あなたは単独のコメントのスレッドを見ています。

残りのコメントをみる →

[–]BizarroKamajii 50 ポイント51 ポイント  (26子コメント)

Women also struggle with basically the same conflicting guidance about dating as men do, as well as the accompanying shame. We just use different words.

A man who shows too much interest is a creep. A woman who shows too much interest is a slut. (The quiet, underlying attitude here being that men are dangerous and women are the keepers of the precious sex. Personally I think we all need to cut that shit out.)

[–]see_you_soon 36 ポイント37 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What about the girlz!

The OP's comments about women not being able to understand a man's point of view is neatly illustrated in this top rated comment post. It's quite apparent that some women (many) just don't get it! She, like many other women, are just totally blind to the dilemma which now faces men.

The issue is not that a man who shows "too much interest" is a creep. The issue is that society is being bombarded by the message that virtually ALL men are creeps and that ALL (or virtually all) women are being victimized by men. We are literally being told that we men need to learn to not rape women. We are told that we need to learn to respect women. We are told that we need to reign in our compulsive urges because they are offensive to women. We men, apparently, are too brutish, stupid and ignorant to understand these things or to have learned them when we were children and; therefore, it must be hammered into our heads, over and over again.

As a man who has never raped, harassed, stalked, hit or abused a woman - I am deeply offended by these messages. I am deeply offended that the mere fact that I have a penis means that some among us think I need to be "educated" in the right way to treat a woman.

It is NOT the same thing as a woman being called a "slut" if she shows too much interest (which, personally, I have never observed). It is not the same thing as a woman being called a slut because she does sleep with a lot of men. It is not that we are judging men for their behavior (we have always done that) - the issue is that we are now prejudging men simply because they have a penis.

If I were a young single man, I too might feel the urge to turn my back on dating. I might just be content with the odd ONS and resolve myself to the suspicion that regardless of how hard I tried, I would never measure up to societies expectations because of what swung between my legs.

[–]BlooregardQKazoo -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

if i were a young single man i wouldn't internalize shit i read on the internet and i'd just live my life, and since i wouldn't live my life as a creep i wouldn't feel like one.

you're seeking out a message and then letting it affect the way you live. that's your problem, not society's.

if the message you're getting is that you're a creep either 1) you are a creep or 2) you need to change where you're getting your messages from.

[–]see_you_soon 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

and since i wouldn't live my life as a creep i wouldn't feel like one.

I don't live my life as a creep, and I don't feel like a creep - and I suspect that 90%+ of men don't live their lives as creeps either - so why, pray tell, do so many people insist that we men are de facto creeps? And more importantly, why should we stand by and let this bigoted slander be perpetrated against us?

As I understand your position, only real creeps feel insulted by being called a creep. Bigoted gender propaganda just washes over decent men like water off a duck's back. Perhaps you should tell that to all the women out their who feel slut shamed and who suffer from poor body image because of all the slut shaming and fat shaming "media messages" which are perpetrated in our society. Obviously good and decent women would not be hurt by these things, only "bad" women would be upset about being slut shamed or fat shamed.

Right?

As I understand your argument - I should just man up and shut up. Is that about it?

[–]probably_quite_drunk 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

you're seeking out a message and then letting it affect the way you live. that's your problem, not society's.

Now tell that to every woman shouting "The Patriarchy did it!"

Also, your following statement gender-flipped would be cause for a full-on riot. Thusly: if the message you're getting is that you're a slut either 1) you are a slut or 2) you need to change where you're getting your messages from.

[–]IAMATruckerAMA 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (20子コメント)

Women are encouraged to talk to each other about dating. Men are discouraged from it.

[–]potato1 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (19子コメント)

How are men discouraged from talking to one another? My friends and I talk about dating and relationships all the time, and did when we were teenagers too.

[–]IAMATruckerAMA 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (12子コメント)

When a man discusses being dumped or getting shot down, he's stereotypically labeled a failure.

[–]kayvoon 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. I actually exclusively talk to my female friends about this subject since they wont laugh at my and crack jokes, they're more understanding about it.

[–]potato1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

When you say "stereotypically," are you talking about depictions in media or what you believe actually happens to most men in their real lives? Is this labeling done by other men? Have you experienced it? Because I haven't, my friends have always been supportive of each other.

[–]IAMATruckerAMA 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think that there is a pervasive fear or discomfort of/from this in men's real lives that often keeps them from discussing social failures with one another.

[–]potato1 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's sad, and if that's your experience I'm sorry to hear that you're dealing with that, but it doesn't describe my experience. I've had "friends" when I was younger who were really more like adversaries when I look back on our relationship, but at this point the only guys I'd call friends are guys I'm comfortable with having real conversations about this stuff with. So from my perspective, it sounds like what you're describing is more a product of immaturity than masculinity.

[–]see_you_soon 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I think men are generally quite supportive of each other. People in general are supportive, if they know each other. But I do think that there is a very real difference between how men are treated when they express their feelings and how women are treated when they express their feelings. Men are very likely to be denigrated and ridiculed if they don't express their feelings in the "correct" (i.e. stoic) way.

If you don't believe me, then I urge you to post a comment in one of the subs (or right here) and express your frustration and bitterness about being too unattractive to get a girlfriend. See for yourself. Better yet, try that in r/askwomen or 2X and see what happens. Then you will get a clearer image of just what society thinks of men expressing their feelings in other than a stoic and good humored way.

[–]professor__doom 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly. A man needs a Rodney Dangerfield level of self-deprecating humor to broach the subject of being unsuccessful with women. You cannot discuss it seriously, or you're a whiny girly-boy. "Do you sit down to pee, too?"

[–]potato1 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think men are generally quite supportive of each other. People in general are supportive, if they know each other. But I do think that there is a very real difference between how men are treated when they express their feelings and how women are treated when they express their feelings. Men are very likely to be denigrated and ridiculed if they don't express their feelings in the "correct" (i.e. stoic) way.

If you don't believe me, then I urge you to post a comment in one of the subs (or right here) and express your frustration and bitterness about being too unattractive to get a girlfriend. See for yourself. Better yet, try that in r/askwomen or 2X and see what happens. Then you will get a clearer image of just what society thinks of men expressing their feelings in other than a stoic and good humored way.

What you're describing isn't how people are treated by their friends who actually know them, it's how people are treated by anonymous strangers on the internet. I agree with what you're saying, but you're not describing the same thing I am.

[–]BlooregardQKazoo -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

i think you've hit the nail on the head here. i think the person you're responding to is sharing their perception of the lack of support that men get.

'men don't talk to each other' is up there with 'college professors are mean' on my list of things that Hollywood tells us are true but life experience tells me otherwise. when a close friend recently split with his fiancee he and i played video games and shot the shit, just like normal, for the first couple hours we saw each other. but then, when he was ready, we talked about it. and we've continued to talk about it when something new comes up or when he's particularly struggling with it.

i can't help but wonder how many of these men who struggle with relationships with women also do so with men. they could lack other men to talk to but that's part of their larger problem, not a problem with society.

[–]Dr_Avocado 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Your anecdote isn't really a counterpoint.

[–]potato1 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

If my personal anecdote isn't a counterpoint, then the original unsupported bare assertion that "men are discouraged from [talking to each other about dating]" wasn't a point that needs to be countered.

[–]Dr_Avocado 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

He didn't make an absolute statement saying all men don't talk to one another. So your anecdote that you do talk to your male friends about relationships isn't a counterpoint because he only said men are discourages. Pretty simple logic.

[–]potato1 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I didn't think he was making an imperative statement that no men talk to one another about dating. I was interested in getting a conversation started with him about his opinions regarding the scope of the problem and its causes and solutions, not in making scientific claims. So your statement that my personal anecdote isn't a "counterpoint" is correct, but irrelevant to my purpose in participating. My goal wasn't to counter an argument, but to compare experiences.

[–]Dr_Avocado 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Look at your first sentence.

>How are men discouraged from talking to one another?

Definitely looks like you thought you were giving a counterpoint. Nice try though.

Not to mention in your first response to me you were defending your statement as a counterpoint.

I'm glad that you accepted you were wrong but don't try to pretend you didn't intend your first comment as a counterpoint to his assertion.

[–]potato1 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Clearly you perceived my comment in a way in which it was not intended. I am sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I don't know what else to tell you.

[–]kayvoon 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

At the end of the day, when you're talking anything from tinder to the bar scene to match.com, women are selective while men take a shotgun approach.