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This girl! (i.imgur.com)

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[–]iki-iri 525 ポイント526 ポイント  (26子コメント)

Kids don't care for gender when they're that small, they only care if adults tell them to.

[–]Bunyipo -13 ポイント-12 ポイント  (25子コメント)

Incorrect. 4 year old daughter has not wanted to play with boys the moment she realized she was a girl when she was 2 years old. She's also developed her own stereotypes about what girls can or can't do and what boys can or can't do despite our efforts. I'm starting to thinking classification/stereotyping is just human nature and a part of how we learn.

EDIT: Interesting that this statement seems to be hitting a lot of peoples nerves.

[–]PixyFreakingSticks 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (22子コメント)

Partially, but unless you've kept her away from media her whole life, even at the age of two, kids pick up on that. That kind of thing has a profound impact on a developing child.

[–]LemsipMax 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (5子コメント)

This is often forgotten. In this thread, even, parents saying 'no, because my child does x'. Right, well assuming your child has been raised in a double-blinded gender neutral imaginary play-cell then of course, your short-sighted anecdotal remark changes everything.

[–]PixyFreakingSticks 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

lol. This might be the most throwaway comment I've ever made, but I'll say it anyway; you could not have put it any better than that.

[–]memtiger -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

But just because his anecdote doesn't follow your opinion on how kids develop, we should throw it away as "whatever you're probably wrong"?

[–]LemsipMax 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Try to understand why Bunyipo's anecdote, brought to the table as evidence, is so critically flawed. I did outline it (as did PixyFreakingSticks before me) but if you're not familiar with the fundamentals of a well design scientific study then it might not have made much sense.

But essentially the claim being made is that we're born with in-built gender stereotypes (perhaps they are genetic?). And the counter-claim is that those stereotypes are a result of our upbringing (we/the media/other people teach them to the children).

Bunyipo was telling us of their child, already exhibiting stereotypical behaviour, as if it proved that stereotypes were built it. PixyFreakingSticks and I were explaining that this child has already been raised somewhat, therefore if gender stereotypes are taught, not built in, there would have been plenty of time for that teaching to occur.

I'm not even asserting a counter-opinion here, just showing that the evidence is worthless in this discussion. This discussion on r/funny. Where all the best science happens.

[–]memtiger 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

If you think it's impossible to have a case where a child can't be observed without outside influences (which i can somewhat agree with to a certain degree) then there isn't a sufficient enough dataset (aka none) to assume that kids categorically do OR don't form their own sexual differences.

[–]LemsipMax 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed, useful observational evidence is going to be pretty light on the ground here.

If this was my area of study, and I was a scientist, I'd be looking at cultural groups with different biases and I'd be attempting to demonstrate that the apparently-innate stereotypes track the societal stereotypes regardless of the genetic heritage of the subject. And I may, of course, be proved wrong.

[–]krankz 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Also kids even at that age have personalities. Some kids will be okay with not conforming to their sex while other's have more anxiety about not fitting that norm. They might be developing still, but they already have their own personal characteristics.

[–]Bunyipo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (14子コメント)

We don't watch TV with ads. Only things she's watched are kid shows like Barney, Word World, Sesame Street, etc...which have been pretty good about not being explicit about stereotypes. She's really good at picking up patterns and applying it to other things. That's where it comes from.

[–]PixyFreakingSticks 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (13子コメント)

We don't watch TV with ads.

I'm not a parent, but I can guarantee that your child has consumed a fuck ton of advertising by age 2. It's everywhere. Have you ever taken her to a toy store? Have you been to the "girl's section"?

Only things she's watched are kid shows like Barney, Word World, Sesame Street, etc..

I say this not to be condescending, and I understand if you don't want to take this seriously, but most "stereotypes" (I'm not sure that's the right word for what we're discussing) about gender go totally unnoticed. We accept that men and women, boys and girls, are just different, and we watch girls acting like girls and boys acting like boys and understand that to be just the way things are.

All the available research indicates that little boys and little girls are a lot more similar than they are different, and most of what shapes them is culture. TV is part of that, but even if you consume a lot of TV, there's just so much more than that, and it's all shaping the way your little girl behaves.

edit: I should point out that the research in this field currently sucks, due to the very understandable ethical considerations of raising children in laboratories. Still, what research is available largely backs my claim.

Society is telling her in subtle ways what it means to be a girl. Whether or not that's why she doesn't like boys is another matter.

I say this not to question your parenting, but rather your understanding of the impact of culture.

She's really good at picking up patterns and applying it to other things.

Where do you think those "patterns" come from?

[–]Bunyipo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Where do you think those "patterns" come from?

That's my point. There isn't an adult telling them directly what to think. They pick up on the patterns from what they see.

I think people are underestimating the differences between boys and girls. I also have a son who is your stereotype of boy even at 1. He inherited everything his older sister used to play with. She would be gentle with everything and it would be in perfect condition after 3 years with her only to be destroyed within seconds of giving it to him.

I'm pretty certain people who have the notion that boys and girls are the same either have never had kids or have never raised both.

[–]PixyFreakingSticks 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

There isn't an adult telling them directly what to think.

Nobody was making this claim, as far as I can tell.

I'm pretty certain people who have the notion that boys and girls are the same either have never had kids or have never raised both.

Scientists. There are plenty of rambunctious children, by the way. To say that you have a rowdy boy and a demure daughter, so I'm wrong, is kind of silly, even if I am wrong.

Also. Your 1 year old boy has consumed a fuck ton of media too, and media really, really reinforces gender roles. Also, I was a rough-ass little baby, and I'm a girl.

Is that anecdote sufficient to change your mind? No? Surely you see my dilemma.

[–]Bunyipo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Also. Your 1 year old boy has consumed a fuck ton of media too

There you go assuming again. We turned off everything when our son was born. We were purely Netflix before, but nothing for the kids til just recently when we felt our son would benefit from some of the kids shows.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that there are differences between the genders that go beyond genitals?

For example, our daughter started talking at 1 and reading at 2 and most of the girls within our parent groups had earlier development in communication than the boys. Talk to any parent or pediatrician and they will consistently tell you that girls "generally" develop communication a lot earlier than boys. It's normal for a boy to not even develop speech until they are 3.

[–]PixyFreakingSticks 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

There you go assuming again.

There's literally nothing you can do to stop it aside from locking the kid in the basement.

[–]Bunyipo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

As an engineer, I'm trying my hardest to steer my daughter into a STEM field. I spend hours a day playing Lego, memory games, puzzles etc with her to develop those skills. I really really want to believe what I'm doing is going to have some influence down the road, even if it doesn't show now. At 4 she's already demonstrating talent in math and reading but left to her own devices she has a tendency to gravitate towards stereotypical "girl" toys.

The boy is just pure destruction right now with the attention span of a dog in cage with squirrels. Is it possible that this "destructive play" is his way of learning cause and effect and reverse engineering? Possible. He is definitely developing a very good working knowledge of how to destroy things in the most efficient way possible.

[–]RubyPinch 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

the claim was made at the top-level comment

Kids don't care for gender when they're that small, they only care if adults tell them to.

[–]EBWasLeftOut 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Kids are gender detectives for a phase. They want to know who's who and what they can do, even if it's based on extremely limited evidence, e.g. they see one boy with a green helmet, therefore green helmets are for boys.

But your responses have an effect in the long term. If you say, "Actually, boys can wear any color helmet, and so can girls," they will try to find a rule at the time, but your egalitarian answers will sink in eventually.

Source: Martin Seligman's books, especially What You Can Change, and What You Can't

[–]BattleGirl1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reminds me of that:

http://imgur.com/AT2Ak