter. Of itself, it means nothing. But removing the special-K was a big symbol of Mage Revised, and an edition that seemed to delight in taking the trappings of M2nd and "taking the piss" on them. Its inclusion gives me warm, tribal fuzzies and acts as some reassurance that M20 may yet be the version of Mage that finally buries the hatchet.

I suppose there is that.

In the spirit of burying that hatchet deep within the Earth and killing it with spirit nukes and sun mirrors, I shall agree to accept the K.

[IanWatson]

But removing the special-K was a big symbol of Mage Revised, and an edition that seemed to delight in taking the trappings of M2nd and "taking the piss" on them.

Seriously?

[Rand Brittain]

Seriously?

Revised did kind of cut down a wide swathe of what people liked about 2e in a clumsy attempt to focus the game on street-level Earth. May M20 successfully marry both these elements into a coherent game, that the internets may know peace!

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

Seriously?

Yeah. I love MRev but I love iconiclasm and deep in my black little heart I love trolling, and a lot of MRev was about taking the most beloved elements of 2nd edition and going "You're stupid if you like this!"

Like remember how VRev-era WW writers would make fun of people who liked wonky paths and weird bloodlines and goofy shit that doesn't fit in with VRev's hyperfocus on "vampires as junkie rapist scum?" Well, MRev was like that, except making fun of the people who liked Horizon Realms. Malcolm Sheppard thinks it's impossible to run a game where the PCs are desperate guerillas if someone higher up in the guerilla organization can live in Balador Pleasuredome, and so Balador Pleasuredome needs to get 'sploded.

I've decided I can take the special K or leave it. I don't really care.

[Propagandor]

I think this might be one of those situations where a phrase in one country means something else in another

Taking the piss out of something is different from taking a piss on something

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

I think this might be one of those situations where a phrase in one country means something else in another

Taking the piss out of something is different from taking a piss on something

I think in this case the dual meaning of the phrase is being invoked deliberately. MRev's rejection of certain elements of M2 is sufficiently mean-spirited as to go past taking the piss out of M2 and, uh, arrive at pissing on it. Or, at least, that's certainly how a lot of fans took it. Why do you think the flamewars got so bad?

[Castille]

So not to derail away from V20, but I ran a 2year gonzo MageRev campaign based around trashing D&D modules thinly disguised as Umbral realms and everyone had more fun than flavours of ice-cream. And that was with me not knowing anything about the in-built gonzo of 2nd Ed Mage until near the end. If you can have fun with it, do it.

Back on V20 topic: I have been informed by my wife that if I don't get her this pdf ASAP there will be consequences. One month and 5 days to go...

[The Tim]

Is there going to be an M20, because I'd be all about getting that. I doubt their will be a W20, but that would be pretty fucking awesome.

Also, for M20, it should be spelled majik.

[Rand Brittain]

They've already announced W20, like, a month ago.

[The Tim]

They've already announced W20, like, a month ago.

Er, Wr20 not just W. Forgot about werewolf entirely.

[Professor Phobos]

God, I'd kill a person for a Wraith 20th Anniversary edition.

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

I really hope we see Wraith 20. Really really.

[Kaiju Keiichi]

I think in this case the dual meaning of the phrase is being invoked deliberately. MRev's rejection of certain elements of M2 is sufficiently mean-spirited as to go past taking the piss out of M2 and, uh, arrive at pissing on it. Or, at least, that's certainly how a lot of fans took it. Why do you think the flamewars got so bad?

As opposed to a good deal of M2 actually being silly and gonzo, and the setting really needing a haircut (although I would never have said it at the time.) I think a better way to have done it would have been a Mage 3 reboot in an alternate continuity, but there was the risk of alienating the people who like their lore. So, Da Wolf was caught in a catch 22.

Oh, S, I think we've gotten soft in our old age.

As opposed to the 'K'. It will only be discarded WHEN YOU PRY IT OUT OF MY COLD, STIFF, DEAD HANDS. ;)

CB

[Kaiju Keiichi]

I really hope we see Wraith 20. Really really.

Right on, brother. Written by the man Bruce Baugh himself.

[Kaiju Keiichi]

I also want to see C20, but with Lost's mechanics, especially the Kith/Seeming system.

[Holden]

I also want to see C20, but with Lost's mechanics, especially the Kith/Seeming system.

God, no. You'll pry my Sluagh out of my cold, dead hands.

[Peter Svensson]

I also want to see C20, but with Lost's mechanics, especially the Kith/Seeming system.
Naw. That's what the Changeling Conversion Guide is for. C20 should be the missing Revised edition, which is visibly Changeling: the Dreaming and not C:tL but is mechanically to par with the other WoD games. It would adopt the toolbox approach from nWoD because C:tD is such a schizophrenic game that any attempt to make a cohesive whole would end up leaving several valid forms of gameplay out in the cold, and since C:tD was everything from street level struggling to survive la vie boheme to epic quests in the Deep Dreaming as a result of international courtly intrigue, it's got a lot to cover.

That and all the kiths. Which as much as I think it was a mistake to make a skajillion different kiths, they're here and WW has to work around them.

Also, I would kill to get to work on this project.

[Professor Phobos]

While we're wishing for things, Demon: The Fallen...disconnected from the wider WoD, it's own self-contained thing.

[Poisson Resistance]

While we're wishing for things, Demon: The Fallen...disconnected from the wider WoD, it's own self-contained thing.

And without statements (in-character, but still) along the lines of "Autistic people don't have souls", perhaps?

[Glamourweaver]

God, no. You'll pry my Sluagh out of my cold, dead hands.

You can still build that exact character, he would just be part of a broader variety of Darklings.

[El Diablo Robotico]

You can still build that exact character, he would just be part of a broader variety of Darklings.

It also would not be cWoD Changeling.

[Glamourweaver]

It also would not be cWoD Changeling.

Only if one is dead set on doing Changeling exactly the same way. Personally I'd like to see CtD patched to bring it in line with its own themes of creativity and individuality in dreams. This also means a comparatively more freeform Art system.

[Professor Phobos]

Only if one is dead set on doing Changeling exactly the same way. Personally I'd like to see CtD patched to bring it in line with its own themes of creativity and individuality in dreams. This also means a comparatively more freeform Art system.

Beyond the scope of anniversary editions, basically. The mission statement isn't to improve, but distill.

[James Gillen]

While we're wishing for things, Demon: The Fallen...disconnected from the wider WoD, it's own self-contained thing.

Especially given that it comes across as Changeling: The Dreaming with a really bad hangover.

JG

[El Diablo Robotico]

Beyond the scope of anniversary editions, basically. The mission statement isn't to improve, but distill.

This.

It would be pretty damn sweet if they did a C20. All the Kiths and Sidhe Houses and Arts collected together... revised rules (including the Arts)... cleaning up the rules on Banality... but I'm not holding my breath. I'm guessing they'll probably only do the big three. Still, it's nice to hope.

[El Diablo Robotico]

That and all the kiths. Which as much as I think it was a mistake to make a skajillion different kiths, they're here and WW has to work around them.


VtM had a skajillion clans too. Some not all that great. What's good for the kindred is good for the kithain... :)

[BaronSamedi]

You can still build that exact character, he would just be part of a broader variety of Darklings.

It would be hard. Part of Slaugh's whole thing is their heightened senses. it is VERY, VERY hard to get that in Lost. Cyclopian kinda can, but to really make a Slaugh you need a Gravewight/Tunnelgrub, and you need around 10 Clarity. If you have that much Clarity, you probably are going to have trouble doing traditional Sluagh things.

Trust me, I totally obsessed on Sluagh far more then is healthy. ;)

[Glamourweaver]

My point was CtL kiths is that they are countless & variable. Just slap on hightened senses on a tunnel grub via the Dual Kith merit.

[IanWatson]

Ian: The year is 2013. Eddy Webb sends you a message: "Hey, Rich. We're considering doing a 20th Anniversary version of Wraith for 2014. Interested?" How do you respond?

Dansky, Richard E.: Massive coronary infarction?

[El Diablo Robotico]

My point was CtL kiths is that they are countless & variable. Just slap on hightened senses on a tunnel grub via the Dual Kith merit.

I get that. I do. And that's great!

But it still wouldn't be cWoD Changeling.

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

Ian: The year is 2013. Eddy Webb sends you a message: "Hey, Rich. We're considering doing a 20th Anniversary version of Wraith for 2014. Interested?" How do you respond?

Dansky, Richard E.: Massive coronary infarction?

Oh. Right.

I forgot about the curse. Maybe they should stay away from that one after all.

[DrFaustus]

God, no. You'll pry my Sluagh out of my cold, dead hands.

... Which are also the hands of a Sluagh.

[Center-of-All]

Oh. Right.

I forgot about the curse. Maybe they should stay away from that one after all.

I get the feeling that there's potentially interesting background here. Can I beg an explainaition?

[Stephen Lea Sheppard]

I get the feeling that there's potentially interesting background here. Can I beg an explainaition?

Rein-Hagen tried to do a game called Inferno. Production was plagued by misfortune, of the "authors come down with near-fatal illnesses"/"complete manuscripts are lost in freak power spikes" sort, and it was cancelled. Later, White Wolf started work on Wraith, and as soon as they incorporated ideas from Inferno, misfortune started plaguing production. So, traditionally, Wraith is cursed. This curse fucked with the game constantly and eventually killed it.

I'd love to see Wraith 20, but at this point the curse would provably contrive to give every CCP employee a fatal Ebola infection or something.

[IanWatson]

Rich followed that up saying that he'd absolutely love to work on it, but yeah. The cuuuuurse.

[NUNBoi]

An unfinished Wraith 20 would be one hell of a Fetter!

Kidding aside, as much as I am enamored by Dansky's work, Baugh made Wraith work. Great War's emphasis on Legions above Guilds made the most sense and was the most playable version of the game (being the pseudo-Revised version). Give me that with the passion of the decade old Wraith Project and I'll pre-order a copy for every member of my extended family.

[DaveB]

I am agnostic on keeping or discarding the Special K should (and it's still should) M20 happen.

I'd like to keep the Revised splats, though, because they were far, far, far, far, far better than the second (or Gods forbid, first) ed ones - Keep the Wu Lung in the Akashic Brotherhood and the Solifacti in the Order of Hermes, damnit. That would cut down on the number of Crafts requiring two-pagers and allow the inclusion of the Conventions.

Hell, Revised's High Umbra was much cooler (and actually detailed!) than 2nds, excepting the Horizon Realm apocalypse. A metaplot-neutral version of Revised, with or without the K, but including all the Technocracy, Nephandi, Marauder and Spirit rules that had to be farmed out to other books would be just nifty.


But keep the magic system as it was. There is a place for dividing Entropy into Death and Fate, and it's the Mage Conversion Guide.

[The Red Baron]

God, I'd kill a person for a Wraith 20th Anniversary edition.

Wraith is my favorite cWoD game, bar none.

If I don't get to work on Wraith, heads will roll.

[Mark Hope]

I am agnostic on keeping or discarding the Special K should (and it's still should) M20 happen.

I'd like to keep the Revised splats, though, because they were far, far, far, far, far better than the second (or Gods forbid, first) ed ones - Keep the Wu Lung in the Akashic Brotherhood and the Solifacti in the Order of Hermes, damnit. That would cut down on the number of Crafts requiring two-pagers and allow the inclusion of the Conventions.
The Revised-era splats were terrific. Fantastically well-written, overall. And, like you say, even in their dodgy bits they were better than their earlier iterations. I can see the reasons for folding Crafts into Traditions, but personally I love having lots of messy little Crafts and Disparates floating about the place. Oh well. No real worries either way :-)


Hell, Revised's High Umbra was much cooler (and actually detailed!) than 2nds, excepting the Horizon Realm apocalypse. A metaplot-neutral version of Revised, with or without the K, but including all the Technocracy, Nephandi, Marauder and Spirit rules that had to be farmed out to other books would be just nifty.
Yeah, revised's version of the Astral was very cool. Would be good to have the option to plug-and-play the Reckoning etc or not. As for actual umbrood rules, I'd like to see the system be compatible with Werewolf, just to make it easier to use umbrood from W:tA in my Mage game. The systems are close, but it would be good to iron out the differences - standardise the method for determining Essence based on the sum of the other three stats, for example, perhaps with increases/multipliers for more powerful spirits; and wasn't there some difference in how Mage and Werewolf treated spirit damage or soaking or something? I houseruled both systems so long ago that I can't remember what the default was, lol...


But keep the magic system as it was. There is a place for dividing Entropy into Death and Fate, and it's the Mage Conversion Guide.
Yeah. No split thanks. Not a fan of the Death/Fate division, for all that I like Awakening :). Agree with whoever it was that recently said necromancy should be a multi-sphere effort.

[Matt.Ceb]

Back to Vampire:

Regarding those who thought that there were no rules for traits higher than 5: Go to page 270.

[Christian A]

Setting-wise, what would you say is the largest difference between Vampire Revised and V20 (I realize that this has been asked before, but I'd like to get more than one opinion here, if possible)

Any appearances of the Masquerade signature characters? Theo Bell? Lucita? Etc.

[Yo! Master]

Any appearances of the Masquerade signature characters? Theo Bell? Lucita? Etc.

They still are the ones used for the 13 Clans 2-page spreads (though as i said some look a bit different).

[Mozart]

Setting-wise, what would you say is the largest difference between Vampire Revised and V20
Setting wise, there isn't really much of a difference. The initial presentation of the clans is generic and doesn't take into account the week of nightmares and subsequent events, but there are sidebars discussing the changes to make if you want to incorporate those events. So by the book you still have Gangrel in the Cam, and Ravnos alive and well, but you can change that. Malkavians are presented with Dementation, but again a sidebar talks about the Cam clan having Dominate (which personally I prefer).

[Wolfgar]

I know Werewolf is getting an anniversary edition, and Mage will probably get an anniversary edition.

Maybe...maybe it might be possible to do something like a special collector's edition for the other lines. Not something as involved as the anniversary editions, but something for fans of those games, perhaps.

[Jadasc]

I know Werewolf is getting an anniversary edition, and Mage will probably get an anniversary edition. Maybe...maybe it might be possible to do something like a special collector's edition for the other lines. Not something as involved as the anniversary editions, but something for fans of those games, perhaps.

I'm not sure how wide the middle ground is, here. Any project of that scope is going to be funded by preorders, and I can't imagine that they'll attract more money by producing a less-impressive product. Either it's worth going all-in or it isn't. (That said, there may well be Onyx Path books for the smaller lines.)

[theliel]

I think the problem is that to some people, "magick" looks gothic and interesting, and other people just don't have that set of associations at all, so it comes across as just dumb. It probably depends on what you were reading in high school, or something like that.

I on the other hand associate it with the otherkin who got a little too caught up in WoD when I was in high school.

[Wolfgar]

I'm not sure how wide the middle ground is, here. Any project of that scope is going to be funded by preorders, and I can't imagine that they'll attract more money by producing a less-impressive product. Either it's worth going all-in or it isn't. (That said, there may well be Onyx Path books for the smaller lines.)

For things like Wraith though, peop,le either really really like it and will buy anything with the word BOO written in it, or they don't care. I think the fans would rather get a scaled back version than nothing.

[zenten]

For things like Wraith though, peop,le either really really like it and will buy anything with the word BOO written in it, or they don't care. I think the fans would rather get a scaled back version than nothing.

While I would prefer a super duper C20 book with the depth and page count of V20 I have to admit that this probably applies to Changeling as well.

[Angry Ghost]

out of interest, who did the new clan pictures? They seem quite out of place with the whole gothic-punk vibe.

[The Scribbler]

out of interest, who did the new clan pictures? They seem quite out of place with the whole gothic-punk vibe.

Do you mean the splat pictures that go with the 2-page descriptions?


Actually, Josh [Timbrook] did the line art for the Assamites, Followers of Set, Lasombra, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Ravnos, Tzimisce, and Ventrue. Leif stepped up and colored Josh's line art under his guidance and completed the other Clans when personal issues prevented Josh from finishing. Not going to get into an argument over subjective art appreciation, but Leif was a hero who nailed Josh's original vision in a very short period of time.

If you mean the chapter break images... I believe those are Bradstreet?

[Angry Ghost]

yeah sorry, mean pictures for the 2 page clan write ups, which seems to have been answered. Thanks

[omega1no]

out of interest, who did the new clan pictures? They seem quite out of place with the whole gothic-punk vibe.

To be quite honest they are as bad as the revised clan pictures... And the only thing with V20 I am disappointed about, the clan and bloodlines art sucks hard! The ones who made the art in DA: Vamp should have done it, those where beautiful, and same with the requiem art...

Otherwise V20 is fantastic!

[Angry Ghost]

To be quite honest they are as bad as the revised clan pictures... And the only thing with V20 I am disappointed about, the clan and bloodlines art sucks hard! The ones who made the art in DA: Vamp should have done it, those where beautiful, and same with the requiem art...

Otherwise V20 is fantastic!


I quite liked the bloodline pictures from revised supplements, not so much with revised main clans, esp brujah. Otherwise I agree with you about the art from DA and Requiem (still a masquerade fan first and foremost)

[Jadasc]

For things like Wraith though, people either really really like it and will buy anything with the word BOO written in it, or they don't care. I think the fans would rather get a scaled back version than nothing.

I think we're in agreement on the premises, but we disagree on the results. I think that, in order for WW/CCP to assign resources to this project, they need to make it as profitable as it can be. If the same 500 people would buy the $150 400-page book as would buy the $80 256-pager, I think they'd have to make the better product to make the better return.

[Yo! Master]

To be quite honest they are as bad as the revised clan pictures... And the only thing with V20 I am disappointed about, the clan and bloodlines art sucks hard! The ones who made the art in DA: Vamp should have done it, those where beautiful, and same with the requiem art...

Otherwise V20 is fantastic!

The Rev. corebook pics of the 13 signature characters, both the 2-page Clan spread ones & the 1-page full-color ones (even if B&W in the book itself, but full-color for the covers of the ClanBooks), are fantastic, imo, but art & opinions & all that.
(The DA:V Clan spread ones were quite good, too - apart from everyone carrying weapons for some reason)

[Angry Ghost]

The Rev. corebook pics of the 13 signature characters, both the 2-page Clan spread ones & the 1-page full-color ones (even if B&W in the book itself, but full-color for the covers of the ClanBooks), are fantastic, imo, but art & opinions & all that.
(The DA:V Clan spread ones were quite good, too - apart from everyone carrying weapons for some reason)

I have no problem with the quality of the art for the 2 page write ups (mostly) and agree strongly with the subjective element of art. I do however question the suitability of faux anime style for the clans.

After all, the first thing that new players (and there will be new players) will want to see are what the clans look like, and I feel that the style of the art helps with the immersion aspect of character creation. Personally I would have chosen something more gothic-punk for the 2 page clan write ups and bloodlines, especially as this is the style of the rest if V20 - even the photo art which, now finished, I admit to be pleasantly surprised with (I was not a fan of the pre doctored photos).

[Yo! Master]

I have no problem with the quality of the art for the 2 page write ups (mostly) and agree strongly with the subjective element of art. I do however question the suitability of faux anime style for the clans.

After all, the first thing that new players (and there will be new players) will want to see are what the clans look like, and I feel that the style of the art helps with the immersion aspect of character creation. Personally I would have chosen something more gothic-punk for the 2 page clan write ups and bloodlines, especially as this is the style of the rest if V20 - even the photo art which, now finished, I admit to be pleasantly surprised with (I was not a fan of the pre doctored photos).

Here is the thing... as far as i'm concerned it's not faux-anime or anything of that kind. Sure, it's stylized but not every stylization someone has not internalized translates to anime.

And it's Josh Timbrook, one of the artists who pretty much created V:tM's aesthetic. His stuff has always been stylized (check out Chicago by Night 1st ed.) & while he has done actual anime-esque artwork this isn't one of those cases.

[Kaiju Keiichi]

Ian: The year is 2013. Eddy Webb sends you a message: "Hey, Rich. We're considering doing a 20th Anniversary version of Wraith for 2014. Interested?" How do you respond?

Dansky, Richard E.: Massive coronary infarction?

This means that Dansky and Baugh will merely write Wraith 20 from beyond the grave, reaping massive Pathos from the pleasure that gamers will derive from it. :)

I'd much rather they'd write it while breathing, of course!

[Angry Ghost]

Here is the thing... as far as i'm concerned it's not faux-anime or anything of that kind. Sure, it's stylized but not every stylization someone has not internalized translated to anime.

And it's Josh Timbrook, one of the artists who pretty much created V:tM's aesthetic. His stuff has always been stylized (check out Chicago by Night 1st ed.) & while he has done actual anime-esque artwork this isn't one of those cases.

one of the artists though, not the only one. Again, subjective. I personally find Shy's work to sum it up. I enjoy the art found in many of the books from throughout Vampire's history. Personally I don't find the Clan art in V20 to feel like My Vampire, but again, that's based on how I run it and perceive gothic-punk.

Faux-Anime may well have been a poor choice of words to sum up the style. However, I thought if I said faux-disney* I would really piss folk off ;-)



*no, I am not really suggesting that it looks disney

[Kaiju Keiichi]

One annoyance thing -

They didn't fix Generation. Generation, for it's cost, is a background tax - anyone would be a fool for not taking as much Generation as they can. I always felt that Generation should have been taken out of Backgrounds and made it's own stat, with geometrically escalating costs.

[TechnocratJT]

The lack of a couple pages for the Tal'Mahe'Ra is the only complaint I have as well.

Most amusing thing: the book manages to include what happens if your try and eat a Hitmark.

[TechnocratJT]

If you mean the chapter break images... I believe those are Bradstreet?

Aren't those photo manipulations?

[Yo! Master]

one of the artists though, not the only one. Again, subjective. I personally find Shy's work to sum it up. I enjoy the art found in many of the books from throughout Vampire's history. Personally I don't find the Clan art in V20 to feel like My Vampire, but again, that's based on how I run it and perceive gothic-punk.

Faux-Anime may well have been a poor choice of words to sum up the style. However, I thought if I said faux-disney* I would really piss folk off ;-)



*no, I am not really suggesting that it looks disney

Like Christopher Shy a lot myself as well. :)

Of course, its acknowledged i) the guy has a tendency to just throw random tattoos on portraits - particularly funny with vamps or Queen Anne having this massive one on her face (he got better at reigning in that as he did more V:tM stuff) & ii) he seems unable to draw on specifications - like the power-armors on Tradition mages in M:tA Rev.. :D

[Yo! Master]

Aren't those photo manipulations?

It isn't that Bradstreet has not always used models he photographed, even back in his outright painted days.

[Propagandor]

Its such a huge thread I'm thinking of doing a "where I read" thread, rather than try to review the whole thing

[TechnocratJT]

+1 double plus good for Christopher Shy. Drive truck of money (in artist terms, so shoe box of money) up to house (by door) for M20.

The best thing, for me anyway, about the book is the leveled maturity in the tone.

Late Vampire had a major issue with page count devoted to taking early vampire ideas that were gonzo or over the top and calling people out for being stupid immature twinks for liking any of it.

Here is True Brujah revised, they suck, and the tone makes it clear you suck for liking them. This attitude is entirely absent from v20. Many gonzo ideas are included in revised form (often powered back up a bit too, see Temporis) that are fun, balanced, and not loaded with bullshit subtext on why this idea sucks. You like the True Brujah, Nagrajah and Old Clan Tzim? Well here they are - playable, balanced and without attitude on why you should not play them.

[The Red Baron]

One annoyance thing -

They didn't fix Generation. Generation, for it's cost, is a background tax - anyone would be a fool for not taking as much Generation as they can. I always felt that Generation should have been taken out of Backgrounds and made it's own stat, with geometrically escalating costs.

Fix it? They did. In Requiem.

Anecdote: I've never made a character lower than 10th Generation. I've played or read Vampire since 1999.

V20 was about celebrating all of Vampire, good and bad. While that meant changing Potence and Presence a bit to better balance them, or rewriting parts of Obeah or Necromancy that [I]never[\I] worked, Generation is something of a sacred cow. It's always been a Background. It's tied into the setting. It's expensive to take at 5. Diablerie is great. Make it another system, it's not the same old Generation, and you're discouraged from taking as much as you can by the Anchor Backgrounds.

You don't need to start at 8th Gen. Hey, you're a Crab Clan duelist. Are you a fool for not taking Different School: Kakita Bushi at chargen?

[Kaiju Keiichi]

Fix it? They did. In Requiem.

Anecdote: I've never made a character lower than 10th Generation. I've played or read Vampire since 1999.

V20 was about celebrating all of Vampire, good and bad. While that meant changing Potence and Presence a bit to better balance them, or rewriting parts of Obeah or Necromancy that [I]never[\I] worked, Generation is something of a sacred cow. It's always been a Background. It's tied into the setting. It's expensive to take at 5. Diablerie is great. Make it another system, it's not the same old Generation, and you're discouraged from taking as much as you can by the Anchor Backgrounds.

You don't need to start at 8th Gen. Hey, you're a Crab Clan duelist. Are you a fool for not taking Different School: Kakita Bushi at chargen?

Heh, the GM actually designed with me a custom school based on the principles that a prior character had researched in a legacy game, where KK learned that school from Osamu Mirumoto's ghost. When I get the chance to play him in regular L5R games, he usually gets Mirumoto Bushi or Mirumoto Swordmaster with Different School advantage. Kakita school is very one trick, and a Crab bushi has to be able to hold his own on the Wall! Further, the 3rd and 4th Ed incarnations of Mirumoto Bushi do very well in both skirmish and dueling.

As for the Kakita Bushi school? It might be considered heresy amongst most Crab, but as an ardent student of the Sword, Keiichi always considered Kakita-Sensei's teachings to be of the pinnacle of wisdom. His descendants? A bunch of effete snobs and jerks.

[TechnocratJT]

Fix it? They did. In

Tis true.

V20 embraces a number of things like this. Look at the XP charts, they are more in line with Vampire 2nd than Vampire revised. Though that could be failing memory.

[BaronSamedi]

Here is True Brujah revised, they suck, and the tone makes it clear you suck for liking them. This attitude is entirely absent from v20. Many gonzo ideas are included in revised form (often powered back up a bit too, see Temporis) that are fun, balanced, and not loaded with bullshit subtext on why this idea sucks. You like the True Brujah, Nagrajah and Old Clan Tzim? Well here they are - playable, balanced and without attitude on why you should not play them.

Temporis still (as it should) has some catches it did not have in DSBH. It needed them. The Nagaraja Path is interesting...in VSH it seemed all about Ghostly perceptions (with some Nagaraja signatures) while in V20 it seems closer to Nihilistics. Honestly the two versions are so different I am keeping them as seperate paths, maybe the V20 version as a massive modification of the VSH one, when the Nagaraja got less and less shy about playing with Oblivion.

As for the art, I prefer Timbrook over Shy, but I don't hate Shy. Shy was not bad when he started having fewer random facial tattoos IMHO.

[Angry Ghost]

there's some tremere rituals I would have liked to see, I don't like the fact 1's still remove successes still - I'll never use that but I do like the potence/celerity re-write and glad to see three types of damage are back, rather than just two "/ and X"

[BedlamBoy]

In a way, I've never had a problem with Shy's photoshop pieces because it always seemed clear to me that they're not supposed to actually represent the appearance of the character in question. It simply never occured to me that we were to believe the characters his art is attached to were supposed to have random tribal or knotwork tattoos on their faces, just as it never occured to me that Archbishop Moncada was actually identical to Henry VIII but with fangs (really, Christopher? You photoshop a bit over one of the most famour portraits in the English-speaking world and thought no one would notice?), or that Vykos looks like a little girl with a smudgy face, or that the Mage universe looks like some mashup of Blade Runner, Star Wars, and Sleepy Hollow.

I'm not sure what his art is supposed to convey, since it clearly isn't the World of Darkness described in the books, though.

</rant>

[Kaiju Keiichi]

or that the Mage universe looks like some mashup of Blade Runner, Star Wars, and Sleepy Hollow.


Wait, it's not? ;)

[BedlamBoy]

Wait, it's not? ;)

It's the Star Wars-y elements of Shy's Mage pieces that kill it for me. A mashup of Blade Runner and Sleepy Hollow actually gets fairly close to what I want my World of Darkness to look and feel like.

[The Red Baron]

Temporis still (as it should) has some catches it did not have in DSBH. It needed them. The Nagaraja Path is interesting...in VSH it seemed all about Ghostly perceptions (with some Nagaraja signatures) while in V20 it seems closer to Nihilistics. Honestly the two versions are so different I am keeping them as seperate paths, maybe the V20 version as a massive modification of the VSH one, when the Nagaraja got less and less shy about playing with Oblivion.

I helped to outline the new version over on the WW forums in the closing days of Open Dev.

Old Vitreous Path was pretty terrible. The first two levels were literally the same power (except the first had a vague "it tells you if wraiths are around" ability), the third level was utterly dependent on Wraith mechanics for you to use (and was of highly limited utility anyways), the fourth level actively and severely endangered you to use it, and the fifth was highly limited (especially for Nagarajah) in what it could do for you - and was basically mechanically inelegant all around. In all, you've got a Necromantic Path that's only occasionally useful in certain situations, and even then it's not really knock-your-socks-off powerful.

The newer version, on the other hand, pulls thematic ties and titles from old Nihilistics, rebuilds the Path's effects to shift them to lower levels, and borrows some of the better mechanical powers from Orpheus (bringing it full-circle just a tad). It's useful, it's powerful, and it's something that fits the Nagarajah's setting fluff a bit more, I think.

[Rachel Cartacos]

One annoyance thing -

They didn't fix Generation. Generation, for it's cost, is a background tax - anyone would be a fool for not taking as much Generation as they can. I always felt that Generation should have been taken out of Backgrounds and made it's own stat, with geometrically escalating costs.

This has certainly been my experience.

My last vampire game I didn't buy any generation, man I never realised how much weaker having 5 points less blood available would make me feel.



Most amusing thing: the book manages to include what happens if your try and eat a Hitmark.

Oooo what does happen?

[I Hate All Life]

My input: Read through it. It's pretty nice. But it's not worth $100+ in my opinion. I'd have been happy with fewer (or no) color pictures if that had made the book's price more manageable. And it carries a lot of the problems Masq had, including those from earlier editions.

But it's still nice to have, and I've already spent the money on it. I may wait a while and flip the book, though as much as I love Masq I probably won't.

[Icon]

Here is True Brujah revised, they suck, and the tone makes it clear you suck for liking them. This attitude is entirely absent from v20. Many gonzo ideas are included in revised form (often powered back up a bit too, see Temporis) that are fun, balanced, and not loaded with bullshit subtext on why this idea sucks. You like the True Brujah, Nagrajah and Old Clan Tzim? Well here they are - playable, balanced and without attitude on why you should not play them.

Yep, True Brujah is the first thing I looked at and gotta say I like the changes to both them and Temporis.

[BaronSamedi]

I helped to outline the new version over on the WW forums in the closing days of Open Dev.

Old Vitreous Path was pretty terrible. The first two levels were literally the same power (except the first had a vague "it tells you if wraiths are around" ability), the third level was utterly dependent on Wraith mechanics for you to use (and was of highly limited utility anyways), the fourth level actively and severely endangered you to use it, and the fifth was highly limited (especially for Nagarajah) in what it could do for you - and was basically mechanically inelegant all around. In all, you've got a Necromantic Path that's only occasionally useful in certain situations, and even then it's not really knock-your-socks-off powerful.

The newer version, on the other hand, pulls thematic ties and titles from old Nihilistics, rebuilds the Path's effects to shift them to lower levels, and borrows some of the better mechanical powers from Orpheus (bringing it full-circle just a tad). It's useful, it's powerful, and it's something that fits the Nagarajah's setting fluff a bit more, I think.

Fair enough this version does feel a lot more like Nihilistics, which is not a bad thing at all.

Odd note: It seems all the special Necromantic Disciplines were merged into Necromancy but Thanatosis. That is odd. Mortis and Diemos and Nihilistics were absorbed, but not Thanatosis.

[enlyzer]

Am I the only one who's disappointed with the fact that WW did not actually update the game's setting? In the "What's in it?" section of V20's launch page, they wrote:

• Updated setting to the modern nights (as if the early 1990s weren't modern :P)

Well, maybe my eyesight is failing, but I didn't see anything on the first chapter (or the storyteller's) actually bringing Vampire's Gothic-Punk ethos to the 2010s. As someone who played the 2nd and 3rd editions, that was actually the feature I was most eager to see. Except for some brief mentions to social media and tablet computers, V20 is still stuck in that perpetual 1990s we all remember.

I wanted to see tips and a little bit of scenario on how to set a V20 campaign now, after the 2008 crisis, after 9/11, after Facebook. Vampire was so quintessentially 1990s that I though that a contemporary setting would make the "anniversary" edition less than a nostalgia-fest and more of a reaffirmation of Vampire's awesomeness.

[BaronSamedi]

Yep, True Brujah is the first thing I looked at and gotta say I like the changes to both them and Temporis.

I liked they kept the Revised Setite-Trujah connection (which is odd since the destruction of the Tal'mahe'Ra was not discussed which lead to the the connection, but whateva) . They made for interesting bedfellows, and it seemed to work with the Revised Setite "take" as keepers of ancient lore.

[CowboyEnergy]

On the subject of a CWoD Wraith...

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/list/000/113/257/shut%20up.jpg?1302591990

[BaronSamedi]

Am I the only one who's disappointed with the fact that WW did not actually update the game's setting? In the "What's in it?" section of V20's launch page, they wrote:

• Updated setting to the modern nights (as if the early 1990s weren't modern :P)

Well, maybe my eyesight is failing, but I didn't see anything on the first chapter (or the storyteller's) actually bringing Vampire's Gothic-Punk ethos to the 2010s. As someone who played the 2nd and 3rd editions, that was actually the feature I was most eager to see. Except for some brief mentions to social media and tablet computers, V20 is still stuck in that perpetual 1990s we all remember.

Well they made it clear the theme and mood were going to be very classic Masquerade. I did see some conceits here and there of the actual timeline though. What was there did update. I think the Companion is getting a chapter on that too.

[TechnocratJT]

I liked they kept the Revised Setite-Trujah connection (which is odd since the destruction of the Tal'mahe'Ra was not discussed which lead to the the connection, but whateva) . They made for interesting bedfellows, and it seemed to work with the Revised Setite "take" as keepers of ancient lore.

I thought that call was actually very undedtandable. The Tal'maha'Ra are mentioned as very much still around, and have their fortress intact ( and they still shelter a fair Humber of 5th and 4th gen vampires). As much as I loved Wraith in every way the end of the True Hand was another one of those " this sucked, you sucked for liking it, and now they are dead" that was very tiring for a long time.

Since the Setites are not simply bad guys anymore it's a great connection to keep ( it also has some nice cultural under pinnings too if you consider the two groups origins) but it was shorn clean of meta plot which served mostly to snicker at people for liking the wrong thing. Lots of that in the book really, meta plot reduced to plot hooks. Obnoxious meta plot ( all the anarchs in California are dead or on the run, HahHaha) kinda ignored.

Even the Time of Thin Blood events are mentioned as narrative options not fixed truth. WW has learned a lot during nWoD and it makes this possible the best Vampire book they have done.

Oh: to answer an above question. Eat a hitmark take agg damage and get no refill. Friends don't let friends eats cyborgs it seems.

[TechnocratJT]

Yep, True Brujah is the first thing I looked at and gotta say I like the changes to both them and Temporis.

Well, again I know I am beating this horse a lot, but Temporis is a good example of what they have learned. It is crazy powerful again but now has very nasty drawbacks that can lead to killing yourself from overuse. Time manipulation has a cost and is the type of stuff that could cause you to eat power source bigger than head and explode.

What it is not, thankfully, is a pile of junk powers with huge costs. Which is what it was last time.

[I Hate All Life]

Well, again I know I am beating this horse a lot, but Temporis is a good example of what they have learned. It is crazy powerful again but now has very nasty drawbacks that can lead to killing yourself from overuse. Time manipulation has a cost and is the type of stuff that could cause you to eat power source bigger than head and explode.

What it is not, thankfully, is a pile of junk powers with huge costs. Which is what it was last time.
No. That's what it was in 2nd Ed. Last time -- in Revised -- Temporis existed in its current incarnation.

[Rachel Cartacos]

Oh: to answer an above question. Eat a hitmark take agg damage and get no refill. Friends don't let friends eats cyborgs it seems.

Ah thank you.

Seems similar to what was suggested would happen in Revived if you ate a techno-mage.

[Zeea]

Tis true.

V20 embraces a number of things like this. Look at the XP charts, they are more in line with Vampire 2nd than Vampire revised. Though that could be failing memory.

Actually, it's the same chart as Revised.

[CowboyEnergy]

Ah thank you.

Seems similar to what was suggested would happen in Revived if you ate a techno-mage.

Makes sense that they'd have countermeasures against Vampires, since the Technocracy must know that they exist.

[Bree-Yark]

Sorry but 20 pages is too much to sift through. Anyone else not like the changes to Celerity? If they used the identical system as Potence (bonus dice and blood for conversion to auto) that would be enough, but extra un-split actions? Yikes.

[Yo! Master]

The thing with Generation as a Background is that it very much ends a deliberate choice, a statement even, by the player.

Generation is so good you're practically making a decision not to play 8th Gen when making a PC. It's because other levels of Gen carry setting elements with them & informs the character: an 8th Gen vamp can't really be the childe of some random vamp, it carries pedigree (unless Diablerie, which yet again informs the character & their background), or the sense of being lower in the pyramid with crappy Generation.

And lets be honest, seeing random 8th Gen vamps for PCs can be a bit of a warning bell. It was one of the very first, back in the day in a chronicle we started & for which we reached out to find new players (through an add), when all 3 of them made 8th Gen characters.

[Angry Ghost]

The thing with Generation as a Background is that it very much ends a deliberate choice, a statement even, by the player.

Generation is so good you're practically making a decision not to play 8th Gen when making a PC. It's because other levels of Gen carry setting elements with them & informs the character: an 8th Gen vamp can't really be the childe of some random vamp, it carries pedigree (unless Diablerie, which yet again informs the character & their background), or the sense of being lower in the pyramid with crappy Generation.

And lets be honest, seeing random 8th Gen vamps for PCs can be a bit of a warning bell. It was one of the very first, back in the day in a chronicle we started & for which we reached out to find new players (through an add), when all 3 of them made 8th Gen characters.

I gave my new players a choice, that they all started at a gen between 8 and 10 (didn't tell them what) and would recieve 5 freebie points per generation gain (i.e. going 9 to 10 would net them 5). I ended up with two 10th gens and an 11 generation.

But as a background in general, I don't mind. Mainly because I allow people to buy backgrounds with 7 points which they get to keep (pretty much don't allow to be taken from them) and then give them bonus background points (which can be Storyteller messed with) depending on background.

I find it very hard to allow characters to only have 5 background points + the use of some freebie points and expect them to sculpt a well rounded character. I find they want to take max generation and then hit resources and that's about it.

But, you know, I always find generation an easy fix. It's all depending on what kind of game you're going to run.

I resent V20 still having 1's remove successes, I always run it that no successes and a 1 is a botch (and that happens often enough) otherwise 1's have no effect. But in the end, pretty easy fix for my game. I don't actually find bending rules in any storyteller game too difficult, but I can understand why folk get riled over Generation both for and against it as a background (or in general to be honest)

[andreww]

there's some tremere rituals I would have liked to see, I don't like the fact 1's still remove successes still - I'll never use that but I do like the potence/celerity re-write and glad to see three types of damage are back, rather than just two "/ and X"
So let me get this straight. WW has kept:

Botch inducing negative 1's
Generation as a Background
Character creation with dots but
Advancement via xp with differential costs

While not wanting to harsh on anyone's parade it does feel as if the last twenty years have simply passed the writers by.

[Angry Ghost]

So let me get this straight. WW has kept:

Botch inducing negative 1's
Generation as a Background
Character creation with dots but
Advancement via xp with differential costs

While not wanting to harsh on anyone's parade it does feel as if the last twenty years have simply passed the writers by.

not really - it's a homage and celebration of the last 20 years. If they wanted to change it all and come out with a new game then they would have re-written it from scratch, kept a few elements from it but otherwise come up with a new game and named it Vampire:the Requiem or something.

Honestly though, there are some changes that are going to piss folk off, some things left out that others wanted in and remnants of others that folk wanted to have been changed.

That's inevitable.

I for one love a lot of the changes, am very happy that damage is recorded with /, x and * (rather than the /, X of revised - and people argue that's not true, it is, look it up) and I actually Love the physical disciplines and general clarification of it all - but, more than this, I am falling in love, all over again with Masquerade. I find that this book is a love letter to role playing, it's fans and everything that Vampire was about.

[UnderJollyRoger]

Sorry but 20 pages is too much to sift through. Anyone else not like the changes to Celerity? If they used the identical system as Potence (bonus dice and blood for conversion to auto) that would be enough, but extra un-split actions? Yikes.

Well, from the quick look I had through my PDF, you're probably right ...

I like the bonus dice for Dexterity rolls and that you loose them when you take the extra actions. Still, one blood point for as much extra actions as you have Celerity is pretty rough (we used the latest Dark Age-version in VTM, one blood point per extra action).

If I get this right, a character with Celerity 4 can take 1+2 actions per turn for one blood point and make each attack roll with +2 dice ... this still makes Celerity the usual overpowered combat skill ... I would at least charge one blood point per action, not for the whole package.

[UnderJollyRoger]

but, more than this, I am falling in love, all over again with Masquerade. I find that this book is a love letter to role playing, it's fans and everything that Vampire was about.

Man, I was just thinking the same and haven't even read the book :)


Edit: Sorry for two posts in a row. Note to self: have to find out how to make two quotes in one post.

[Mozart]

If I get this right, a character with Celerity 4 can take 1+2 actions per turn for one blood point and make each attack roll with +2 dice ... this still makes Celerity the usual overpowered combat skill ... I would at least charge one blood point per action, not for the whole package.
I think you are misreading it, you spend one blood point per action.


In addition the player can spend one blood point for an extra action up to the number of dots he has in Celerity. This expenditure can go beyond her normal Generation maximum

[Angry Ghost]

I think you are misreading it, you spend one blood point per action. that's how I read it too. I like it too, it involves a little strategy on how you are going to use it.

now...on another note..

the gangrel temporary animal trait after frenzy...is this temporary until the storyteller says so or until next frenzy (as I read it)?
If the latter then I would say that the first ever time they frenzy they gain a permanent animal aspect to them that manifests as different animalistic traits each time they frenzy (and sometimes stay permanently)

[Kaiju Keiichi]

The thing with Generation as a Background is that it very much ends a deliberate choice, a statement even, by the player.

Generation is so good you're practically making a decision not to play 8th Gen when making a PC. It's because other levels of Gen carry setting elements with them & informs the character: an 8th Gen vamp can't really be the childe of some random vamp, it carries pedigree (unless Diablerie, which yet again informs the character & their background), or the sense of being lower in the pyramid with crappy Generation.

And lets be honest, seeing random 8th Gen vamps for PCs can be a bit of a warning bell. It was one of the very first, back in the day in a chronicle we started & for which we reached out to find new players (through an add), when all 3 of them made 8th Gen characters.

It's the kind of situation where in every Masquerade game I run I *must* house rule how I am handling Generation.

@Rachel - Sure, it's only 5 Blood points, but it's also the ability to spend triple per turn what you'd normally be able to spend, and one Diablerie step later, you can get Disciplines and Stats at 6 (7th Gen). *That* is why everyone takes it.

[Yo! Master]

Also it is a big deal when it comes to Dominate & Presence.

[UnderJollyRoger]

I think you are misreading it, you spend one blood point per action.

I stand corrected :)

[Mostlyjoe]

One thing that made me giggle -

In the Magi NPC descriptions, the words 'Magick' and 'Magickal' are used all over the place. I remember that when MageRev came out, I was openly mocked for bemoaning the loss of a cool, and, fuck it all, gothic word for sorcery.

I hope they keep the term for M20. ;)

You take that Verbenna inspired special K magic nonsense and put it right back on the cup board young man. In this household the proper term is SCIENCE!, now eat your steam punk reality breaking nonsense and like it. :)

[zenten]

So are Attributes still capped absolutely at 10, regardless of Generation or blood expenditure?

[Rachel Cartacos]

an 8th Gen vamp can't really be the childe of some random vamp, it carries pedigree (unless Diablerie, which yet again informs the character & their background),.

I don't agree.

The only thing it signifies is that your sire was 7th Generation. Generation is automatic and doesn't need to be earned.

[Kaiju Keiichi]

You take that Verbenna inspired special K magic nonsense and put it right back on the cup board young man. In this household the proper term is SCIENCE!, now eat your steam punk reality breaking nonsense and like it. :)

Damn Etherite steampunk nonsense, getting into everything!

I'm sure that the Ethers claim Chris Eccleston, David Tennant and Matt Smith the same way that the Akashics claim Bruce Lee, and when Dr Who comes on the air all the activity in the Laboratory stops as giddy Ethers gather round the telly to watch Matt and Karen fly across time and space!

[Mostlyjoe]

That might be. I always thought the special K was the Traditions throwing up a smoke screen at the difference between Hedge magic and Spheres magic.

[Yo! Master]

I don't agree.

The only thing it signifies is that your sire was 7th Generation. Generation is automatic and doesn't need to be earned.

Sure, it isn't that your sire could not just happen to be low Gen themselves.

You or them or someone down the bloodline could be a heat of the moment Embrace of some Elder ('shortening' the line a few steps). Or it could be an Embrace of convenience for the modern age. Or you could come from a groomed mortal bloodline. Or, like i mentioned, Diablerie could be involved by someone (again 'shortening' the line a few steps). Or all sorts of other stuff; there isn't a sort amount of different justifications.

Yes, it doesn't have to be earned in any way - both in the fiction level & for you as a player - but like any Background (& more than most, probably) it carries all sorts of meaning for your character, it's their story, it's story-hooks, it tells something about them, whether low or high.

Because it's automatic as a game rule does not mean it's devoid of space in the setting & the story (though, not necessarily a given piece of story - the player & ST are the ones who do the definition). It's context.

It will be important for some PCs, it will not be important for others. But even in the latter case i'd rather that be a deliberate choice by the player, instead of "i'm 8th Gen just because" (& with the implied "because it's powerful").


P.S. Huh, WotG's / LotW's Loresheets suddenly come to mind. It's exactly this narrative elements they offer buy-in (or not, if they player does not want for them to have narrative importance to their story / the game).

[Mozart]

I don't agree.

The only thing it signifies is that your sire was 7th Generation. Generation is automatic and doesn't need to be earned.
I think the point is that a 7th Generation sire isn't likely to be an unremarkable nobody, so an 8th generation childe probably comes with a lot of baggage by way of his relations and the various allies and enemies of his new family.

Of course, I always liked the idea of playing an 8th Generation Caitiff of a fairly prestigious sire. On the one hand the sire doesn't want his peers thinking that his blood is defective so must either kill the childe or cover up the truth, and given that this is a PC he would have opted for the cover up, at least to start. But it raises questions for the child - what does it mean to be Caitiff? If it isn't just a symptom of weak blood then can it be something else? Perhaps the childe would decide that freedom from the taint of a clan was indicative of stronger and/or purer blood.

Plenty of scope for experimentation either way, but crucially, you couldn't really drop a low generation PC into a game without that Generation having some impact, even if the impact was just that the PC had to pretend to be less potent than he was.

[I Hate All Life]

I agree that doesn't make sense for each player to max out Generation and start at Eighth (save for in games set in Ancient Egypt or something), unless Vampire is just a numbers game to you and you don't pay much heed to the setting. So yeah, the rules for acquiring Generation don't really mesh well with what the game says neonates should be. But rules can be tweaked, people, and Storytellers might restrict Generation in some way that makes sense for their games. For example, you might make Generation a 1 to 7-point Merit instead of a Background (I do that), with each drop in generation costing one point up to Generations Nine and Eight, which cost extra -- so Eighth Generation costs 7 Freebie. (It's well worth it, and some players will still pay it.) Or, you can make Generation a 1 to 5-point Merit, so the cap for starting players is 10th.

Or you can simply let the consequences of dumping points into Generation play out in the game. If your coterie is composed of a bunch of low generation Kindred, it becomes Target Number One for diablerists and jealous Kindred. (It's not a difficult matter to determine generation unless everyone's sire is publicly unknown, and if that's the case you're considered Caitiff/Pander and thus crap.) This isn't punishing the players, so no one whine about that please, it's just enforcing the reality of the setting. Being low generation has its perks, but it has its drawbacks too.

I like Generation itself, however. No, it's not fair. No, it's not balanced. No, it's not a finely tuned game mechanic. But I see these as features, not bugs. Generation is part of the setting, and it reflects the inherent unfairness and desperation of the setting. If you want something more fair, go play Requiem or something. If you want to play Masquerade, embrace (or Embrace) the inherent unfairness of it all and just go with it. And having a high generation that you can't hope to improve outside diablerie doesn't have to be misery tourist attraction if your character just isn't concerned about it. You don't get a lot for being a higher generation vampire, but then you don't have a bunch of cannibals gunning for your heart's blood either.

[ADamiani]

It's the kind of situation where in every Masquerade game I run I *must* house rule how I am handling Generation.

@Rachel - Sure, it's only 5 Blood points, but it's also the ability to spend triple per turn what you'd normally be able to spend, and one Diablerie step later, you can get Disciplines and Stats at 6 (7th Gen). *That* is why everyone takes it.

I didn't usually take it. Either I get to spend a couple extra blood per turn OR I can have millions of dollars to bribe my way out of trouble, or be close personal friends with the Justicar? It's not like I generally expect to be able to diablerize a 7th gen most of the time. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever managed diablerie in Vampire; always seemed waaaaaaay too easy to detect with auspex-- like painting a 'stake me' sign on your aura.


Of course, now that I need to spend more per turn for Celerity, that might be different.

[Mostlyjoe]

I'm assuming the pdf is finally up for sale correct?

Edit: Reviews DriveThru, ah no. Pre order folk. Don't mind me I'll sulk off to us non-preorder gheto.

[Propagandor]

I didn't usually take it. Either I get to spend a couple extra blood per turn OR I can have millions of dollars to bribe my way out of trouble, or be close personal friends with the Justicar? It's not like I generally expect to be able to diablerize a 7th gen most of the time. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever managed diablerie in Vampire; always seemed waaaaaaay too easy to detect with auspex-- like painting a 'stake me' sign on your aura.


Of course, now that I need to spend more per turn for Celerity, that might be different.

celerity is exempt from generation limits for spending blood

[Kaiju Keiichi]

I like Generation itself, however. No, it's not fair. No, it's not balanced. No, it's not a finely tuned game mechanic. But I see these as features, not bugs. Generation is part of the setting, and it reflects the inherent unfairness and desperation of the setting. If you want something more fair, go play Requiem or something. If you want to play Masquerade, embrace (or Embrace) the inherent unfairness of it all and just go with it. And having a high generation that you can't hope to improve outside diablerie doesn't have to be misery tourist attraction if your character just isn't concerned about it. You don't get a lot for being a higher generation vampire, but then you don't have a bunch of cannibals gunning for your heart's blood either.

The issue of it is that it leads to players playing characters that subvert the game text - Neonate PCs in Masquerade are supposed to be weaklings whose throats are always under the feet of their vampiric Elders. It's also supposed to somewhat represent the method by which Lestat gains immense, nearly godlike power in the Anne Rice books. Also, when the in-setting effects a particular background cascade onto the backgrounds of other PCs (for example, the trials of a low-gen PC getting other higher gen PCs into trouble), it can be a bug, not a feature. Further, Generation has distinct effects on combat and character advancement. I've seen players in some Cam games load up on Gen for precisely the reason that you can't get it anywhere else besides Chargen or murder, as opposed to in Requiem, where you can buy Blood Potency with XP. The Generation mechanics as they standard are not unfair or fair, they make players not act like the way Neonates are described as acting.

One possible way to discourage PCs to dump all of their points into Generation is to add requirements - PCs must take a matching number of points in Mentor, Ally or Status equal to what they spend in Generation. Low generation vampires must have friends when they are fledgelings or they will be devoured or blood bound in short order. A weak, unprotected low generation Neonate to an ambitious Ancilla is walking take out, and needs more than just a coterie of PCs to protect him or her. Diablerizing a fledge or Neonate with strong blood can be just the thing to vault a powerful yet thin blooded Ancilla into Elder status.

[Matt.Ceb]

I'm assuming the pdf is finally up for sale correct?

Nope, end of October.

We're all just the damned geeks who per-ordered or went to the GM. ;)

[I Hate All Life]

The issue of it is that it leads to players playing characters that subvert the game text - Neonate PCs in Masquerade are supposed to be weaklings whose throats are always under the feet of their vampiric Elders. It's also supposed to somewhat represent the method by which Lestat gains immense, nearly godlike power in the Anne Rice books. Also, when the in-setting effects a particular background cascade onto the backgrounds of other PCs (for example, the trials of a low-gen PC getting other higher gen PCs into trouble), it can be a bug, not a feature. Further, Generation has distinct effects on combat and character advancement. I've seen players in some Cam games load up on Gen for precisely the reason that you can't get it anywhere else besides Chargen or murder, as opposed to in Requiem, where you can buy Blood Potency with XP. The Generation mechanics as they standard are not unfair or fair, they make players not act like the way Neonates are described as acting.
I concede to all this. Generation itself isn't as problematic as the character creation rules in regards to Generation. Which is a sticking issue for me: How do I fix it...?


One possible way to discourage PCs to dump all of their points into Generation is to add requirements - PCs must take a matching number of points in Mentor, Ally or Status equal to what they spend in Generation. Low generation vampires must have friends when they are fledgelings or they will be devoured or blood bound in short order. A weak, unprotected low generation Neonate to an ambitious Ancilla is walking take out, and needs more than just a coterie of PCs to protect him or her. Diablerizing a fledge or Neonate with strong blood can be just the thing to vault a powerful yet thin blooded Ancilla into Elder status.
This is a great idea. :) I'm seriously going to give this one some thought. Thanks, Kaiu. (Though I still feel Generation should be a Merit instead of a Background.)

[Egarwaen]

I concede to all this. Generation itself isn't as problematic as the character creation rules in regards to Generation. Which is a sticking issue for me: How do I fix it...?


This is a great idea. :) I'm seriously going to give this one some thought. Thanks, Kaiu. (Though I still feel Generation should be a Merit instead of a Background.)

I think changing Generation to a Merit does a lot to balance it. Merits are explicitly optional, and tend to be small tweaks to make you better at something you're already good at. They're not setting-defining in the same way Backgrounds are. Allies, Contacts, Influence, Mentor, and Resources, in particular, hook your character into the immediate setting of your game in a way that Generation doesn't, or at least, doesn't quite so easily.

(To be fair, there's a similar complaint in most nWoD games. Spending 6 of 7 Merit Points on Power Stat is too tempting, given the huge XP costs of Power Stat and the massive benefits. Apparently there's a very common house rule that doubles the number of starting Merit points but keeps the cap of 6 spent on Power Stat.)

[BaronSamedi]

I've never seen Generation as all that problematic. If this were a different setting, sure, but Vampire is, by design, an innately unfair setting. it fits.

The only time it is a problem is if a player is not properly briefed on the advantages and disadvantages of generation.

[Bree-Yark]

I think changing Generation to a Merit does a lot to balance it. Merits are explicitly optional, and tend to be small tweaks to make you better at something you're already good at. They're not setting-defining in the same way Backgrounds are. Allies, Contacts, Influence, Mentor, and Resources, in particular, hook your character into the immediate setting of your game in a way that Generation doesn't, or at least, doesn't quite so easily.

(To be fair, there's a similar complaint in most nWoD games. Spending 6 of 7 Merit Points on Power Stat is too tempting, given the huge XP costs of Power Stat and the massive benefits. Apparently there's a very common house rule that doubles the number of starting Merit points but keeps the cap of 6 spent on Power Stat.)

Sorry, but I don't see the difference in making it a merit as opposed to a background. If the GM wants to use Merits they're in, if the GM wants to exclude Generation it's out. There's no functional difference between them. Restricted to at character creation as a Merit? Well, yeah, but so is generation. Except in diablerie.

[Kaiju Keiichi]

I've never seen Generation as all that problematic. If this were a different setting, sure, but Vampire is, by design, an innately unfair setting. it fits.

The only time it is a problem is if a player is not properly briefed on the advantages and disadvantages of generation.

Please, don't reframe. The issue is not whether it's unfair, the issue is whether or not it represents the text. PCs rocket ahead of NPCs in Discipline development due to XP awards, and enabling the PCs to start as effectively powerful as Elders makes them effectively Elders. Also, the game doesn't brief us on "advantages" or "disadvantages" of Generation - we have only the stated game effects to go by. By that measure that are a much more effecient cost buy than any other advantage, much like Perfect Defenses in Exalted. You can always get Resources or Allies or Mentors or Status later - the mechanics push you into getting Generation at Chargen, because you only need to commit successful diablerie once to get those sweet level 6 Disciplines,while if you start at 13th Generation you need to do the same 5 times to get to the same point. And any smart player will want to get as much power as they can, even if they're an altruist. It even makes more sense if you want to retain your Humanitas - you need only commit the heinous crime once.

Another possible house rule - do what Exalted does, and do not allow PCs to get Disciplines or stats at 6, unless they have been awake 100 years. This I think solves a good chunk of the Generation dilemma - although burning 5 blood a turn and having a pool of 20 is a damn tough advantage in and of itself.

One final thing - while in the setting, things don't have to be fair, outside of it, a game must be. The oomph in-game oomph I get from buying a point of resources with a Background or Freebie point should be the same as I get from spending it on any other Background, including Generation. If it isn't, I'll go buy whatever is more effective and allows me more utility in the setting.

[Yo! Master]

Sorry, but I don't see the difference in making it a merit as opposed to a background.

I concur.

[Marc17]

I don't see the issue really with Generation. For character backstory reasons, I took nothing it in it all once, and it really wasn't that big a deal. The lack of burning more than one blood per round usually means that you just aren't starved for blood because you dumped everything you could at the first sign of combat.* I've never seen a character get to the experience level where not being able to get the 6th dot was an inhibition. The extra blood points are good, but no more than any other background, or should I say that the usual issue I see would be other backgrounds not being as important as Generation.

Certainly, Resources five and being essentially a multi-millionaire has its in game advantages. Car gets wrecked, just buy a new one. The zero Resources vampire will have to steal one (and deal with the risk that involves) or go to the Prince or some other vampire and ask for a boon to get the car or money. Mentor, Influence, Retainers, etc all have huge advantages. If they aren't as powerful as the mechanically defined advantages as given by Generation, it's not that Generation is too powerful, but that your ST is screwing you over on the other backgrounds you bought.

While on the topic of backgrounds, I must say that there are some I have never seen bought. Never seen a PC with Fame, for example. Seems like a huge pain in the ass as far as masquerade breach. Not sure what exactly would give you really. Going by my own guidelines, I'd have to make a five Fame as useful as a five Generation (but in different situations, and then leave it up to the PC to get into the proper situations and not prevent them from doing so). Probably act like a low grade Presence and Resources for short periods of time. I've seen celebrities and people faking being celebrities IRL and people and businesses will do some outstanding stuff for those people: free room and board, free services, credit, pretty girls on arms at all times, etc.

Also, Status is a fairly unused but can be just as powerful as Generation. Five dots in 2E made you a Prince IIRC. Sure, you might be the Prince of Longview, Texas, but within your domain, by that Traditions upheld by the Camarilla, you were absolute ruler. You could call bloodhunts and diablerize those people all you wanted to raise your generation.

*Certainly, there are disciplines that would demand more blood, like Protean. I usually stayed away from those and went with ones with no blood cost. If I was specifically heading for something like a Gangrel with high Protean and that changes to mist often, I'd probably also look at a low generation as needed.

[BaronSamedi]

Please, don't reframe. The issue is not whether it's unfair, the issue is whether or not it represents the text. PCs rocket ahead of NPCs in Discipline development due to XP awards, and enabling the PCs to start as effectively powerful as Elders makes them effectively Elders.

You state a good point there.


Also, the game doesn't brief us on "advantages" or "disadvantages" of Generation - we have only the stated game effects to go by. By that measure that are a much more effecient cost buy than any other advantage, much like Perfect Defenses in Exalted. You can always get Resources or Allies or Mentors or Status later - the mechanics push you into getting Generation at Chargen, because you only need to commit successful diablerie once to get those sweet level 6 Disciplines,while if you start at 13th Generation you need to do the same 5 times to get to the same point. And any smart player will want to get as much power as they can, even if they're an altruist. It even makes more sense if you want to retain your Humanitas - you need only commit the heinous crime once.

I find most player do try to buy down their generation as much as possible (I just don't take issue with it) but they don't seem to do so intending to diablorize anyone. Usually. Some characters do but they are something of an exception.

[Rachel Cartacos]

unless Vampire is just a numbers game to you and you don't pay much heed to the setting.

I do pay heed to the setting, and the setting says that Generation has nothing to do with age.

You are one generation higher than your sire. Period.

13th Generation vamps could have been around in Enoch, and a 2nd Generation vamp could be created today if Caine decides to take another childe.

This is how the setting and mechanics state Generation works.

[Bree-Yark]

I do pay heed to the setting, and the setting says that Generation has nothing to do with age.

You are one generation higher than your sire. Period.

13th Generation vamps could have been around in Enoch, and a 2nd Generation vamp could be created today if Caine decides to take another childe.

This is how the setting and mechanics state Generation works.

You are right about chronological age of course, but to be fair, there is also a fair amount of bias based on higher generations. "Weak-blooded" and all that.

[nikink]

Celerity circumventing the blood point per turn generational limit has always bugged me. Why bother having a generational limit if you're just going to ignore it?

[gtrmp]

I'd houseruled Generation and Virtues so that you had nine dots to divide between the lot of them during chargen (up to five dots in any one), and a dot of Generation cost as many freebie points as a dot of a Virtue. So your default 13th-gen neonate would have an average of four dots in each Virtue before freebies, and your typical system-savvy player's neonate could be 8th-gen but would only have 2 dots in two Virtues and 3 dots in the third. That vampire who wants to diablerize his way down to 7th gen straight out of chargen suddenly isn't quite as cocksure about his chances of coming out of the experience with his soul intact.

[Bree-Yark]

In my experience it's the ones who don't buy generation who are most amped to start draining their way to the top. And I quote: "Why pay for what's free. That vamp over there... He's got my gen in his neck." They then spend those background points on other things like resources, etc.

[Icon]

In my experience it's the ones who don't buy generation who are most amped to start draining their way to the top. And I quote: "Why pay for what's free. That vamp over there... He's got my gen in his neck." They then spend those background points on other things like resources, etc.

Sounds like a demand by the player for all the social ramifications of having black veins in one's aura. Of course in a Sabbat chronicle such may be acceptable.

[James Gillen]

Celerity circumventing the blood point per turn generational limit has always bugged me. Why bother having a generational limit if you're just going to ignore it?

Because either Celerity or the Generation system is broken. Given how they wrote Blood Potency in Requiem and nerfed Celerity, I'd say both.

JG

[Yo! Master]

I do pay heed to the setting, and the setting says that Generation has nothing to do with age.

You are one generation higher than your sire. Period.

13th Generation vamps could have been around in Enoch, and a 2nd Generation vamp could be created today if Caine decides to take another childe.

This is how the setting and mechanics state Generation works.

And technically both the rules & the setting (because in actual Real Life (tm) there are people exactly like that) state that you can start with Dexterity 5, Firearms 5, Celerity 5, & Resources 5 to be some some uber-snipper or something.

It still doesn't mean that the above shouldn't have context. ;)

[UnderJollyRoger]

Has anyone figured out how the Celerity-bonus works with initiative rolls ? The book states that the bonus dots are applied to the roll IF they are not used for extra actions ... but maybe I want to decide if and how much of my extra actions I use after my roll ?!?

Seems a little confusing ...

[Bree-Yark]

Unless you've made that choice before the combat starts for some reason, then you'd have to make that choice on your turn which is after initiative is already rolled. Reads clear in the book to me.

[Mozart]

Or you can simply let the consequences of dumping points into Generation play out in the game. If your coterie is composed of a bunch of low generation Kindred, it becomes Target Number One for diablerists and jealous Kindred. (It's not a difficult matter to determine generation unless everyone's sire is publicly unknown, and if that's the case you're considered Caitiff/Pander and thus crap.) This isn't punishing the players, so no one whine about that please, it's just enforcing the reality of the setting. Being low generation has its perks, but it has its drawbacks too.
Agreed. If I created a relatively low gen neonate and didn't have to deal with complications arising from jealous higher gen peers and elders who felt obliged to respect the strength of my blood but loathed having to give any attention to a weaker vampire then I'd feel short changed. That wouldn't stop me from doing it, though.

But I think the same applies to anything that a player puts chargen resources into. If I had a mentor then I would want that mentor to be a feature of the game, and I'd expect to be helping my mentor at least as much as he helped me. If I put the points into resources then I would expect the apparent wealth of my character to do more than make it easy to buy a new car. I'd want pressure from junior Ventrue who needed an investor, or from a Toreador harpy looking to boost my reputation if I agreed to help her host an unforgettably extravagant party (and threatening to destroy me if I didn't).

Why should generation be any different?

[Vidiian]

Celerity circumventing the blood point per turn generational limit has always bugged me. Why bother having a generational limit if you're just going to ignore it?

Because the limit does work fine for boosting physical stats, healing, most disciplines . . . ?

Exception proving the rule and all that.

[MrGonev5]

I'd houseruled Generation and Virtues so that you had nine dots to divide between the lot of them during chargen (up to five dots in any one), and a dot of Generation cost as many freebie points as a dot of a Virtue. So your default 13th-gen neonate would have an average of four dots in each Virtue before freebies, and your typical system-savvy player's neonate could be 8th-gen but would only have 2 dots in two Virtues and 3 dots in the third. That vampire who wants to diablerize his way down to 7th gen straight out of chargen suddenly isn't quite as cocksure about his chances of coming out of the experience with his soul intact.

Thats a pretty interesting way to do that. Might have to try it..

[The Scribbler]

I agree.

Also, apparently the PDF is available for general purchase now? Thought I saw an announcement about that today.

[BaronSamedi]

Yes the PDF is now available. POD is not yet but hopefully will be by November 2011. That is the target anyway.

[Kaiju Keiichi]

In my experience it's the ones who don't buy generation who are most amped to start draining their way to the top. And I quote: "Why pay for what's free. That vamp over there... He's got my gen in his neck." They then spend those background points on other things like resources, etc.

That way lies either vampires who drop into Wassail or GMs who don't enforce the Humanity rules. You drop 1 humanity dot automatically from each successful Diablerie attempt (V20, page 295). Your pal who wants to become an elder by eating his way to the top is going to become a monster in short order, especially if you restrict purcahse of the Generation background. If the Kindred in your game want to be inhuman monsters, make them pay for it.

[BedlamBoy]

I've finally got my copy of the PDF (the longest 45 seconds or so of my life!) and haven't had a chance to do much more than flick through it very quickly, flitting from one delighted "squee!" to another. I can't contain my excitement long enough to actually read it closely yet. I was wary about the Bradstreet clan portraits when they were first brought up on the development blog, but they're absolutely fantastic. If I have any little squibble, it's with the art for the actual clan and bloodline spreads. Timbrook's pieces look weird and anime-ish when colored like this, and Leif Jones' cartoony figures just don't fit the stylish visual experience of the rest of the book, IMHO. That said, I understand that Leif really stepped up to bat and helped them out when Joshua Timbrook wasn't able to finish his pieces, and I totally appreciate that. Still, I dig these pieces too -- Theo Bell looks awesome, the Ravnos signature character (Khalil?) continues to look both skeevy and hot, and whoa, is Ramona wielding a cricket bat? Nice. I'm liking the tweaks to clan weaknesses and especially the physical Disciplines (not sure about Celerity adding to Dex rolls, I may leave that out), and having so much Blood Magic compiled together makes me very happy.

Overall, I'm thrilled. I'll almost certainly get my hands on a POD copy when they become available, but I just couldn't wait until then. My sincere and abundant thanks go out to everyone who worked on this book, in art, writing, layout, publication, character sheet, you name it. Vampire was my first RPG love, and I'm thrilled to see the old girl looking so damn good all these years later. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to stare adoringly at my precious more.

[Castille]

Hahah! PDF is mine!
And I have to say that the picture of the Nosferatu on p...XX (checks) 21 is just fantastic. Now I fully want to play a Nos with frilly shirt and jeans. So that's one indication of the art being a success!
I'm only skimming, looking for what bits interest me and the new art, I'll do a full read of the thing tomorrow at work. Religious holiday! I cannot brain today, I have the vamp.

[ADamiani]

Hahah! PDF is mine!
And I have to say that the picture of the Nosferatu on p...XX (checks) 21 is just fantastic. Now I fully want to play a Nos with frilly shirt and jeans. So that's one indication of the art being a success!
I'm only skimming, looking for what bits interest me and the new art, I'll do a full read of the thing tomorrow at work. Religious holiday! I cannot brain today, I have the vamp.

I'm almost disappointed they didn't have one page at the back labeled "page XX", where they could put all the things that were supposed to be there, over the years....

[Castille]

I know they had it in CB: Malkavian Revised.
Aha! "page XX" is the secret file of the true WoD!

[Jadasc]

I'm almost disappointed they didn't have one page at the back labeled "page XX", where they could put all the things that were supposed to be there, over the years....

They did put it on the spine, though. Twenty years = XX. :)

[SurfMonkey]

Just got this myself... haven't fully digested it yet, but in a word, Wow. Makes me remember what an awesome game it was in its day. Already the ideas flow through my head like wine... I totally want to do a game with the politicking of the West Wing, but, y'know, with bloodsuckers instead of politicians. Actually, that's kinda the same, isn't it?

[Castille]

Yep, just finished skimming it myself.
I want... no, need to play this game! Alas, I'd probably end up GMing it.