Legbeards v Neckbeards in trollx discussion of body hair (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
78 ups - 0 downs = 78 votes
295 comments submitted at 02:52:30 on Dec 2, 2014 by beardslap
Legbeards v Neckbeards in trollx discussion of body hair (np.reddit.com)
SubredditDrama
78 ups - 0 downs = 78 votes
295 comments submitted at 02:52:30 on Dec 2, 2014 by beardslap
Ah countering "body shaming" with "body shaming". This neckbeards/legbeards comes up often and I can no longer tell who is being serious. And let's be honest complaining about shaving standards for women and then insulting men over shaving standards has a tinge of hypocrisy.
more than a tinge. the fedora/neckbeard/m'lady thing is so beyond played out at this point. i don't like when someone calls me a feminazi or an sjw so it's not like i'm gonna do the same thing back.
this thread has made me realize that i'm sorta over-critical of how men groom their hair though (speaking as a man). i could give a flying fuck if a woman has leg/armpit hair but i still make fun of my friends if they have some scruff going and kinda look down on it. never on the internet, but regardless it's something for me to consider
It's just that it's a really easy way to win an argument the same way that punching a stranger from behind in the kidneys is an easy way to win a fight. "You're a fat/skinny/white/black/man/woman therefore you're wrong" is the sort of argumentative shortcut that makes it really easy to get assholes who agree with you* to not listen to someone and assert that any photo they post to prove they're not what you say they are is just shoop the wooped.
Calling them ugly just adds fuel to the fire, because then you can assert that any feeling they have is just them being sexually frustrated and sad about being unloveable. It feels stupid to point out that it's just namecalling to win because addressing someone's actual points is hard and takes thought and effort, but that's basically why lazy dicks in any fringey movement do it.
*not you specifically, the hypothetical ur-asshole that does this regularly
Serious question - Do you think a "neckbeard" is "a man with hair on his neck"?
Do you think that when someone calls someone else a "neckbeard" that they are trying to shame them for their grooming habits?
Because this thread and the linked one seemed packed with people committed to pretending they don't know what "neckbeard" means so they can play the victim of body shaming where none has taken place.
"I don't hate neckbeards, just neckbeard culture"
I don't have a problem with neckbeards, I just don't want one moving into my neighborhood.
You will find that strategically misunderstanding what people say only makes you look dumb.
"legbeard" has more to it than just its face value as well. But that aside my point is if your issue is with the ideology then argue against that insulting their appearence after they insulted yours does not acomplish anything.
Kinda. Legbeard is very specifically used for a certain kind of woman. You know, those loud opinionated feminist women. The ones men don't find attractive, which is apparently the worst thing to be if you're a woman.
Whereas, neckbeard is used for a certain kind of man. A creepy, socially-awkward man who has put his idea of "woman" on so high a pedestal that no living person can even begin to measure up.
So, legbeard is criticizing a woman for being opinionated, breaking beauty norms, and being a feminist. Use of neckbeard is criticizing a man (usually) for breaking beauty norms, being creepy, awkward, or a sexist asshole.
Funny thing, that. Being a sexist asshole is actually worth the criticism. Whereas, being a feminist... really isn't. Of course, criticizing people for breaking beauty norms is kind of a shitty thing to do, but it's usually obvious in context what someone is doing. If it isn't, it's probably best for everyone to refrain from calling people legbeards and neckbeards, and say what they really mean.
Not that I take people seriously if they call me a bitch rather than a legbeard, but I appreciate the semantic accuracy.
Lol, those are some pretty skewed interpretations of how those words are used.
> Legbeard is very specifically used for a certain kind of woman. You know, those loud opinionated feminist women. The ones men don't find attractive, which is apparently the worst thing to be if you're a woman.
I actually think it denotes denotes the extremist, overly zealous women who throw the baby out with the bathwater by deciding that the myriad of legitimate problems women face in society grant them a pass to insult whoever they want and cast their own stereotypes in response. It's the same kind of extremism that leads to the terrible behavior coming from one side of the spectrum to futilely counter the same brand of behavior that has long come from the other side, the behavior that reasonable individuals shake their head at. Now, "legbeard" is still name calling, image shaming, and completely inappropriate and counter-productive, but I'm trying to capture the sentiment that people who use the term might be trying to express, not justify its use.
Actual feminists, you know, the ones concerned with correcting existent societal problems instead of just screaming into the wind to exercise catharsis, tend not to spew insults in response to terrible behavior exhibited by their detractors. That's not to say that those who engage in the latter behavior do not also engage in the former, but the latter does little to nothing to progress the former. Pretending otherwise is just ignorant and self-serving.
Then again, you're probably going to just accuse me of tone policing in response to this message instead of addressing the growing trend of participation driven by a desire for retribution rather than actual change. The kind of trend that has allowed for the feminist movement to be commercialized and compartmentalized by corporate interests. Instead of addressing deeply held social practices and conceptions that still plague society through organized civil disobedience, today's feminism is more about wearing a shirt that says "Girl Power" and screaming at men. Believe it or not, this isn't going to do fuck all to progress women's issues because this doesn't disrupt the system.
> Instead of addressing deeply held social practices and conceptions that still plague society through organized civil disobedience, today's feminism is about wearing a shirt that says "Girl Power" and screaming at men.
Yeah, if your exposure to feminism is 100% from reddit and tumblr, I can see where you'd get that mistaken idea.
As to the rest of your post, the usage of "legbeard" in this instance is pretty clearly towards a woman with hair on her legs and the women who think it's not unacceptable for it to be there. I wouldn't call that "overly zealous," but okay.
> Yeah, if your exposure to feminism is 100% from reddit and tumblr, I can see where you'd get that mistaken idea.
Reddit and Tumblr are the windows through which younger generations view the world, and right now young men and women are witnessing the social movement as a screaming match instead of a united struggle against established societal norms. This is what worries me about the kind of "discussion" I see happening on this site and others.
> As to the rest of your post, the usage of "legbeard" in this instance is pretty clearly towards a woman with hair on her legs and the women who think it's not unacceptable for it to be there.
First of all, I didn't call the act of "thinking it's not unacceptable for hair to be on women's legs" overzealous. Don't put words in my mouth, because I explicitly outlined the mode of thinking that I thought was overzealous in the numerous sentences that followed.
The usage of "neckbeard" in most of these instances is pretty clearly toward the demographic as a whole and not just toward the behavior. I often see the use of the term coupled with derisive references of Steam sales and PC gaming, among other things. Saying that the term "neckbeard" is exclusively used for shit behavior is disingenuous and a cop-out.
> Reddit and Tumblr are the windows through which younger generations view the world, and right now young men and women are witnessing the social movement as a screaming match instead of a united struggle against established societal norms. This is what worries me
It worries me too, but I'm not exactly in the habit of blaming academics and activists for refraining from making social media accounts and rolling around in the dirt with trolls. It's a recipe for a PR disaster, particularly if they're actually affiliated with a legitimate organization. I've gotten on the wrong side of activists before -- liberal activists -- and it's negatively affected my actual career until they lost interest. I worked for an extremely liberal small business at the time and regularly volunteered at Planned Parenthood, along with holding membership to my college's Young Democrats and a woman's academic affiliated fraternity, and you think that would make someone immune to criticism from the left. Sadly, no. And this was criticism I got in real life. Why would anyone who takes themselves and their cause seriously open themselves to volleys from the opposite side, let alone all the ugliness the internet has to offer?
Face it: the war over the internet is won by whomever has the most cause to want to win it. So those whose ideas gain no traction in real life will fight viciously to maintain their presence here. Which is why Stormfront has successfully astroturfed /r/news and /r/videos, and how tumblr SJWs got so popular. Let alone the decades of conspiracy usenet boards that grew into the cesspit that is /r/conspiracy today.
You'll never meet a more wretched hive of fringe stupidity than in an unmoderated social media platform. So why do activists and academics not give a toss about what those platforms think of them? Simply, because they don't have the time. It accomplishes far more to petition a local city councilmember for donations for a new homeless shelter than it does to spend two days having a shouting match on reddit about how not all poor people are terrible and stupid and deserve their misfortune.
>Saying that the term "neckbeard" is exclusively used for shit behavior is disingenuous and a cop-out.
I never said exclusively, I said in this particular context they're very clearly using it as a term to criticize the sexist presumption that there's something wrong with women that don't shave their legs. I wouldn't agree with its usage to body shame or criticize a hobby I enjoy myself, and I don't have the slightest idea where you got that impression, since I said so very clearly in my initial post that context is key.
>Being a sexist asshole is actually worth the criticism. Whereas, being a feminist... really isn't.
Unless, of course, your hypothetical feminist is a sexist asshole.
Well, yes, that's a given.
> You know, those loud opinionated feminist women. The ones men don't find attractive, which is apparently the worst thing to be if you're a woman.
Remember, kids! If you're ugly, hairy, and fat, but still feel entitled to romantic attention from the opposite sex, what does this make you?
Answer: Feminist if you're a woman. Sexist if you're a man.
It's not a double standard because patriarchy!
That's an awful lot of things I didn't say, but thanks, I guess.
> Funny thing, that. Being a sexist asshole is actually worth the criticism. Whereas, being a feminist... really isn't
Being a feminist in and of itself isn't worthy of criticism, but there are beliefs under the umbrella of feminism that are worthy of criticism. Same goes for being a neckbeard.
You have to think everyone is very naïve if you want us to believe that "it's about the neckbeard in their hearts" when it just-so-happens that everyone featured in /r/justneckbeardthings fit a certain physical stereotype of nerd/socially-inept man.
Do they all have hair on their necks, and if so are they being made fun of for having hair on their necks or something else?
Do you think that "skinhead" insults a person for being bald, or for being a white supremacist?
Do you think by framing your constant questions in a biased manner will get you the response you so clearly crave?
Can you answer my questions without exposing your complete lack of coherent understanding of the terms? Because that's my point.
I wasn't even the person you were harassing, so no, I wont give you the (wrong) answer you're looking for. Screaming that nobody understands hasn't worked for you thus far, and it won't now. You and E Pluribus Shithead are wrong on this one.
It doesn't "work" when I get agreement or up votes, but thanks for putting this in the proper context of me harassing people, lol.
I feel like most of you will eventually realize that you were arguing on the wrong side of this one. Google neckbeard and tell me what images you see. Are you still going to argue that the term has no basis on physical appearance?
The neckbeard (hair style) is popular among nerdy, chubby male teens and twenty-somethings who think it makes them look mature and maybe obscures their double chins. Such men are known for holding certain ideas and eagerly sharing them on the Internet, such as how unfair it is that women won't fuck them and how important video games are.
That's where it came from, but like "skinhead" the term has changed to describe the set of beliefs held by people who often wear that hairstyle moreso than the hairstyle itself.
Do you seriously think that men with beards are a maligned or oppressed class of people? Do you think "skinhead" is an insult to bald people?
> Do you seriously think that men with beards are a maligned or oppressed class of people?
This is irrelevant. Why would a group need to be oppressed for it to be wrong to mock them?
The rest of what you said actually seems to support the argument that it's a body shaming term. That should be enough for people not to use it.
Having a shaved head was actually part of skinheads identity. It's not really comparable to neckbeard, which is just the result of low social awareness or bad fashion sense.
It's more comparable to the term hamplanet. The fat hate movement would argue that it refers to a state of mind, but it's clearly deragatory to fat people. I could never justify using the term. Neckbeard is no different.
You're never going to get it.
I'm never going to agree. That's true. I get the excuses for using the term. I just think they're shitty excuses. Why even use the term when you know people consider it offensive? Just pick a different word. Is it really that hard?
Generic insults do not tend to fit situations perfectly. They still are based in something. If I call someone a whore then that insult is still based in their sexual behaviour, if I call someone a bimbo then that insult is still based on the appearance. Even if I am criticising someone for something else, It still is highly hypocritical to apply an appearance insult to someone because they have an issue with appearance.
Nerdy looking males with fedoras and poorly groomed beards have been under criticism for ages now. And if the idea of that subreddit's users is true and everyone can dress how they want, then they really shouldn't attack someone with an appearance based insult.
There ya go. Nerdy looking males known for dressing a certain way and holding certain opinions.
Not men with hair on their necks, for having hair on their necks.
Therefor not body shaming, and not analogous to attacking women for not shaving their legs.
Remember the linked thread isn't "neckbeards vs legbeards", it's "neckbeards vs a picture of a woman's hairy legs, and by extension the idea of women not shaving their legs". That distinction is important.
It's still the same amount of shaming that someone calling a woman a trashy looking whore is shaming. At the same time while neckbeards have certain connotations that simply go beyond simply having a neck beard, there are also plenty of connotations that go beyond simply an unshaven woman. That doesn't disprove anything the previous guy said.
> Nerdy looking males known for dressing a certain way and holding certain opinions.
There you go, hairy legged women known for being generally disgusting and having opinions I don't like. Are you too stupid to see how you can spin this any direction?
Oh, so you agree that, like "neckbeard", "legbeard" does not simply refer to the hair a person may have on their legs. Wonderful!
Yes, just like how nigger only applies to the blacks I disagree with. Haven't we heard that one before.
Just looking at the subreddits about neckbeards, we can clearly see their opinions in all those pictures clearly defined.
And is that opinion that "neckbeards" are, exclusively and specifically, men with hair on their necks?
Because that's all I've been talking about.
Right, and 'faggot' only means "something I don't like". Please stop using the term 'neckbeard'.
Faggot? You mean a bundle of sticks, right? Since only literal meanings real?
It's funny that you guys are determined to make me out to be a hater when all I want is for you to acknowledge the meaning of words. Semantics all the way down.
I admire your perseverance to go down fighting. Never give up the ship!
I agree, but it's really obvious in context that they're not criticizing someone's appearance, they're criticizing their attitude.
Kind of like how "legbeard" is now a term for a woman who has an opinion you don't agree with.
Maybe, but you you wouldn't go on to call someone you accuse of slut shaming a whore/prostitute/slut and so on. It's just absurd to go onto saying, NO I didn't mean it like it sounds, but different. This is the not all blacks are niggers nonsense all over again.
It's amazing that you've found a way to defend the term neckbeard while also demonizing the term legbeard, which is literally meant to be the female equivalent of neckbeard.
> a tinge of hypocrisy.
Its hypocrisy in its purest, rawest form.
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What's so wrong about saying something is unattractive? Neckbeards on guys and hairy legs on girls just are unattractive. That's not shaming anyone, its just the way things are. That may change over time, but at the moment it isn't. Deal with it.
There is more to the terms then just attractiveness, I mention as much in another reply. But what my original post and what most of the linked post (at least at the time of my writing) is insulting someone's look because they insulted your's first is hypocritical especially when both insults are based on standards of shaving and what ever preconceived notions go with them.
Oh yeah it's definitely rude both ways. There's really no need for the insults.