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It's the police... (i.imgur.com)

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[–]gogowisco 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (23子コメント)

It's not a collectivist narrative, nor is it complicated.

Before and after WW2 the federal housing administration paid to have whites leave inner-city neighborhoods, by offering (exclusively) whites guaranteed below market-loans (to boost home-ownership). This is where the practice of redlining came from. When the whites left every every major city, they took the tax base and jobs with them. The funding for inner city schools plummeted, and jobs at a living wage were impossible to find- so the population starts shunning the useless education and many begin adopting the only viable career, selling drugs, which inevitably leads to an abnormal work-ethic (that supports violence, misogyny, etc.) And after a time, due to the war on drugs, family structure collapsed, as did a strong civil-society and community that once existed there. The point is, this was all caused because the gov explicitly favored whites.

It's not racist whites that causes violence (althought that certainly still exists), it's because there's a legacy of laws that are unjust towards blacks. Further, this isnt a past problem- unemployment in black neighborhoods never really recovered, nor did the quality of their public schools, and certainly there isnt any change in our drug laws that would help more black fathers stay at home. So it's hard to understand why we would expect blacks to do better given the same dismal circumstances.

It's not that this is the only acceptable narrative- it's the actual narrative, but please feel free to dispute any of the points i just made.

[–]dcman00000 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I wouldn't necessarily argue against this point. Its pretty good. I think argument should be amended from racism to government allowed racists to get their way. subtle but different.

[–]CGRW 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

...that's what institutional racism is...

[–]dcman00000 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

exactly

[–]Reddypony 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Problem was the govt officials 60 years ago were literally white racists. “There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others.”- Harry J. Anslinger, fist Comissioner of the Bureau of Narcotics in the 30s. Problem is is that he was supported by presidents of both parties, according to his wikipedia page.

[–]shakin_my_head 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (7子コメント)

So what's holding them back now? I worked with an illegal immigrant who made over a 100 K a year, owned a house, a car, etc. living the American dream in my opinion all the while working for a white man. No one I know cares what color you are as long as you keep your head down and work hard.

[–]gogowisco 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Like i said, nothing has changed vis-a-vis employment, schools, drug laws, etc. so at a general level, it wouldn't make sense to think that anything would change. Certainly there are blacks that manage to get out of the ghetto, and there are certainly blacks that are millionaires that were born in the ghetto- but our society tends to project the bad things individual blacks do on all blacks, while we never project the what the successful ones do, that are able to break free from the cycle of poverty, on all blacks- so there is a pervasive stereotype of lazy, violent blacks that doesnt exist for any other ethnic group. (something similar used to exist for the irish, polish, italians, etc. too, but gradually they began to be considered white, and the prejudice 'irish need not apply' faded away - however this has never happened for blacks - but certainly those ethnic groups were much poorer when the prejudice existed)

There are lots of reasons that it's harder to be black in america. There have been audit studies showing that just having a black name makes you far less likely to get a call-back for a job, even when submitting an identical resume as someone with a white name. source

And as far as comparing blacks with illegal immigrants - even organizations that hire day laborers - the worst type of employments there is - are far more likely to hire Hispanics because the stereotype for Hispanics is that they work hard, while the stereotype for blacks is that they're lazy and steal.

This is a complicated subject, but it's hard to argue that there isn't a prejudice against hiring blacks in this country, even with affirmative action. So while there are certainly anecdotes about people rising up against adversity, when we look at society as a whole, there are still many things holding blacks back.

[–]food_dudevp 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So much of the economy leaves with the white population when they move to suburban areas. Census data has proven that white desire to live in less diverse neighborhoods than minorities do and this has measurable effects on the lack of businesses (supermarkets in particular which can be measured in the health of the primarily black neighborhoods, and in jobs in general) and the lack of white people. It is this de jure racism that attacks areas of black health, black vitality, and black economy that the black community sees racism as an institutional problem. Policemen are seen as an enemy of the community because they represent a government that has ignored their pleas and incarcerates them for crimes of poverty. Policemen ARE AFRAID of black people. Constance Rice has proved this in her work and has gained much trust because she is working to educate policemen on the sources of blacks' criminalization. This has proved to create more trust in the policemen and the policed

[–]dont_get_pissyI'm a pissy troll 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I am not well read on this subject, and please excuse me from trying to sound like it. However, could a majority of the loans mentioned here,

by offering (exclusively) whites guaranteed below market-loans (to boost home-ownership),

have been offered to combat veterans? Maybe explaining why they weren't offered to blacks as much, due to the military's stance on blacks in uniform? As stated, I'm ignorant on the subject, just trying to understand.

[–]gogowisco 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No worries! The FHA came about through the National Housing Act of 1934, which was a direct response to the great depression. The focus was on boosting home ownership across the board (for whites), at a time when banks were refusing to lend out there money. After WWII, you are correct that there was a focus on helping veterans and their families find homes. However, that wasn't why blacks were denied the loans in the first place.

What it came down to was that in the 1930s, the Federal Housing Authority established mortgage underwriting standards that significantly discriminated against minority neighborhoods. As the significance of subsidized mortgage insurance on the housing market grew, home values in inner-city minority neighborhoods plummeted. but just as important, the approval rates for minorities were equally low. Further, after 1935 the FHA established guidelines to steer private mortgage investors away from minority areas. This practice (redlining), wasn't made illegal until 1968.

The point is, these practices had long-lasting effects on the black communities, due to the lack of ability to pass on wealth to subsequent generations, and while it probably didnt help that they were largely kept from participating in the armed forces, that's not really the reason they were denied loans in the first place.

[–]dont_get_pissyI'm a pissy troll 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

lend out there their money sorry

Thanks for clearing that up.

[–]MakeFlowers -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh boy.... /r/politics is leaking again...

I'll never be able to make a point on this topic as succinctly as Thomas Sowell, so here are some fun videos for you to be enlightened with.

Sowell owns

Sowell on Culture

Sowell on Race Fallacies

[–]food_dudevp 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]Loveflu 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

this was all caused because the gov explicitly favored whites.

White racism caused poverty. Blacks not responsible.

it's because there's a legacy of laws that are unjust towards blacks.

White racism caused black violence. Blacks not responsible.

So it's hard to understand why we would expect blacks to do better

Blacks not responsible.

Honestly, its like a parody of itself. You have every excuse mapped out because cherry picking history to fit a narrative is the easiest thing in the book.

Even taking what you said at face value (there is A LOT on both sides for each point) the point stands that blacks will never leave the thumb of racist liberals who look at them as incapable of succeeding. Racist liberals enacted the failed welfare state post 1950 and everything has continually deteriorated since then. The underlying theme?

Blacks are not responsible themselves.

Liberal elites know that taking responsibility is the key to success. They've done it themselves in their lives. They also know that the only way for blacks to achieve is for them to take responsibility, but to do that would not let them wash themselves of white guilt, nor continue their racist policies of not believing in the black community.

[–]gogowisco 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

cherry picking history

If you make a claim like that, you really should back it up with the examples i'm missing, and not, you know, nothing.

The fact is, you're cherry picking history, you ignore the obvious and invent this myth that blacks are poor because of the welfare state, and not because of policies that were, in fact, racist, and designed to keep blacks poor (nuts how that works, huh). I'm not arguing that our welfare state is well designed, or that it produces beneficial incentives for blacks, i think it needs to be heavily re-worked, but to suggest that's why blacks live in the ghetto and go to terrible schools is just silly if you honestly look at our history.

Look, you cant actually dispute any of my points, all you can do just dumb them down and claim "(there is A LOT on both sides for each point)" which is about as big an intellectual cop-out as there is.

Moreover, my point isn't that blacks shouldn't be held accountable for their actions, it's that they've been given a unfair shot thanks to laws enacted by big (and formerly, overtly racist) gov't - and this has much more to do with the policies before LBJ, than any of the policies that tried to remedy the situation in the '60's onward.

Listen, i'm not arguing for the democrats or liberals in general - i think they have, in fact, used blacks politically and have offered them very little to make the situation better. However conservatives have been downright antagonistic towards blacks, so it's hard to see how the black community would ever change their allegiance.

Taking responsibility is the key to success

Not really, it seems nowadays being born rich (6 of the 10 richest Americans inherited their money - source) is actually the key to success, besides that going to good schools (which blacks are generally denied - see another comment i posted ITT) is the back-up key to success, and definitely, having access to well paying jobs is the last key to success (yet blacks are excluded from that as well - remember immigrants in the early 20th century didnt go to school either, but there were plenty of factory jobs that gave them a living wage and allowed them to send their kids to good schools - however these jobs that were a key part of social mobility no longer exist).

You complain that blacks don't take responsibility, but given their schools, job prospects, broken homes, and the fact that black parents have much less money to send their kids to good schools, or summer camps, or extra-curriculars, etc. and all the other things that help white kids become well-rounded adults, it just seems unfair to expect them magically 'take responsibility' and compete at the same level, or develop the same work-ethic as people who live in a completely different world.

Accept that we need to fix the mistakes of the past (this includes both pre and post welfare state policies) and give blacks a fair shot by passing laws that incentivises hard work, fixes the still unequal schools, starts tackling unemployment, and i guarantee you'll see a change in culture. Keep things the same and you'll see more of the same. It's as simple as that.

[–]Loveflu 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I believe I said I took what you said at face value, and argued from a continuation from that point. No one will argue that the history to blacks in America has not been kind and in the case of government intervention, helpful at all.

Not really, it seems nowadays being born rich (6 of the 10 richest Americans inherited their money - source) is actually the key to success, besides that going to good schools (which blacks are generally denied - see another comment i posted ITT) is the back-up key to success, and definitely, having access to well paying jobs is the last key to success

The 10 richest Americans have nothing to do with success. Success is providing for you and your family without government assistance and staying out of prison.

yet blacks are excluded from that as well - remember immigrants in the early 20th century didnt go to school either, but there were plenty of factory jobs that gave them a living wage and allowed them to send their kids to good schools - however these jobs that were a key part of social mobility no longer exist

Let's go back to cherry picking again. You are literally going back to anytime in history to pick a wrong and making it an excuse for the present.

You complain that blacks don't take responsibility, but given their schools, job prospects, broken homes, and the fact that black parents have much less money to send their kids to good schools, or summer camps, or extra-curriculars, etc. and all the other things that help white kids become well-rounded adults, it just seems unfair to expect them magically 'take responsibility' and compete at the same level, or develop the same work-ethic as people who live in a completely different world.

Blacks need to take responsibility for their broken homes. No one else can do that for them. It is without a doubt the key to enabling them to have a solid footing at an early age. If blacks do not take responsibility for them, then NO ONE will. The liberals do not care about making the black community a successful one. They only want to keep them on the government dole. They only want to fan the flames of injustice to keep them angry about being on the government dole. No matter where you come from in life, if you don't take responsibility for yourself then you are doomed to failure. Excuses destroy the human spirit.

Accept that we need to fix the mistakes of the past (this includes both pre and post welfare state policies) and give blacks a fair shot by passing laws that incentivises hard work, fixes the still unequal schools, starts tackling unemployment, and i guarantee you'll see a change in culture. Keep things the same and you'll see more of the same. It's as simple as that.

Depending on what you mean by these policies I agree. But no matter what you do, if you make an excuse for someone they will never succeed. If someone always has an excuse for their failures, they will never succeed. This is the point that liberals hate to secede. They know they wouldn't be successful in their endeavors without it.

[–]JustWanderfulLibertarian Conservative -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're full of shit...and wrong.

[–]gangrenous_ghoulpaleocon -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good points. I definitely think you are on to something. I don't think any of this has anything to do with why black crime rates are the way they are today though. With affirmative action, welfare, government job assistance, rent controlled housing and the lot there is really no excuse that holds water to me to explain why it's been 200+ years since slavery ended, 60+ years since we got rid of Jim Crow, BUT blacks still have far higher crime rates, single parent home rates, unemployment rates, etc.