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SRSDiscussion

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SRSDiscussion is a modded progressive-oriented forum for discussing issues of social justice. Our goal is to foster a welcoming space for the perspectives of minorities and marginalized people. Comments which are discordant with the ethos of social progressivism will be removed, and users who post in bad faith will be banned.
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1. Participate in good faith. SRSD is a progressive, feminist, antiracist, GSRM-positive, antiableist community. If you are not in accord with any one of these principles, you will be asked to leave.
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all 33 comments
[–]AFlatCap [score hidden]  (2 children)
I think you're running into an important question that I think should be discussed in general. However, allow me to reframe it a bit to make it a bit useful to our common discourse. What is "race" and why do we often define it in terms of these two subjectivities, white and PoC?
I think most SRSers understand that race is a social construct, and that this is constructed through a process known as racialization. Racialization being the process through which racial or ethnic identities to certain social relationships, groups, etc. I believe that the reason why this is so often simplified into categories such as white and PoC is because the most visible tensions in our societies often come between the socially dominant category of "white" (those who have been made white over time, this being distinguishable from any biologically-determined "shade", as white encompasses a broad category of people) and what we call "people of colour", which in American society is meant to group the issues of different racial groups, often in emic terms defined in terms of skin colour. This approach can lead to some issues, for example, in addressing some of the more finely granulated racializations (for instance, the racialization of African-Americans is fairly distinct from the racialization of the so-called "model minorities"). Another issue, more importantly for this case, is that Jewish people are still very clearly racialized to some degree, but cannot be defined as "people of colour" as it is a racialization specifically related to religion, similar to that of what we see in Islamophobia. This points to how "people of colour" is a very situational designation, though it is a very useful subjectivity at times. However, in a more general sense, race should be defined in terms of those who have been racialized and those who have been not. Otherwise, we neglect cases such as the burakumin in Japan, for example, who are ascribed difference in biological terms while not having a physical association with their subjugation as found in our personal contexts.
So, to answer your question I suppose, the terms of "white" and "PoC" are not particularly useful in this case, at least using those terms alone. Race is more complex than that. However, this does not mean those subjectivities can't interact with this case either, as noted in some links to /r/socialjustice101 elsewhere (the idea of "passing" as white, for example, or becoming white to some degree, though I wouldn't say that Jewish people have truly become white in American society, as the racial relation, as I suggested before, is more complex than that).
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (1 child)
Thanks for that response, because from my personal experience I have seen White and PoC used to lump very diverse groups under groups that describe as a whole especially in terms of privilege. Not meaning to stereotype.
[–]AFlatCap [score hidden]  (0 children)
Well, there in lies the importance of intersectionality, which is emphasized by spaces like this. Power relations in our societies are inherently complex. The reason why subjectivities like that are useful are because they are used in a context in which the diversity of these subjectivities and how they interact with other constructs are recognized. Keeping this in mind is invaluable to any critical analysis.
[–]PoopyParade [score hidden]  (2 children)
Even if OP is a troll (or not )
I'd love someone to post an answer relevant to his question, or perhaps a different post here in SRSD :)
[–]thpook [score hidden]  (10 children)
Their skin color is pretty irrelevant to their status as an historically oppressed people, as there are no good Jews in anti-Semitic philosophy. They are an oppressed ethnic minority, no matter if they present as PoC or white.
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (9 children)
Alright, but I asked the question since I have seen Jews to be said as either White or 'PoC' by different people who identify ideologically as this subreddit and related ones (The SRS Fempire). Also white is (correct me if I'm wrong) privileged and PoC considered unprivileged.
[–]thpook [score hidden]  (8 children)
Not to put too fine a point on it, if you're just interested in Jews as a group, they cover too broad a group of people. I mean, what about Ethiopian Jews? They are people of color. However, if you're asking about a particular grouping within the Judaic world then my honest opinion is that it isn't for people outside of the group to say. Whatever they identify as treat them the same way: with dignity and respect.
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (7 children)
Right, but ethnic Jews are descendants of the Israelites while religious Jews can be ethnic or not. So are the Iberian and Eastern European Jews considered white because of their location and skin color, although still being a minority and originally not European? And Eastern Jews considered PoC due to them being outside of Europe? Or is it just too complex of a race issue that the terms white and PoC are ultimately useless (as per /u/AFlatCap)?
Whatever they identify as treat them the same way: with dignity and respect.
I disagree with being able to identify as whatever you want racially but agree with treating them with dignity and respect. Thanks for the response though.
[–]AFlatCap [score hidden]  (4 children)
Or is it just too complex of a race issue that the terms white and PoC are ultimately useless
You might have missed my edit, but I noted that though this is a more complex case than those two subjectivities allow, it does not necessarily mean that that they cannot interact with this (after all, subjectivity implies that these are a part of the discourse which frames our discussions on race, and I don't mean just in contexts like this), just that taking a step back is useful in this.
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (3 children)
So basically white and PoC mean privileged and unprivileged. Jews face diverse situations where they can fall into the former, latter or somewhere in between, based on whether they are ethnic, religious, or both. Am I following correctly?
[–]AFlatCap [score hidden]  (2 children)
So basically white and PoC mean privileged and unprivileged.
In a sense, yes, but also no. The construction of "whiteness" is definitely associated with dominance in American and European society. It is a power class for sure. However, by virtue of intersectionality, while being white affords you some privilege, it doesn't mean you can't fall under some power relation (your gender, sexuality, gender identity, etc. can also be involved). As well, they aren't the only racial subjectivities around, making things a bit more complex. So "privileged" and "unprivileged" are not really a useful way to think about power, and not really how privilege is meant to be used. When people like SRSers talk about privilege, people are not being firmly divided into "privileged" and "unprivileged". They are talking about what particular subjectivities afford to people within their societies, both negative and positive. A white woman in America has privilege due to her "race", but at once is subjectified by her gender. A burakumin man in Japan has these flipped, though he would fall under different racial relations than what we have here ("white" vs. "PoC"). Privilege is also not a net score or anything like that. The privileges afforded from being white in Western (note the capital, not the western hemisphere) societies are very different from the ones afforded from being a man, hence why they are on different axis, though they still interact (as in, it's not simply addition either, a black woman has unique things to deal with compared to a white woman and a black man added together). I hope this isn't too much, but I really wanted to get across what privilege actually means, as there is a lot of misinformation out there.
Jews face diverse situations where they can fall into the former, latter or somewhere in between, based on whether they are ethnic, religious, or both. Am I following correctly?
This is more on point. Relating to these particular subjectivities, this is absolutely correct. While Jewish people are usually defined in terms of a different set of racial subjectivities than what "white" and "PoC" can define, they can be affected by these subjectivities, as people in America society use them to define race to a certain degree, though not entirely, otherwise anti-Semitism wouldn't be a thing, hence the importance of other racial subjectivities. However, the existence of the racial subjectivities of white and PoC and discussion around them almost inevitably means that society will attempt to define Jewish people along these lines. In fact, this very post you've made here today is evidence of that.
I hope everything here is pretty clear, as this can be a pretty complex topic when you're going beyond basic details.
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (1 child)
Alright thank you for your time and responses. I think I have a better understanding of these beliefs which can be called by many names. While I do not agree with a lot of which was presented, I have accomplished my goal. Again, thank you.
[–]AFlatCap [score hidden]  (0 children)
Alright. An aside, I disagree with the notion that race is about identification, and I don't think that's what the person was trying to get across earlier. That has more to do with ethnicity (which can be conflated in a lot of cases admittedly, given how often these things are internalized). Race is more imposed. I would recommend doing some reading on racialization, the Wikipedia link given here because it's late and I can't be bothered when I'm about to go to bed. If you would like some academic writing on anything I've discussed, feel free to ask, here or via PM. There is a lot of literature to back this stuff up, and a lot of interesting complexities to examine.
[–]thpook [score hidden]  (1 child)
What I'm saying is that since I am not Jewish, it's not my place to tell them if they're white or people of color. It would be patronizing, at best.
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)
Alright thanks for your responses.
, it's not my place to tell them if they're white or people of color
I have seen people do this so I'm just asking.
[–]yellowmadgey [score hidden]  (15 children)
So are we<snip>
Well, first and foremost, you're a gamerbator and clearly not here in good faith. GTFO and have a nice day :)
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (13 children)
It's a genuine question because I try to understand people who have opposing views than I, because I'm curious on what people of this commonly shared ideology think about that question.
[–]OnlyMyFucks [score hidden]  (0 children)
I try to understand people who have opposing views than I
Lol, good fucking luck man. You have now experienced the SRS morons. How dare you want discussion in SRSDiscussion?!
[–]yellowmadgey [score hidden]  (11 children)
Reddit, what is something people do that is an instant turn-off for you?
As a straight white male, sexually wise: Black people. I just don't know the reason
You're not welcome here. (As a goodbye present, here's a clue on the reason: you're a racist asshole)
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (10 children)
Everyone has a preference sexually. You can go through my post history all you want, again I just came for the answer to the question, nothing else.
[–]scaredsquee [score hidden]  (9 children)
"preference" in this instance is codeword for "i am an asshole."
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (8 children)
I did not come here to defend my beliefs, but I will respond. People have different preferences that cover a great deal of things. This can range from race (my example and not dating whites), weight (too thin or too fat), religion (having one, having a specific one, or lack of one), political affiliation (typically ones opposite of you), and a whole lot of other things. Human sexuality is weird, and having a preference does not imply feeling of hate towards the group of people who do not fall within your preference, just that you aren't attracted to them.
[–]scaredsquee [score hidden]  (7 children)
weight (too thin or too fat)
this is changeable.
religion (having one, having a specific one, or lack of one)
this is changeable.
political affiliation (typically ones opposite of you),
this is changeable.
skin color is not changeable. the fact that you write off an entire race of people just because of "preference" is bullshit. justify it to yourself all you want, but bottom line is: you are a racist ass.
Human sexuality is weird, and having a preference does not imply feeling of hate towards the group of people who do not fall within your preference, just that you aren't attracted to them.
k
[–]VortuliKvariaVavaria[S] [score hidden]  (5 children)
skin color is not changeable. the fact that you write off an entire race of people just because of "preference" is bullshit. justify it to yourself all you want, but bottom line is: you are a racist ass.
Doesn't matter if it's changeable or not, that fact that it's present is the reason of lack of attraction. I don't chose what I'm attracted to or not, I just am this way. You can say that's racist, I say it isn't. That's pretty much it.
[–]scaredsquee [score hidden]  (4 children)
k
[–][deleted]  (3 children)
[deleted]
    [–]jb2706 [score hidden]  (0 children)
    Height is not changeable. Is it wrong to be not attracted to someone based on their height
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