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[–]Cricket620 -10 ポイント-9 ポイント  (24子コメント)

Dude have you ever seen a union headquarters? Nicest office buildings I've ever seen. Unions are hardly a bastion of corporate responsibility.

[–]filolif 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The ones around here are just the same as every other office building. Wasn't it fun swapping meaningless anecdotes?

[–]JonnyLay [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

There's two around here, very plain little office buildings.

[–]bushwhack227 [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

one near me, i think, i used to be a daycare ... non descript, low-rise, store-front office

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

Branch offices or HQs? I'm talking about headquarters, like the ones in DC.

[–]13104598210 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Dude have you ever seen a union headquarters? Nicest office buildings I've ever seen.

I'd encourage you to go to the headquarters of a corporation, a hedge fund, or an investment bank.

Here's the AFL-CIO HQ in D.C.

Here's Goldman Sachs's HQ.

[–]allnose [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

A corporation? So, someone who's incorporated their business? There's a range. I've seen really nice ones, and ones that do double duty as studio apartments.

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (6子コメント)

First of all, I live in DC and I've been inside multiple union HQs. The AFL-CIO is within spitting distance of the White House. The inside of that building is ridiculous. Showing me pictures of the outsides of buildings does nothing for your case if you're trying to say that unions are humble advocates for their employees. The IBEW's headquarters, for example, is a veritable palace.

Second, you're comparing a union (non-profit advocacy organization) to Goldman Sachs (very much for-profit investment bank). It's the falsest dichotomy I could imagine. Just because one is relatively nicer and more expensive than the other doesn't mean the other is justifiably humble. Union dues of thousands of hourly workers are paying for some of the nicest offices in DC. Union officials have cushy high-paying jobs, and many unions even have private jets, all funded by the paychecks of employees in industry. Tell me why union officials can't fly commercial while the people they're supposed to represent can't even afford a plane ticket.

[–]13104598210 [非表示スコア]  (5子コメント)

Look, you said union headquarters are the "Nicest office buildings I've ever seen". And I very easily pointed out that union hqs are shitholes compared to actual corporations.

You can have whatever moral issue with how unions treat their execs, but cut the bullshit.

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (4子コメント)

Fine, I exaggerated to make a point. Do you want to argue semantics or argue about the value of modern unions?

[–]13104598210 [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

I want to ensure this sub isn't dominated by polemical invective from ideologues.

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

Fair enough

[–]nakdamink [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

He has a point too.

I've been in both buildings. Afl is a fucking pig pen compared to GS or UBS

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

GS and UBS are profit-motivated companies. AFL-CIO, IBEW, etc. are not. Before encouraging young people to "go union", people should really consider what the value of modern unions is and how young people benefit from buying into them.

[–]JonnyLay [非表示スコア]  (10子コメント)

Do they have golden toilets like the gm executive building did?

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (9子コメント)

Dunno, but some unions have private jets so I wouldn't doubt it. I see no problem with GM, a profit-driven company, doing what they want to with their money. Wasting it on toilet seats instead of reinvesting into the company to increase share price and earnings seems like a good metaphor for stupid executives. But unions have a special way of fucking over the people who rely on them for representation. Nobody should rely on GM for representation.

[–]filolif [非表示スコア]  (5子コメント)

This guy apparently knows exactly what unions should and shouldn't have.

He is also certain that it's none of his business what corporations should or shouldn't have.

...

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (4子コメント)

I'm just saying that unions have eroded their own value lately because they've spent the dues they collect on fancy offices and private jets instead of advocating for the workers they're supposed to represent. For the average union worker, the return on union dues is negative. Union HQs are a symbol of this dysfunction. Of course they're free to do whatever they want with their revenue (assuming it has no legal constraints), but the original comment encouraging young people to "go union" is misguided. "Going union" won't help them claim higher wages.

[–]zoheirleet [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

well, that's not what we see in the real world.

http://www.leftfootforward.org/2014/07/strong-unions-won-you-your-rights-not-kind-hearted-rich-men/

http://www.epi.org/publication/ib342-unions-inequality-faltering-middle-class/

An union can be democratically controlled and regulated by its own members, I dont think you have that much power on your beloved corporation and its management hierarchy.

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

I see an article regarding unions in the UK and an article from a dubious source with a clear political agenda. In other words, one is irrelevant to the U.S. and the other comes from a source that has a vested interest in there being a black-and-white conflict between anti-union and pro-union opinions. Anti-union doesn't necessarily mean lower wages, and pro-union doesn't necessarily mean higher wages, despite the narrative that your second article is pushing. In the current situation, the unions are failing to effectively represent their constituents, and that's contributing to their stagnating wages while also taking money from constituents' pockets. If you ask me, that's worse than just giving up union membership altogether.

[–]zoheirleet [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

if you ask me, you didnt read any of these articles, didnt check the studies nor the references.

Might as well just ignore you I guess since you didnt present any solid argument unless fallacious ones.

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

So.... how is the one about unions in the UK relevant to the current discussion about American unions?

Also, the EPI article confuses causation and correlation in several instances, and makes claims not supported by evidence in the article. Great source there.

[–]JonnyLay [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

Some unions also have factories, and meetings all over the world. Some union's members also have private jets.

UAW union bosses(GM's main workers union) don't even make it into the top 100 paid union bosses in the world. The most extravagantly paid union bosses are in the sports world, or the cinema world, where high salaries are normal.

Many government union bosses live in Washington DC, where cost of living is huge.

Why do you think it's ok to criticize what a union does with it's money but not ok to criticize what a business does with it's money? At least the people vote on who they want to represent them. If they aren't happy with their union bosses they can vote to get rid of the union and start or join another.

[–]Cricket620 [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

I'm criticizing unions because the original comment said "go union or go home." Advising young people to join unions as a solution to their problems is not necessarily good advice. Unions are spending less money on advocacy and more money on toys and fancy offices for the union bosses.

Many government union bosses live in Washington DC, where cost of living is huge.

Many union HQs are in DC because that's where congress is. When it comes down to it, they're mostly lobbying firms. Also, since when does cost of living determine someone's salary? Surely as a contributor of /r/economics you know that an increase in cost of living does not cause salaries to increase any more than a rise in manufacturing costs causes a car's value to increase.

[–]JonnyLay [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

So, your saying people that live in places with higher costs of living don't on average get paid more?

People who live in places with a higher cost of living, demand a higher pay, and get it enough of the time to raise average pay significantly.

On average union members get paid more, and have better benefits. Can you name a union that doesn't do this for it's members?

When businesses are lobbying for Right to work laws, and other anti-labor laws for decades, Unions have to lobby to keep the same protections they've had since the Wagner act. Which is stripped year by year.